Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
I've been doing some research on whether or not i need to get a permit to shoot on a public beach in southern california. Orange county to be more specific. But what if i wanted to go to an LA county beach?
I'm supposed to be shooting tomorrow morning and i just had my first encounter in long beach yesterday with someone from the city and i was caught without a permit.( i didn't know it was required as i was in a public place in a under freeway walking only tunnel.) The guy was super cool and just said he'd notify the people that called him that it was for a school related project.
I will not be shooting for commercial reasons, however i will have this equipment with me:
Rebel Xti
soft box with attached white lightning and stand
umbrella with attached white lightning and stand
tripod
portable motor generator
a bag to transport my lights
a backpack wtih all my lenses etc.
One model and probable escort will be accompanying me.
so far i have found this, however i do not know if it is up-to-date.
(NOTE. I will only be using my photos for private use, basically just posting them on modelmayhem/myspace) That counts right?
Orange County Codified Ordinances
[Codified Ordinances, County of Orange, California]
[Title 5, Business and Special Licenses, Regulations]
[Division 3, Specific Additional License Requirements and Business Regulations]
[Article 23, Permit Requirements for Commercial Motion Picture Productions, Television Productions and Still Photography]
Sec. 5-3-337. Film permit required.
Except as provided in section 5-3-338, a person shall not use any County property within the unincorporated areas of the County of Orange or property or facilities belonging to the County of Orange or the special districts under the jurisdiction of the Orange County Board of Supervisors for the purpose of motion picture production, television production or still photography without first applying for and receiving a film permit from the issuing agency.
(Ord. No. 3717, § 1, 6-14-88)
Sec. 5-3-338. Exemptions.
(c) This article does not apply to the filming or video taping of motion pictures or the taking of still photographs solely for private use.
(Ord. No. 3717, § 1, 6-14-88)
Any information would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks.
ps. no one that will be at this shoot is currently enrolled in school, nor is it for a school project.
Photographer
pullins photography
Posts: 5884
Troy, Michigan, US
SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
I've been doing some research on whether or not i need to get a permit to shoot on a public beach in southern california. Orange county to be more specific. But what if i wanted to go to an LA county beach?
I'm supposed to be shooting tomorrow morning and i just had my first encounter in long beach yesterday with someone from the city and i was caught without a permit.( i didn't know it was required as i was in a public place in a under freeway walking only tunnel.) The guy was super cool and just said he'd notify the people that called him that it was for a school related project.
I will not be shooting for commercial reasons, however i will have this equipment with me:
Rebel Xti
soft box with attached white lightning and stand
umbrella with attached white lightning and stand
tripod
portable motor generator
a bag to transport my lights
a backpack wtih all my lenses etc.
One model and probable escort will be accompanying me.
so far i have found this, however i do not know if it is up-to-date.
(NOTE. I will only be using my photos for private use, basically just posting them on modelmayhem/myspace) That counts right?
Orange County Codified Ordinances
[Codified Ordinances, County of Orange, California]
[Title 5, Business and Special Licenses, Regulations]
[Division 3, Specific Additional License Requirements and Business Regulations]
[Article 23, Permit Requirements for Commercial Motion Picture Productions, Television Productions and Still Photography]
Sec. 5-3-337. Film permit required.
Except as provided in section 5-3-338, a person shall not use any County property within the unincorporated areas of the County of Orange or property or facilities belonging to the County of Orange or the special districts under the jurisdiction of the Orange County Board of Supervisors for the purpose of motion picture production, television production or still photography without first applying for and receiving a film permit from the issuing agency.
(Ord. No. 3717, § 1, 6-14-88)
Sec. 5-3-338. Exemptions.
(c) This article does not apply to the filming or video taping of motion pictures or the taking of still photographs solely for private use.
(Ord. No. 3717, § 1, 6-14-88)
Any information would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks.
ps. no one that will be at this shoot is currently enrolled in school, nor is it for a school project. I'd go to the proper authorities on monday and make sure you get the right answer
Photographer
EL Perdido
Posts: 9401
TERLINGUA, Texas, US
What are you going to use the photographs for?
