Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
cliche n : a trite or obvious remark allusion n : passing reference or indirect mention which is more intriguing? does anyone else see a resemblance b/tween these definitions? how is an indirect reference to something that is so prevalent that it is almost cliche DIFFER from a blunt statement of the obvious? any photographic examples of allusion? someone commented on this image's hidden meanings...or perhaps its just another butt on a log? https://modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pic_id=42a7d63099d11
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
[Latin alldere, to play with : ad-, ad- + ldere, to play (from ldus, game. See leid- in Indo-European Roots).]
Usage Note: Allude and allusion are often used where the more general terms refer and reference would be preferable. Allude and allusion normally apply to indirect references in which the source is not specifically identified: âWell, we'll always have Paris,â? he told the travel agent, in an allusion to Casablanca. Refer and reference, unless qualified, usually imply specific mention of a source: I will refer to Hamlet for my conclusion: As Polonius says, âThough this be madness, yet there is method in't.â?
Photographer
XtremeArtists
Posts: 9122
One is borrowed, the other stolen.
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Allusions are almost always superior to cliches, but you have to be prepared to be misunderstood pretty much of the time.
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
Posted by XtremeArtists:
One is borrowed, the other stolen. beautiful (now is that an allusion)?
Photographer
XtremeArtists
Posts: 9122
Posted by DreamPretty�:
Posted by XtremeArtists:
One is borrowed, the other stolen. beautiful (now is that an allusion)? Its beauty is an illusion...
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
Posted by Brian Diaz:
Allusions are almost always superior to cliches, but you have to be prepared to be misunderstood pretty much of the time. cliche is often used in horror flicks--how is it effective in this context?
Basically, it makes you laugh, thinking you know what's going to happen...then, they scare you even more cause you're caught off-guard...kinda like a sucker-punch, to be followed by a real one.
the result is you laugh, at the movie for being so cliche, and at yourself for being momentarily frightened.
"The Grudge" was so cliche!
conversely, the allusion is by definition subtle, refined, and not very funny...
however, it gives you a "funny" feeling, kind of like deja vu. your ability to identify the allusuion brings you closer to the artist and his subject. instead of disgust and laughter, the allusion invokes feelings of familiarity and comfort, yet also mystery.
so I guess both are somewhat paradoxical, when employed successfully
Photographer
XtremeArtists
Posts: 9122
I'd like to explore more allegories actually....
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
The difference between cliche and allusion is like the difference between comedy and wit.
What I really enjoyed was Shaun of the Dead's witty employment of allusion to horror film cliches for the sake of comedy.
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Posted by XtremeArtists:
I'd like to explore more allegories actually.... That's probably easy to do in Florida. I'd have to go to the zoo...
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
allegory
n 1: a short moral story (often with animal characters) [syn: fable, parable, apologue] 2: a visible symbol representing an abstract idea [syn: emblem] 3: an expressive style that uses fictional characters and events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances; an extended metaphor
(had to look it up again)
Photographer
XtremeArtists
Posts: 9122
Posted by Brian Diaz:
Posted by XtremeArtists:
I'd like to explore more allegories actually.... That's probably easy to do in Florida. I'd have to go to the zoo... You're tired. I can tell...
Photographer
XtremeArtists
Posts: 9122
Posted by DreamPretty�:
allegory
n 1: a short moral story (often with animal characters) [syn: fable, parable, apologue] 2: a visible symbol representing an abstract idea [syn: emblem] 3: an expressive style that uses fictional characters and events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances; an extended metaphor
(had to look it up again) I was thinking of number 2, but all three employ cliches....
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
Posted by Brian Diaz:
The difference between cliche and allusion is like the difference between comedy and wit.
What I really enjoyed was Shaun of the Dead's witty employment of allusion to horror film cliches for the sake of comedy. gr8 movie...original, yet funny...
I thought "White Chicks" was gr8 too...not scary, but similar idea
Photographer
Todd S.
