Koryn wrote:
... models are not being respected as equals, or as hardworking businessfolk. Modeling is a business, just like photography, It's not that models aren't talking about business.

I agree with what you said in your entire post.

Thing is, most photographers can't see a model as an equal.  Can they?  Of course?  Do they? Humph.  I would figure that glamour photography where the model is looking seductive for the camera, etc. - do you really think a man would negate all sexual thoughts be they overt or covert thoughts ever?  Nope.  Fashion can be the same way of course.

I have seen some Playboy video directors somewhat bored with themselves as with the models.  Working in the office in Hollywood and on set in business and production, I've met a lot of 'failed' film directors and many arrogant older models that spent a lot of time on their boobs and abs.

I could feel the director mentally yawning on set.

For most photographers shooting glamour to erotica, some are hum-drum about it... next!  Others are just excited to have a deviation in their day and to be around an individual that wouldn't spend time with them on a social level for -0-.

The playing field is different.

I guess if I went into my corporate job with my boobs hanging out and a skirt right below my ass-cheek (some do!), I doubt anyone would really respect me lest think of me as an equal no matter how beautifully I extract and manipulate my data, talking to many ignoramuses that don't feel like reading instructions whilst making their metrics soar.

Models are the talent and the subject and very important.  At the end of the day many photographers just see a model as an opportunity to have a date or spend time with someone they couldn't have a beer with in real life.

Jules NYC wrote:

I agree with what you said in your entire post.

Thing is, most photographers can't see a model as an equal.  Can they?  Of course?  Do they? Humph.  I would figure that glamour photography where the model is looking seductive for the camera, etc. - do you really think a man would negate all sexual thoughts be they overt or covert thoughts ever?  Nope.  Fashion can be the same way of course....

I guess if I went into my corporate job with my boobs hanging out and a skirt right below my ass-cheek (some do!), I doubt anyone would really respect me lest think of me as an equal no matter how beautifully I extract and manipulate my data, talking to many ignoramuses that don't feel like reading instructions whilst making their metrics soar.

Models are the talent and the subject and very important.  At the end of the day many photographers just see a model as an opportunity to have a date or spend time with someone they couldn't have a beer with in real life.

If only it were that simple. It's not. It's a lot more cut throat and systemic than that.

When young, new models do not have access to information, they remain in the dark about making money, managing schedules, increasing revenue, gaining tools that are literally the keys to self-empowerment in a job.  Any job.  Squelching these conversations before models are able to gain advice and feedback from other models means the newer members are unable to gain the same power and mobility in their working environments. It keeps them working for less money, less compensation, in more questionable working conditions.

Ignorance and lack of access to open conversations in business-building makes these folks less likely to understand what is even "normal" for freelance models, increasing the risk of having to deal with unsavory characters and burning out quickly. Informed models, who have an online and connected support system of other models, welcome conversations about pricing/promotion and the like, just aren't easy to abuse or exploit. They seek good working conditions, with fair compensation.

. Silencing young, hungry and ambitious models serves a subtle benefit to those who feel entitled to have a specialty service, without having the expectation of fair compensation (and compensation can mean many things) attached to the labor. If you don't even know you have a marketable talent, or what the estimated value of your skillset might be, you can't necessarily seek fair compensation. You cannot find that out if there's no one to ask, and your questioning is quickly shut down. Also, undermining business-building conversation weeds out and eliminates the particularly business-minded among the models, while reinforcing that less-serious, part-time work, with low or no compensation is all that's available. This changes the environment to attract models who are the least likely to view modeling as a viable and legitimate occupation. People who don't care and won't ask at all.

Historically, we live in a world that prefers to keep its 18-40 year old women (or people with uteruses, generally speaking) barefoot and pregnant. I see no real deviation from that here.

photo212grapher wrote:

This will be a great disservice to the community. I've learned so much in the model forum by reading and interacting with various models. Once again, the many are being punished for the actions of the few.

We've never had a problem with photographers using the model forum to ask us questions. We have a problem with someone asking questions FOR MODELS and photographers trampling all over the thread to give their own responses and to tell the models who were responding how they were doing it wrong.