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
I'd go to the proper authorities on monday and make sure you get the right answer Well i'm planning on finding a police officer and talking to him/her before i start so see if they think its cool. I really don't know where to go otherwise.
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Zopilote wrote:
What are you going to use the photographs for? Just posting on modelmayhem/myspace
that is personal use right?
I'm not selling anything
Photographer
EL Perdido
Posts: 9401
TERLINGUA, Texas, US
SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
Just posting on modelmayhem/myspace
that is personal use right?
I'm not selling anything You or the model aren't going to use the photographs for a portfolio to generate business?
Photographer
Gregory Prescott Photo
Posts: 1067
Los Angeles, California, US
In southern California you need a permit to fart. They try to milk every penny they can out of you.
Photographer
190608
Posts: 2383
Los Angeles, California, US
Edited Already discussed above. Zopilote wrote:
What are you going to use the photographs for?
Photographer
Darren Wellhoefer
Posts: 992
Newport Beach, California, US
SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
Well i'm planning on finding a police officer and talking to him/her before i start so see if they think its cool. I really don't know where to go otherwise. just you and a model? i wouldn't worry. i never had an issue and ive walked by cops with model and they never said a thing except stared at my model.
might be a different case if you brought 20 people all holding reflectors, laptops, etc...
you and model? no worries.
~dw
Photographer
Yves Duchamp - Femme
Posts: 24436
Virginia Beach, Virginia, US
Zopilote wrote:
You or the model aren't going to use the photographs for a portfolio to generate business? ?
Portfolio is personal use, I thought.
Photographer
EL Perdido
Posts: 9401
TERLINGUA, Texas, US
Shon D Photography wrote:
?
Portfolio is personal use, I thought. Is the portfolio to generate business or try to find bookings?
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Zopilote wrote:
You or the model aren't going to use the photographs for a portfolio to generate business? i guess you have a point. but that is considered commercial use? even though i'm not selling the pictures i will be currently taking? Sorry i'm pretty new to this whole permits/commercial vs. non commercial thing.
Photographer
EL Perdido
Posts: 9401
TERLINGUA, Texas, US
SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
i guess you have a point. but that is considered commercial use? even though i'm not selling the pictures i will be currently taking? Sorry i'm pretty new to this whole permits/commercial vs. non commercial thing. Commercial
Photographer
190608
Posts: 2383
Los Angeles, California, US
Nope. Shon D Photography wrote:
?
Portfolio is personal use, I thought.
Photographer
Rp-photo
Posts: 42711
Houston, Texas, US
Ronald N Tan wrote:
The OP is planning to bring along professional equipment, particularly a generator. That is just screaming to warrant a permit.
Even if you're shooting for your portfolio and there isn't any financial exchanges, it is still a commercial shoot and that requires a permit.
ronald n. tan
www.ronaldntan.com The need for a permit ought to be based solely on the impact of the shoot, for which a permit may be warranted in this case.
There would then be no need to split hairs over what is commercial and what isn't.
I can never understand why image usage should be any of their business.
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Darren Wellhoefer wrote:
just you and a model? i wouldn't worry. i never had an issue and ive walked by cops with model and they never said a thing except stared at my model.
might be a different case if you brought 20 people all holding reflectors, laptops, etc...
you and model? no worries.
~dw I really hope that is the case. I only got worried because of what happened yesterday but i guess LA county is a lot more strict with that stuff. Hopefully
Photographer
Cthulhu77
Posts: 1142
Gilbert, Arizona, US
Photographer
BandW
Posts: 209
Newton, New Jersey, US
Rebel Xti
soft box with attached white lightning and stand
umbrella with attached white lightning and stand
tripod
portable motor generator
a bag to transport my lights
a backpack wtih all my lenses etc.
Quite a list, it may be hard to convince the cops that you are not doing commercial work. A generator and light stands look very commercial...
