Rick Oldano Photography wrote:
Something to ponder, questions that probably don't need to be asked but I will ask them anyway: With so many models now "producing" for OnlyFans, AdultFolio, etc., with many of those same models really not participating here on MM to the same extent, for whatever reason, should the photographer still be asked to pay for the model's time?

The model is monetizing her images, the same images the photographer has the copyright to, shouldn't the model be compensating the photographer for his time and creative efforts?

Do we need to ask the model what she is going to use the photos for, the reverse of what many models ask of the photographer?

Do photographers need to set up multiple compensation schedules, one for their use, one for models monetizing their work. etc?

If a model states that she intends to make use of any photos on OF, etc., should I refrain from providing images to the model without compensation?

Excepting for your first question, (to which the answer is NO), all of your other questions should rightfully be answered with a "YES". It's probably best to discuss all of that beforehand and to come to a mutually agreed arrangement before the shutter is ever clicked.

While I ALWAYS work on a TF basis these days, my standard Limited Copyright Release, which accompanies and lists any images released to the model, states that the model may ONLY use the photos for personal or self-promotional purposes, and that any other commercial uses require a further agreement specifying those uses. The further agreement would require either a payment for my services, or an agreed-upon and verifiable share of the monies earned.

Rick Oldano Photography wrote:
“should the photographer…?”
“shouldn't the model…?”
“should I refrain…?”

Rick

should is a pretty loaded word, and could be interpreted to imply an obligation or expectation. There are no absolutes; do whatever best serves your goals and interests. Negotiate so that everyone is satisfied.

I'm drinking a Port Charlotte 10 Heavily Peated.

Rick Oldano Photography wrote:
Something to ponder, questions that probably don't need to be asked but I will ask them anyway: With so many models now "producing" for OnlyFans, AdultFolio, etc., with many of those same models really not participating here on MM to the same extent, for whatever reason, should the photographer still be asked to pay for the model's time?

I suspect that a model would probably answer that question in the affirmative, but you might reasonably expect a discount if she wants the pictures for her own use.

Rick Oldano Photography wrote:
Do photographers need to set up multiple compensation schedules, one for their use, one for models monetizing their work. etc?

Honestly with this quote I seriously have to question the first sentence of your bio. What in the world of professional photography is as simple one size or one answer fits all situations. I can't think of one.

If in 'twenty-five years experience as a professional photographer' have not had to deal with conditional releases and tiered compensation for model fees I would say welcome to the REAL professional world. This has been a reality of working professional photographers who have worked on editorial, catalog and advertising projects for literally decades. This reality has been a long time in coming for web and amateur photographers. I've even said this in MM forums multiple times in the past.

A single fee structure for all models and usage situations simply doesn't exist anywhere except in the minds web photographers.

Rick Oldano Photography wrote:
...  should I refrain from providing images to the model without compensation?

Rick

Your post has a fundamental internal contradiction.  In giving the model images, you have automatically provided compensation, so the only thing to consider is whether there is an appropriate balance between the time and skill of both parties.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
If you need the model, you pay.  In either money or images or chickens or ..

What I do with the money or the images or the chicken after we part ways is none of your business..

I agree with this part..

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Models don't really need photographers any more, we have our lights, filters, post tools...and our talented selves plus limitless tutorials to choose and learn from.

You (all,.collectively) have...  gripes, mostly. 

But this part is debatable. Based on my observations, I think the OnlyFans, et al money is starting to dry up for many (Not all) models. I'm noticing a lot more models who once swore off touring and posing for others' projects are starting to come back.

Running a successful OnlyFans, etc is a lot more work and requires a lot more dedication than many people think. Especially now with how saturated it's become.

I can think of a handful of models who we all know who continue to rake in cash on OnlyFans, but most don't.

Just my 2 cents..

Also: Photographers, let this be a lesson. One of the the biggest reasons the models disappeared is because they got tired of dealing with your grumpy, gropey asses. So stop that.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
If you need the model, you pay.  In either money or images or chickens or ..

