Photographer
Black Z Eddie
Posts: 1903
San Jacinto, California, US
It kinda blew my mind when I saw one of MM's traveling nude models making over 6K a month from Patreon. Damn! Definitely nothing to sneeze at.
Photographer
Super Dimension Foto
Posts: 117
Portland, Oregon, US
It's very common.
My biggest complaint is that many of them can get away with just posting low quality selfies.
Model
Dea and the Beast
Posts: 4796
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
Super Dimension Foto wrote:
It's very common.
My biggest complaint is that many of them can get away with just posting low quality selfies. Supply and demand.
"Getting away with".. Interesting...
I suppose next thing a run of the mill webcam girl needs a team to light her or she's worthless.... After all nobody needs talent or creative vision any more so long as they have $39.0000 in gear. 
Or maybe dudes get pissed when their mediocre work goes nowhere but tits will always sell....
Conundrums.
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
I am starting a Patreon in the fall, under a different name, for self-portraiture work. Since I have been photographing myself and posting that around social media, I have begun booking good paying gigs again as a model. That is coming after a gradual, four year decline in the number of shoots I got offered - even steep drop offs in inquiries. Sites that do not require listing age make a big difference for us older models, or that allow us to have TOTAL control over images and how they're shown (example: needing to censor an image for use. When you shoot it yourself, you can censor it for whatever media you need to, rather than spending weeks chasing down the photographer who shot it, then trying to get permission to put censor bars over nipples).
I am the same weight I was when I was 17 years old, except now I have a six pack stomach in my 30s, and the income that allows me to now get professional skincare treatment, manicures and self-maintenance I was not able to afford even just a few years ago. I am still a valuable and useful model, but being able to now create self-promotional images myself - rather than relying on (highly unreliable)TFP agreements with amateurs from MM, or paying photographers who provide inconsistent and often disappointing results after the fact - is likely to be a game changer for me, after a couple years of feeling directionless and disconnected. Modeling life seemed almost like another lifetime ago for me, even though my last tour was less than two years ago and I have since felt a bit lost creatively, without that focus in my life.
I'll never be a full-time model again, as I now have a busy, demanding career outside modeling (as a personal trainer) - but the desire to create and share creatively with others is something that will probably be with me for the rest of my life. Sites like Patreon seem to allow models to do that, and do it on their own terms where, in the past, we had little control and were heavily reliant upon photographers from the internet. Some of those people were wonderful, dependable colleagues, with rapid turnover in workflow, etc. Many, many were not.
I have always been a business-minded person. I have always been able to turn what I loved into a business. I have been able to earn income as a model, as a writer, as a trainer... Models get a lot of crap from people over stuff like this, but the fact is, many of us are simply businesswomen at heart. We are good at seeing opportunities, loving the work and bringing it fully to life with our own passion and dedication. Some people are threatened by this, especially when it's done by women - others are not.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Super Dimension Foto wrote:
It's very common.
My biggest complaint is that many of them can get away with just posting low quality selfies. Those sometimes sell better.
That's kinda a brilliant marketing strategy if you ask me.
Why do you think "girl next door" is such a popular concept.
I know a lot of successful models on patreon (and artists, and photographers) post journal entries, unedited selfies you wouldn't find anywhere else, send postcards/prints to patrons, etc.
Patreon allows fans to get a more personal connection to whoever they decide to follow- really like an artist? See them do live streams that are only available to patrons. Really like a photographer? Sometimes they host a Q&A video so you can learn more about their process. Same sort of concept with models.
Model
MatureModelMM
Posts: 2843
Detroit, Michigan, US
Since it's time to retire from my regular job of 40+ years because I'm turning 65, I have been thinking seriously about doing something like Patreon to expand my number of followers and possibly make a little at the same time. I'll have to look into that and see how difficult it is to set up and maintain. I'd love to be able to share casual nudes and concept stuff as well.
