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best tungsten FRESNEL KIT for Hollywood lighting?
it seems that the next level up from my 5 shop lights is a $2000 to $3000 lighting kit from Arri. i don't mind spending that much money -- IF i wind up with something appropriate for classic Hollywood glamour lighting. which (if any) of these kits would be appropriate for this application (220V no problem in my studio)?: Arri Fresnel Lighting Kits [note to strobists: i am not interested in strobe right now. that may change someday after i have spent some more time working with tungsten, just as i eventually accepted digital, but ONLY AFTER exhausting my curiosity about film.] Aug 06 07 07:16 pm Link arris are nice, but a strobe like a speedo and fresnel would not only be a hell of a lot more light but also far better for full color reproduction on a digital chip since all digital chips are designed to work optimally at about 5000 degrees. That said I would only use 1k and up for most anything to get enough light and power to shoot fast enough at the proper distances. Even a 1K is barely enough if you want to stay at 100-200 iso, bump it to 400 or more and you can get away with 750 ws fresnels,. Stephen Eastwood http://www.StephenEastwood.com Aug 06 07 07:44 pm Link I would look at a 1k and at least 2 750 fresnels to start maybe a 2k and 1k, and two 750s for a nice all around. Stephen Eastwood http://www.StephenEastwood.com Aug 06 07 07:46 pm Link I have a Lowell fren 650 that works great. Fresnel lens. I need two more to be honest. Arri's are great as well. Aug 06 07 07:55 pm Link call the rental houses or hell, look on craigslist los angeles..gaffers and rental houses are constantly selling off older mole-pars, leicos, dedo kits and even some hmi lights. I saw a few 1k and 2k molepars going for a few hundred bucks each last month. mole as in Mole Richardson of course. Aug 06 07 08:01 pm Link I've been confused as hell trying to sort out all the flash systems the last few days, but continuous lighting I know all about. The best fresnels out there right now are ETC Lighting's Source Four series PARs. I own two of these and, having spent years working in theater, film, and television, I can plainly say they are my favorite lights ever. They're rugged, easy to use, the heat dissipation features are amazing, and the updated fresnel pattern is absolutely gorgeous. Second choice would be Mole Richardson, but they run hotter. Aug 06 07 08:04 pm Link Arri and Mole Richardson are the Hollywood standards. I also like Lowell's lights. If in L.A. you can rent direct from M-R. The exposure time for film cameras is 1/48 sec. (180 degree shutter, 24 fps). A baby (1k) will give you 100 foot candles at 10 feet, which at an ISO of 100 is 2.8. Not all that hard to get a good exposure for stills. Chuck Aug 06 07 11:41 pm Link I totally know the type of lighting and time period you are working to do. Arris are great but why spend that much on your first set? I would suggest cheaper lights and get more to do what you want. Fresnels are all the same. The difference in the manufacturing is basically the crank system that moves the lamp back and forth to the fresnel lense and the outer casing. The ridged outer casings on fresnels are to give more surface to the light so it will cool faster and not be as hot. The original old style used to be a round casing. You can still get them as they are very cheap. The glass is pretty much the same in most of these types of lights. With that said you can go for a cheaper brand like Altman to start. If heat is an issue for you thenn get the fluted casing style. Your real issue will be the power draw it will ahve on your studio or apartment. So I would suggest a 650 watt lamp for your fresnels. 1K is great buit why bother. The style you are after used shallow depth of field anyway to get quicker shutter speed. Plus the posing tricks. But I assume you know that already. Then there are used ones you can get. If you google enough you can find places that sell them. There are also many theatre light rental houses who might be selling off their old stuff. But chances are they aren't. The theatre lighting technology has not advanced too much. Thye still use alot of the same basics lights that hace stood the test of time. Altman also sells elipisoidal lights as well. But you really gotta know what to get to work it in the distance of your studio. Otherwise it will never focus the way you want. You can get away with the Lowel Totowa lights as a substitute for a broad light. Of course you need the scrims and such. Hope this helps somewhat. -S Aug 06 07 11:55 pm Link Seen some nice Mole-Richardson stuff on ebay from time to time I own a MR 'baby' that I haven't use for a while, and flash clinic in NY makes up some neat fresnel spot flash heads have one for Norman packs. Aug 07 07 12:28 am Link I got 3 Colortrans off ebay for about $150 total. They were in very good shape. Any fresnel should easily handle the rigors of portrait work with little worries. The thing