John Silva Photography wrote:
In the last four years the white supremacist, the racist, the militias, the homophobics and all the other ultra conservative groups have pretty much taken any past patriotic symbol and repurposed those symbols to represent and stand for their brand of conservative beliefs. Of all of our patriotic symbols non have been so abused as our national Stars and Stripes, the very flag that has represented American Democracy and American respect the world over.
Because of this, any large flag has become a symbol of representation of the ultra-conservative movement.
I don't need to get into what these movements represent but because of this hijacking of our American Flag to represent some of the most hateful movements this country has seen it has left me with a sense that to fly a large american flag is to buy into and represent and support these twisted conservative movements.
Before the past four years I had no problem with displaying a 3'x6' American flag. I don't mean strapping one to each side of my pick-up truck and cruising the strip with it, I mean just displaying it at my house. But now for fear of being associated with the skinheads and white supremacist which have all come crawling out from their mama's basements and out of their closets these last four years a large flag has taken on a completely new meaning in this country.
Just like Covid we'll get past this and back to normal but it may take a few years!
In the meantime, flying the Stars and Stripes probably won't happen for me, let alone get caught wearing a red hat!
Is it just me or do others feel the same way???
John

Sadly, you are not alone. It has been years since  felt I could fly the flag without one side or the other getting fired up about it. Last guy in my court who flew the flag on the Fourth got his house egged for his trouble...
--------------------------------------

A Fourth of July Symbol of Unity That May No Longer Unite

In a Long Island town, neighbors now make assumptions, true and sometimes false, about people who conspicuously display American flags.

By Sarah Maslin Nir
July 3, 2021
----  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/nyre … ation.html

SOUTHOLD, N.Y. — The American flag flies in paint on the side of Peter Treiber Jr.’s potato truck, a local landmark parked permanently on County Route 48, doing little more, he thought, than drawing attention to his family’s farm.

Until he tried to sell his produce.

At a local greenmarket where he sells things like wild bergamot, honey and sunflowers, he had trouble striking a deal until, he said, he let his liberal leanings slip out in conversation with a customer.

“She said, ‘Oh, whew. You know, I wasn’t so sure about you, I thought you were some flag-waving something-or-other,’” Mr. Treiber, 32, recalled the woman saying and citing his potato truck display. “That’s why she was apprehensive of interacting with me.”

[...]

Supporters of former President Donald J. Trump have embraced the flag so fervently — at his rallies, across conservative media and even during the Jan. 6 assault on the Capitol — that many liberals like Mr. Treiber worry that the left has all but ceded the national emblem to the right.

What was once a unifying symbol — there is a star on it for each state, after all — is now alienating to some, its stripes now fault lines between people who kneel while “The Star-Spangled Banner” plays and those for whom not pledging allegiance is an affront.

And it has made the celebration of the Fourth of July, of patriotic bunting and cakes with blueberries and strawberries arranged into Old Glory, into another cleft in a country that seems no longer quite so indivisible, under a flag threatening to fray.

[...]

John Silva Photography wrote:
...Is it just me or do others feel the same way???

Others feel the same way.
MANY OTHERS!

Recent events that you've described have stained the flag so much that it's going to take a few years of washing to restore it to its previous condition, but it will happen.

MoRina wrote:
People are literally dying to come here for the freedom and opportunity that you clearly take for granted.

Don’t worry. Trump’s wall will stop that.

😂

j_francis_imagery wrote:
Don’t worry. Trump’s wall will stop that.

😂

Two years ago I did a week long photo shoot along the Rio Grande in southwest Texas from Big Bend Nat'l Park to Presidio.  The locals I talked to thought building a wall there was a stupid idea.  BTW, when I waded into the Rio Grande, I made sure not to go more than half way.  Never knew if the boarder patrol guys were watching.  While shooting in New Mexico near Mexico, I triggered a sensor that got the attention of the boarder patrol.

j_francis_imagery wrote:

Don’t worry. Trump’s wall will stop that.

😂

Your comment is idiotic.
Maybe you haven't noticed but Trump is no longer president... Let it go... you'll be a lot happier.
My patriotism doesn't change no matter who is in the White House. And guess what? Our flag is flying in front of the white house right now. President Biden doesn't have a problem with flying our flag but if you think your little protests are productive, you do you.

MoRina wrote:
People are literally dying to come here for the freedom and opportunity that you clearly take for granted.
Perhaps you should step away from the computer and all the bullshit you're being fed by the media, look around you and find reasons to be proud and grateful.

Maybe there are more than a few naive ways of thinking here.
WHAT if anything does this have to do with those wanting to come here? Absolutely NOTHING! Did anyone say this country was NOT great or that we take it for granted?
This has nothing to do with how great this country is or what bullshit media you watch or listen to. It has to do with how the flag has come to be used and mean to some if not most people.
I watched yesterday, with my OWN two eyes and ears, the BS medias were NOWHERE in sight, as 3 pickup trucks with young twenty somethings drove at a pretty fast speed, I live in a rural area. The 3 all had at least 3x6 American flags affixed to the back of the beds flying in the wind. One had a Thin Blue Line flag as well as they drove honking their horns! Do YOU think they were conservatives or liberals???
Maybe your answer is that it's impossible to tell by their display and you'd be right but that would be pretty naive answer.
I won't even mention what I experienced in Oregon about 5 or 6 years ago but it made me uncomfortable enough that I got the hell outa town!!!
John

John Silva Photography wrote:

