Camera Buff wrote:

Jen B, when I said goodbye and every happiness to you, I was announcing my departure from this conversation. I was not dismissing you from the convo.

This shows how easy it can be to unwittingly say something to someone with the best of intentions, but it ends up being taken the wrong way.

Disclaimer:   I really, really like Jen.  "  This shows how easy it can be to unwittingly say something to someone with the best of intentions, but it ends up being taken the wrong way." This is why these kinds of threads are a bad idea.   A innocent remark becomes sinister.  A silly joke is taken as a sexual come on.   Part of being a mature adult is learning to not be easily offended and if someone says something to you that you don't like or understand then ask them what they mean.

Years ago when I assisted, an agency model arrived at the studio of a pro shooter for a paid catalog shoot.    This guy was a fun, silly dude and he called her sexy.   I'm guessing some here will pop in with how dare he and how unprofessional, etc.   Yet she was all that and more.  The model mentioned this to her booker and days later I heard she was removed from the agency.  I think most of us know how to be polite and professional.   Yet sometimes we misspeak or take liberties with what what we say.   In life its a good idea to have a thick skin.   What you said to Jen is what can easily happen.   Were you dismissing her from the conversation.   The ever happiness add on suggested so but you returned to clean things up.   Perhaps what might have been better to say  was you were done with the thread.     

Back to the photographer who called models, sexy.   How dare he!   I've heard him say similar things to models who might have been aware he was gay.   That offended model made a big deal about a off handed remark.   Was she right to do so?   I can't say but I will say when folks have to always walk on egg shells around you.   Its a turn off.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Back to the photographer who called models, sexy.   How dare he!   I've heard him say similar things to models who might have been aware he was gay.   That offended model made a big deal about a off handed remark.   Was she right to do so?   I can't say but I will say when folks have to always walk on egg shells around you.   Its a turn off.

Some women want to be sexy. So much depends on the tone of voice, rapport, etc.

"One man's meat is another man's poison."

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Years ago when I assisted, an agency model arrived at the studio of a pro shooter for a paid catalog shoot.    This guy was a fun, silly dude and he called her sexy.   I'm guessing some here will pop in with how dare he and how unprofessional, etc.

I won't disappoint you by popping in some advice:

If you wouldn’t say it to a male colleague, you need to stop and ask yourself, why is it appropriate then, to say it to a female colleague?

Camera Buff wrote:
If you wouldn’t say it to a male colleague, you need to stop and ask yourself, why is it appropriate then, to say it to a female colleague?

Actually I have a "List of Hot Males"

Mark Salo wrote:
Some women want to be sexy. So much depends on the tone of voice, rapport, etc.

"One man's meat is another man's poison."

Some women are not opposed to a date telling them they look beautiful, or sexy, or any version thereof  ...
the difference is, a model is not on a date, they're at work to get a job done.

Camera Buff wrote:
I won't disappoint you by popping in some advice:

If you wouldn’t say it to a male colleague, you need to stop and ask yourself, why is it appropriate then, to say it to a female colleague?

The problem with so-called “compliments” like this in the work environment, is, rather than elevate the receiver, what they actually do is systematically reduce their currency to their appearance.

At best, it’s a self-serving exercise, and at worst, it’s sexual harassment. And while most of us think of sexual harassment as the more overt, sleazy, Harvey Weinstein kind that’s been dominating popular media, the reality is, sexual harassment is any kind of unwanted attention that makes someone feel uncomfortable.

Remember, sexual harassment can happen to males too, and not necessarily by females.

C'mon dude.   This is an industry based on physical attributes.   If you're a model and a photographer says you're pretty or an outfit looks sexy and you're offended then you're in the wrong industry.   I notice you have no male models and what a man might say to another man could certainly be different then what they might say to a woman.   I wouldn't call a man pretty for example.   This however is a large part of the problem.    "sexual harassment is any kind of unwanted attention that makes someone feel uncomfortable."   How would I know what makes anyone uncomfortable unless they tell me.   Sure some things are so outrageous that a reasonable person might be offended, being called sexy not among them.   At least to me.   If its a problem for a model then he/she should say so.   