What I do with the money or the images or the chicken after we part ways is none of your business..

Models don't really need photographers any more, we have our lights, filters, post tools...and our talented selves plus limitless tutorials to choose and learn from.

You (all,.collectively) have...  gripes, mostly. 

Dea, I think some photographers might take issue with the "none of your business" aspect. There is something called "copyright." The photographer "paying" you with images still retains the copyright to the images the photographer created. I daresay that a number of models believe that just because they are the integral part of the image, they have copyright and ownership rights in that image. They do not. Copyright and ownership remain with the artist, unless that ownership and copyright are contractually negotiated away.

Do I have gripes? Most definitely. For the most part that revolves around what a gallon of petrol costs now, how cramped seats are on airplanes, why can't I find the transporter room on the Starship Enterprise, etc. Models not requiring the services of a photographer any longer because they have lights, filters, etc., is a gripe so far down in the noise level as to be of little to no consequence as far as I am concerned.

Rick

John Jebbia  wrote:
[...Based on my observations, I think the OnlyFans, et al money is starting to dry up for many (Not all) models. I'm noticing a lot more models who once swore off touring and posing for others' projects are starting to come back.

Running a successful OnlyFans, etc is a lot more work and requires a lot more dedication than many people think. Especially now with how saturated it's become...

John:

I emphatically agree with you regarding OnlyFans drying up. I have seen a few models who have a collection of images/videos created over X amount of time. They get that initial flush of curiosity, post madly for several days or weeks, then need to start creating new content to remain viable.

And therein is their problem - the amount of work now required to create that content, something fresh, unique, etc., is probably more than they thought when they first created their page.

I think many of us have heard or read the news stories of a model giving up a professional career to only "work" on OnlyFans. "Work" is the operative word there - they probably are spending as much time creating their fresh content as they ever spent at their previous career.

Rick

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Models don't really need photographers any more, we have our lights, filters, post tools...and our talented selves plus limitless tutorials to choose and learn from.
You (all,.collectively) have...  gripes, mostly. 

I think that statement  is a little short sighted. Models and photographers are a team for collaborative imaging. I mean. photographers could just as easily say they don't need models. I don't pay models at this point because I don't make money, it is a hobby to me. There are plenty subjects for me to shoot besides models. if it is a hobby, birds in flight, wild life, landscape, street photography.  When I want to make money, I shoot event photography like motocross, sportbike racing, car racing, cars, children sports, adult sports, dressage, rodeo, corporate/business photography, food, product  ect. And if you want to be booked every weekend, you can shoot the happiest women on the planet.. Shoot weddings. A better argument could be made that photographers do not need models whether for hobby or for money because there are a lot of people who want memories kept of life's journey. If you think you are ready, go shoot any of those things with your lights filters and post tools and talented selves and tutorials, go right ahead, good luck to you. Perhaps I should become a stand up comedian, low pay, try to make people smile and women telling me they can do it better than I can, LOL

Not all men or women are complainers but of those who are, my observation is the women who complain are on a whole other level compared to men, In general and just my  (biased) observation (since I am a man).

One thing I have been dealing with is no shows that cancel 2 hours before. (Yep, I think my biggest grumpy old man complaints of MM and models, at least the ones who I have not worked with because of no show.), If you are a professional, keep your word and show up if you make a commitment, if you are not profession, keep your word and show up. The wildlife don't promise they will show up but usually do. Sport event rarely (almost never) cancel except for maybe super bad weather.
Oh the joy of photography. Even just for the fun of it.

Rich M Photo wrote:

I think that statement  is a little short sighted. Models and photographers are a team for collaborative imaging. I mean. photographers could just as easily say they don't need models. I don't pay models at this point because I don't make money, it is a hobby to me.

Models and Photographers CAN be a Team for collaborative imaging, or not.