Maybe there are more than a few naive ways of thinking here.
WHAT if anything does this have to do with those wanting to come here? Absolutely NOTHING! Did anyone say this country was NOT great or that we take it for granted?
This has nothing to do with how great this country is or what bullshit media you watch or listen to. It has to do with how the flag has come to be used and mean to some if not most people.
I watched yesterday, with my OWN two eyes and ears, the BS medias were NOWHERE in sight, as 3 pickup trucks with young twenty somethings drove at a pretty fast speed, I live in a rural area. The 3 all had at least 3x6 American flags affixed to the back of the beds flying in the wind. One had a Thin Blue Line flag as well as they drove honking their horns! Do YOU think they were conservatives or liberals???
Maybe your answer is that it's impossible to tell by their display and you'd be right but that would be pretty naive answer.
I won't even mention what I experienced in Oregon about 5 or 6 years ago but it made me uncomfortable enough that I got the hell outa town!!!
John

Your OP also made sure to mention that you would never put a flag on a pickup truck. So is your problem with the flag or is it with pickup trucks? Or conservatives?  Or is it only conservatives driving with flags on pickup trucks? Sounds like the flag isn't the problem here. If YOU chose to take a small subset of people that represent something bad, and YOU decide that this small subset will now represent an entire group of people...regardless of the majority of that group not sharing any of those bad ideologies...well that's on YOU. And to be clear, I don't drive a pickup truck, and I'm not a conservative. But to just lump everyone with a different political view point into one group and lable them hateful monsters...Pretty intolerant on your end.

But back you your original post. The American flag has not lost its meaning. If you want to fly it, feel free to. If you don't want to fly it, don't. That's fine. You make it clear that you don't want to be associated with something you're not. And of course, that makes sense. No one wants to be worngfully associated with a hate group. Don't allow the flag to be hijacked by these groups. Simple as that. The next time you see a flag, don't assume the person flying it hates everyone that doesn't look like them. The flag has different meanings to everyone that flys it. And you have the right to assign whatever meaning you want to the flag you choose to fly or not fly. But its ends on an individual level. You can't apply your reason to not fly the flag, as a universal truth to demonize anyone who does fly the flag. If the majority of people flying the flag are doing so in good faith, the meaning cannot be hijacked.

Chuckarelei wrote:
[/img]

Still the best country on earth, regardless of what some haters say. Wouldn't want to be in anywhere else but America.

You're the only one talking about haters! Who are these haters and what do they hate? I can think of a few.
I guess all that 100+ degree heat up there is getting to ya!! LoL
Yes easily the best country in the world, I agree. How great this country is had nothing to do with my original query. My question was did anyone else feel like the most recognizable flag on this planet and representing the greatest nation on this planet feels to anyone else like it has been hijacked by conservative splinter groups to represent their conservative and in my view, hateful causes and views.
It seems like quite the opposite, that those that feel entitled in some way or another and are waving the biggest flags seem to hate anyone who is not waving one or that doubts the reason for not waving one.
John

John Silva Photography wrote:
You're the only one talking about haters! Who are these haters and what do they hate? I can think of a few.
I guess all that 100+ degree heat up there is getting to ya!! LoL
Yes easily the best country in the world, I agree. How great this country is had nothing to do with my original query. My question was did anyone else feel like the most recognizable flag on this planet and representing the greatest nation on this planet feels to anyone else like it has been hijacked by conservative splinter groups to represent their conservative and in my view, hateful causes and views.
It seems like quite the opposite, that those that feel entitled in some way or another and are waving the biggest flags seem to hate anyone who is not waving one or that doubts the reason for not waving one.
John

Hateful haters are going to hate no matter what.

John Silva Photography wrote:
In the last four years the white supremacist, the racist, the militias, the homophobics and all the other ultra conservative groups have pretty much taken any past patriotic symbol and repurposed those symbols to represent and stand for their brand of conservative beliefs. Of all of our patriotic symbols non have been so abused as our national Stars and Stripes, the very flag that has represented American Democracy and American respect the world over.
Because of this, any large flag has become a symbol of representation of the ultra-conservative movement.

Sorry John but I couldn't disagree more.
First as to you last line that is a conclusion based on the one sided Left wing Progressive/Marist,CRT thinking and reporting on major news media.

I hear a number of folks embarrassed by American History of racism etc but IMO that is based on ignorance of WORLD HISTORY.

Would they be proud of their nations history if their country was Germany, Japan, China, Russia, Soviet Union, England, Italy( and the Roman Empire from which it came)? I would hope they would because they all had slavery in their past, were colonial powers long before the US existed  and all committed atrocities in war.

During the Crusades the great Muslim warrior leader Sueiman of the Ottoman Empire Slaughtered 7000 POWs, because he couldn't feed them. So did the Christian leader King Richard the Lion Hearted. Both were praised in their own real and condemned by their enemies but the Geneva Convention didn't exist. The number was smaller for Santa Anna.

Can you name one Marxist country that didn't execute their political opposition? Besides starving their population through incompetence?

For the last 40 + years we have seen a war on traditional American values by a nihilistic left wing agenda and they followed the game plan Paul Harvey

People in historical times must be evaluated by the standards of their times not the impossible "Cancel Culture"of our times. Yes slavery is, was and always will be an evil institution and in this country we think of it in racial terms but worldwide over history pretty mush every group was both enslaved and held other in slavery ( Including native Americans long before the first European landed here)

I don't fly the flag on my pickup for two reasons. One I don't own a pickup. Second violent Left wing extremest tended to beat people up over wearing a MAGNA hat, I do not want to fuel their hate. I have never had a political sticker on any vehicle I have ever owned but my observation is that Left wingers have multiple sticker for every cause on their car/Truck

When I go camping I do proudly fly the flag over my Motor Home and have for years and there are always a lot of others doing the same.