While I have never been a fan of selfies and don't own that sort of phone, there's always the possibility of using a real camera on a stand, with a timer to get better quality shots, at times when I'm not modelling for a photographer or artist. Thinking about it, some of the casual reference shots that various artists have taken of me over the years might be the perfect start for sharing. I never felt that very many were good enough to add to my MM portfolio or my print portfolio.
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4861
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Those "low quality selfies" can read as authentic and unstaged, communicating an idea of intimacy and connection in the viewers mind between him and the attractive, young, nude model.
People will pay for that stuff and, technical aspects aside, it's a good photo (or set) because it creates and fulfills an audience expectation and tells a story.
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
MatureModelMM wrote:
.
While I have never been a fan of selfies and don't own that sort of phone, there's always the possibility of using a real camera on a stand, with a timer to get better quality shots, at times when I'm not modelling for a photographer or artist. Thinking about it, some of the casual reference shots that various artists have taken of me over the years might be the perfect start for sharing. I never felt that very many were good enough to add to my MM portfolio or my print portfolio. I invested my fat and juicy tax return into a nice-ish camera, tripods, studio lights and stands. It is one of the best investments of extra cash I've ever made.
Model
MatureModelMM
Posts: 2843
Detroit, Michigan, US
Jeffrey M Fletcher wrote:
Those "low quality selfies" can read as authentic and unstaged, communicating an idea of intimacy and connection in the viewers mind between him and the attractive, young, nude model.
People will pay for that stuff and, technical aspects aside, it's a good photo (or set) because it creates and fulfills an audience expectation and tells a story. So based upon that, I should try going in that direction? One of the photographers I work with sometimes describes that style as something you would expect from an amateur with a cheap or disposable camera taking shots of his girlfriend or neighbor. I guess it would be pretty easy to do selfies like that if you were intentionally not being too careful about details.
I disagree with your use of the word "young" when describing the model. I always thought models had to be young but have learned that I have an amazing number of fans and followers here on Model Mayhem who are thrilled to find someone my age who is still reasonably attractive and actively modelling and totally comfortable being naked. So my thoughts on models being "young" have totally changed. Models can be anyone, any age, any appearance, and there will always be people who like what they do. I seriously intend to find out exactly how long I can continue to model, but I know several who regularly pose for artists that are in their 70's and some are past 80!
Model
MatureModelMM
Posts: 2843
Detroit, Michigan, US
Koryn wrote:
I invested my fat and juicy tax return into a nice-ish camera, tripods, studio lights and stands. It is one of the best investments of extra cash I've ever made. If there is one person who knows exactly how to use everything to her best advantage as a model, it would be you. I'm constantly amazed at how successful you have been, and I'm positive that you will continue to be just as successful taking it in different directions.
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
MatureModelMM wrote:
If there is one person who knows exactly how to use everything to her best advantage as a model, it would be you. I'm constantly amazed at how successful you have been, and I'm positive that you will continue to be just as successful taking it in different directions. Well, I have never been successful in a "mainstream" way, but I have been able to commodify things I cared about and loved doing. It doesn't seem to require any special skill, beyond perhaps tenacity. And when people tell you that it's "impossible," accepting that as a challenge to show them how wrong they are. I've spent the past 20 years proving skeptical people wrong, and plan on continuing that throughout the rest of my days. The longer I live, the more time I have to one-up people who tell me I can't do things I want to do.
I'm sort of joking - but sort of not.