If Photographers want to shoot other things as a hobby, they are free to do so. If they want to shoot models, then they will most likely be required to compensate the Model for the style and genre of how they want to shoot the Model. Whatever compensation is agreed on before the shoot is up to the participants to agree on.

Almost all of the Pro traveling Models I've shot over the years are now shooting themselves and their friends, Some are running Modeling Groups and Tours. Some shoot for OF and make decent money, they style and shoot as often as they like, and their only cost is new wardrobe and backdrops which can be resold among their friends.

Rick Oldano Photography wrote:
Something to ponder, questions that probably don't need to be asked but I will ask them anyway: With so many models now "producing" for OnlyFans, AdultFolio, etc., with many of those same models really not participating here on MM to the same extent, for whatever reason, should the photographer still be asked to pay for the model's time?

I have not heard of either. So I went an looked at only fans. It is a subscription version of youtube from what I can see, with the "fans" being able to message the content creator publicly. I did not see any ads so I assumed you have to pay to subscribe. The number of likes is between 100 and 300, I would think better to create a youtube channel myself, You would get a lot more exposure and you could get monetized for your work and have a lot more exposure.

You mentioned if you should be asking your model what she is doing with your image. Well you are suppose to be doing this already with a model release form  https://www.contractscounsel.com/t/us/m … lease-form

In the article
he Model Release Form should clearly state how the pictures or video will be used. This includes any restrictions on use, like those placed on the kind of publication or dissemination or any attribution or credit demands. The Model Release Form aids in detailing the material's intended purpose.

Reading one of the MM guides, it stated that there is not an expectation of the model getting any images if she is paid or that the images could be used for profit for you and that the model would not get any of that profit., this would be included in the Model release form that you create. If there is a TFP, then there is an expectation of the model to get images, but again you can limit the scope of what the model can use those images for through the wording of the Model release. So yes, it is your business as to what the model uses TFP images and should be spelled out in a Model release form so there are no legal issues.

Red Sky Photography wrote:

Rich M Photo wrote:
Almost all of the Pro traveling Models I've shot over the years are now shooting themselves and their friends, Some are running Modeling Groups and Tours. Some shoot for OF and make decent money, they style and shoot as often as they like, and their only cost is new wardrobe and backdrops which can be resold among their friends.

Sure, then they become the photographer and are compensating themselves or they are giving their money to a Modeling group or Tour they are paying to have their pictures taken by themselves or friends (The cost of the gear/venue are divided between between models, Photographers do this as well, several will go in with other photographers to rent the space for a studio where all the props are stored), I have no problem with that and wish them luck. But if they are shooting their friends, they are the photographer but are their friends compensating them?  If they are then they are still paying a photographer.

Because models are the photographer, their cost is the same as a photographer, the camera, lights, studio, and all the things that go with being a photographer couches props that have to be brought to a studio,. Are they really saving any money? If they are the photographer, they are splitting up their cost and profit between their two roles, Model and photographer. If that works for them great. It has always been this way for photographers. People can shoot their own wedding or have their friends do it. They can always shoot their children sports themselves, but there is a reason they get a pro photographer to do it. Photographers have always had to compete with the point and shoot/cell phone, but again there is a reason people pay photographers to shoot them instead of doing it themselves.

Also, if they are doing it themselves, they are not getting paid from the photographer because the model is shooting herself. If they are basically doing TFP, they are taking on the added burden/cost of camera, gear, lights, studio to get what they would normally get for free/trade without the investment in photography stuff. Does not sound like a good deal to me for them compared to trade for print with a photographer, and they are losing money if they are not getting paid from a photographers but now do the shooting themselves.

John Jebbia  wrote:
Based on my observations, I think the OnlyFans, et al money is starting to dry up for many (Not all) models. I'm noticing a lot more models who once swore off touring and posing for others' projects are starting to come back.

Running a successful OnlyFans, etc is a lot more work and requires a lot more dedication than many people think. Especially now with how saturated it's become.

I can think of a handful of models who we all know who continue to rake in cash on OnlyFans, but most don't.