Photographer
190608
Posts: 2383
Los Angeles, California, US
You quoted me when I was editing because the idea of commercial vs. personal was discussed above. RE: Image Usage I think that it is fair that the state gets funding from image usage just like we photographers make a living from charging our clients based on how our images are being used. --Ron rp_photo wrote:
The need for a permit ought to be based solely on the impact of the shoot, for which a permit may be warranted in this case.
I can never understand why image usage should be any of their business.
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Zopilote wrote:
Is the portfolio to generate business or try to find bookings? Sorry, but is there a difference?
I'm building my portfolio to better accomplish myself as a photographer and if someday someone looks at my stuff and wants to hire me. Awesome.
Photographer
190608
Posts: 2383
Los Angeles, California, US
That is commercial. Personal is when these photos go into a snapshot album or on your wall in the living room. SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
Sorry, but is there a difference?
I'm building my portfolio to better accomplish myself as a photographer and if someday someone looks at my stuff and wants to hire me. Awesome.
Photographer
Rp-photo
Posts: 42711
Houston, Texas, US
Ronald N Tan wrote:
I think that it is fair that the state gets funding from image usage just like we photographers make a living from charging our clients based on how our images are being used. You have already paid income and business tax to the state in order to support the property, so why are they entitled to more?
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
There really isn't a way to prove to an officer that the shoot isn't commercial with the equipment i'm bringing is there?
Photographer
EL Perdido
Posts: 9401
TERLINGUA, Texas, US
rp_photo wrote:
You have already paid income and business tax to the state in order to support the property, so why are they entitled to more? Because that is the way the elected representatives who made the laws, statutes and regulations want it to be.
Photographer
Rp-photo
Posts: 42711
Houston, Texas, US
SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
There really isn't a way to prove to an officer that the shoot isn't commercial with the equipment i'm bringing is there? Guilty until proven innocent.
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Ronald N Tan wrote:
That is commercial. Personal is when these photos go into a snapshot album or on your wall in the living room. That seems pretty lame to me. I'm not even getting paid for anything and i still have to pay $150? and a $500 security deposit? (correct me if i'm wrong on the $ amounts)
Photographer
EL Perdido
Posts: 9401
TERLINGUA, Texas, US
SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
[That seems pretty lame to me. I'm not even getting paid for anything and i still have to pay $150? and a $500 security deposit? (correct me if i'm wrong on the $ amounts) Hey, that's the "industry"
Photographer
190608
Posts: 2383
Los Angeles, California, US
It sucks, but that is how it is here in SoCal. Why not go to the beaches in Malibu? The permit fee is only $65, but having read that you're going to be having a generator, the beach might require a monitor that you'll have to compensate hourly. If you want to consider shooting in Malibu, I can help you out with the person to contact. Edited: Do you have liability insurance? If not, you can't have a permit. SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
Ronald N Tan wrote:
That is commercial. Personal is when these photos go into a snapshot album or on your wall in the living room. That seems pretty lame to me. I'm not even getting paid for anything and i still have to pay $150? and a $500 security deposit? (correct me if i'm wrong on the $ amounts)
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Zopilote wrote:
Hey, that's the "industry" Looks like i'm going to have to change some plans, get a better job, or make some friends. there's no way i can afford to do that on any sort of repetitive basis.
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Ronald N Tan wrote:
It sucks, but that is how it is here in SoCal.
Why not go to the beaches in Malibu? The permit fee is only $65, but having read that you're going to be having a generator, the beach might require a monitor that you'll have to compensate hourly.
If you want to consider shooting in Malibu, I can help you out with the person to contact.
Edited: Do you have liability insurance? If not, you can't have a permit. I have liability insurance for my car, that's it.
It would be better and easier for me to save up and get portable battery power i'm guessing.
looks like i'll be starting to save some serious dough.
Photographer
190608
Posts: 2383
Los Angeles, California, US
Having a liability insurance towards your vehicle is insufficient. You need a photographer (commercial) insurance that you can name the entities as additionally insured in the amount of $2 million. I don't want to condone the practice of guerilla-style shoots, but if you're that inclined on shooting on that beach in OC, I recommend you carry with you minimal equipment and just do it quick and get out. SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
I have liability insurance for my car, that's it.
