Kelly Kooper wrote:
Hmm....pity he's gone because I saw this post a few days ago and have been wanting to come back and address it. I wanted to post to him directly about how graphic and unimaginative his nude photos were for someone who was so ''conservative''. Looking at the pics, I got the impression it was more about people seeing him nude than an actual love of the art world and the role nudity plays in it. I suspect it was more about him living out a sexual fantasy, than someone with a genuine passion for this industry.

I could be wrong. But I don't think so. Photos always speak louder than words.

I have to say that I agree with you.  He said he posed for art classes and maybe he has, but the images in his port did not live up to that.  Since we live about 10 miles away I had offered to shoot art nudes with him.  ( Yes I shoot Art nudes with males and I love doing so)  He said he would contact me but then never really did.

He did PM maybe a day before he left saying that he was really just looking to shoot with a female model.  There is nothing wrong with that but I think in many of these cases male models come off a being creepy when their only goal is to shoot nudes with female models.

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Does anyone suspect a different nature to the OP ?

I literally just posted about that two posts ago. I wish we'd called him on it while he was here. There are some lovely, good-natured people in this post that took him at his word, despite appearances to the contrary. Con men are everywhere I guess....glad he's gone now.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

I have to say that I agree with you.  He said he posed for art classes and maybe he has, but the images in his port did not live up to that.  Since we live about 10 miles away I had offered to shoot art nudes with him.  ( Yes I shoot Art nudes with males and I love doing so)  He said he would contact me but then never really did.

He did PM maybe a day before he left saying that he was really just looking to shoot with a female model.  There is nothing wrong with that but I think in many of these cases male models come off a being creepy when their only goal is to shoot nudes with female models.

None of that surprises me. It seemed pretty obvious when looking at his images that he had no talent to speak of - from a physical perspective or any genuine model ability. Perhaps he thought it'd be a good way to meet girls. Who knows how these losers think?

Kelly Kooper wrote:

I literally just posted about that two posts ago. I wish we'd called him on it while he was here. There are some lovely, good-natured people in this post that took him at his word, despite appearances to the contrary. Con men are everywhere I guess....glad he's gone now.

...No not that nature
A Clare Hesse nature

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:

...No not that nature
A Clare Hesse nature

I think that's unlikely but of course we'll never know for sure.

It's more likely that the 15-16 crap photos of a nude male were him for one of the reasons I stated......but hey, I wouldn't put money on it.

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Does anyone suspect a different nature to the OP ?

Kelly Kooper wrote:
Hmm....pity he's gone because I saw this post a few days ago and have been wanting to come back and address it. I wanted to post to him directly about how graphic and unimaginative his nude photos were for someone who was so ''conservative''. Looking at the pics, I got the impression it was more about people seeing him nude than an actual love of the art world and the role nudity plays in it. I suspect it was more about him living out a sexual fantasy, than someone with a genuine passion for this industry.

I could be wrong. But I don't think so. Photos always speak louder than words.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
I have to say that I agree with you.  He said he posed for art classes and maybe he has, but the images in his port did not live up to that.  Since we live about 10 miles away I had offered to shoot art nudes with him.  ( Yes I shoot Art nudes with males and I love doing so)  He said he would contact me but then never really did.

He did PM maybe a day before he left saying that he was really just looking to shoot with a female model.  There is nothing wrong with that but I think in many of these cases male models come off a being creepy when their only goal is to shoot nudes with female models.

This is so difficult to decide.  I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially beginners. When I first started out modelling 30 years ago, I had several people who had been involved in modelling, as well as artists, art directors, and photographers who were always willing to offer advice, suggestions, and warnings.

One thing that I was told is that female models are usually going to fall into one of two categories.  Either a female model is interested in the art and wants to be a part of creating art and accepts the fact that being naked is part of the job, or she is someone who doesn't really have a serious interest in the art but is comfortable with being naked which makes her willing to be naked in a safe and appropriate situation such as an art class or photo shoot for the money involved.  The artists and photographers have no issues with either type of female model and all is good. There are not many female models who are exhibitionists although there are a few, but they know how to behave appropriately and those they work with may not even realize that fact unless the model herself admits it to them.