Photographer
Carle Photo
Posts: 475
New Orleans, Louisiana, US
MatureModelMM wrote:
While I have never been a fan of selfies and don't own that sort of phone, there's always the possibility of using a real camera on a stand, with a timer to get better quality shots, at times when I'm not modeling for a photographer or artist. Thinking about it, some of the casual reference shots that various artists have taken of me over the years might be the perfect start for sharing. I never felt that very many were good enough to add to my MM portfolio or my print portfolio. MOST of my modeling profile is "selfies"
Model
MatureModelMM
Posts: 2843
Detroit, Michigan, US
Ionalynn wrote:
MOST of my modeling profile is "selfies" Based upon the amazing quality of the photos, I would never have guessed that in a million years if you hadn't said so. Definitely 1000% better than what we usually think of when using the word "selfie" to describe a photo, which many people use in a derogatory way. Yours look like professional quality work done by a skilled photographer which proves it's possible to do it yourself with care and attention to detail.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
MatureModelMM wrote:
Based upon the amazing quality of the photos, I would never have guessed that in a million years if you hadn't said so. Definitely 1000% better than what we usually think of when using the word "selfie" to describe a photo, which many people use in a derogatory way. Yours look like professional quality work done by a skilled photographer which proves it's possible to do it yourself with care and attention to detail. She shot my profile picture, too 
Good luck to you n Koryn I think you'll both do well, consistency is key it sounds, other than that I'm sure you'll create engaging content
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
MatureModelMM wrote:
Based upon the amazing quality of the photos, I would never have guessed that in a million years if you hadn't said so. Definitely 1000% better than what we usually think of when using the word "selfie" to describe a photo, which many people use in a derogatory way. Yours look like professional quality work done by a skilled photographer which proves it's possible to do it yourself with care and attention to detail. My avatar is self-shot. It's not a perfect photo by any stretch; I've taken technically better ones, but it's gotten me 3 paying jobs since I posted it a few weeks back. Before I put it up, I hadn't gotten but one gig offer since last February.
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4861
Asheville, North Carolina, US
MatureModelMM wrote:
So based upon that, I should try going in that direction? One of the photographers I work with sometimes describes that style as something you would expect from an amateur with a cheap or disposable camera taking shots of his girlfriend or neighbor. I guess it would be pretty easy to do selfies like that if you were intentionally not being too careful about details. Yes, it definitely can work to create the impression that the viewer has entered into an authentic, personal, and intimate relationship with the model. And that can be both esthetically and financially successful. I've seen examples both at the high brow end, in museums and galleries, and at the low brow end in commercial erotica.
The argument that technical expertise is the point (often the selling point) of a picture is a middle brow argument and a necessary one. It's also one that's usually aimed at the model/subject of the picture rather than at a third, outside viewer.
For example: There have been photo packages offered for years throughout the country (seems especially prevalent in the south), that target women, often older women with "glamor" sessions. The wrinkles and spots magically disappear, some nice haze, maybe some feathers, a good bit of make-up, and every effort made to bring out the youthful, sexy, inner beauty of the model/subject. It's not a large level of technical expertise that's needed for this sort of thing but it's certainly beyond the average selfie. The technical competence, while minimal, is crucial to the success of that sort of picture and satisfying the client for whom it's produced.
Now, both the sort of "glam" image described above and the patron sets that are the subject of this thread can be described as 'sexy", but, they're not generally interchangeable. What was sold, on the basis of cost and professional expertise to the woman paying for the "glam" package is not generally going to result in an image that will sell on Patreon. And neither does the woman on Patreon necessarily need the technical expertise of the type that produces a sexy "glam" package to create a flow of marketable images for her subscription based cliental.
MatureModelMM wrote:
I disagree with your use of the word "young" when describing the model. I always thought models had to be young but have learned that I have an amazing number of fans and followers here on Model Mayhem who are thrilled to find someone my age who is still reasonably attractive and actively modelling and totally comfortable being naked. So my thoughts on models being "young" have totally changed. Models can be anyone, any age, any appearance, and there will always be people who like what they do. I seriously intend to find out exactly how long I can continue to model, but I know several who regularly pose for artists that are in their 70's and some are past 80! I'm happy that you disagree and applaud your viewpoint and your work. I'd be interested in working with you if we were in the same area and we could reach some sort of agreement on shooting. I've advertised for older models during the past few years on a couple of occasions, and, while I've had good luck with finding older males, i haven't had much luck with older females (although I will say the responses from women have been quite interesting, just not really functional in terms of photographs relationships).
