Aryx wrote:
Everybody go easy on him....

I know enough about the forms to expect a few rants about improper behavior, but that's not what my question is about.

I've got the release form covered.  I'm just trying to make sure that, in my ignorant innocence, I'm not missing anything.

I's dotted, T's crossed and all that.

FAS Studios wrote:

I know enough about the forms to expect a few rants about improper behavior, but that's not what my question is about.

I've got the release form covered.  I'm just trying to make sure that, in my ignorant innocence, I'm not missing anything.

I's dotted, T's crossed and all that.

I know that... but so many people here in the forums will see the title and jump in with their $.02 about something that doesn't have to do with your question.

My advice would simply to be do all that you think is right, make it a comfortable shoot for both you and the model, and (theoretically) things should be fine.

Michael Longeneker wrote:
I think it is best if a parent or guardian is present, they will need to sign the release anyway. You should bring an assistant. You will want one anyway if you are outdoors to hold reflectors and such. Have fun!

An assistant will be present.  And I'll invite the model to bring a friend.  We always encourage models working with us for the first time to bring someone.  It's just good policy all around.  :-)

Aryx wrote:
I know that... but so many people here in the forums will see the title and jump in with their $.02 about something that doesn't have to do with your question.

Sad, yet true.

Aryx wrote:
My advice would simply to be do all that you think is right, make it a comfortable shoot for both you and the model, and (theoretically) things should be fine.

I figured I was good with the release form, but now a days you never know.

FAS Studios wrote:
I figured I was good with the release form, but now a days you never know.

And you probably are... as much as any release form is.

You've gotta treat them like any other model. I've got three models under 18 in my port (well, 2 of them have turned 18 since the shoot). And I've shot even more still. And I'm setting up plans for some others. They can be just as fun (and funny, too) as adult models.
You'll be alright!

FAS Studios wrote:
I need  bit of advice (if I may impose).

I'm scheduling a shoot with a 16 year old model....

Just let her bring her BF escort who is there for her and your protection. That way, if there is an untoward allegation, the escort can protect you.

FAS Studios wrote:
I need  bit of advice (if I may impose).

I'm scheduling a shoot with a 16 year old model.  We're going to do some casual/outdoorsy sets in the Willamette Gorge.  I have an underage model release form that she and her parent/guardian will sign.  All the sets will be casual/Old Navy style stuff (so nothing lude or untoward).

This will be our studio's second time shooting with an under 18 model, so I'm trying to figure out... is there anything else I'm missing?  Does the parent/guardian need to be present at the shoot?  Any other wiggle or twist about shooting with an underage model I haven't thought about? 

I want to be sure we're doing everything on the up and up.  I just can't find info anywhere covering all the do's, don'ts and must have's for shooting with an underage model.  I'm worried there's some legal wiggle I'm not thinking of.  You know how our law happy society gets.

You've all been at this game longer than I have.  I'm hoping you may have some insight, guidance, or answer that will help me be sure I'm keeping in the right with this.

Thank you for your help.  :-)

My goodness, you make it sound like you're about to go crocodile wrestling!

The rules are very very simple:

#1  Don't shoot porn with this model

#2  Don't try to f~@& this model

Sawaan Gundy Studio wrote:
This is one of my favorite forum topics because I get to read about the most wildest paranoid opinions from everyone ... but you guys are disappointing me today.  Where did all of the paranoid photographers go?

(not wanting to disappoint) ....
I think they're staying away from a thread like this because they know it will bring them bad luck. Too much thinking about shooting alone with a minor makes them realize that they'll most likely lose their house in the ensuing lawsuit. The father of the model will return to the studio in a rage and bust up all the equipment and set the studio on fire. With no means of support and brain damage after the beating in the parking lot by the  father and brother of the model, the wife will leave him and his children will go into foster care because Child Services will certainly not leave children with a known prevert. The children will probably be better off in foster care trying to recover from the trauma of the minors older brother coming into their home and slaughtering the family pets in front of the children and video taping it and putting it on YouTube. And somehow the photographer getting outed in public will be worked into this horror story, most likely by their being caught on 'To Catch a Predator' with Chris Hansen making them look like a fool. Conviction on these, what must have been lewd acts with his undersized organ, will obviously result in some jail time with a lifelong registration of being a sexual predator.

