ericphotonyc wrote:
Can you play with it before you buy it?

Shoot what you shoot.  See how it feels.

I have shot with a 2 light speedotron kit before, but now it is my money on the line...
No places around here rent Speedotrons, brownline or Blackline and no one I know has anything but Alien bees.

TREVOR GODINHO wrote:
the black line is much more rugged than the brownline did alot of looking into it b4 i got my blackline ..

See, these are the kinds of things I like to know.

Kevin_Connery wrote:
It's durable, will last forever, and it's not the most flexible system due to limited power adjustments. Mixing different heads will also make things more difficult; if you go this route, I'd suggest getting all M11 heads for convenience.

That said, a used Blackline system is likely a better option. They're generally lighter weight for the same power, recycle more quickly, are even more robust, and have more power options. It's generally much easier to find rental equipment in Blackline than Brownline as well.

Nevertheless, a Speedo Brown setup is perfectly viable--I did a lot of shooting with a couple of smaller packs and some heads, before adding some Blackline and ultimately migrating to that.

Something I didn't think about, was mixing the heads, thanks. That is a useful tidbit of information.
I guess I need to go back to Speedotron's site and research the blackline much more.

Lazyi Photography wrote:
Alien bees.

There's your answer.  They are built like tanks, have a great warranty and customer service and are not guilty of nearly as much tripe as gets thrown at them.  I have them and love them.

Maybe your acquaintances that have them will let you take a test drive.

Lazyi Photography wrote:

Something I didn't think about, was mixing the heads, thanks. That is a useful tidbit of information.
I guess I need to go back to Speedotron's site and research the blackline much more.

I see you're in Cleveland. I'm in Milwaukee and have five 4803 packs. Two of which never seem to get used. I could cut you a sweet deal on one of them with a 102 head included.

Black Ricco wrote:

I see you're in Cleveland. I'm in Milwaukee and have five 4803 packs. Two of which never seem to get used. I could cut you a sweet deal on one of them with a 102 head included.

If he's not interested I could use a couple more 4800's.

DiamondCreek wrote:

There's your answer.  They are built like tanks, have a great warranty and customer service and are not guilty of nearly as much tripe as gets thrown at them.  I have them and love them.

Maybe your acquaintances that have them will let you take a test drive.

Alien Bees are built like tanks compared to Speedotrons?
I have also heard about Alien Bees not being even in their recycle times, giving uneven lighting. Which is why I am interested in a pack system.

Ralph Livingston wrote:

If he's not interested I could use a couple more 4800's.

You're on, Ralph. Let's see what our boy decides to do.

Black Ricco wrote:

You're on, Ralph. Let's see what our boy decides to do.

*cough* email *cough*
I am SERIOUSLY interested in 1.

Lazyi Photography wrote:

*cough* email *cough*
I am SERIOUSLY interested in 1.

WHAT?? Just because this is your thread you think you have first rights?????

Make sure the head has a coated tube or make a decision you want to get all uncoated for your system.

TREVOR GODINHO wrote:
the black line is much more rugged than the brownline did alot of looking into it b4 i got my blackline ..

As an owner of Brownline equipment, I would beg to differ. These things are built just as solid, just with different specs. The advantages of Black line are the ability to use much higher output heads (when using multiple packs through a single head), faster recycling and more control over output. They may also be slightly more consistent in output, but Speedotrons are probably not know as much for consistent output compared to Profoto either way.

The advantages of Brownline are mostly price. You can also get a nice collection of Blackline modifiers while using the M11 heads and eventually upgrade to the Blackline pack and head system without the need to buy new modifiers. I would also call the Brownlines more portable.

There are far too many fully functional Brownline packs from before many of us were born to call them less reliable or rugged than the Blacklines. The limitations in recycle time (about 6 seconds for the 1600w/s pack) make it difficult to overheat the pack or the heads and there really isn't much else to worry about.

To the OP, if you're willing to go used in Blackline, then also consider going used in Brownline and save some money while you decide if Speedotron is for you. They will not likely go down in value, so you'll probably get what you paid for them back whenever you're done with them. Both the Blackline and Brownline are old-school and not for everyone. If you're used to Alien Bee type adjustments, they will be very frustrating. Most of your adjustments will be made by moving a light closer or further instead of moving a slider on a control panel.

I'd try to collect as many M11 heads as you can, as I don't find the others nearly as useful. The M11 can take a reflector of the same size as those on the other heads while also being capable of taking any other Blackline modifier, so there is just no reason to have the other heads. Also, it makes more sense to me to have only one style of flash tube and modeling light to purchase for a spare. The modeling lights on the M11 heads are also much brighter than those of the other heads.