to watch out for is to make sure you don't get a unit with a bulb base that's no longer available, as tungsten bulbs burn out (and break) more frequently than strobes. Finding matching barn doors helps, but you can MacGyver one and/or use cinefoil and flags. EDIT: If you want to feel closer to Hurrell, get M-R brand. I think he was using them up until he died in the early '90s Aug 07 07 12:57 am Link House of Indulgence wrote: This is not entirely true. Seriously, check out the new ETC Lighting Source Four PAR units. Their casings are cool to the touch about a minute after you cut power. The internal mirror is a space age material that dissipates heat like water through fingers. Plus their new fresnel pattern is revolutionary. If you want "Old Hollywood" that has a sort of fresh edge with a real feeling of quality, definitely the right lights. Aug 07 07 02:55 am Link Ched wrote: hiya, Ched. it was nice meeting you outside of Marquee when Tyler was in town. Aug 07 07 08:09 am Link Ched wrote: I went to the website. The lense is a different style and construction form a traditional fresnel style lense. Now the ETC Source Four may give the same features as a fresnel, but it may also effect the quality and style of light differently. It is one of those situations that I would have to see it and see the difference in the light quality. Aug 07 07 09:05 am Link House of Indulgence wrote: good point. Aug 07 07 10:14 am Link The Arri kits are nice. But I'll throw this out there...Hurrell used fairly large sixed fresels, he'd use a 5 or even 10K as a main, then use a few lower watt guys for fill and kick here and there. Maybe you might want to try the same, if your in a spending mood, see what a 5k fres costs. Then use reflectors to fill off the spill. Or, for not much money, you could rent some lower watt lights to compliment. But as you know, you can do an awful lot with one light and a 5k is a large face. Be sure to get barn doors! Aug 07 07 10:21 am Link You would want the 750w with an edison plug (not twist lock or cam lock or stage pin). Maybe for your setup combine a used Mole Richardson 5,000w "senior" with four of the new ETC S4 750w units. Use the MR as the key and the S4's to enhance. Like I said, I have two of them in my studio, so if you want to come try them out you're welcome to. There is also this model which comes with four interchangeable lenses. I have not used it. It's cheaper because the glass is cheaper. The model above has the really beautiful bloom. I hope you have a power supply capable of supporting all this. I think only two of these can run on any single 20 amp household circuit. Aug 07 07 12:08 pm Link Ched wrote: i don't want to go above 1K, but the rest is no problem. Aug 07 07 12:17 pm Link i got this reply on another thread: "What makes you think you need Fresnel lights. Granted the ability to focus (to a limited extent) is nice to have but, as you've pointed out, it comes at a very high price. You can get the same effect by just using PAR fixtures with spot lights in them. I use PAR 20, 38 and 56 fixtures which cost around $20-$40 each with bulb." feedback, please. Aug 07 07 12:25 pm Link The prices he's quoting must be rental. I never thought about PAR's before, it's an interesting idea. Usually they use them to raise the ambient light levels, for example covering a window with diffusion (like 216) and setting 6 or 8 PARs going through it into a large room. But hey, anything's worth a try and his suggestion seems valid to me. Aug 07 07 12:33 pm Link Steve Reganato wrote: right now, i have more spare money than spare time. Aug 07 07 12:35 pm Link Nice problem to have. If that's the case go with the fresnels. Aug 07 07 12:40 pm Link Steve Reganato wrote: depends on the reasons. Aug 07 07 12:42 pm Link One other thing to consider - Elinchrom Scanlights (1000 watt). They can be used with most of the Elinchrom strobe accessories ( which is handy if you ever want to swith to their strobe equipment). So you could use grids, softboxes and various reflectors. I do not think they make a fresnel, but there may be adaptors for other brands. Elinchrom.com Aug 07 07 12:45 pm Link GAETANO CATELLI STUDIOS wrote: The aesthetic difference is noticeable, particularly in black and white portraits, and the non-fresnel PARs pump out a massive amount of heat (wasted energy) at any wattage, so if you're using a half dozen or more 500w or higher models it's going to be nasty hot in your studio real fast. GAETANO CATELLI STUDIOS wrote: It's just one model. You just change the bulb and replace the power connector. There are 110/115 bulbs and there are 210/220 bulbs. You buy the one you need for your power system. Aug 07 07 01:15 pm Link GAETANO CATELLI STUDIOS wrote: The housings don't contain any complicated wiring, just a positive wire and a negative one and a ground. It's the bulbs that are voltage specific. A 120v bulb plugged into a 220v circuit should sound like a small grenade going off as it sends bits of glass flying in all directions. Aug 07 07 01:19 pm Link