Name one historic figure that would pass today's standards?

Math is racist, speaking proper English is racist, striving for excellence is racist and why we are condemning "Whiteness" I guess the memorial for MLK on the Mall must go to, after all it is WHITE marble.

https://www.google.com/search?q=paul+ha … P-oyJ8Ao34


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Am … _ownership

Bob Helm Photography wrote:

Sorry John but I couldn't disagree more.
First as to you last line that is a conclusion based on the one sided Left wing Progressive/Marist,CRT thinking and reporting on major news media.

I hear a number of folks embarrassed by American History of racism etc but IMO that is based on ignorance of WORLD HISTORY.

Would they be proud of their nations history if their country was Germany, Japan, China, Russia, Soviet Union, England, Italy( and the Roman Empire from which it came)? I would hope they would because they all had slavery in their past, were colonial powers long before the US existed  and all committed atrocities in war.

During the Crusades the great Muslim warrior leader Sueiman of the Ottoman Empire Slaughtered 7000 POWs, because he couldn't feed them. So did the Christian leader King Richard the Lion Hearted. Both were praised in their own real and condemned by their enemies but the Geneva Convention didn't exist. The number was smaller for Santa Anna.

Can you name one Marxist country that didn't execute their political opposition? Besides starving their population through incompetence?

For the last 40 + years we have seen a war on traditional American values by a nihilistic left wing agenda and they followed the game plan Paul Harvey

People in historical times must be evaluated by the standards of their times not the impossible "Cancel Culture"of our times. Yes slavery is, was and always will be an evil institution and in this country we think of it in racial terms but worldwide over history pretty mush every group was both enslaved and held other in slavery ( Including native Americans long before the first European landed here)

I don't fly the flag on my pickup for two reasons. One I don't own a pickup. Second violent Left wing extremest tended to beat people up over wearing a MAGNA hat, I do not want to fuel their hate. I have never had a political sticker on any vehicle I have ever owned but my observation is that Left wingers have multiple sticker for every cause on their car/Truck

When I go camping I do proudly fly the flag over my Motor Home and have for years and there are always a lot of others doing the same.

Name one historic figure that would pass today's standards?

Math is racist, speaking proper English is racist, striving for excellence is racist and why we are condemning "Whiteness" I guess the memorial for MLK on the Mall must go to, after all it is WHITE marble.

https://www.google.com/search?q=paul+ha … P-oyJ8Ao34


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Am … _ownership

Bob Helm Photography wrote:
Sorry John but I couldn't disagree more.
First as to you last line that is a conclusion based on the one sided Left wing Progressive/Marist,CRT thinking and reporting on major news media.

I hear a number of folks embarrassed by American History of racism etc but IMO that is based on ignorance of WORLD HISTORY.

Would they be proud of their nations history if their country was Germany, Japan, China, Russia, Soviet Union, England, Italy( and the Roman Empire from which it came)? I would hope they would because they all had slavery in their past, were colonial powers long before the US existed  and all committed atrocities in war.

During the Crusades the great Muslim warrior leader Sueiman of the Ottoman Empire Slaughtered 7000 POWs, because he couldn't feed them. So did the Christian leader King Richard the Lion Hearted. Both were praised in their own real and condemned by their enemies but the Geneva Convention didn't exist. The number was smaller for Santa Anna.

Can you name one Marxist country that didn't execute their political opposition? Besides starving their population through incompetence?

For the last 40 + years we have seen a war on traditional American values by a nihilistic left wing agenda and they followed the game plan Paul Harvey

People in historical times must be evaluated by the standards of their times not the impossible "Cancel Culture"of our times. Yes slavery is, was and always will be an evil institution and in this country we think of it in racial terms but worldwide over history pretty mush every group was both enslaved and held other in slavery ( Including native Americans long before the first European landed here)

I don't fly the flag on my pickup for two reasons. One I don't own a pickup. Second violent Left wing extremest tended to beat people up over wearing a MAGNA hat, I do not want to fuel their hate. I have never had a political sticker on any vehicle I have ever owned but my observation is that Left wingers have multiple sticker for every cause on their car/Truck

When I go camping I do proudly fly the flag over my Motor Home and have for years and there are always a lot of others doing the same.

Name one historic figure that would pass today's standards?

Math is racist, speaking proper English is racist, striving for excellence is racist and why we are condemning "Whiteness" I guess the memorial for MLK on the Mall must go to, after all it is WHITE marble.

https://www.google.com/search?q=paul+ha … P-oyJ8Ao34


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Am … _ownership

rfordphotos wrote:
Historical context can certainly be important. But poor behavior in the past does not justify it now.

You are correct, but no one is. Anyone trying to bring back Slavery or Jim Crow laws? No but there are people saying voting laws are Jim Crow II when theses so called Jim Crow II laws allow more options to vote than the critics home state laws.
One of the most vocal shouters of Jin Crow II just came out in support of voter ID laws when polling indicates that around 80% if voters support them-- including her fellow Democrats and minorities.

Most of what we know about History is wrong, slightly inaccurate or attributed to the wrong person or Group. "Remember the Main" was the cry that got us into a war we probably would have been in anyway but several Navy Boards of Inquiry later it was determined not to be a mine.

