LONDON Fashion wrote:
Models who have a year or less experience: if I may make a few suggestions:

1) If you don't have many professional photos to post on your port, that's understandable. We all started there at one point. But DO make sure to link to your instagram and DO make sure it's not marked as 'private'.

Busy photographers will not take the time to contact you and request you make your instagram public. They will just move on to the next profile.


2) TFP is the way to build your port if you are new. If you are serious about modeling, book as much TFP as you can possibly afford to do. Seek out amazing photographers (check their ports) and see if they would be willing to work with you. If they are not, seek out photographers not quite as good and start there.

If you want to get paid to build your port, you have a complete mis-understanding of the investment a good photographer makes to get to where he is, as well as how much time he invests in your shoot.

Yes, models invest time in prepping their hair, make-up, traveling to/from the shoot, and modeling itself.

Photographers -- good ones anyway -- invest years training, time prepping for a shoot (scouting locations, thinking about concepts), and often many hours after a shoot editing images. Often the time they invest in a shoot far exceeds the investment a model makes.

The best way of understanding how TFP works is this:
- Models pay a photographer for a shoot (to develop her port) if the photographer's experience and skill far exceeds hers.
- Photographers pay models for a shoot (to develop his port) if the model's experience and skill far exceeds his.
- Models and photographers do TFP when both are of a fairly similar experience level, and/or mutually feel each can benefit the other.

Of course, you are welcome to *try* to get paid while building your port, but that will likely be an exercise in frustration.

I disagree with much of this - but since there are fewer and fewer models participating in this forum - I dont see much point in elaborating

Garry k wrote:
I disagree with much of this - but since there are fewer and fewer models participating in this forum - I dont see much point in elaborating

Well, *I'm* curious. ;-)

samivisconti wrote:

Look at the Photographers prior work: Can they produce  better images than You already have in Your portfolio?  Is the shoot concept (always have a concept or game plan going in) something You'd like to do?  How about references? 

If You're ok with all of those then why not do the shoot?

There's a Model forum around here somewhere, the more experienced will help You out I'm sure.

GM Photography wrote:
I really wish that models would have posted in the photography forum when I was first getting started to explain to me how the photography world works.  That would have been so helpful.

+1

Imagine if a model had even posted this information in the Photography forum with this faulty information. He/she would have been pilloried.

Maybe it is time to establish a policy that threads in a Model Colloquy can be created only by members with a Model profile; responses could come from anyone. Photographers with model-specific questions can raise them in the general forum.

LONDON Fashion wrote:
The best way of understanding how TFP works is this:
- Models pay a photographer for a shoot (to develop her port) if the photographer's experience and skill far exceeds hers.
- Photographers pay models for a shoot (to develop his port) if the model's experience and skill far exceeds his.
- Models and photographers do TFP when both are of a fairly similar experience level, and/or mutually feel each can benefit the other.

Of course, you are welcome to *try* to get paid while building your port, but that will likely be an exercise in frustration.

Models, Please disregard any (attempts at) information in this thread. The quoted section above is particularly inaccurate. The first two points are unrelated to TFP. The third point while not wholly inaccurate is grossly incomplete.

Like another poster indicated, there is too much wrong with the original post to dissect.

samivisconti wrote:
So as a new, inexperienced model would you recommend I not do a TF with a more experienced photographer even if they're willing or approached me? Or that I not approach a much more experienced photographer but accept offers that they propose?

By all means shoot with the best photographers you can, esp. if they're willing to do TF with you.

GM Photography wrote:
I really wish that models would have posted in the photography forum when I was first getting started to explain to me how the photography world works.  That would have been so helpful.

Honestly, a post on how to work with models wouldn't be a bad thing for new photographers, such as how he can understand and respect their need for safety, ways he can interact with them in a professional manner, etc. etc.

samivisconti wrote:
So as a new, inexperienced model would you recommend I not do a TF with a more experienced photographer even if they're willing or approached me? Or that I not approach a much more experienced photographer but accept offers that they propose?

As an inexperienced model, there is much to recommend working with as many photographers as you can, irrespective of their abilities, so that you develop a better perspective of what can and cannot be achieved.  Experience brings better judgement and better judgement brings greater success.

Rachel Jay wrote:
Photographers offering condescending advice: A Few Suggestions

1) If you want to see additional photos of a model, and her instagram is marked private, you're probably not going to find professional photos there. If you're sooooooo busy, you're probably not going to want to sift through pics of her dog/cat, pretty Starbucks drinks, and cute Snapchat filters to find what you're looking for. Consider sending the model a message on the modeling site you've found her on to ask for polaroids.