It would be better and easier for me to save up and get portable battery power i'm guessing.
looks like i'll be starting to save some serious dough.
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
i guess you have a point. but that is considered commercial use? even though i'm not selling the pictures i will be currently taking? Sorry i'm pretty new to this whole permits/commercial vs. non commercial thing. You have to read the statute or ordinance for the location you are actually going to shoot (it depends on city or county), but a portfolio, by definition, is generally considered commercial. It doesn't matter if you are selling those pictures or not.
The purpose of the photos is to advertise you.
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Ronald N Tan wrote:
Having a liability insurance towards your vehicle is insufficient. You need a photographer (commercial) insurance that you can name the entities as additionally insured in the amount of $2 million.
I don't want to condone the practice of guerilla-style shoots, but if you're that inclined on shooting on that beach in OC, I recommend you carry with you minimal equipment and just do it quick and get out. how much does that insurance cost a month/year etc?
And yeah regarding your 2nd point. Ive just recently acquired my more "professional stuff" lighting etc. It seems like its almost more a burden then anything right now. I've done plenty of shoots with just my camera and my 580ex II but obviously i want to take the next step.
FUNNNN stuff.
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
You have to read the statute or ordinance for the location you are actually going to shoot (it depends on city or county), but a portfolio, by definition, is generally considered commercial. It doesn't matter if you are selling those pictures or not.
The purpose of the photos is to advertise you. yeah that does make sense.... I'm assuming that information could be found at the Department of Parks and Recreation office, wherever that is.
Photographer
190608
Posts: 2383
Los Angeles, California, US
As for this photographer's insurance, expect to pay min. 500 something per year depending on the equipment you add onto their schedule (list of equipment that you want to be insured under the policy). SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
how much does that insurance cost a month/year etc?
And yeah regarding your 2nd point. Ive just recently acquired my more "professional stuff" lighting etc. It seems like its almost more a burden then anything right now. I've done plenty of shoots with just my camera and my 580ex II but obviously i want to take the next step.
FUNNNN stuff.
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
So the purpose of acquiring insurance is solely for your equipment? is that so you cant sue the state/county when you drop your camera off a cliff or in the water or something? I would have thought it would have been for yourself or your model.. Insurance besides motor vehicles/homes i thought was your choice to protect your stuff.
shows how much i know!
Photographer
190608
Posts: 2383
Los Angeles, California, US
It is for your equipment plus liability issues. If your model trips on a state owned property, the model can sue the state and all that and the state of CA doesn't want that. Here is a link from the CA State of Film Commissions: http://www.film.ca.gov/Permits/Insurance.html Please use the following wording:
The State of California, including its agencies, departments, officers, agents, employees and servants is named as an Additional Insured with respect to liability arising out of the operations related to filming on California State owned or operated property. That is the exact wording needed to be issued a permit provided that you have obtained a photographer's insurance and have asked your insurance company to issue you this certificate naming the State of CA as the additionally insured. SAW PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
So the purpose of acquiring insurance is solely for your equipment? is that so you cant sue the state/county when you drop your camera off a cliff or in the water or something? I would have thought it would have been for yourself or your model.. Insurance besides motor vehicles/homes i thought was your choice to protect your stuff.
shows how much i know!
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Ronald N Tan wrote:
It is for your equipment plus liability issues. If your model trips on a state owned property, the model can sue the state and all that and the state of CA doesn't want that.
Here is a link from the CA State of Film Commissions: http://www.film.ca.gov/Permits/Insurance.html
Please use the following wording:
The State of California, including its agencies, departments, officers, agents, employees and servants is named as an Additional Insured with respect to liability arising out of the operations related to filming on California State owned or operated property.
That is the exact wording needed to be issued a permit provided that you have obtained a photographer's insurance and have asked your insurance company to issue you this certificate naming the State of CA as the additionally insured. you have provided me with more info that i expected to receive. Thank you 
Photographer
Scott Allen Wilson
Posts: 129
Florence, Toscana, Italy
i guess all in all it will be in my best interest stick to bringing my back pack and my camera and shoot in an isolate location. until i start getting paid for my work.
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