Saying something or someone is a racist or that a group is responsible for something doesn't make it so nor does a few idiot supporters taint the group. I assume that there are racists that are great at math, even teach it but to claim that math is racist is laughable except in 2021 America where so called educated professors accept it as truth.

The record of "racist" remarks made by our current President is long and personally don't think there is a racist bone in the man. Just someone who speaks what he is thinking , just like his predecessors .

Our horrible treatment of the Native Americans doesnt make me proud, and it to a degree continues today-

Native Americans were not allowed to vote until 1924.
The Supreme Court just sided with the restrictive voting laws in Arizona. This will make it very hard for the Navajo, living on the Rez, to vote again.

John Silva Photography wrote:
Yes easily the best country in the world, I agree.

On what scale ?

John Silva Photography wrote:
Yes easily the best country in the world, I agree.

PHP-Photography wrote:
On what scale ?

I'm sure more than a few of them are now trying to google any major general world ranking studies that agree.   But it's been a tough few years and they could use a break and a bit of a celebration, so why not!

PHP-Photography wrote:

On what scale ?

Gun Ownership
Mass Incarceration
Military Spending

Bob Helm Photography wrote:

You are correct, but no one is. Anyone trying to bring back Slavery or Jim Crow laws? No but there are people saying voting laws are Jim Crow II when theses so called Jim Crow II laws allow more options to vote than the critics home state laws.
Republicans are very fond of the slippery slope philosophy when it comes to guns and socialism, but you don't feel like that could apply to rescinding equal rights?  The Republicans have been whittling away at Roe.  This is just another possibility.  Bit by bit. 

"No one" is a very broad claim and it is not provable.  It is easy for you to make a broad comment regarding all the laws that have been passed and submitted to be considered to be law, but you provide no analysis.  Just a broad and unsubstantiated claim that everything is fine. 

One of the most vocal shouters of Jin Crow II just came out in support of voter ID laws when polling indicates that around 80% if voters support them-- including her fellow Democrats and minorities.
Really?  Who?  And why wouldn't you state her name ?  Lets look at exactly what she said and what the context is. 

Most of what we know about History is wrong, slightly inaccurate or attributed to the wrong person or Group. "Remember the Main" was the cry that got us into a war we probably would have been in anyway but several Navy Boards of Inquiry later it was determined not to be a mine.
You fit squarely in the "wrong, slightly inaccurate or attributed to the wrong person or Group" category.  It is easy to pick out specific examples, but not so accurate when you are failing to examine the contributing factors.  Your reference to the Maine (it was named for the state, not a pipe) is an inappropriate reference.  What is your point?  The history was wrong and later corrected?  No.  You just listed the time line.  If there was an error or malfeasance, it was because "Remember the Maine" was based on a false rallying cry at the time.  Either no one knew the real cause at the time, or someone knew and used the tragedy to accomplish their ends.  But your example isn't an example of history being corrected or rewritten.  It is the time line of the event.   

In your last post, which I will get to, you clearly came out against the furtherance of history through scholarly research.

Saying something or someone is a racist or that a group is responsible for something doesn't make it so nor does a few idiot supporters taint the group. I assume that there are racists that are great at math, even teach it but to claim that math is racist is laughable except in 2021 America where so called educated professors accept it as truth.
Denying that something or someone is racist doesn't make it so either.  The numbers that taint a group are subjective and you don't get to make the determination for other people.  Being tainted by those that are associated with a group depends on perception and actions.  The Proud Boys do not represent the entire Republican party, but the Proud Boys taint the Republican Party, just as the party's failure to distance themselves from the Proud Boys taints the party.  Then you add on the antics of Marjorie Taylor Greene and a host of other prominent Republicans, and you have what amounts to a racist party. 

"A man is judged by the company he keeps, and a company is judged by the men it keeps, and the people of Democratic nations are judged by the type and caliber of officers they elect."

The record of "racist" remarks made by our current President is long and personally don't think there is a racist bone in the man. Just someone who speaks what he is thinking , just like his predecessors .
That is delusional.  Convenient though.  What we think and say is a reflection of us.  How we act on those thoughts is a greater reflection.  People think about what they dwell on and we can chose to not dwell on evil things.  A person in the position of The President of the United States has no business thinking out loud.  At least if he wants to be president of the country, instead of president of the Proud Boys Party. 

Your bias spills out of your mouth.  You can't see it, because your thoughts define your world.

Luke 6:43:  “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. "

For thousands of years men have known that our words and actions reflect who we are.  Somehow all that changes because it is trump?

Bob Helm Photography wrote:

“Sorry John but I couldn't disagree more.”  “Second violent Left wing extremest tended to beat people up over wearing a MAGNA hat, I do not want to fuel their hate.”   Really, what it sounds like here is that you agree completely with John.  You are both afraid of the other side. The difference is the side you are each on.  And that he posted a rational concern, where as you posted an exaggerated fear and indicated that you are oblivious to the potential danger that your side presents to others.  This is a good time to remind you that hundreds or thousands "of violent RIGHTIST EXTREMIST" have initiated or escalated violence, including seizing the Capital to hinder the peaceful transfer of power after a fair and honest election because those people believe the most absurd lies ever told. 

Can you say Timothy McVeigh?  Kyle Rittenhouse? Lee Harvey Oswald?  James Earl Ray? Thomas Edwin Blanton Jr., Herman Frank Cash, Robert Edward Chambliss, and Bobby Frank Cherry?  Joe McCarthy? Derek Michael Chauvin?  The 3 Percenters?  The Proud Boys? And one of those sacred American traditions, the KKK?  How many upstanding conservative people, including cops, participated in the murders of Goodman, Cheney, and Schwerner and what price did they pay?