They know that being paranoid about this doesn't mean that all this won't happen.

FAS Studios wrote:
I want to be sure we're doing everything on the up and up.  I just can't find info anywhere covering all the do's, don'ts and must have's for shooting with an underage model.

Thats because there is no difference in shooting a 16yr old model vs. a 28yr old model. 

The only issue comes in from someone under 18 being able to be bound to a contract, thus the need for the parent to sign the release.  Thats it.

Madcrow Studios wrote:
I shoot under-18s quite a bit, and it's really much less of a big deal then what people make it seem. Keep mommy and/or daddy close at hand and try not to do anything too sexy and everything should be fine.

One thing I've noted is that while legally speaking, having an underage model co-sign paperwork is meaningless (only the parent's signature counts), I've found that, at least in my case, they seem to be more involved and "into" the shoot when they're expected to read and sign stuff too. It gives them a sort of sense of "this is mine, not just my mom's) which can be quite useful.

I agree with this too, having them sign is legally pointless,  but it gives them some ownership which is a good thing.  Not to mention it teaches them and helps prepare them for the future when the legal responsibility is in their hands.

J C KUNSTFOTOGRAFIE wrote:
#2  Don't try to f~@& this model[/b]

Unless your in a state where the legal age of consent is 16, which it is in most states.   If thats the case it would just make you an unprofessional creep, not a criminal.

Midwest Photographic wrote:

I agree with this too, having them sign is legally pointless,  but it gives them some ownership which is a good thing.  Not to mention it teaches them and helps prepare them for the future when the legal responsibility is in their hands.

I find this "signing of documents" to be totally useless and time-wasting if the shoot is a test/trade/for portfolio and brings unnecessary legal gobbledy-gook into what is supposed to be an ad hoc affair.

Ümar wrote:
IMHO since you have all the forms signed. As a professional the protocol of behavior is universal. Its always important to have an adult esp her parent present. What if the 16 year old becomes petulent, pissed or whatever and says something that is not true or happened. In such situations its her word and your word, thus the equilizer is a parent. At the slightest hint or discomfort on your part I would end the shoot.

Forgive me if I am being too cautious but, at times its not worth the hassle if your State laws do not permit.

I have no interest in forgiving you for being too cautious. Makes no difference to me. I won't forgive you for a very silly proposition either.

Do you seriously think that the model's parent is going to back you if the model alleges that you did something sexual?

Let's imagine this for a moment....

Father, Model enters studio: Hello there - you must be the photographer.

Photographer: Yes, come right in. I see your lovely daughter brought several outfits. This should be a great shoot.

Model: I can't wait to squirm myself into these clothes and get my picture taken. I'll feel like a real model!!!! 

F: Ok sweetheart, go on and get changed.

P: Do you want to come back in the studio or wait out here?

F: (seeing football game on the TV)
    Uh, yeah, no you guys do your thing and I'll be right here. I'd just be in the way!
    (goes back to watching the game)

M: Hey how do I look? Is my makeup ok??

P: You look terrific. Hop up on this stool and let me check the lighting.



M: (feeling a little weirded out by all the attention she's not used to)
    (she starts crying and feels embarassed - decides on a good strategy to stop all this since   
      she doesn't feel like she can talk with the photographer)

M: DADDY!!! DADDY!!  (runs out to get Dad)

M: That guy was looking at my boobs a lot and I think he was looking up my skirt.
     AND he touched my head to move my pose!!



F: He was looking at your boobs??

M: yes . He was looking at me weird, kinda sexual like and all. And he touched my head to move it for some poses!!

F: Well, aren't you a little slut! Accusing this professional photographer, a pillar of the community of this kind of lewd behavior. What kind of trampy daughter have I raised?? I bet that bitch of your mother has been giving you whoring lessons!!