The use of the word young was in relation to the topic of the thread and the linked article. It's a generalization, one that I'd love to hear was wrong. I wish you all the best luck with Patreon and would be happy to hear about any adventures you have there, it could expand my knowledge of that platform.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
I wonder how many of the women share what they make with the photographers who do the images.
Photographer
WisconsinArt
Posts: 612
Nashotah, Wisconsin, US
This was being done 15 years ago, nothing new.
What would be new if I could get people to pay to follow an old man like me.
Photographer
Yani S
Posts: 1101
Los Angeles, California, US
This is cool but kinda confusing at the same time. Why would someone pay to see nude photos when you can see them all day long for free on the web?
Model
Orientalprincess
Posts: 1
Dallas, Texas, US
Post hidden on Aug 06, 2017 04:35 pm Reason: violates rules Comments: Advocating illegal acts
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4861
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Yani S wrote:
This is cool but kinda confusing at the same time. Why would someone pay to see nude photos when you can see them all day long for free on the web? Why did anyone ever buy a record, tape or CD when radio had music for free?
I guess the purchaser must of had a preference for the specific over the general to the point that it was worth money to them.
Model
Liv Sage
Posts: 431
Seattle, Washington, US
I really like patreon. I started one mostly to have a way to share my own photography while maybe making money for diner food or instant film while on the road. I only post my own photography and self portrait work there (I use a camera with a remote shutter release for my self portrait work).
I make a decent amount now...maybe about 25-30% of my rent per month. Not all of my photos are nudes either - I post still lifes (I'm really interested in still life photography) and travel photos along with journal updates and thoughts from traveling. It's a bit difficult to maintain in certain countries and locations though. Last week I was on Gabriola Island (about a 2 hour ferry ride from Vancouver) living in a tiny house and hiking around in the forest. I had a very slow wifi connection, but still had to figure out how to update everything.
It's a good way to monetize my work to help pay my bills, and it also keeps me accountable. Before, I was sort of just off-and-on with my own photography, it was really sporadic. But this has forced me to constantly be doing something with myself. The money is motivating me to a certain extent, but I also want people to be happy with what they're paying for. It's also helped me increase my print sales in my etsy store. I have often thought about how to increase the amount of money I'm making, but I don't do erotic or video content. I also refuse to do snapchat or live chats. For the amount of time I devote to it, and what I get out of it personally in terms of motivation to create on a consistent basis, I think it's been a good thing.
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9775
Bellingham, Washington, US
Yani S wrote:
This is cool but kinda confusing at the same time. Why would someone pay to see nude photos when you can see them all day long for free on the web? Attempting to apply logic to this situation will not result in a meaningful conclusion.
They are not paying to see nude photos, they are paying to have a "connection".
It doesn't have to make sense to you, it happens and it happens often enough to generate commerce.
Model
Liv Sage
Posts: 431
Seattle, Washington, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
I wonder how many of the women share what they make with the photographers who do the images. Many of us do our own photography (like myself), so we have no need to do that.
Among the women who do share other photographer's images on patreon, most have permission to do so. I've had many photographers (from paid shoots no less) tell me they'd be happy if I used their images on my patreon. I don't do that, but it's not uncommon for many photographers to be completely fine with it.
Also, most patrons are not paying to see a specific photo set anyway. And in many cases, the amount of money, if you broke it down, per photoset a model posts is pretty minimal. I'm not saying it's okay to post sets without asking a photographer, but most girls are not earning a huge amount of money from any one set - in fact, for most, it's enough to buy a latte at starbucks haha.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
I wonder how many of the women share what they make with the photographers who do the images. Maybe models can hire photographers. Even $15/hr and a little gas money thrown in maybe. Beats minimum wage and if a photographer works 40 hours a week that's not a bad deal.