Why is it the right wing militias are considered a threat to national security?  Yes.  You are in such proud and moral company!

I don’t know why you think this is new in this country.  There has been persecution of all kinds in this country, for like forever.  The Right has always been willing to take the law into their own hands- beat and lynch people.  People have been killed over religion, politics, and being different.  There use to be some guy here that would mention that trump signs got stolen and he adamantly denied any Biden signs were ever stolen.  Are you like that?

What you don’t realize is that you are what you hate.  You are the antifa guy in a MAGA hat.  The question is, why can’t you see it?  Blinded by hate?  Blinded by selfrightousness?

Much like your verson of history, you see what you want to see.  It is an individual’s preference as to what they will display on their car and it isn’t a left or right action.  If you don’t see rightist stickers on vehicles, you just plain ain’t looking or you live in area with a lot of really good, decent people.  I see confederate flags galore, trump/pence stickers from 16 and 20.  "Don’t tread on me" and NRA stickers are common enough and so are anti-abortion stickers.  My mother had one of those on her old 1960s something mustang.  It got vandalized in a parking lot, but the damage wasn’t limited to the sticker.  Before you go and say that I just validated your point, be honest and admit that people on the right will also vandalize someone’s car for the stickers they display.  You displayed the hate yourself with your list of buzz words.  The only question is how far will you go.  You won’t damage someone else’s property?  But you know damn well that others will and being on the right doesn’t mean they are incapable of committing crimes of violence against people or property.

It isn’t that hard to google up examples of vehicles with progressive messaging being vandalized or the people being attacked.  It is no more difficult to find these examples then those of the other side.  It works both ways because both sides have a variety of humans with traits that are not specific to political ideology.  One big difference: The reaction of the cops when someone’s car is vandalized because of Obama stickers, as opposed to trump stickers.

I agree with John because people see my Phillies hat from behind and they think I am an idiot.  I agree with you because other people see my Penn State hat from behind and they think I am an idiot.  The idiots are the ones that judge me based on the color of my hat and those who do not know what the Phillies symbol or the Penn State symbol is.  But no one has raised a hand to me or harangued me.

The other interesting thing about you complaining about the bumperstickers on the cars that are messages which you don’t like, is that you are bitching about free speech- a fundamental right for ALL Americans.  The precious first amendment ain’t so precious when it is other people’s free speech, it seems. 

Well, you are consistent.  “First as to you[sic] last line that is a conclusion based on the one sided Left wing Progressive/Marist,CRT thinking and reporting on major news media.”  Yep, you don’t like their free speech and freedom association.  The Bill of Rights isn’t just for the people you agree with, is it?  “For the last 40 + years we have seen a war on traditional American values by a nihilistic left wing agenda and they followed the game plan Paul Harvey.”  That is a statement that indicates your loose association with the truth and your propensity to twist history into self-serving attacks.  Progressives have not been at war with traditional American values.  They have been expressing freedom and striving to improve America based on their philosophies.  Twisting it into a "war" indicates your adoration of the propaganda machine.  Are conservatives at war against women and the middle class, anyone with alternative sexuality or lifestyles, anyone with opposing points of view?  That is the much more likely scenario from where I sit.

We can’t have people doing any free thinking and making the country more progressive, even though you benefit from free thought and progressive ideology everyday when you get into a safe car, live in a safe society,  get paid a living wage, enjoy a 40 hour work week, or pick up a digital camera, etc ad nauseam.  I got news for you, Bob, just because a value is traditional or American, or if it is the sacred “traditional American value,” it doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to be changed or discarded.  You aren’t the one on the receiving end of some of the evil that is expressed because of “traditional American values,” (like keeping certain people in their place?), therefore, you might not have much reason to reflect on those values.

Regarding the nihilistic left: It is a lot better than the nihilistic right which hides its lack of religious and moral principle by wrapping themselves in religions it does not live, false facades of ideologies of convenience and hypocrisy and the flag- which has nothing to do with religion or morality.

How does the religious and moral right support a nihilistic trump and claim any moral and religious authority as he and his minions lie daily for the sake of giving the utterly depraved what they want to hear?  trump is the same as the serpent tempting Eve.  He offers something shiny, with the promise it will all work out well, when any rational and moral person can see that it will not. 

The resemblance between trump and the anti-Christ is uncanny.


https://www.quora.com/Have-you-ever-bee … ur-vehicle


You packed a lot of garbage into that post.  I’ll be back to discuss more of it.

PHP-Photography wrote:
On what scale ?

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Gun Ownership
Mass Incarceration
Military Spending

So Eritrea is the best country in the world?

Chuckarelei wrote:
So Eritrea is the best country in the world?

Nope.  Canada.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countr … l-rankings

Hah!  Except we never take ourselves, or this sort of stuff, too seriously.  Usually we show up as #2 or #3, or something like that.  With very strong competition from the Nordic countries.   So I was a little surprised.  But hey, who am I to argue with the American studies on the subject...

Bob Helm Photography wrote:

I certainly wouldn't disagree with you that we cannot hold historical figures accountable for a point of view that was prevalent hundreds of years after their time.  Could we hold them accountable for a point of view which was prevalent in their own time? Or must we have selective ignorance regarding that part of history? 