On that note I've been around plenty of female models who have said things that might make a sailor blush.   Some have said things to me.   However lets all make just yes and no  responses and no jokes.   After all the models were hired based on their MENSA scores.   You remind me of the SJW posts see all the time.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
How would I know what makes anyone uncomfortable unless they tell me.

This precisely is what the OP is asking models to tell him/us.

Obviously the model in your story from years ago was uncomfortable with what was said to/about her. So much so that she felt it necessary to report the incident to her Agency Booker.

Do you think that an Agency today that turned a blind eye and removed a model from their books for reporting improper behaviours in the workplace is doing the right thing?

Camera Buff wrote:

This precisely is what the OP is asking models to tell him/us.

Obviously the model in your story from years ago was uncomfortable with what was said to/about her. So much so that she felt it necessary to report the incident to her Agency Booker.

Do you think that an Agency today that turned a blind eye and removed a model from their books for reporting improper behaviours in the workplace is doing the right thing?

I think that some folks make a big deal out of nothing.   Some people take offense at the slightest thing.   I had a friend like that.   She was always offended over something.   Something said to her by friends always had a hidden meaning or insult.   In today's world even with the me too movement folks roll their eyes about certain things.   If a gay man calling you sexy or heck a straight man at a shoot is really a big deal then perhaps you're in the wrong business.   Now I'm guessing my remarks may be mentioned in the models aka female only super secret forum or here and my guess is I won't be called sexy.

Life's better overall when you able to discern  a harmless remark from one not so much.   With that I bid you farewell.   Meaning I'm done with my comments but please by all means continue.

Camera Buff wrote:

I won't disappoint you by popping in some advice:

If you wouldn’t say it to a male colleague, you need to stop and ask yourself, why is it appropriate then, to say it to a female colleague?

I don;t know about You but I still live in a world where most Women like to be told that they look Beautiful and most Men would  prefer not to be told that

Garry k wrote:
I don;t know about You but I still live in a world where most Women like to be told that they look Beautiful and most Men would  prefer not to be told that

"A world where most women like to be told that they look beautiful and most men would prefer ... to be told they look handsome."

In certain circumstances, places and ways it is totally acceptable to tell someone they are beautiful. However, I work for a corporation that has a zero tolerance for Sexual Harassment and any complaint is handled very seriously. Many of my work colleagues are females, some are high ranking managers. A couple have modelled for me and I treat them with the same level of respect and Political Correctness (PC) in front of my camera as I do when we are in the workplace.

On a more positive and pleasing note, there are many members on MM today who make mature, constructive and PC comments about the beautiful pictures they see of models.

Camera Buff wrote:

A world where most women like to be told that they look beautiful and most men would would prefer ... to be told they look handsome.

In certain circumstances, places and ways it is totally acceptable to tell someone they are beautiful. However, I work for a corporation that has a zero tolerance for Sexual Harassment and any complaint is handled very seriously. Many of my work colleagues are females, some are high ranking managers. A couple have modelled for me and I treat them with the same level of respect and political correctness in front of my camera as I do when we are in the workplace.

What I am about to say next may be difficult for some here to believe ... but on two different occasions outside of my work life, men, who were complete strangers to me, have told me I am beautiful. In both cases I was physically assaulted. In both cases I reported these incidents to the appropriate authority, in both cases my reports were ignored. (BTW These men were not photographers, or priests.)

On a more positive and pleasing note, there are many members on MM today who make mature, constructive and PC comments about the beautiful pictures they see of models.

There are far different rules in the corporate world than in the model photography world - and i would recommend that you keep your activities in those 2 worlds separated

I know of a local nude art photographer who was fired from his corporate world job because he was viewed as sexually harassing a female coworker when he asked her if she would model for him

I am sorry to hear that you were assaulted

words can take on different meanings in the different regions they are used . Perhaps in your part of the world - One man telling another that he is beautiful is some sort of insult - I dont know

I do know that in my part of the world that its still   ok for a photographer to tell a female model that she is beautiful ( and a photographer to tell a male model that he is handsome ) ,,,In fact a model may not feel validated unless they hear at least that

Garry k wrote:
There are far different rules in the corporate world than in the model photography world - and i would recommend that you keep your activities in those 2 worlds separated.

I know of a local nude art photographer who was fired from his corporate world job because he was viewed as sexually harassing a female coworker when he asked her if she would model for him.