Most of the time those old guys had access to ninelights also. Hard to find something like that off a studio lot though. A gaffer would get six or more of those in a line with 1K bulbs in each of the nine sockets per unit and could light a whole street with them, but the studio photographers also had access to them when there wasn't a lot of location work going on. One ninelight would often be used to artifice daylight or moonlight coming in through a window on a set. It's a softer source than a single big fesnel would be, even with a lot of diffusion going on, so it looks more natural. I really wish I had access to a soundstage and that sort of equipment to be creating images with right now. One factor against those systems is cost, another is their power requirements, and even worse is the heat they generate. On a soundstage you have the massive A/C blocks and 40' or higher ceilings so it isn't such a problem, but in a small studio like most photographers use, it's just crazy to try to light like that, you'll melt the crew. Aug 07 07 01:34 pm Link George Hurrell is that what you are interested in? The original post is with regards to fresnel lights. There is a ton of good information here, all of it valid because you said you want to buy lights but your not sure what lights to get other than an indication of a kit using fresnel theater style lights. As a reference to guide you in your search, avoid photographic suppliers. You want theater lighting suppliers. Put in âfresnelâ and look at a few suppliers. An Altman 6inch Fresnel from an online supplier with a lamp, safety cable and filter frame but no electric connector is $100 or less. Sound or film stages are grand, from what you intone you will not be using those so that is off your plate. You are most likely to want a set of lights that you can use in a standard photo studio or living room style setting. I am making assumptions here so I beg your pardon but I have to for lack of information. The information here about Par lights is poorly represented, used Pars with new lamping is like they are giving them away, but this is NOT a light you want. Get into these later. Being that you are a photographer you are most likely not going to want to bother with specialty items likes scoops (we call them bowl reflectors), nor kickers. So donât waste time looking at these for now. This leaves you with two of the main theater lights, they are Fresnel and Leko. Take time and look up in the theater world what these two lighting instruments are and how they are used. The details you may ignore, theater people are not interested in the technology of lighting for film or still. What they will give you is the sense of aesthetes. The Fresnel and Leko are âfocusedâ lighting instruments. The difference between the two are that Lekoâs deliver a controlled light that is totally focused and is about the idea of light. This is what theater is about with the âblack boxâ and the sense of âThe Stageâ. Photographers are more interested in what Fresnels do because the focus light also but unlike a Leko, the shape and form shadows. The fresnel is a photographers light. These instruments shape and form the structure of the transition from the edge of light to the bleed into the shadow. When you light with a fresnel you are mostly concerned with what the shadow is doing and you attenuate light back into the lighted area. So much has been lost in regards to the use of light and lighting instruments. With a lighting instrument applied to still or film called a fresnel, you will find yourself concerned with the rear surface of the fresnel lens. The fine or coarse dimpling on the flat back of the lens effects the transition of light into the shadow. It also effects how the light rebounds back into the penumbra of the lighted area. The unit you get from Altman in the 6 inch Fresnel will not deliver the look found in Hurelle light. Further, if you are going to shoot images in this style with a digital camera you will not get an image that responds to the color palette of a digital camera into the tungsten base that was the film of that period. You must convert modern âfilmâ and equipment to the technique of the Hurelle technique. To do this with Altman 6 inch Fresnel you will need to first modify the look of the light, before adjusting the light on the set place a Rosco #119 Light Hamburg Frost gel in the holder. This will cause a change to the dimpling of the light as it passes to the subject. When you are ready to shoot images you need to insert a Rosco #370 Italian Blue gel to alter the Color Image of the camera (I use this with a Canon 20D). You shoot in full color, George shot in full color onto color responsive B&W film, you must keep this in mind when working. This foolishness that you can alter color in Photoshop is just beyond belief, but I am a Ledite and care not for explanations. What you will have then is a color image that is heavily cyan-blue to the eye with green suppression. This can be taken directly to de-saturate for a sense of the