For male models that distinction isn't so clear and several people told me they had very negative experiences with beginner male models that turned out to be exhibitionists rather than having any serious interest in modelling. They were using the modelling opportunities as safe places to be naked in the presence of other people for extended periods of time. Some of them could model well enough to be able to convince those they were posing for that all was good, and they were just nervous beginners, and learned what they needed to do to be accepted as a model.  Later on their skills improved and they were able to continue modelling with no issues because they realized that in order for those they were working with to give them permission to be naked as a model, they needed to behave themselves appropriately at all times. Others were asked to leave and not offered any further modelling assignments by that person or group after the first or second assignment because of inappropriate comments or actions. 

When I asked, I was told they never had those issues with any female models.  I believe that it's possible for a male who is an exhibitionist to become a model and succeed if they are able to control their behavior both while they are naked, and at all other times when communicating with those they are working with and this includes when they are away from the modelling venue.

Because of that, some art directors particularly at colleges prefer to hire current or former students as art models since there are less chances of someone trying to behave inappropriately if their status with the school could be in jeopardy.

I was warned that some male models try to contact female models with a request to pose together, when their intentions were more along the lines of wanting to be naked together because modelling could be seen as a situation where it would be OK for them to be naked alongside a female. I'm sure that many female models have been talked into this situation not knowing or realizing what the intentions of the male model were.

The photos we are discussing were definitely quite amateurish, both in the poses presented and in the photography, but the OP stated they weren't good quality and not professionally done.  I am 100% willing to give him and the photographer a pass on the quality of the poses and photos for a beginner.  It takes time to learn how to do more artistic or different styles than just standing or sitting there in various positions which may have been random and not done on purpose. The bottom line is that we don't know.  If you have an amateur taking photos of a friend who is also inexperienced as a model, anything is possible. The problem is that if you are photographing a naked male, things are visible. It's not easy to decide whether a pose clearly showing a male's genitals was done to express an artistic viewpoint, or whether it was intended merely to expose him to anyone viewing the photos. Shots done from the front or sides are usually clearly going to include those body parts, which are not nearly so obvious when a female does similar poses.

So you have to try to figure out if there was any intention to make those photos erotic, or to feature that area of the body in a non-artistic way that some people would associate with being an exhibitionist, or if it just turned out that way due to lack of experience.

It's possible that something we said convinced him that he needs to do things differently.  The only real red flag I can see is declining the offer of a very reputable, experienced photographer who was nearby and available, by saying he really wanted to pose with a female model. There is no logical explanation for declining such an excellent opportunity.

Having been placed with male models a number of times over the years, I can relate to getting a certain sense that something isn't quite right while posing with someone, particularly when there is significant interaction taking place during the various poses we are called to present during the two or three hours of a life drawing session or photo shoot.  While I don't mind sitting on the lap of another model I certainly don't want surprises such as an erection or being touched in ways that aren't appropriate for the pose involved.  I have always made it clear that I am OK with being physically close and with being touched in a way that is intended to enhance the pose, or necessary, which does not include crossing certain lines. It can be hard to be sure what the person's intentions are while interacting in a pose unless they make it really obvious that they are enjoying it or start to cross those lines. 

So which category does the OP fall into?  I'm just as confused about his intentions as many of the others who have responded.  I'll definitely give him the benefit of the doubt on the poor quality poses and photos, but I can't understand declining the offer to work with a photographer at all.

MatureModelMM wrote:
I was warned that some male models try to contact female models with a request to pose together, when their intentions were more along the lines of wanting to be naked together because modelling could be seen as a situation where it would be OK for them to be naked alongside a female. I'm sure that many female models have been talked into this situation not knowing or realizing what the intentions of the male model were.

I received a similar warning when I was new to modeling...it's unfortunate, because I'm sure there are plenty of male models out there who are perfectly professional and respectful, and the disrespectful ones make it harder for us to trust male models in general.  I've never shot with any male models, so I don't have my own experience to share, but I've been warned that many of these male models looking for couples shoots are more interested in getting intimately close to a nude woman, and have hopes that it may lead to an opportunity to hook up with the woman.