You'd still be free to read and learn from a models-only forum. You don't have to actively be a part of the discussion to learn from it - its the same as reading a book you don't get to interject your own opinions into. You don't need to center yourself in discussions to learn from them.

Koryn wrote:
If only it were that simple. It's not. It's a lot more cut throat and systemic than that.

When young, new models do not have access to information, they remain in the dark about making money, managing schedules, increasing revenue, gaining tools that are literally the keys to self-empowerment in a job.  Any job.  Squelching these conversations before models are able to gain advice and feedback from other models means the newer members are unable to gain the same power and mobility in their working environments. It keeps them working for less money, less compensation, in more questionable working conditions.

Ignorance and lack of access to open conversations in business-building makes these folks less likely to understand what is even "normal" for freelance models, increasing the risk of having to deal with unsavory characters and burning out quickly. Informed models, who have an online and connected support system of other models, welcome conversations about pricing/promotion and the like, just aren't easy to abuse or exploit. They seek good working conditions, with fair compensation.

. Silencing young, hungry and ambitious models serves a subtle benefit to those who feel entitled to have a specialty service, without having the expectation of fair compensation (and compensation can mean many things) attached to the labor. If you don't even know you have a marketable talent, or what the estimated value of your skillset might be, you can't necessarily seek fair compensation. You cannot find that out if there's no one to ask, and your questioning is quickly shut down. Also, undermining business-building conversation weeds out and eliminates the particularly business-minded among the models, while reinforcing that less-serious, part-time work, with low or no compensation is all that's available. This changes the environment to attract models who are the least likely to view modeling as a viable and legitimate occupation. People who don't care and won't ask at all.

Historically, we live in a world that prefers to keep its 18-40 year old women (or people with uteruses, generally speaking) barefoot and pregnant. I see no real deviation from that here.

In hindsight I would have done things so differently "if only I've known" *this, that and that other thing*.

I think it's a great gift to share one's trials and errors so the next generation of models doesn't have to experience such.  I'm sure even daughters/sons of celebrity models, actors, musicians, etc. get the business much faster in terms of 'how to get there' but still need to pave their own way.  Plus, it's truly through 'error' that you really learn.  One's experience may work for them and be dastardly for another.

I think modeling is a beautiful art form in front or behind the camera for many reasons.  I also think that modeling is certainly NOT the best profession to try to 'make it big' financially.  I know many young hopefuls want exactly that and others just want to feel pretty and be a part of a professional industry if they can be.

As far as how women are viewed, I could talk for hours on that with many examples throughout society, certainly a loaded topic.

Honestly, modeling can be both beneficial or detrimental to one's esteem however they navigate that landscape.  I still love modeling yet my priorities have changed 'why' I love doing it in the first place.

Don't even get me started on women in the workplace.  Lately I'm having more annoyances with the women than the men.  The power-play is quite amusing.  I ask myself, "is it really worth bitching about something so trivial"?

Now back to my grindstone.  Maybe I'll make an arrowhead!

photo212grapher wrote:
This will be a great disservice to the community. I've learned so much in the model forum by reading and interacting with various models. Once again, the many are being punished for the actions of the few.

Laura UnBound wrote:
You'd still be free to read and learn from a models-only forum. You don't have to actively be a part of the discussion to learn from it - its the same as reading a book you don't get to interject your own opinions into. You don't need to center yourself in discussions to learn from them.

I read the photography forum frequently, but rarely comment there. Occasionally, but probably less than once a month I'll comment, despite reading those threads almost daily. I feel I've learned interesting useful things there, but my own opinions are mostly irrelevant in that board and I have little to contribute overall. Most of the photography threads are better answered by people who know far more about gear, lights and camera adjustments than I do - you know, like experienced photographers. You can read and learn, while still seeing silence as a virtue.

Koryn wrote:

photo212grapher wrote:
This will be a great disservice to the community. I've learned so much in the model forum by reading and interacting with various models. Once again, the many are being punished for the actions of the few.