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9775
Bellingham, Washington, US
Nat has a username wrote:
Maybe models can hire photographers. Even $15/hr and a little gas money thrown in maybe. Beats minimum wage and if a photographer works 40 hours a week that's not a bad deal.
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 3779
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Post hidden on Aug 06, 2017 04:54 pm Reason: violates rules Comments: Advocating illegal acts
Photographer
Todd Meredith
Posts: 728
Fayetteville, North Carolina, US
Shadow Dancer wrote:
My thoughts exactly, Shadow Dancer. A "whole" $600 a week!!! Let's keep in mind the cost of equipment, formal education, etc. If $15/hr is such good money, why are there so many members on this site advertising their services for $100/hr?
I found it especially ironic when that member's profile states the hourly rate for photography is $140/hr. Guess we know where photographers stand with some people.
This is as good as the members who will only accept paid assignments but post in the castings begging for TFP work from others to redo their portfolio, on some "special" project or for a party they're throwing, promising exposure as the reward for working with them. My all time favorite was the member from this site that noticed I mentioned I do wedding photography and, because we belong to the same site, thought I'd travel two hours and shoot her wedding for free because she would provide me a meal and "great exposure" here on MM. The same person's profile stated they only do paid assignments. It's truly Amazing the gall some people have!
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9775
Bellingham, Washington, US
Todd Meredith wrote:
My thoughts exactly, Shadow Dancer. A "whole" $600 a week!!! Let's keep in mind the cost of equipment, formal education, etc. If $15/hr is such good money, why are there so many members on this site advertising their services for $100/hr?
I found it especially ironic when that member's profile states the hourly rate for photography is $140/hr. Guess we know where photographers stand with some people.
This is as good as the members who will only accept paid assignments but post in the castings begging for TFP work from others to redo their portfolio, on some "special" project or for a party they're throwing, promising exposure as the reward for working with them. My all time favorite was the member from this site that noticed I mentioned I do wedding photography and, because we belong to the same site, thought I'd travel two hours and shoot her wedding for free because she would provide me a meal and "great exposure" here on MM. The same person's profile stated they only do paid assignments. It's truly Amazing the gall some people have! Sir Todd, you've made your own interpretation of my emoji and that is perfectly fine.
After all the MM "price war" threads with numerous postings by photographers who by their own admission make little or no money with their photography complaining about models asking for $100 an hour I thought the comment was very witty and masterfully ironic.
The realities of supply and demand will win out every time. What your gear and education cost you are not considered by anybody other than yourself in terms of what they will pay for your services. There is very little demand and abundant supply of photographers who want to photograph models, it doesn't matter if anybody likes that or not.
You have wisely chosen a field of photography where there is demand and where quality matters to enough customers to provide you with a nice income stream. I've shot a few weddings and decided it was not for me. My hat is off to you but the two fields of endeavor are not comparable.
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 3779
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
I think I my need to clarify what I said, I think it may have been seen as condoning or advocating an illegal activity. My comment was one of surprise and stupification that someone mentioned something that is in fact a crime. When everyone just seemed to ignore what was said I wanted to call attention to it so a mod would pick up on it. That is why I requoted it. I guess I should have just left it alone.
I said " that's interesting" not because I was in support of the activity actually the opposit. I had written a few sentences jumping on the post and stating it was illegal, then I thought better of it and not wanting to seem like I was beating up on a newbie I erased it and just said that's interesting.
I would like to apologize to anyone who thought otherwise. I hope this clarifies my position
Thanks
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Todd Meredith wrote:
My thoughts exactly, Shadow Dancer. A "whole" $600 a week!!! Let's keep in mind the cost of equipment, formal education, etc. If $15/hr is such good money, why are there so many members on this site advertising their services for $100/hr?
I found it especially ironic when that member's profile states the hourly rate for photography is $140/hr. Guess we know where photographers stand with some people.