Are you oblivious towards to the moral outrage against slave holding in the times when our own Constitution was written and ratified?  Why do you think it was that slaves were counted as 3/5ths of a person?  Since you have stated it before, and you expressed your ignorance that it was meant to show the slaves were valued as people, I will reaffirm you were wrong.  Yes, they were valuable to their owners.  That is true in a financial way.  They were worth real money and the compromise that allowed them to be counted as 3/5 ths of a person allowed slave states a greater representation in Congress because it increased the population of those states where slaves were commonly held, and representation was a function of population. But they certainly weren’t valued as humans. 

Why should the people that held slaves be judged for their holding of slaves when it was common practice?  In the same society, there were many people at the time that recognized the evil that it was to hold slaves.  The Quakers were well known for being anti-slavery.  Some states outlawed slavery well before the Constitution was written, much less ratified.  Why then should some men from history get a pass because they adopted a practice and belief that others had rejected?  Even Virginia and North Carolina had restricted the importation of slaves from Africa prior to the Constitution and good ole Thomas Jefferson, a slave owner, who fathered many children through a slave, proposed to limit slavery in the west as the country expanded.

You want to justify the atrocities in our history because other people did them first.  Well, it is true, that other people committed many atrocities before we did.  Though we get credit for the first concentration camp.  So, the English conquered the Scots and the Welsh and the Irish and every rape, murder and act of genocide is okay with you because that is just the way the world was.  Okay.  Fine.  That is the way the world was.  And from that stand point, there is no reason that the world should ever change.

In Canada,  the government put native children into schools to deprive them of their heritage until the last residential school closed in 1997.  (Canada was not alone in this cultural genocide.)  What the hell man?  If it was okay in 1828, why should they have to close them in 1997?    Of course, here in America, blankets inoculated with small pox where given to native people as part of the genocide conducted here.  Our forefathers created famine by decimating the buffalo herd until FREE people had no choice but to surrender or starve.  We should be proud of our heritage of genocide and stealing land?  That this great country could have only become what it is through so many injustices, which Christians (which they purported to be) surely should have known they were injustices, against other people?   Certainly then, in these modern times, would you proclaim that the criminals that steal, cheat, rob and murder fine people to amass a fortune are to be worthy of your praise?

It was really good to learn from about massacres in the Crusades.  Both sides did it, but funny thing, in the middle east, to this day, there is great resentment regarding the Crusades.  Nevertheless, it was okay then, so the massacre at Mỹ Lai was fine and dandy too and we can keep it up.  Each killing of civilians in Afghanistan is completely acceptable because that is the way it has always been done.  That is why some presidents pardon those that commit war crimes, right?  Because we never have to put aside the atrocities of our ancestors as long we can justify the atrocity because it is acceptable among some of the people at any given time?

You gave us list of countries and indicated that they don’t feel ashamed about their history.  I know more than a few Germans that would be surprised they are on that list.  They are ashamed of the holocaust.  It is also interesting that there is an anti-Japanese sentiment which exists because the Japanese have never apologized adequately for Pearl Harbor, or The Rape of Nanjing, or atrocities throughout the war, including “Comfort Women.”  Some Americans seem to want Japan to come to grips with some of these things, but the Japanese as a society do not feel guilt over them.  It is, like you say, the way things were.  Okay.  That’s cool.  We don’t have to ever examine ourselves because Japan, Russia, China, Marxist and communist countries around the world don’t.  We can be just like them. 

That works out good for someone like trump, who mentions that we are just as bad or worse than the Russians.  Consequently, he couldn’t ask Russia to change human rights abuses.  But why should he be concerned about human rights abuses?  He is all for them!  Thusly, he justifies war crimes as noble.  Consequently, Putin can compare arresting the insurrectionists in our capital to the Russians putting political opposition in jail for years and justify it.  You are okay with that, given your ideology.  Other than trump’s America, what other countries called the press "the enemy of the people?”   You are okay with being in the same category as those totalitarian countries, which seek to suppress truth and the free flow of information.

You want us to consider that slavery was the natural state of things and therefore acceptable at the time.  Slavery looked different in other places and other times.  The indigenous people of this continent had slaves and that justified the extinction of some tribes as they were taken into slavery by the Europeans?  Starting with Columbus.  Did the Native Americans travel to distant shores and create a market for slaves to grow wealth and prosperity?  Or were they the spoils of war?  Perhaps you would provide some historical references which document the brutality of Native Americans regarding their captives.  I am sure as a history buff, you can find plenty of examples among all other civilizations of the time, that indicate slavery was as brutal as it was here. 

Of course Americans view slavery in racial terms.  Why shouldn't they?  Slavery between warring tribes, or in Rome, was the enslavement of people like themselves.  In some instances, the Romans may have taken some slaves from Africa, but in most cases, not.  The Roman empire did not extend south far enough in the continent for the taking of slaves in the places where American slaves came from.  The slaves in Rome were Europeans, Middle Eastern and North African.  The people were not unlike themselves. 

American slavery was based on race, despite your denial.  The Native American and the African were the slaves.  Where do you see in our history, any mass enslavement of white Americans/Europeans by white Americans?  Where do you see in the articles of secession and the confederate constitution, any mention of slavery regarding anyone but the negro? 

“Its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.” Wait!  What is that he says about the first in world?   Gee, Bob, why would anyone in the world associate slavery in this country in racial terms?

You recognize slavery as an evil thing in your words, and yet you justify it.  If it was evil, then enough said.  We don’t have to justify it.  Doesn’t justifying it minimize the evil?  I don't believe you really think it was a horrible institution because you embrace the resulting racism to this day. 

It is of little wonder that you look at trump and do not believe he has a racist bone in his body when you so egregiously fail to see your own.