I read the photography forum frequently, but rarely comment there. Occasionally, but probably less than once a month I'll comment, despite reading those threads almost daily. I feel I've learned interesting useful things there, but my own opinions are mostly irrelevant in that board and I have little to contribute overall. Most of the photography threads are better answered by people who know far more about gear, lights and camera adjustments than I do - you know, like experienced photographers. You can read and learn, while still seeing silence as a virtue.

Yes, I learn new things all the time lurking forums - not just on MM. I don't join or comment, just lurk.
One of my primary searches now is to enter my question, topic or the item I want more information on, followed by the word "forum". There are forums for everything, from fixing your car to which new recording interface is good and which isnt, etc.

photo212grapher wrote:
To truly learn you need to ask questions, follow-up the answers with more questions. This is basic giving-getting information.

Sometimes a question needs a prequel to place the question in context. Sometimes an answer is not an answer understood. What color is the barn? It is a ferris-based paint. Huh? Red. oh.

Discourse. Communication is a two-way street.

"Shut up and sit in the corner" is worse than the old adage, "A child is to be seen, not heard."

If someone starts a post, "This is for redheaded, eight-toed photographer's assistants only..." then asks a general question, why should it matter if the person replying is redhead or not, 8,9, 10 toes? The OP can easily ignore all the non-redheads and 10 toed responses if they wish. To state, "you are not redhead and I see 10 toes in your avatar" does not invalidate the reply given. All those not wanting to respond to 10-toed blondes are free to ignore that reply. Others might decide to engage the blonde with 10-toes.

This is simple Bulletin Board Etiquette from the beginning of internet BBs: when you start a thread you do not own the thread. You placed the thread in public domain.

I never used the word 'only.' You did.

And the reason I asked models is I have a stack of models waiting for answers from me so I wanted feedback from busy, active models.

I am able to ignore posts that don't apply. I haven't posted anything in this thread since the top of page 1.

Also, it's 'ferrous.'

photo212grapher wrote:
To truly learn you need to ask questions, follow-up the answers with more questions. This is basic giving-getting information.

Sometimes a question needs a prequel to place the question in context. Sometimes an answer is not an answer understood. What color is the barn? It is a ferris-based paint. Huh? Red. oh.

Discourse. Communication is a two-way street.

"Shut up and sit in the corner" is worse than the old adage, "A child is to be seen, not heard."

If someone starts a post, "This is for redheaded, eight-toed photographer's assistants only..." then asks a general question, why should it matter if the person replying is redhead or not, 8,9, 10 toes? The OP can easily ignore all the non-redheads and 10 toed responses if they wish. To state, "you are not redhead and I see 10 toes in your avatar" does not invalidate the reply given. All those not wanting to respond to 10-toed blondes are free to ignore that reply. Others might decide to engage the blonde with 10-toes.

This is simple Bulletin Board Etiquette from the beginning of internet BBs: when you start a thread you do not own the thread. You placed the thread in public domain.

Thats a whole lot of text for having not been asked. You seem to feel left out.

L o n d o n   F o g wrote:
Why do some people (especially photographers) dwell on this shit. If a model is not interested in your concept no matter how amazing you might feel it is, just leave it and move on.

As Jules has pointed out above it's not necessarily nicer at all for someone to say 'sorry not interested' as opposed to no reply at all, either way they ain't interested and plugging away at them or trying to find a reason why "she hates my work" etc, etc is just so pointless!

Move on for fucks sake!

Simple, I have lost many messages to filters, inattention, or fairies in the ethernet. I have had many important messages that I either haven't received or I found out someone else didn't receive and would never have known about if there were not some attempt at follow up communications. I have no idea if someone gets the message I send unless they respond, and I have no idea if I should follow up or if they don't want to be bothered unless their is some response. I get not answering something like a general casting call, sort of, because nowadays automatic responses when you read a message are simple to set up so I think that is how that should be handled, but I think ignoring a personal communication from someone electronically is not much different than ignoring them in person and when you are on a site that is designed for people to contact you, and especially when you state something like "Please contact me", then it is just rude and inconsiderate to ignore them when they do.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
Welcome back Kickham!   