2) Telling models to build their portfolio via "as much TFP" as they can book is stupid. Being a TFP whore can result in tons of sub-par images. New models are far better off paying a good photographer or two for headshots and images that suit the direction they want to go with their modeling, whether that be glamour, fashion, commercial, etc. New models should only trade when it benefits their portfolio.

The best way of understanding how TFP works is this:
- "TFP" means "Time for Photos" or (for us oldies) "Time for Prints". That means that the involved parties exchange their time for the resulting images.
- Sometimes, the involved parties might trade other things, like wardrobe, for images. Some refer to this as bartering, or call it TF*.
- People working on a trade basis should always try to trade up. No one builds anything worthwhile if they trade down or work laterally.
- When money exchanges hands, it is no longer a TFP shoot.

3) The second photoshoot I booked was a paid shoot. It wasn't nude or fetish. I also got a couple of images from the photographer (I asked nicely) to use for my portfolio. I also modeled for numerous workshops over the years I spent in front of cameras. I got paid for them, but often got photos sent to me from those who took the workshops to use in my portfolio, and sometimes, I did.

It is entirely possible, though not the norm, to get paid and get images you can use for your portfolio.

If you don't want to pay a model new model, that's fine. Some photographers, who spend years crafting their skills, understand the value in paying the person who fits the look they need, regardless of experience.

Of course, you are welcome to *try* to give advice to new models by coming across as a douche in the modeling forum, but it will likely be an exercise in eye-rolling for actual models who read it.

Thank You

LONDON Fashion wrote:
Models who have a year or less experience: if I may make a few suggestions:

1) If you don't have many professional photos to post on your port, that's understandable. We all started there at one point. But DO make sure to link to your instagram and DO make sure it's not marked as 'private'.

Busy photographers will not take the time to contact you and request you make your instagram public. They will just move on to the next profile.


2) TFP is the way to build your port if you are new. If you are serious about modeling, book as much TFP as you can possibly afford to do. Seek out amazing photographers (check their ports) and see if they would be willing to work with you. If they are not, seek out photographers not quite as good and start there.

If you want to get paid to build your port, you have a complete mis-understanding of the investment a good photographer makes to get to where he is, as well as how much time he invests in your shoot.

Yes, models invest time in prepping their hair, make-up, traveling to/from the shoot, and modeling itself.

Photographers -- good ones anyway -- invest years training, time prepping for a shoot (scouting locations, thinking about concepts), and often many hours after a shoot editing images. Often the time they invest in a shoot far exceeds the investment a model makes.

The best way of understanding how TFP works is this:
- Models pay a photographer for a shoot (to develop her port) if the photographer's experience and skill far exceeds hers.
- Photographers pay models for a shoot (to develop his port) if the model's experience and skill far exceeds his.
- Models and photographers do TFP when both are of a fairly similar experience level, and/or mutually feel each can benefit the other.

Of course, you are welcome to *try* to get paid while building your port, but that will likely be an exercise in frustration.

While this is all good advice, I'd add, don't be afraid to pay a few photographers.  Get as much trade as you can, but if the photographer's really good, and charging, don't be afraid to shell out the cash.  This goes for photographers starting out too.  I have paid more than a few models in my time when I was beginning.  It's just the way it is.

Rachel Jay wrote:
1) If you want to see additional photos of a model, and her instagram is marked private, you're probably not going to find professional photos there. If you're sooooooo busy, you're probably not going to want to sift through pics of her dog/cat, pretty Starbucks drinks, and cute Snapchat filters to find what you're looking for. Consider sending the model a message on the modeling site you've found her on to ask for polaroids.

It sounds like you're thinking of agency models, who yes, have polaroids.

My experience is that 99% of new models on this site don't have polaroids.

Most, DO, however, have an instagram, and unlike your implication, it's not filled with their dog or cat. It's filled with photos of them. You're right, they aren't professional photos, but that's exactly the point -- it shows me what THEY look like, just like a polaroid.

Finally, if I'm sorting through hundreds of models, I'm not going to message every single one who has no useful photos in her port, and no way to click a link to quickly see other photos of her. Hence, the point of this message: to save new models from being completely overlooked by most.

Again, I'm not sure how that gesture -- genuinely with good intention on my part -- requires a snarky response.

In some cases when I have reached out to a model mentioning to her that her instagram is private, she has thanked me, expressing that she did not realize this was the case (and changed it). So again, not sure why this is an unkind suggestion to make.

LONDON Fashion wrote:
Most, DO, however, have an instagram, and unlike your implication, it's not filled with their dog or cat. It's filled with photos of them. You're right, they aren't professional photos, but that's exactly the point -- it shows me what THEY look like, just like a polaroid.