P: Boy, I don't know how she got so upset!  I'm really sorry about this. I thought things were going so well!

F: No worries. It's obvious now that my daughter is just a little slut. Just like her mother. My family is just me and a couple of whores. Sorry about this.

----- applause for all the actors ------

Yeah -- this is exactly how it would work. 

ANYONE the model brings will not equalize things for you and the photographer who thinks so will find a fool behind his camera.

Curt Burgess wrote:

I have no interest in forgiving your for being too cautious. Makes no difference to me. I won't forgive you for a very silly proposition either.

Do you seriously think that the model's parent is going to back you if the model alleges that you did something sexual?

Let's imagine this for a moment....

Father, Model enters studio: Hello there - you must be the photographer.

Photographer: Yes, come right in. I see your lovely daughter brought several outfits. This should be a great shoot.

Model: I can't wait to squirm myself into these clothes and get my picture taken. I'll feel like a real model!!!! 

F: Ok sweetheart, go on and get changed.

P: Do you want to come back in the studio or wait out here?

F: (seeing football game on the TV)
    Uh, yeah, no you guys do your thing and I'll be right here. I'd just be in the way!
    (goes back to watching the game)

M: Hey how do I look? Is my makeup ok??

P: You look terrific. Hop up on this stool and let me check the lighting.



M: (feeling a little weirded out by all the attention she's not used to)
    (she starts crying and feels embarassed - decides on a good strategy to stop all this since   
      she doesn't feel like she can talk with the photographer)

M: DADDY!!! DADDY!!  (runs out to get Dad)

M: That guy was looking at my boobs a lot and I think he was looking up my skirt.
     AND he touched my head to move my pose!!



F: He was looking at your boobs??

M: yes . He was looking at me weird, kinda sexual like and all. And he touched my head to move it for some poses!!

F: Well, aren't you a little slut! Accusing this professional photographer, a pillar of the community of this kind of lewd behavior. What kind of trampy daughter have I raised?? I bet that bitch of your mother has been giving you whoring lessons!!

P: Boy, I don't know how she got so upset!  I'm really sorry about this. I thought things were going so well!

F: No worries. It's obvious now that my daughter is just a little slut. Just like her mother. My family is just me and a couple of whores. Sorry about this.

----- applause for all the actors ------

Yeah -- this is exactly how it would work. 

ANYONE the model brings will not equalize things for you and the photographer who thinks so will find a fool behind his camera.

. . . and then there are the shoots where the parent says: "That's not sexy enough!"

FAS Studios wrote:
Any other wiggle or twist about shooting with an underage model I haven't thought about?

Have you notified Homeland Security?

These kinds of posts crack me up!

J C KUNSTFOTOGRAFIE wrote:

My goodness, you make it sound like you're about to go crocodile wrestling!

The rules are very very simple:

#1  Don't shoot porn with this model

#2  Don't try to f~@& this model

lol!!! And dont use sex toys as props!!

Carla Frances wrote:
Didn't Brooke Shields do her famous "nothing comes between me and my calvins" ads when she was underage? she was topless! no nipples, but still...

Yes, not to mention thats the case and more revealing for A LOT of CK models, where even though in the final shot the "bits" were covered, but you know they had to be naked and parading around that way in front of the photographer and staff to get the shot.  Of course that is perfectly legal, its just those kinds of things people that taut the paranoia do not stop to think about.

J C KUNSTFOTOGRAFIE wrote:

I find this "signing of documents" to be totally useless and time-wasting if the shoot is a test/trade/for portfolio and brings unnecessary legal gobbledy-gook into what is supposed to be an ad hoc affair.

Your right about that.
Being a parent myself and always looking for an opportunity to teach I can say that I would have my daughter sign the release as well, just to start teaching her to look over paperwork, know that the signing of something carries weight, learning about agreements and obligation etc.   

Legally of course it is meaningless, but they need to start learning these ins and outs at some point so that when they do turn 18, and that power is in their hands they have some knowledge.   