Oh haaaaai!!!

SayCheeZ!  wrote:
a polite no

That's what separates the amateurs from the professionals.
A polite no means I can continue seeking someone suitable for a project.

No reply will leave a person hanging, which means they're probably a flake, too.

I've referred several models (and other types of employees) to other employers even though they've turned down an offer from me, but if they're too lazy or stuck on themselves to politely give me a yes, no, or "can I get more information before making a decision" I'm gonna be too lazy t refer them to someone else.  I'll also block them on MM to ensure that I'll never 'bother' them again.

For that reason there's been a few models that missed a great gig that they never even knew they had.

Couldn't agree more!

I work a lot with beginning models, and it's easy to tell which ones are going to get somewhere and which ones never will.  My queries are polite, respectful, specific, and invite the model to collaborate to get the shots SHE wants as well as merely getting what I would like.  Yet most of the models who actually read the queries don't even bother answering!  And when they fail to answer, I scratch them off the list; I don't care what line of work you're in, good communication is essential; in model photography, the better the communciation, the better the results. 

Not even bothering to attempt to communicate is inexcusable.

I can understand that a traveling model may not be interested in receiving hundreds of polite "no" responses to her mass emailing; at the same time, I normally do reply with yea or nay, and I always get back a polite "thank-you."  But then again, these models are professionals—and this is one way they demonstrate that professionalism.

SayCheeZ!  wrote:
a polite no

That's what separates the amateurs from the professionals.
A polite no means I can continue seeking someone suitable for a project.

No reply will leave a person hanging, which means they're probably a flake, too.

I've referred several models (and other types of employees) to other employers even though they've turned down an offer from me, but if they're too lazy or stuck on themselves to politely give me a yes, no, or "can I get more information before making a decision" I'm gonna be too lazy t refer them to someone else.  I'll also block them on MM to ensure that I'll never 'bother' them again.

For that reason there's been a few models that missed a great gig that they never even knew they had.

True

Koryn wrote:
When you are modeling full-time, and sending out 20+ inquiries per day, getting a lot of "no" answers clogs up your inbox and makes more to sort through. I don't care too much one way or the other. Most people simply don't respond period, and many messages models send out go unread. Just like when you apply for jobs in offices, server jobs, medical position jobs - whatever. Most jobs do not respond. Period. It's not a personal affront; it's just how things work.

Also True

For myself, I consider the polite turn down, especially if it's accompanied by a logical reason to be indicative of a person worth working with.  A non-response goes into a "never consider again" folder whereas a polite response warrants another contact, especially if a key condition such as "I would be willing to shoot nudes if     -------"  or  "I'm still in grad school in (city)  If you're ever near there . . . "  or if something changes on my side such as this is the only model I think could work for the project and I'm willing to negotiate payment.  A no response simply closes off any further opportunity, however unlikely, the model may have with me.

All IMHO as always, of course.

MatureModelMM wrote:
Both sides of the argument have their strong believers.  Personally I would prefer a prompt and polite reply within 24 hours even if all it says is sorry, I am not interested at this time.  No further explanation is expected or necessary.  I wouldn't be very likely to contact an artist or photographer a second time for a different project if there was no response at all to my first communication.

I concur ...if I may.

Expression Unlimited wrote:
on MM, no answer is NOT always a no.

some of us are not logged on often and get no notifications ....

This too!

I have received a couple of replies from proposals months after they'ed been sent.

TerrysPhotocountry wrote:
If you don't hear back  with in a  week or two? A No answer is a No!

Nope.

I've had models respond to a message that is several months old, even positively.  I've also occasionally sent follow up messages, and I've had a variety of positive responses to that. In each case, it has sometimes resulted in mutually beneficial shoots.

Koryn wrote:
... but as it stands, models are not being respected as equals, or as hardworking businessfolk. Modeling is a business, just like photography ...

Just to cherry pick a bit here, but it's hard to see someone as equal when I'm expected to hand over my cash every time I want to photograph. I've never seen a model willing to pay me. In fact, I've literally been blocked on social media because I told a model I wouldn't shoot her for free. Seems a bit lopsided (though, everyone I've worked with it's been because they love my work which has made our collaborations fantastic experiences with awesome results that no paid experience could have replicated).