This is as good as the members who will only accept paid assignments but post in the castings begging for TFP work from others to redo their portfolio, on some "special" project or for a party they're throwing, promising exposure as the reward for working with them. My all time favorite was the member from this site that noticed I mentioned I do wedding photography and, because we belong to the same site, thought I'd travel two hours and shoot her wedding for free because she would provide me a meal and "great exposure" here on MM. The same person's profile stated they only do paid assignments. It's truly Amazing the gall some people have! I was just borrowing from Tony's previous advice for models that he has given in numerous occasions 
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9775
Bellingham, Washington, US
Nat has a username wrote:
I was just borrowing from Tony's previous advice for models that he has given in numerous occasions See my reply 2 posts above yours! 
I knew that was your reference point.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Nat has a username wrote:
Maybe models can hire photographers. Even $15/hr and a little gas money thrown in maybe. Beats minimum wage and if a photographer works 40 hours a week that's not a bad deal. I agree. Minimum wage in Chicago is $10.50 per hour and lower in other states so many photographers would gladly work for $15.00 per hour and a bag of chips. I recall you're a photographer right with a successful studio and big clients so you wouldn't. However many others would. As a model are you paying?
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
I agree. Minimum wage in Chicago is $10.50 per hour and lower in other states so many photographers would gladly work for $15.00 per hour and a bag of chips. I recall you're a photographer right with a successful studio and big clients so you wouldn't. However many others would. As a model are you paying? I think you have me confused with Iona Lynn
I'm an art model so I don't need an updated portfolio, just recent snapshots and references from the right people. The most recent pictures in my portfolio demonstrate exactly what I need to book work.
If I were a commercial model and needed to have my portfolio updates regularly? It would make sense to hire the right photographer who delivered exactly what I needed in order to book more jobs if I couldn't find a photographer who could provide what I need for trade.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Shadow Dancer wrote:
See my reply 2 posts above yours!
I knew that was your reference point. I'm glad someone did
Photographer
Yani S
Posts: 1101
Los Angeles, California, US
Jeffrey M Fletcher wrote:
Why did anyone ever buy a record, tape or CD when radio had music for free?
I guess the purchaser must of had a preference for the specific over the general to the point that it was worth money to them. Because radio gets paid to pump out the same songs over and over again. Lots of times not the ones you want to hear. So if you want to hear some types of music. You have to buy your own. To listen to your own style. Now with the internet it has really destroyed the sales. As you can just youtube and make playlist of all your songs. No need to pay those either. Hence why music artist are doing way more concerts now. To make money. Sad but true as I know several. They are not happy with it. But thats the nature of the Beast!
Photographer
Yani S
Posts: 1101
Los Angeles, California, US
Shadow Dancer wrote:
Attempting to apply logic to this situation will not result in a meaningful conclusion.
They are not paying to see nude photos, they are paying to have a "connection".
It doesn't have to make sense to you, it happens and it happens often enough to generate commerce. It does have to make sense to me. Because if I want to help friends make commerce or myself. Its good to know all the ins&outs. Just to go in blindly could be a waste of money and time!
If this works on a consent bases or above average. It be worth knowing about and doing oneself too!
So if they are not paying for nude photos. Can models not post nudes of themselves and generate the same kind of income. If they are will to make the connection?
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9775
Bellingham, Washington, US
Yani S wrote:
Shadow Dancer wrote:
Attempting to apply logic to this situation will not result in a meaningful conclusion.
They are not paying to see nude photos, they are paying to have a "connection".
It doesn't have to make sense to you, it happens and it happens often enough to generate commerce.
It does have to make sense to me. Because if I want to help friends make commerce or myself. Its good to know all the ins&outs. Just to go in blindly could be a waste of money and time!
If this works on a consent bases or above average. It be worth knowing about and doing oneself too!
So if they are not paying for nude photos. Can models not post nudes of themselves and generate the same kind of income. If they are will to make the connection? The second sentence in my post you quoted is the answer you seek. I don't know why they do that but they do. I also don't know why people like Clown Midget Tightrope Unicyle Porn© but they do. So it goes.
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