B&W range of density and tone, or you can shift density and tone in the color channel be for converting to de-saturate. Aug 07 07 05:31 pm Link fwiw, my shooting stage is about 25 feet deep and my ceilings are 11-1/2 feet high. Aug 07 07 06:05 pm Link i came upon this stub article in wikipedia: Source Four PARNel Aug 07 07 07:48 pm Link Tim has some good information there. The main issue with the older fresnels is the heat they generate. A a small space can become an unworkable environment in just a few minutes. One should not confuse traditional PARs wit the ETC S4, it's like putting a 1989 Camry next to a 2001 Volvo. Technically PAR is the correct term, the main feature of the fixture being a parabolic angled reflector, but that name tends to refer to independent spotlights mounted in cases of little more substance than a common coffee can. S4 PARs are not PAR cans. The S4's are advanced fresnels which have an integrated parabolic angled reflector. Aug 07 07 07:52 pm Link PARs are not a good choice for what you are trying to do. They have an eliptical light patern. A "very narrow spot" is way to concentrated ... you would have to put the lamp a block away (slight exaggeration) to stop from removing skin from model 8-0. Seeing as you live in NY, why not just rent some fixtures to experiment with? Rental costs are low. BTW where do you plug in a 5K except a film studio? Chuck Aug 07 07 11:56 pm Link I'm quite happy with my Strand 6" Fresnel.. though I'm thinking of adding an 8" now that I have a larger studio. Aug 08 07 12:07 am Link c d embrey wrote: The PARs I'm not talking about are not what you're thinking about. As I said, they're advanced fresnels with a PAR built into them. Aug 08 07 01:32 am Link Sorry I read some of the thread, but not all. It got kind of boaring. There were some great lights mentioned, up till where I stoped. Hollywood uses alot of lamps and a realy big diffuser to get the shot they want..... And your right, with continuas what you see is what you get... Westcott has come out with some new daylight ballanced florecent lights saving on the eltc bill, while giving you more than enough light to shoot what you need to shoot. Kit's range from $200 on up depending on how much you need. Though these lights are strong and can do what ever you need them to do, Strobes can give you alot more at a reasonable rate, just learn how to use them. Aug 08 07 01:58 am Link I'm sure this was covered, but if it wasn't don't listen to any of these people. :-) I buy Mole Junior Solar Spot 2K's from Pyramid Pictures in Sun Valley, CA. They always have great used stuff on Ebay. They have a simple 110 plug and anything bigger is almost too uncomfortable to stand in front of unless it's pretty far away. This shot in my portfolio here has the 2K as a main light (with diffusion in front of the light): https://modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pid=3615119 Here's one he has up right now: http://cgi.ebay.com/Mole-Richardson-412 … QQihZ008QQ Although I can't tell which plug that one has. Aug 08 07 02:16 am Link That's a nice looking Junior, but he said he wants 1000w max per light. Definitely a good option though. Lots of bang for your buck, and serious quality with Mole's lens. Aug 08 07 02:50 am Link for hot lights, why limit yourself to 1k? 2k units will run from most dedicated home circuits and the extra kick is a great advantage. i started with 650watt or 1k sized fresnels, but eventually needed to buy several 2k sized fixtures. my main reason, i realized 2k lamps were needed when working indoors in rooms where you must compete with sunlight and ambient light from open windows. with ctb or diffusers, 2k may still come up a bit short in such instances, but its a stop closer then your 1k (a significant stop). and of course you can always cut your output if needed.. if you have the cash, i'd recommend starting with at least one or two 2k lights, fresnel or open face depending on your needs. plus a few 1k fresnels. grip equipment is equally important. and if you move on to strobes, i'll take those hot lights off your hands. = ) Aug 08 07 03:36 am Link Ched wrote: i'd like to thank Ched for his time in allowing me to check out his lighting equipment yesterday. Aug 09 07 05:16 am Link GAETANO CATELLI STUDIOS wrote: Again the Fresnel gives a certain quality of light. THe edge is very important and so is the flood spot abaility of it. If you are looking to emulate and copy the old style of lighting then use the type of lights they used. YOu cna get away with less powered lights since the film we have now is much faster than back then. Plus you are not going to be shooting 8x10 glass plate negatives. Aug 09 07 10:21 am Link House of Indulgence wrote: i think "homage", rather than emulation, may be closer to what i'm attempting. for example, my understanding is that modern b&w movies are typically shot on color stock and then converted to b&w. yet the results can be positively gorgeous ("Good Night and Good Luck", for example). Aug 09 07 11:21 am Link |