If you want a 1600 w/s pack, get a 400 w/s pack to go with it. 1600 w/s is a ton of light and you just can't dial it down much for smaller spaces. I've got the 800 w/s packs and it can often be a battle in a small room. The 400 w/s pack will buy you another stop or 2 less light when you don't need so much and they can be had for $100 or so. The other nice thing about buying Brownline, is that you can afford to have some redundant packs (not that you'll likely need them as such) as cheap insurance while also providing more flexible lighting options. Having a bunch of these packs could be very useful in situations where you want to have lights spread around, but don't have enough cabling or the ability to use cabling such as larger venues. An extra pack may actually be less expensive than the extension cables, too.

If you need to go portable, the Brownlines will work fine with modified sine wave electricity, as stated by a technician at Speedotron when I asked. They will also only draw around 350 watts during recycle per pack in my experience (with modeling lights off, they use up to an additional 150 watts each), so you don't need much of a power supply to keep them going. I use a 500 watt continuous gas generator by Yamaha to power an 800 w/s pack which recycles in 3 seconds. The 1600 w/s pack takes twice as long to recycle, so I would guess that it would also only draw about 350 watts.

ddtphoto wrote:
speedo blackline. rugged and dependable.

i know tons of photographers that use speedo but none that use brownline stuff. if i recall, the brownline heads don't have fans in them which winds up being the source of a lot of issues.

They are too slow to recycle to cause any issues in my experience.

JMX Photography wrote:
Speedotron brownline and Novatrons are dang near the same thing.  The heads interchange, or they used to anyways.  I would look into a used blackline just based on my Novatron system.  Also from my Novatron experience I'd *highly* recommend against any head with a built in reflector that can't be removed.  Blech!  Tho i've heard Dynalights are really nice too.  Used them once before and they're a reasonable system.  I've never used a blackline system but I've heard nothing but great things about them.  Plus from my research (I had been considering and bidding on blackline gear (I settled on Balcar)) the BL packs are available in higher ws levels.  This may not be that important to you right now, but it's better to have too much and just turn it down.

Another nifty trick when buying pack and head systems is to look for non-working packs and send them out for repair.  I got a 800ws Novatron pack for $50 not working, and spent less than $200 getting it fixed.  Can't say it'll always work out that well, but it's usually caps that go and while they're expensive to replace it can still be a good deal.

Packs over 2400WS are best suited for medium and large format. I need the 4800's for MF digital at ISO 50.

Ralph Livingston wrote:

WHAT?? Just because this is your thread you think you have first rights?????

Make sure the head has a coated tube or make a decision you want to get all uncoated for your system.

LOL

Ralph Livingston wrote:

If he's not interested I could use a couple more 4800's.

this reminds me that another thing to consider is that with digital photography it just seems to turn out that you're using less power than people used to with film. i find myself always trying to get less depth of field and so less power. bleeding heads and etc... to be at f5.6 or less. i have 2 old-school speedo packs (one a 1200 and one a 2400) and one newer 1200 pack with 1/4 stop variater. i use this later pack all the time while the others sit in the closet because i can put a few heads in there and dial it waaaay down so i can shoot wider open.

i rarely see people using the full power you get with even a 2400 anymore unless you're lighting a huge room or something. a 4800 pack is just too much for almost any application anymore. also the 4800's have slow recycle.

so, depending on what you shoot you might look at getting even an 800 pack speedotron blackline and save a few bucks while still getting a better quality than with brownline.

M_M_P wrote:

As an owner of Brownline equipment, I would beg to differ. These things are built just as solid, just with different specs. The advantages of Black line are the ability to use much higher output heads (when using multiple packs through a single head), faster recycling and more control over output. They may also be slightly more consistent in output, but Speedotrons are probably not know as much for consistent output compared to Profoto either way.

The advantages of Brownline are mostly price. You can also get a nice collection of Blackline modifiers while using the M11 heads and eventually upgrade to the Blackline pack and head system without the need to buy new modifiers. I would also call the Brownlines more portable.

There are far too many fully functional Brownline packs from before many of us were born to call them less reliable or rugged than the Blacklines. The limitations in recycle time (about 6 seconds for the 1600w/s pack) make it difficult to overheat the pack or the heads and there really isn't much else to worry about.

To the OP, if you're willing to go used in Blackline, then also consider going used in Brownline and save some money while you decide if Speedotron is for you. They will not likely go down in value, so you'll probably get what you paid for them back whenever you're done with them. Both the Blackline and Brownline are old-school and not for everyone. If you're used to Alien Bee type adjustments, they will be very frustrating. Most of your adjustments will be made by moving a light closer or further instead of moving a slider on a control panel.