Cherry picking aside, I had someone sending me travel notices because I sent her a message, once, a year ago. She never responded, I moved on, and almost a year later she asks me to shoot. At that point I had moved countries. A simple "no" could have worked wonders for everyone involved.

Though I do delete messages after like a day or two. Communication is key for me and if I don't hear anything back, I assume it's a hard "no" and don't pursue them for any other opportunities since they obviously don't want to shoot. No harm no foul, that's one of the obstacles of shooting what I shoot.

Anyways, I'm a photographer so let's get some more drama going! Make these forums a bit less dead.

Mod 7 (Cust. Svc.) wrote:
For now at least, the forums are open to anyone, but this model will eventually be models only, and that's because of people like you.

Please refrain from posting in this thread any further.

OK boys and girls I was just reading but this stupid ill placed comment got under my skin.  Y'all tried that before as a test with no plan what-so-ever to have a photographer only forum. So,  I assume that means that photographers will have a photographer only forum as well.  Right?

Mind you that this is coming from someone that clicks on the Model forum perhaps 3 or 4 times a year. Today it was a legitimate mistake.  I intended to click the Photographers link just below.  As a rule not much that happens here is of interest to me but your comment most certainly did. Anyway,  this time I'm glad that I did click it just so I can, once again, see how lopsided things really are here.

Then you just told dude that it was an open forum then told him to stop posting.  You know what that's called, right?

Now, be a good little admin and do a search on me.  See how often I have ever complained or made any hateful comment here in the model forum before this.

Todd Meredith wrote:
First of all, Nat, not responding to someone's request is rude.  It takes just a few minutes to say, "Thanks for the offer, but I'm not interested at this time."

I would agree with you if there was only one offer to respond to but usually there are many and while one offer may take a few seconds to respond to, fifteen or more a day is a big chunk of time. When it's obvious that the person offering work or responding to a casting hasn't even read your profile or the casting why would you put more effort into responding to them than they have put into contacting you in the first place?

For example, I have a casting on another site and got 63 responses so far. The casting is for a plus size model in the 30 to 45 years age range. About fifteen responses say "interested" and no more. They are too lazy to string a few words together to form a sentence, why would I bother to sit down a write them a polite rejection? The casting clearly states that I'm looking for size 12 or above but almost half of the responses are from models size 8 and below and many of them teens or early 20's. They didn't even read it, why would I waste time responding to them?

The reverse is true for models. Guys offering nude work to models who don't do it, TFP to models who clearly state it's not an option, etc. It's obvious that those photographers haven't read the model's profile. Why would she put more effort into responding than he did into offering?

If you get no response, no matter how dim you are, it will eventually register than the answer is no.

Erins Boudoir wrote:
I would agree with you if there was only one offer to respond to but usually there are many and while one offer may take a few seconds to respond to, fifteen or more a day is a big chunk of time. When it's obvious that the person offering work or responding to a casting hasn't even read your profile or the casting why would you put more effort into responding to them than they have put into contacting you in the first place?

For example, I have a casting on another site and got 63 responses so far. The casting is for a plus size model in the 30 to 45 years age range. About fifteen responses say "interested" and no more. They are too lazy to string a few words together to form a sentence, why would I bother to sit down a write them a polite rejection? The casting clearly states that I'm looking for size 12 or above but almost half of the responses are from models size 8 and below and many of them teens or early 20's. They didn't even read it, why would I waste time responding to them?

The reverse is true for models. Guys offering nude work to models who don't do it, TFP to models who clearly state it's not an option, etc. It's obvious that those photographers haven't read the model's profile. Why would she put more effort into responding than he did into offering?

If you get no response, no matter how dim you are, it will eventually register than the answer is no.