You curse the progressives for cancel culture and rewriting history, but what is it that you are really promoting?  If archeologist and historical researchers find new evidence and understanding about history, the right insists that it be buried if it doesn’t fit their perception of history, rather then engage in self examination of their ideals.  That is your problem with CRT, isn’t it?  You want to deny school children the ability to learn about the evil of slavery because it might hurt their feelings?  Or in your heart, you don't believe slavery was evil?  Do want the next generation to know how Jim Crow was a successful effort to deny millions of people the right to vote, gain wealth, and enjoy freedom and equal justice?  Do want people to forget about lynchings that occurred, often based on false accusations?  You don't want people to know that our Capital was built with slave labor?  You don't want them to know that venerable institutions like John Hopkins University exist from the profits of slavery?  Because that is what you are saying when you admonish teaching people about the impacts of racial slavery in the United States.  You are against CRT because it might cause people to consider that current racial discrimination, which remains epidemic in this country, may actually harm people in real ways.  That is what your rightist culture teaches you, and time and time again the right denies science, literature, religion, and history to favor an approach that keeps us living in the days when something that was wrong, even by the standards of good people of the time, was accepted as right, even though every man had plenty of evidence otherwise.

It is of little wonder that you do not feel any embarrassment towards the atrocities of racial slavery or racism in our country's history, considering how joyfully you let us know that you embrace racism.  You couldn't bear to make a historical argument or a logical one with getting all your Republican buzz words in there.  Cancel Culture.  Marxism.  Left wing.  Progressive.  CRT.  Good job man.  You even got your point in there that Christian leaders massacred people, almost as if that was a teaching of Christ. 



ref:
https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/slavery/t … /1781.html
excerpt from the Cornerstone Speech

I am not finished with that shit show post of yours yet.

63fotos wrote:

Native Americans were not allowed to vote until 1924.
The Supreme Court just sided with the restrictive voting laws in Arizona. This will make it very hard for the Navajo, living on the Rez, to vote again.

Why do you think that was?
From the beginning of the country the native Americas were considered separate Nations, that is why we had Treaties with them, treaties are between nations.
They were not made citizens until 1924 and that is when they got the vote. Do you think they would have accepted citizenship when the country was young and they were fighting wars with us.
We keep hearing about change and we must accept it, they didn't and wanted to preserve a way of life that was incompatible with the population growth/
While I agree that there are many elements in every nation's past that they should not be proud of I have yet to hear any alternative way we could have handled the situation, no less one that was actually possible with the mindset of the time.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
I certainly wouldn't disagree with you that we cannot hold historical figures accountable for a point of view that was prevalent hundreds of years after their time.  Could we hold them accountable for a point of view which was prevalent in their own time? Or must we have selective ignorance regarding that part of history? 

Are you oblivious towards to the moral outrage against slave holding in the times when our own Constitution was written and ratified?  Why do you think it was that slaves were counted as 3/5ths of a person?  Since you have stated it before, and you expressed your ignorance that it was meant to show the slaves were valued as people, I will reaffirm you were wrong.  Yes, they were valuable to their owners.  That is true in a financial way.  They were worth real money and the compromise that allowed them to be counted as 3/5 ths of a person allowed slave states a greater representation in Congress because it increased the population of those states where slaves were commonly held, and representation was a function of population. But they certainly weren’t valued as humans. 

Why should the people that held slaves be judged for their holding of slaves when it was common practice?  In the same society, there were many people at the time that recognized the evil that it was to hold slaves.  The Quakers were well known for being anti-slavery.  Some states outlawed slavery well before the Constitution was written, much less ratified.  Why then should some men from history get a pass because they adopted a practice and belief that others had rejected?  Even Virginia and North Carolina had restricted the importation of slaves from Africa prior to the Constitution and good ole Thomas Jefferson, a slave owner, who fathered many children through a slave, proposed to limit slavery in the west as the country expanded.

You want to justify the atrocities in our history because other people did them first.  Well, it is true, that other people committed many atrocities before we did.  Though we get credit for the first concentration camp.  So, the English conquered the Scots and the Welsh and the Irish and every rape, murder and act of genocide is okay with you because that is just the way the world was.  Okay.  Fine.  That is the way the world was.  And from that stand point, there is no reason that the world should ever change.

In Canada,  the government put native children into schools to deprive them of their heritage until the last residential school closed in 1997.  (Canada was not alone in this cultural genocide.)  What the hell man?  If it was okay in 1828, why should they have to close them in 1997?    Of course, here in America, blankets inoculated with small pox where given to native people as part of the genocide conducted here.  Our forefathers created famine by decimating the buffalo herd until FREE people had no choice but to surrender or starve.  We should be proud of our heritage of genocide and stealing land?  That this great country could have only become what it is through so many injustices, which Christians (which they purported to be) surely should have known they were injustices, against other people?   Certainly then, in these modern times, would you proclaim that the criminals that steal, cheat, rob and murder fine people to amass a fortune are to be worthy of your praise?

It was really good to learn from about massacres in the Crusades.  Both sides did it, but funny thing, in the middle east, to this day, there is great resentment regarding the Crusades.  Nevertheless, it was okay then, so the massacre at Mỹ Lai was fine and dandy too and we can keep it up.  Each killing of civilians in Afghanistan is completely acceptable because that is the way it has always been done.  That is why some presidents pardon those that commit war crimes, right?  Because we never have to put aside the atrocities of our ancestors as long we can justify the atrocity because it is acceptable among some of the people at any given time?