Good advice and I do keep them separated and well insulated from each other. BTW, I was initially approached by my employer to shoot their Corporate Profile Headshots. The private shoots happened later and well away from work. I also don't shoot any nude work.

Garry k wrote:
I do know that in my part of the world that its still   ok for a photographer to tell a female model that she is beautiful ( and a photographer to tell a male model that he is handsome ) ,,,In fact a model may not feel validated unless they hear at least that

Their Body makes someone Sexy ... Their Face makes them Pretty ... Their Personality makes them Beautiful.

Camera Buff wrote:
Good advice and I do keep them separated and well insulated from each other. BTW, I was initially approached by my employer to shoot their Corporate Profile Headshots. The private shoots happened later and well away from work. I also don't shoot any nude work.


Their Body makes someone Sexy ... Their Face makes them Pretty ... Their Personality makes them Beautiful.

I would simply advise that Photographers not use any sexualized language ( including calling a Model " sexy ) unless they know each other well and intentions are mutually understood and accepted

Tony Lawrence wrote:
in the models aka female only super secret forum

Why are some photographers here so worked up about models only forum ?

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Disclaimer:   I really, really like Jen.  "  This shows how easy it can be to unwittingly say something to someone with the best of intentions, but it ends up being taken the wrong way." This is why these kinds of threads are a bad idea.   A innocent remark becomes sinister.  A silly joke is taken as a sexual come on.   Part of being a mature adult is learning to not be easily offended and if someone says something to you that you don't like or understand then ask them what they mean.

Years ago when I assisted, an agency model arrived at the studio of a pro shooter for a paid catalog shoot.    This guy was a fun, silly dude and he called her sexy.   I'm guessing some here will pop in with how dare he and how unprofessional, etc.   Yet she was all that and more.  The model mentioned this to her booker and days later I heard she was removed from the agency.  I think most of us know how to be polite and professional.   Yet sometimes we misspeak or take liberties with what what we say.   In life its a good idea to have a thick skin.   What you said to Jen is what can easily happen.   Were you dismissing her from the conversation.   The ever happiness add on suggested so but you returned to clean things up.   Perhaps what might have been better to say  was you were done with the thread.     

Back to the photographer who called models, sexy.   How dare he!   I've heard him say similar things to models who might have been aware he was gay.   That offended model made a big deal about a off handed remark.   Was she right to do so?   I can't say but I will say when folks have to always walk on egg shells around you.   Its a turn off.

It really depends on the context of the situation . What if the Photographer were 60 years of age . the Model was 16 - would your view on the situation change ?

Also with respect to the Agency response in your scenario - You well know that the majority of agencies view their Models simply as commodities to make $ from .They generally want to protect their Models from any real harm - but will tolerate a lot  that is less than that ( from high profile clients and photographers )  in their efforts to make money

Think about the Terry Richardson situation for a minute - What did it really take for his Mainstream Fashion Career to grind to a halt .... It took the courage of individual Models to finally speak out publicly ( and be heard )  about his behavior towards them . Behavior that was known  and tolerated within "the industry " for years - even sensationalized in the form of Photographry Exhibits and Books containing graphic photos of his conquests.. Did You ever hear anything about Agencies protecting their Models from this Guy until the Models themselves broke the Code of Silence ?

Figures Jen B wrote:

Hahaha,

Well, I've been dismissed. Triggered, nah. Enjoy my having been dismissed from the convo. Talk smack away. These very common threads asking for this generally have only turned into a smackdown about nasty photographers. I thought that was one of the reasons we have the secret locked down Models only forum.

Anyhow, he was asking about skeez photographers, (his words.)

There is no secret locked down models only forum on MM, if that is what you are implying.

And it wouldn’t be started to talk “smack”.

Images by SeanK Photo wrote:
There is no secret locked down models only forum on MM, if that is what you are implying.

Has it been shut down? Or are you just quibbling over terminology?

PHP-Photography wrote:
Why are some photographers here so worked up about models only forum ?

Note: interjecting into this sidebar here.

I am a model and I am very anti-models only forum too. I look there now and have posted there though. I am worked up about it, since it was first discussed. Multiple edits: I just think it causes more division but, it doesn't matter anymore, it is there.

Why not have a separate site instead of a secret forum.