Just my 2 cents..

Also: Photographers, let this be a lesson. One of the the biggest reasons the models disappeared is because they got tired of dealing with your grumpy, gropey asses. So stop that.

My view of Only Fans is similar to yours.  Now that we've come out of the pandemic, many businesses are picking up.  Musicians and other creatives are traveling again;  I appreciate models and pay them!

Adventure Photos wrote:
Question: Are there any photographers out there who consider what kind of 'image' they have within community? Do they want to have a model who he has shot,  also to be mostly posting and working to fill in material for porn or OF sites?  He may shoot racy, nude or erotic pics by models request, but does it matter to some, (any?) photographers if their name and work gets associated with a woman who does innocent work here, but mostly is doing explicit porn vids on the internet?  I don't assume from erotic pics done here on MM for models, that a photographer is also active and supportive of explicit porn work. 
     Does it affect your status, or how future clients , models, may think of you,  seeing you've worked with active porn models, even if you don't shoot the porn they have done?    If you do wedding and kids birthdays too, does this affect your professional position?

Considering the "image" I put out there, I don't care as much about what corporate or potential future clients think about my image as in whom I have photographed in the past or what it was for, as I do about is how the people I've photographed in the past feel about me.  It's not that I don't care about my "image" but the fact is I have to be true to myself before anything else. 

I wish for it to be a good experience regardless if it is a wedding or a child portrait, or an art nude or even something deemed adult content for Only Fans. I want to provide a safe environment. The respect with everyone I work with is important to me.  If they have a problem with whom I've worked with in the past or with my previous work, then that's their loss if they don't want to work with me. 

Same goes for those who are concerned about my political or religious opinions.  I support those models who are SW, the BLM movement, Women's Rights and that of LGBTQIA  people of which I am an "I" .. I'm open minded, inclusive and respectful of all people. If they don't like me, that's their problem.

As for your last question regarding it effecting my status, it very well might.  Back to what I said before about being true to myself.  I accept the consequences because I can't make others like me. My past has even created friction and bad blood in my own family.  I can't change the past or who I am. So be it.

Adventure Photos wrote:
Question: Are there any photographers out there who consider what kind of 'image' they have within community? Do they want to have a model who he has shot,  also to be mostly posting and working to fill in material for porn or OF sites?  He may shoot racy, nude or erotic pics by models request, but does it matter to some, (any?) photographers if their name and work gets associated with a woman who does innocent work here, but mostly is doing explicit porn vids on the internet?  I don't assume from erotic pics done here on MM for models, that a photographer is also active and supportive of explicit porn work. 
     Does it affect your status, or how future clients , models, may think of you,  seeing you've worked with active porn models, even if you don't shoot the porn they have done?    If you do wedding and kids birthdays too, does this affect your professional position?

I sometimes shoot this type of work for people. They pay me for it and it's their content to use as they please. I just ask that people not re-edit stuff, or put a bunch of gawd awful filters over it, after I've busted my ass in Photoshop, making them look like all the money they hope to bring in for themselves. The adult performer population is actually a decent source of shoot opportunities for me, and I've done some great trade work with these individuals, as well as having them as clients.

Like a lot of photographers, my work spans many genres and my clients are diverse. I may have a maternity shoot one week, then a family portrait session another week and a content or promo shoot for an adult performer the following week.

If you're worried about being pigeonholed into one genre, expand the base of clients you are working with, so you are offering many types and styles of work. If a potential client doesn't like the fact you've worked in erotic genres, that reflects more on them than it does on your work. People who have that attitude are likely intolerant in other ways, if not bigots. Adult work is work and its performers are just doing a job. They're mostly pretty great folks.

I look at it like, there are many photographers in my general region who offer boring, cliche yet over-priced work. If someone dislikes the fact I have nudes, boudoir, and figural work posted publicly, they have plenty of other photographers to choose from, and should go pay one of those photographers a lot more money for for lower quality work. I don't care too much.