I haven't been approached by male models much on this site recently, but earlier in the year I had a number of them reach out around the same time.  One of them didn't actually ask to do a shoot with me, he just asked "if it was ok to get to know me"...whatever that means!  Another asked to do a couples shoot with me, and when I didn't respond for a couple of days (by this point I was getting tired of trying to be polite in the face of less-than-professional advances from male models), he messaged me saying "wow, nevermind, I didn't realize you were so full of yourself."

So, at the moment, my stock response to these requests is "I'm not doing that kind of shoot for trade," which has pretty much just stopped the conversations in their tracks.  If someone (model or photographer) was offering to pay my full rates for a nude couples shoot, I might consider it, but there would have to be a clear concept, with clear boundaries, and I would have to feel comfortable with both the male model and photographer.  No weird vibes allowed!  My safety and comfort level are most important to me when I am choosing whether or not to accept a shoot.

Mina Salome wrote:
So, at the moment, my stock response to these requests is "I'm not doing that kind of shoot for trade," which has pretty much just stopped the conversations in their tracks.  If someone (model or photographer) was offering to pay my full rates for a nude couples shoot, I might consider it, but there would have to be a clear concept, with clear boundaries, and I would have to feel comfortable with both the male model and photographer.  No weird vibes allowed!  My safety and comfort level are most important to me when I am choosing whether or not to accept a shoot.

I think that is a very realistic approach to a situation which could be uncomfortable.  I typically have not done couples shoots with male models unless being paid and knowing exactly what the concept and limits are. I am much more open with other female models as they are more likely to behave professionally even if you don't know each other. That's just the way things are, there has always seemed to be a significant level of trust among female models who are called to work together.

Sometimes when being offered an assignment posing for artists or in classes, a model is told they will be posing with another model of the same or opposite gender and they have the freedom to make a choice before accepting the assignment. If they aren't comfortable with doing that, they can decline the offer and another model will be called. I know some models who have openly stated they won't pose with specific people for a variety of reasons, but quite often due to poor hygiene or inappropriate behavior that has happened in the past, and not necessarily from that model's personal experience with the other one. The choice not to work with any individual could have resulted from something another model, photographer or artist has said about that person's behavior or how they present themselves while modelling.

Knowing who the other model is and having worked together previously are both very important factors in establishing a comfort level and boundaries.  Sometimes the artist or photographer will ask both of us if we are OK doing a specific concept or pose that they have in mind, and a few times one or the other (and occasionally both) will decline or suggest a modification to the pose that would be acceptable to everyone.

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:

...No not that nature
A Clare Hesse nature

There's a name from the past that us MM vets will remember well...

Ellie-D wrote:
Modeling becomes immoral when it's nonconsensual.

Great answer!

FFantastique wrote:
So what happened to OP?

That's difficult to figure out.  Either some of the things we said upset or offended him, or those who were thinking the reasons behind the photos and profile were not a sincere modelling effort are correct.  He's been gone for a while.

Ellie-D wrote:
Modeling becomes immoral when it's nonconsensual.

LightDreams wrote:
Great answer!

I love that answer, it's the short and accurate summary of much of what has been written in this topic.

JT99 wrote:
I haven't made much of a secret that I'm a conservative Christian yet do nude classroom figure modeling.  (It's right in my profile.)

I'm curious what others' take on this question is: When, if ever, does (legal!) modeling become "immoral"?

How about when the modeling is part of a campaign to push harmful products or services? Like junk food, alcohol, or gambling?

Eagle Rock Photographer wrote:
How about when the modeling is part of a campaign to push harmful products or services? Like junk food, alcohol, or gambling?

That's one bit of advice I always give new models. You should never, ever compromise your personal values on such things, so if you are offered a job modelling for something you are personally opposed to or that could be harmful to people in some way, then the appropriate thing to do is decline the offer.


I wonder if the original poster is still checking in on this discussion weeks later, even though he no longer has an MM profile?