Just my parental 2c.

PYPI wrote:
You don't need the minor's signature. It's meaningless. An adult escort is a good idea but not required. Don't shoot anything lewd and you'll be fine.

Madcrow Studios wrote:
One thing I've noted is that while legally speaking, having an underage model co-sign paperwork is meaningless (only the parent's signature counts),

Midwest Photographic wrote:
I agree with this too, having them sign is legally pointless,  but it gives them some ownership which is a good thing.  Not to mention it teaches them and helps prepare them for the future when the legal responsibility is in their hands.

Sorry, but it is amazing how many of you have missed this.  It seems that the general consensus is that it is pointless to have a minor co-sign a release.  Most of you think that the signature of a minor carries no weight.  I'm sorry to tell you that you really ned to re-think that because it could some day come back to bite you.

If you re-phrase your statement so it says that:  "From a practical standpoint having a minor co-sign the release will probably make no difference" you are probably right.  Not from a legal standpoint.

The reason you don't accept a release signed by the minor alone is NOT that it would be invalid.  It would be totally valid.  The problem is that it would be rescindible.  That means the minor could change his/her mind days, weeks or months later.  Having the parent sign the release provides durability since they have the right to enter into a contract on the behalf of a minor.

The problem is that the parent's right is not absolute.  In some states, a minor will have the option of rescinding a contract when they reach the age of majority (in some of the states that allow it, there are restrictions as to cause), even if properly signed by a parent.  There have been decisions in many parts of the country that don't permit rescission to find contracts entered into by parents on behalf of their minor children as void if there is evidence of fraud.

Having the minor co-sign the release shows evidence of informed consent.  An issue at trial might be the competence of the minor to understand what they were signing, but in most cases, with teens, competency will be found.  The point then is that informed consent will generally act as a defense against rescission.

Let's take an example.  You shoot a minor and require a full, commercial release. You pay the parents $500.  You sell the photo to Revlon.  You may not know it, but there could be discussions in the wings with the parents with Maybelline for $10,000 but it seems like a long shot and the parents want the $500 now.  They never tell their daughter.  She is seventeen but will turn eighteen in a few weeks. 

Lo and behold, a few weeks later the megabucks deal comes through but the girl can't take it because of the conflict.  She was never told.  A good attorney might be able to enforce rescission because of parental fraud and deception.  On the other hand, with a co-signature, the argument would be that she understood the rights she signed away.

I agree that in most cases that is a stretch. That is why I suggested that from a practical standpoint, it makes little difference.  From a legal standpoint, though it does.  I can give other examples and there is caselaw on the matter.

There is no downside to having the minor co-sign the document.   While the chances that you will need it are remote, there is a very good legal reason to do it.

FAS Studios wrote:
I need  bit of advice (if I may impose).

I'm scheduling a shoot with a 16 year old model.  We're going to do some casual/outdoorsy sets in the Willamette Gorge.  I have an underage model release form that she and her parent/guardian will sign.  All the sets will be casual/Old Navy style stuff (so nothing lude or untoward).

This will be our studio's second time shooting with an under 18 model, so I'm trying to figure out... is there anything else I'm missing?  Does the parent/guardian need to be present at the shoot?  Any other wiggle or twist about shooting with an underage model I haven't thought about? 

I want to be sure we're doing everything on the up and up.  I just can't find info anywhere covering all the do's, don'ts and must have's for shooting with an underage model.  I'm worried there's some legal wiggle I'm not thinking of.  You know how our law happy society gets.

You've all been at this game longer than I have.  I'm hoping you may have some insight, guidance, or answer that will help me be sure I'm keeping in the right with this.

Thank you for your help.  :-)

Have fun!!  Hell, we have been shooting class pictures for years already!

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
There is no downside to having the minor co-sign the document.   While the chances that you will need it are remote, there is a very good legal reason to do it.

Cool to hear that my practice has real legal benefits as well as the psychological benefits for the minor...