You gave us list of countries and indicated that they don’t feel ashamed about their history.  I know more than a few Germans that would be surprised they are on that list.  They are ashamed of the holocaust.  It is also interesting that there is an anti-Japanese sentiment which exists because the Japanese have never apologized adequately for Pearl Harbor, or The Rape of Nanjing, or atrocities throughout the war, including “Comfort Women.”  Some Americans seem to want Japan to come to grips with some of these things, but the Japanese as a society do not feel guilt over them.  It is, like you say, the way things were.  Okay.  That’s cool.  We don’t have to ever examine ourselves because Japan, Russia, China, Marxist and communist countries around the world don’t.  We can be just like them. 

That works out good for someone like trump, who mentions that we are just as bad or worse than the Russians.  Consequently, he couldn’t ask Russia to change human rights abuses.  But why should he be concerned about human rights abuses?  He is all for them!  Thusly, he justifies war crimes as noble.  Consequently, Putin can compare arresting the insurrectionists in our capital to the Russians putting political opposition in jail for years and justify it.  You are okay with that, given your ideology.  Other than trump’s America, what other countries called the press "the enemy of the people?”   You are okay with being in the same category as those totalitarian countries, which seek to suppress truth and the free flow of information.

You want us to consider that slavery was the natural state of things and therefore acceptable at the time.  Slavery looked different in other places and other times.  The indigenous people of this continent had slaves and that justified the extinction of some tribes as they were taken into slavery by the Europeans?  Starting with Columbus.  Did the Native Americans travel to distant shores and create a market for slaves to grow wealth and prosperity?  Or were they the spoils of war?  Perhaps you would provide some historical references which document the brutality of Native Americans regarding their captives.  I am sure as a history buff, you can find plenty of examples among all other civilizations of the time, that indicate slavery was as brutal as it was here. 

Of course Americans view slavery in racial terms.  Why shouldn't they?  Slavery between warring tribes, or in Rome, was the enslavement of people like themselves.  In some instances, the Romans may have taken some slaves from Africa, but in most cases, not.  The Roman empire did not extend south far enough in the continent for the taking of slaves in the places where American slaves came from.  The slaves in Rome were Europeans, Middle Eastern and North African.  The people were not unlike themselves. 

American slavery was based on race, despite your denial.  The Native American and the African were the slaves.  Where do you see in our history, any mass enslavement of white Americans/Europeans by white Americans?  Where do you see in the articles of secession and the confederate constitution, any mention of slavery regarding anyone but the negro? 

“Its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.” Wait!  What is that he says about the first in world?   Gee, Bob, why would anyone in the world associate slavery in this country in racial terms?

You recognize slavery as an evil thing in your words, and yet you justify it.  If it was evil, then enough said.  We don’t have to justify it.  Doesn’t justifying it minimize the evil?  I don't believe you really think it was a horrible institution because you embrace the resulting racism to this day. 

It is of little wonder that you look at trump and do not believe he has a racist bone in his body when you so egregiously fail to see your own.

You curse the progressives for cancel culture and rewriting history, but what is it that you are really promoting?  If archeologist and historical researchers find new evidence and understanding about history, the right insists that it be buried if it doesn’t fit their perception of history, rather then engage in self examination of their ideals.  That is your problem with CRT, isn’t it?  You want to deny school children the ability to learn about the evil of slavery because it might hurt their feelings?  Or in your heart, you don't believe slavery was evil?  Do want the next generation to know how Jim Crow was a successful effort to deny millions of people the right to vote, gain wealth, and enjoy freedom and equal justice?  Do want people to forget about lynchings that occurred, often based on false accusations?  You don't want people to know that our Capital was built with slave labor?  You don't want them to know that venerable institutions like John Hopkins University exist from the profits of slavery?  Because that is what you are saying when you admonish teaching people about the impacts of racial slavery in the United States.  You are against CRT because it might cause people to consider that current racial discrimination, which remains epidemic in this country, may actually harm people in real ways.  That is what your rightist culture teaches you, and time and time again the right denies science, literature, religion, and history to favor an approach that keeps us living in the days when something that was wrong, even by the standards of good people of the time, was accepted as right, even though every man had plenty of evidence otherwise.

It is of little wonder that you do not feel any embarrassment towards the atrocities of racial slavery or racism in our country's history, considering how joyfully you let us know that you embrace racism.  You couldn't bear to make a historical argument or a logical one with getting all your Republican buzz words in there.  Cancel Culture.  Marxism.  Left wing.  Progressive.  CRT.  Good job man.  You even got your point in there that Christian leaders massacred people, almost as if that was a teaching of Christ. 



ref:
https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/slavery/t … /1781.html
excerpt from the Cornerstone Speech

I am not finished with that shit show post of yours yet.

Normally I d do not bother with replying to any of your silly replies but to be clear At no time did I say I wasn't embarrass by things we did in the past or why I oppose teaching CRT and you leap to more erroneous conclusions than a marathon hurdler would.
No I am not embarrassed by history, it was how people of the time did things. Would we do things differently today with what we know now? I ms sure we would. Are MD's embarrassed that their predecessors practiced Bloodletting  or didn't wash their hands after treating patients ( and mocked the DR who saw the link that we now consider the most important method of treaties diseases )?
As to CRT you do not fight racism by teaching racism and the US of today is vastly different than the US of the 1920 or 1960.
Continue in your self righteous flights of progressive fantasy, even though I am mostly retire I have neither the time of inclination to deal with someone whose mind is so closed.
BTW are we also responsible for what Canada Die? How about Mexico?
Good by