You might want to google instagram filters.

PHP-Photography wrote:
You might want to google instagram filters.

annoying asf.

Blatantly over processed images seem to the acceptable norm these days on social media, in reality the vast majority look nothing like their online presence, not even close.

PHP-Photography wrote:
A model will get paid from day 1 if he/she has "the look".

sure, and or does nudity.  I understand many models are trying to get paid.  On this site the easiest way is to do sexy or nude modelling.  That is the experience that I have come away with from the models I have met on this site.

Rachel Jay wrote:
Photographers offering condescending advice: A Few Suggestions

1) If you want to see additional photos of a model, and her instagram is marked private, you're probably not going to find professional photos there. If you're sooooooo busy, you're probably not going to want to sift through pics of her dog/cat, pretty Starbucks drinks, and cute Snapchat filters to find what you're looking for..

What you are missing is that there are other models on here, who link to their instagram, from their profile here....
But they have it set to private.

They need to either make it public, or stop linking it from their profile here.

Philip Brown wrote:

What you are missing is that there are other models on here, who link to their instagram, from their profile here....
But they have it set to private.

They need to either make it public, or stop linking it from their profile here.

or maybe they just want to select which photographers they allow to view their IG

Garry k wrote:

or maybe they just want to select which photographers they allow to view their IG

in which case, they are very silly, because like OP wrote at one point, many photographers wont bother to ask; they'll just move on.

If they want to be "selective" about who views their IG, they shouldnt link it from their public MM profile?

Philip Brown wrote:
in which case, they are very silly, because like OP wrote at one point, many photographers wont bother to ask; they'll just move on.

If they want to be "selective" about who views their IG, they shouldnt link it from their public MM profile?

Models do as Models do

There is not shortage of Photographers wanting to work with Top Models in major markets

Imagine yourself being a Model who say attracts the attentions of hundreds of want to be photographers but really is looking to shoot with a smaller group of select  experienced shooters

PHP-Photography wrote:
A model will get paid from day 1 if he/she has "the look".

Garry k wrote:
Let me pose a question to the OP

If you had the opportunity to say meet a future top fashion model at the start of her journey  and possibly do a shoot with her - would it not be worth spending a few bucks to seal the deal ?

In  fashion - there can be a very small window between an aspiring model taking her first steps into that world and signing with an Agency who will seize control and only allow her to shoot with a small and exclusive number of photographers in order to build her book - in preparation for her to be marketed for commercial projects

And if You were fortunate enough to shoot with such a model ( and pay her a little $ in trhe process ) what do you think those pictures ( if taken well ) could do for your career?

Good point.

To answer your question... maaaaybe.

Because I have found that absolute beginner models are usually really, really bad at not only posing, but also at conveying any kind of useful emotion or expression on their face. I find when returning from TFP shoots with new models that 95% of the photos are not usable, whereas with an experienced model only some 10% to 20% are unusable (and much of that not the model's fault).

Would I pay an absolute beginner model who might be the next supermodel? Maybe. But her current port would have to have at least SOME photos that let me see what she looks like... that show this potential, as well as at least the potential to make a decent expression with her face. And my original message was written with ports in mind that are so new or bad that they don't show what the model looks like at all, and what they do show only shows her in the worst light. And she wants $150 or more to start building her port.

Garry k wrote:
Let me pose a question to the OP

If you had the opportunity to say meet a future top fashion model at the start of her journey  and possibly do a shoot with her - would it not be worth spending a few bucks to seal the deal ?

In  fashion - there can be a very small window between an aspiring model taking her first steps into that world and signing with an Agency who will seize control and only allow her to shoot with a small and exclusive number of photographers in order to build her book - in preparation for her to be marketed for commercial projects

And if You were fortunate enough to shoot with such a model ( and pay her a little $ in trhe process ) what do you think those pictures ( if taken well ) could do for your career?

I'm not the original poster but no, I absolutely would not.

If I'm doing portfolio development or testing ideas thats TFP. I only pay a model if I intend to sell a picture/print. And I ALWAYS pay the model if I intend to sell the picture/print.

For me this is a business, I have to operate it as such.

Eleven 11 Photography wrote:

I'm not the original poster but no, I absolutely would not.

If I'm doing portfolio development or testing ideas thats TFP. I only pay a model if I intend to sell a picture/print. And I ALWAYS pay the model if I intend to sell the picture/print.

For me this is a business, I have to operate it as such.

Well - I don't do photography as a business ( just a hobby )

But if I did - I think my view would be that sometimes you need to spend a bit of money to make more money

LONDON Fashion wrote:
Because I have found that absolute beginner models are usually really, really bad at not only posing

Isn't directing the model your job ?