-
You make a good argument.  However, why would you put less time in than the person that contacted you?  Obviously, because your time is valuable and theirs is not.  If a person responds "interested," then perhaps you could respond, "Not interested."   You could have a few lines on a text page and just cut and paste.  "Not interested, you do not fit the criteria.  Please read the casting call more thoroughly.  Please feel free to contact me for a job for which you are suited."  You have already taken the time to look at the profile and portfolio or you wouldn't know what size they are or their age.  Okay, so maybe at that point you did put more time in then they did.  But this is also a networking site and certainly, that irritating little contact could be someone you would like to work with in the future.  Rather than dive below the bar, why not help to raise it?  Why not encourage courteous and thoughtfulness instead of plunging down to status quo? 

While you pick the most extreme examples, an unprofessional response of "interested" by someone that obviously did not read the casting or profile, the same response of no response is applied to someone that took serious time in reviewing the data and crafting an initial contact statement.  Many people have indicated that no response is a bridge burning.   I have to agree.  I tried to do a shoot one of the last times I was in Denver, CO.  It was right when MM changed the perimeters of contacts  related to the level of membership.  Instead of sending PMs to the people that I thought would fit the concept, I had to send out a lot of friend requests.  I stuck something in my profile about the job so people would know why I was contacting them.  I got back a ton of approved FRs and, low and behold, my two top choices responded.  I sent them a PM and got a zero response.  I followed up and got a zero response.   WTF!?  I sent other people messages and got very few responses.  Everyone I contacted was someone that responded to my FR or I would not have been able to contact them.  Really, the only professional response I got was from the one person that couldn't accommodate my limited opportunities to schedule a shoot.   So, despite your experiences of people not putting in effort, I put in effort and got the same ignorant, lazy, unprofessional response as I would have gotten if I just said, "Let's shoot."

If I am going to make an offer to a model, before I do, I go to the message history and check to see if we ever exchanged messages.  If I sent her a message and got no response, then I will find someone else to contact, unless the message was something for which a response was unnecessary.  If I did get a response, I am more likely to make an offer to that person then one in which I had not tried to message before, because the one that responded has already shown me that she will respond.

I don't really need to deal with all the BS that this site requires.  There are a ton of colleges/universities around here and I can put a flyer on a bulletin board and get more favorable responses and enjoy a better flake ratio than I can on MM.  Because the people that answer the flyer are more more likely to be professional and actually want to work.  Which is just amazing considering there is way more info about me on MM than on a flyer.

"If a person gets no response, no matter how dim they are, it will eventually register the answer is no."  (Except from previous examples from other posters, sometimes the answer is, "not now.")  The person who communicates by not communicating, no matter how dim they are, ought to comprehend that no response is not only no, it could also be, "Not now, not ever, go away you $^#& moron."  It doesn't seem like a good business model to me.  Which does makes them rather dim in my book.

GreenProgressive wrote:
QFT

I'd be cool with some simple code that prevented anyone here registered as a photographer from even being ABLE to post in a new section genuinely for models only responses.

Problem solved (but won't hold my breath waiting for the corporate owners to do it).
.

I would not have a problem with a Models-only posting area, (not viewing) but the way you state it, it would be a Models and everyone else except Photographers area! You are stipulating that only Photographers could not post there. I'm OK with some forums for each of the many talents on here to post in (such as Models, Retouchers, Muas, Photographers, Artists, Stylists, etc), but I would never agree to excluding one specific group! Though there may be those in here that would love that, that is unfair discrimination. We should also never eliminate the option of open forums.

I prefer the definite answer of yes or no to questions, so I can properly plan. Unfortunately common courtesy is no longer common!

Flex Photography wrote:
I would not have a problem with a Models-only posting area, (not viewing) but the way you state it, it would be a Models and everyone else except Photographers area! You are stipulating that only Photographers could not post there. I'm OK with some forums for each of the many talents on here to post in (such as Models, Retouchers, Muas, Photographers, Artists, Stylists, etc), but I would never agree to excluding one specific group! Though there may be those in here that would love that, that is unfair discrimination. We should also never eliminate the option of open forums.

I prefer the definite answer of yes or no to questions, so I can properly plan. Unfortunately common courtesy is no longer common!