I'd try to collect as many M11 heads as you can, as I don't find the others nearly as useful. The M11 can take a reflector of the same size as those on the other heads while also being capable of taking any other Blackline modifier, so there is just no reason to have the other heads. Also, it makes more sense to me to have only one style of flash tube and modeling light to purchase for a spare. The modeling lights on the M11 heads are also much brighter than those of the other heads.

If you want a 1600 w/s pack, get a 400 w/s pack to go with it. 1600 w/s is a ton of light and you just can't dial it down much for smaller spaces. I've got the 800 w/s packs and it can often be a battle in a small room. The 400 w/s pack will buy you another stop or 2 less light when you don't need so much and they can be had for $100 or so. The other nice thing about buying Brownline, is that you can afford to have some redundant packs (not that you'll likely need them as such) as cheap insurance while also providing more flexible lighting options. Having a bunch of these packs could be very useful in situations where you want to have lights spread around, but don't have enough cabling or the ability to use cabling such as larger venues. An extra pack may actually be less expensive than the extension cables, too.

If you need to go portable, the Brownlines will work fine with modified sine wave electricity, as stated by a technician at Speedotron when I asked. They will also only draw around 350 watts during recycle per pack in my experience (with modeling lights off, they use up to an additional 150 watts each), so you don't need much of a power supply to keep them going. I use a 500 watt continuous gas generator by Yamaha to power an 800 w/s pack which recycles in 3 seconds. The 1600 w/s pack takes twice as long to recycle, so I would guess that it would also only draw about 350 watts.

*scratches chin*
Lots of interesting points in this.
I kid you not, I took notes.

Black Ricco wrote:
It's durable, will last forever, and it's not the most flexible system due to limited power adjustments.

I'm gonna hafta disagree with ya there, Kevin. With combine and isolate power adjustments and six inputs you have plenty of options. Plus a few sheets of varied ND gels and you're set to go.

ND gels/filters for lights or lenses are the Speedotron user's best friend. People who don't understand the Symmetrical/Asymmetrical power configurations and the use of Y-cables, etc. haven't truly learned to use this type of system. There are plenty of tricks/techniques to get the lighting you want, they just have to be learned and are not for everyone. It is as flexible as the user is creative.

M_M_P wrote:

ND gels/filters for lights or lenses are the Speedotron user's best friend. People who don't understand the Symmetrical/Asymmetrical power configurations and the use of Y-cables, etc. haven't truly learned to use this type of system. There are plenty of tricks/techniques to get the lighting you want, they just have to be learned and are not for everyone. It is as flexible as the user is creative.

Cosign!

Ralph Livingston wrote:

Packs over 2400WS are best suited for medium and large format. I need the 4800's for MF digital at ISO 50.

See, I am also stepping into medium format, digital and film, so once again this is uber useful information!

M_M_P wrote:

ND gels/filters for lights or lenses are the Speedotron user's best friend. People who don't understand the Symmetrical/Asymmetrical power configurations and the use of Y-cables, etc. haven't truly learned to use this type of system. There are plenty of tricks/techniques to get the lighting you want, they just have to be learned and are not for everyone. It is as flexible as the user is creative.

I saw the y-cables and was wondering about them. Are they truly as useful as I thought they would be?

Lazyi Photography wrote:

I saw the y-cables and was wondering about them. Are they truly as useful as I thought they would be?

Blackline with dial down has soooo many lighting combinations it would be surprising if you needed Y cables. I don't think brown has dial down.

Ralph Livingston wrote:

Packs over 2400WS are best suited for medium and large format. I need the 4800's for MF digital at ISO 50.

I have two Balcar 5000ws packs and a couple of 1600ws monolights.  Even with the pack turned all the way down, in a 2.5 car garage/studio I'm still shooting at F16 iso 100.  I do shoot MF too (Bronica/Rollei) as well as LF on rare occasions.  I think the uber packs were specifically meant for shooting slow films at high apertures (like 64) so you could get some DoF on your 8x10 view camera.

Ralph Livingston wrote:
Blackline with dial down has soooo many lighting combinations it would be surprising if you needed Y cables. I don't think brown has dial down.

The Blacklines I've seen have a 3 stop dial down at 2400 w/s. The 1600 w/s Brownline has a (edit:)2 stop switch down in full stop increments if I remember correctly. You can choose full, half or quarter power. My 800 w/s packs have full and half power only. In Asymmetrical mode, the Brownlines have similar power distribution to the Blacklines, but with fewer outputs (4 instead of the typical 6 I see on Blacklines), so in theory, the Brownlines would probably benefit more from Y-cables, which is probably why you see them for Brownline packs more so than for Blacklines. I would still think they are useful no matter what Speedotron pack you have, just because it's a fast way to dump a stop.