Garry k wrote:

Well - I don't do photography as a business ( just a hobby )

But if I did - I think my view would be that sometimes you need to spend a bit of money to make more money

For me it's a business and a hobby so I have to be very careful in my approach or my business stops making money.

Here's the thing, its possible that you could find the next Giselle, shoot her before she becomes a Gisselle and those pictures become valuable or lead to some amount of exposure that leads to paying work. Its POSSIBLE. But it's not PLAUSIBLE.

Mostly because even for the professionals among us most of us don't move in the circles where that means something. Having taken a picture of the next big thing is not easily leveraged into new/more assignments. If there was a way to know that spending that money would make money you have a point, but there is now solid connection between those points.

Heck my business is 60% weddings, 10% art prints, 30% commercial work. With that 10% art prints I'm kind of positioned in a way that I suppose I could capitalize on having a bodyscape of someone who becomes a big whoop. With my commercial portfolio having a Cosmo cover model in there might open some doors. But even in my scenario I wouldn't put money on it.

And if you live in a bigger city like London, New York, DC, Rome you could meet dozens of girls with the physical goods to be the next big thing. Thats just a lot of gambling.

Besides which while I don't stand with the OP on a lot of his points, I do agree that good photography is just as valuable as good modeling. When I want to work on an art project if I do it in a city I have no problem getting models to work with, even models who don't typically do TFP. They recognize that my photography has value and will add to their ports as well as my own. That and I have a pretty stellar reputation among the models I shoot. No creepiness, quick turnaround on images and plentiful images.

PHP-Photography wrote:

Isn't directing the model your job ?

It definitely is but I've had some "models" who just aren't fit for the work. It's not that I can't direct them to a good picture, its that it takes to long to get there and they produce to few of them in a session.

Eleven 11 Photography wrote:

It definitely is but I've had some "models" who just aren't fit for the work. It's not that I can't direct them to a good picture, its that it takes to long to get there and they produce to few of them in a session.

Nothing worse than that "deer frozen in the headlights " state that some brand new models start out with

Eleven 11 Photography wrote:
For me it's a business and a hobby so I have to be very careful in my approach or my business stops making money.

Here's the thing, its possible that you could find the next Giselle, shoot her before she becomes a Gisselle and those pictures become valuable or lead to some amount of exposure that leads to paying work. Its POSSIBLE. But it's not PLAUSIBLE.

Mostly because even for the professionals among us most of us don't move in the circles where that means something. Having taken a picture of the next big thing is not easily leveraged into new/more assignments. If there was a way to know that spending that money would make money you have a point, but there is now solid connection between those points.

Heck my business is 60% weddings, 10% art prints, 30% commercial work. With that 10% art prints I'm kind of positioned in a way that I suppose I could capitalize on having a bodyscape of someone who becomes a big whoop. With my commercial portfolio having a Cosmo cover model in there might open some doors. But even in my scenario I wouldn't put money on it.

And if you live in a bigger city like London, New York, DC, Rome you could meet dozens of girls with the physical goods to be the next big thing. Thats just a lot of gambling.

Besides which while I don't stand with the OP on a lot of his points, I do agree that good photography is just as valuable as good modeling. When I want to work on an art project if I do it in a city I have no problem getting models to work with, even models who don't typically do TFP. They recognize that my photography has value and will add to their ports as well as my own. That and I have a pretty stellar reputation among the models I shoot. No creepiness, quick turnaround on images and plentiful images.

I hear you

From what I've heard from my professional photographer friends ( in my city ) their real money is made through shooting a diverse range of things - Weddings , Headshots for Actors ( we are a tv and film city ) and Real Estate Agents/ Business Types , Corporate and Entertainment Events . Nature Photography/Art Prints etc . Commercial Work ...Fashion is way down the list in terms of bringing in any income .....but many pro photographers here like to shoot some of it ( perhaps out of personal interest or maybe the resulting imagary makes them appear to be more well rounded as a photographer )

Sadly I never knew the young Giselle either - but I did know the young Coco Rocha and did a trade shoot with her when she was 17 . The resulting photos brought me some local credibility and  attention after she made it big .( so in hindsight I think I would have been willing to have paid her a bit for the shoot if i had been asked ) ..and local models became more interested in shooting with me . I guess I could have made an attempt to monetize this in shooting other aspiring models for some coin- but I am really not about not trying to make money with my camera ( having tried it with such things as weddings and not feeling very satisfied doing so )

PHP-Photography wrote:
Isn't directing the model your job ?

Sounds kinda like saying, if an actor in a stage performance performs like a block of wood, it's all the Director's fault.