Jen
edit:  SeanK, yes, there is a secret forum that is locked for female models only... among the regular conversations are threads started where the OP will either "process" an event in a venting manner, sometimes there is outings, (several outings,) and what not, mostly always though the models there will respond rationally just like photographers used to. However if a photographer had dared answer the way the models now do they were bashed by those very same models for being 'mansplaining.' SeanK maybe you could ask your model friends about it.

Jen B wrote:

Note: interjecting into this sidebar here.

I am a model and I am very anti-models only forum too. I look there now and have posted there though. I am worked up about it, since it was first discussed. Multiple edits: I just think it causes more division but, it doesn't matter anymore, it is there.

Why not have a separate site instead of a secret forum.

Jen
edit:  SeanK, yes, there is a secret forum that is locked for female models only... among the regular conversations are threads started where the OP will either "process" an event in a venting manner, sometimes there is outings, (several outings,) and what not, mostly always though the models there will respond rationally just like photographers used to. However if a photographer had dared answer the way the models now do they were bashed by those very same models for being 'mansplaining.' SeanK maybe you could ask your model friends about it.

Just did. Just asked several. And not one of them can say they know what you are talking about. So that I am clear, you are saying the MM has a secret female only model forum section where models can go and do things like out photographers? Something they are absolutely against here in the public forums?

Maybe another female model can chime in here and validate her claim?

Images by SeanK Photo wrote:

Just did. Just asked several. And not one of them can say they know what you are talking about. So that I am clear, you are saying the MM has a secret female only model forum section where models can go and do things like out photographers? Something they are absolutely against here in the public forums?

Maybe another female model can chime in here and validate her claim?

Yes, there is a special model's forum!

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

Yes, there is a special model's forum!

Good to know! How does a female model become a member of this special forum? I know several models that would love to see all the outed (without getting the other side of the story) photographers that have something posted about them on there!

Guess the no outing rule only applies to certain forums here and not all of them!

Images by SeanK Photo wrote:

Good to know! How does a female model become a member of this special forum? I know several models that would love to see all the outed (without getting the other side of the story) photographers that have something posted about them on there!

Guess the no outing rule only applies to certain forums here and not all of them!

Actually it is a sexist rule. Only female models can out. Not sure male models are allowed.

Herman Surkis wrote:
Some of the arguments here are pretty silly.

That's a broad statement to make as a lead into your post.

How about some of your arguments Herman? Any pretty silly ones, or are all your arguments pretty sensible and rational?
----------------------------
I don't believe the OP was asking models to out or vent on photographers, or to discuss politically correct terminologies per se.

His question, which was directed toward models, was what are some of the supposedly 'harmless comments' that photographers have said to them that has made them feel uncomfortable. The skeez reference was IMO unhelpful and perhaps simply said to define a boundary.

That said, if at any time a model starts feeling uncomfortable with the behaviour of someone on the set, or are uncomfortable with the direction their shoot may be heading. They are within their rights to say 'Stop'! And if the misbehaviour continues, to end and leave the shoot.

The greatest power an independent (or any) model has over the control of their image is before each photograph is taken.

For example if a photographer unexpectedly suggests that the model does something that they are not totally comfortable with. Then they shouldn't do it. Otherwise they may well end up regretting the outcome.

Mark Salo wrote:
Actually I have a "List of Hot Males"

I was unable to access your Profile Page to view your "List of Hot Males" (Member #521621 was not found). However, I was able to view your portfolio images.

Maybe there's a problem with the link, or maybe you've locked it.

Images by SeanK Photo wrote:

Just did. Just asked several. And not one of them can say they know what you are talking about. So that I am clear, you are saying the MM has a secret female only model forum section where models can go and do things like out photographers? Something they are absolutely against here in the public forums?

Maybe another female model can chime in here and validate her claim?

Until another person can validate my claim then.

Although, if your female model friends say there isn't a forum then I suspect that is the only validation you need. How would another stranger change your mind from what your friends say isn't here, right? Btw, do they actually visit the forums?
Jen

Herman Surkis wrote:
There are things you could say to Jen, that you would not say to a 16yr old.

Hello and I totally agree.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
SeanK:

I just did a search for "models only forum" and got a couple pages of posts.  Somewhere in there, in the last year, other models have mentioned it.  I also remember when it was formed and the mods berated one particular photographer in the site forums, claiming his behavior pushed the formation of it, or something along those lines.