I think it would be a stupid idea all together.  I did mention earlier about Admin stating they wanted a model only forum but I bet they wouldn't have a photographer only forum.  In the end that was more to prove a point because they tried that very thing once before and pissed a lot of people off.  Meaning that they created a model only forum but no others. I think restricted forums would suck all the way around and for everyone.  Well, nearly everyone.  There's aways going to be that 1 percent that is all for it.

More than once over the years I have seen this model or that say something to the effect of,  "This is for models and about models.  You shouldn't talk here."  On the same note, I have never once seen any photographer or anyone from any other group make such a self centered statement in their particular forum.  Perhaps they might say that a particular thread would be better suited else where but they have never been told that they weren't welcome.  That only comes from models and only a few of them at that.  Then to make maters worse some white knight Admin comes along and actually considers giving them what just a few want!

I look at it like this.  The forums on MM use to be a thriving place. They really aren't any more.  I frequent the Photographers forum and the General Industry forum.  These days there might be one new thread that's worth while in each of those every two weeks or so and both of those forums have nearly twice the activity of the model forum.  So go ahead Admin.  If you want to kill the forums completely give the models their "safe space" that perhaps only a small percentage of them actually want.  Sure traffic will pick up for a month or two because it will be "cool for them to have their own little world.  After a few months it will slow to a crawl and all but die out.

Sadly, you can't fairly give the models their own little world free of photographers without doing the same for us.  The real issue is that we don't require it and frankly we wouldn't even want it.  By banning models from the photographer forum you would screw it up.  By banning us from their forum you would also screw this one up.

So,  to the administartion, is the answer going to be a safe space for models and hypocrisy for the rest of the MM community or are you going to do the right thing?  My advice.  It's your site but it's our forum.  Don't screw with our forum when the only time you ever have anything to say, with the notable exception of the Model Mayhem Edu Admin,  is to shut someone up.

To the models:  Fell free to swing by the Photographer's forum anytime you like.  You will always be welcome.

j francis photography wrote:
As a model...

Would you rather get silence and gradually understand that to be a no? Or would you rather see a definite answer in your inbox that is a polite no?

I would like a hard no and preferably a reason as to why (within respectable diction). Because I personally remember everyone who hasn't responded and kept me on read and it's not going to attract the best karma down the road

SayCheeZ!  wrote:
a polite no

That's what separates the amateurs from the professionals.
A polite no means I can continue seeking someone suitable for a project.

No reply will leave a person hanging, which means they're probably a flake, too.

I've referred several models (and other types of employees) to other employers even though they've turned down an offer from me, but if they're too lazy or stuck on themselves to politely give me a yes, no, or "can I get more information before making a decision" I'm gonna be too lazy t refer them to someone else.  I'll also block them on MM to ensure that I'll never 'bother' them again.

For that reason there's been a few models that missed a great gig that they never even knew they had.

Hi,
A no reply or a polite no are very close, however the polite no will help prevent me from re-sending a post asking for another try.
Jen-believer that photographers are encouraged to answer questions too

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Please forgive me for butting in.  However, I feel that this impacts all of us.  I am not trying to talk over models or silence anyone's opinion.  ... "

Non models can reply. Models can equally choose to ignore, read, engage or derail the topic over it. I react to the reacting though because I get so distracted away from the topic by the derail pointing out that a non model posted and the injustice of it. I'll work on ignoring "that" myself.

Jen

Mizz Amanda Marie wrote:
And if we're already talking about shooting and you suddenly stop answering me, that is not a "no answer is an answer" scenario. That is rude, and it affects my life.

I quite agree, and that has happened to me quite a few times. I try approaching someone about a possible photoshoot, probably based on something they said in their profile. Communication starts and some messages are exchanged. All seems okay, and the model seems keen - until they suddenly stop responding. Which leaves me to think -  did I say something wrong in my last message, have they suddenly changed their mind and why?  How can I fix this?  All I can do is just let the idea drop, accept that the shoot, which I was looking forward to, is dead in the water, and blame myself for the failure. I sometimes wonder if there's a conspiracy or it's just I'm having a run of bad luck.

Keith