You can check with the mods, too.

We have been discussing the female model's only forum since its inception. There was a significant thread or two on the matter.  We have been told that the same rules apply in the female model's only forum, but we have heard stories of outing.  Jen has previously confirmed that this happens.  I believe Jen.  (I am also sucking up to her.)    Best model ever.

Hi, Oh gosh thank you but trust that any flattery or sucking up just whizzes past my radar, !! I am a nerd and sometimes my radar for truth or perception can be autistically weird until a light bulb goes on. !

Camera Buff wrote:
Question: What might it take for a male model to be allowed into this secretive female models only forum?

Hmmm ...

Answer:  Perhaps a male model might first have to promise to read all the female members [TOP SECRET] posts with his eyes shut!

Well it is an exclusive female models only forum and for female models only, no men allowed so they can have a safe space, (or whatever.) Even just a few posts above I said I was bothered about it, it 'is' and whatever division it represented just 'is' likewise. It hadn't ballooned into anything great, the posts are limited and the outings that happen there don't go very far because, like the rest of MM, there isn't a lot of action happening there. Its an isolated community.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Do you get stressed out about what women are talking about when the women go to the restroom together?  Do you require an accounting of their restroom conversations?  Does your SO provide you with transcripts of her telephone conversations each day? 

Why does it matter if female models have their own forum?  They could do the same thing on Facebook and you aren't going to see the discussions there either.

Hi Hunter, I answered my question. So if you don't mind, I'll show some restraint and let you, or someone else, answer yours.

Jen B wrote:
Well it is an exclusive female models only forum and for female models only, no men allowed so they can have a safe space, (or whatever.) Even just a few posts above I said I was bothered about it, it 'is' and whatever division it represented just 'is' likewise. It hadn't ballooned into anything great, the posts are limited and the outings that happen there don't go very far because, like the rest of MM, there isn't a lot of action happening there. Its an isolated community.

Hi Jen B,  I can understand how some gender specific topics don't belong in a mixed gender forum. Secret women's business is no business of men.

Camera Buff wrote:
Hi Hunter, I answered my question. So if you don't mind, I'll show some restraint and let you, or someone else, answer yours.

Well, thank you very kindly.  But the question was put out there, not for you or anyone else specifically, but as a reality check for people that have an issue with the female model's forum.   I really didn't expect any answers.  Not that answers couldn't be fascinating.

Your post just happened to be above mine.  It wasn't meant to address you. 

Perhaps, I over used the word "you?"  Maybe it is an American thing.  Like the Victorian or royal "we," doesn't mean "us".  "You" can mean ya'll, or youz guys or you can be whomever it strikes a chord with.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Well, thank you very kindly.  But the question was put out there, not for you or anyone else specifically, but as a reality check for people that have an issue with the female model's forum.   I really didn't expect any answers.  Not that answers couldn't be fascinating.

Your post just happened to be above mine.  It was meant to address you. 

Perhaps, I over used the word "you?"  Maybe it is an American thing.  Like the Victorian or royal "we," doesn't mean "us".  "You" can mean ya'll, or youz guys or you can be whomever it strikes a chord with.

Hunter, As if I wasn't confused enough. Please See - 2nd paragraph; second sentence in your above post.

What ever do you mean? Was this statement a parapraxis?

GianCarlo Images wrote:
I have no idea what other photographers say to models but I say things like;

Chin up a bit.
Chin down a bit.
No, too much, up a little.
Hold it.
That's good don't move.
Focusing, focusing.
Turn a little towards the light please.
Ah, blinked, let's try that again, ready, one, two, click!
I'm sure there's more but this is off the top of my head.

I would add

watch the position of your feet
stand straight
shoulders back
turn you head x number of degrees
sweep the loose hair off or your face
hold that pose

Camera Buff wrote:
Hunter, As if I wasn't confused enough. Please See - 2nd paragraph; second sentence in your above post.

What ever do you mean? Was this statement a parapraxis?

Nope.  Typo.  Sorry.  Fixed it.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Nope.  Typo.  Sorry.  Fixed it.

Thanks Hunter!  Sorry to hear about what's happening with the spread of the virus in the US, as well as all over the world. Stay safe!