Posts: 2951
Chapel Hill, North Carolina, US
"There is nothing new under the sun." This comes from a book written a LONG time ago....
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
Posted by XtremeArtists:
Posted by DreamPretty�:
allegory
n 1: a short moral story (often with animal characters) [syn: fable, parable, apologue] 2: a visible symbol representing an abstract idea [syn: emblem] 3: an expressive style that uses fictional characters and events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances; an extended metaphor
(had to look it up again) I was thinking of number 2, but all three employ cliches.... So, an apple, a simple prop, could be used in a photo...as an allegory, allusion, or a cliche
Photographer
XtremeArtists
Posts: 9122
Posted by DreamPretty�:
Posted by XtremeArtists:
Posted by DreamPretty�:
allegory
n 1: a short moral story (often with animal characters) [syn: fable, parable, apologue] 2: a visible symbol representing an abstract idea [syn: emblem] 3: an expressive style that uses fictional characters and events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances; an extended metaphor
(had to look it up again) I was thinking of number 2, but all three employ cliches.... So, an apple, a simple prop, could be used in a photo...as an allegory, allusion, or a cliche
Or all three!
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Posted by XtremeArtists:
Posted by DreamPretty�:
Posted by XtremeArtists:
Posted by DreamPretty�:
allegory
n 1: a short moral story (often with animal characters) [syn: fable, parable, apologue] 2: a visible symbol representing an abstract idea [syn: emblem] 3: an expressive style that uses fictional characters and events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances; an extended metaphor
(had to look it up again) I was thinking of number 2, but all three employ cliches.... So, an apple, a simple prop, could be used in a photo...as an allegory, allusion, or a cliche
Or all three! Especially an apple.
Photographer
Todd S.
Posts: 2951
Chapel Hill, North Carolina, US
Posted by XtremeArtists:
unless it's a computer... Right. And then you're cool. Or maybe "cool."
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
Posted by XtremeArtists:
Posted by DreamPretty�:
Posted by XtremeArtists:
Posted by DreamPretty�:
allegory
n 1: a short moral story (often with animal characters) [syn: fable, parable, apologue] 2: a visible symbol representing an abstract idea [syn: emblem] 3: an expressive style that uses fictional characters and events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances; an extended metaphor
(had to look it up again) I was thinking of number 2, but all three employ cliches.... So, an apple, a simple prop, could be used in a photo...as an allegory, allusion, or a cliche
Or all three! In one image? Sounds like a challenge!
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Posted by DreamPretty�:
In one image? Sounds like a challenge! Eve makes it all too easy.
Photographer
Todd S.
Posts: 2951
Chapel Hill, North Carolina, US
Posted by DreamPretty�:
Posted by XtremeArtists:
Posted by DreamPretty�:
Posted by XtremeArtists:
Posted by DreamPretty�:
allegory
n 1: a short moral story (often with animal characters) [syn: fable, parable, apologue] 2: a visible symbol representing an abstract idea [syn: emblem] 3: an expressive style that uses fictional characters and events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances; an extended metaphor
(had to look it up again) I was thinking of number 2, but all three employ cliches.... So, an apple, a simple prop, could be used in a photo...as an allegory, allusion, or a cliche
Or all three! In one image? Sounds like a challenge! Not really. I think a pic of "Eve" biting into an apple, snake looking on in the background would nail all three. This is what Herb was getting at before.
EDIT: Brian and I came to this same obvious conclusion simultaneously. He just beat me to the "Reply" button. :-)
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Posted by Todd Steinwart:
EDIT: Brian and I came to this same obvious conclusion simultaneously. He just beat me to the "Reply" button. :-) Hey, less IS more. 
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Really, when Dream first mentioned an apple, I assumed she was alluding to Eve.
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
Posted by Todd Steinwart:
Not really. I think a pic of "Eve" biting into an apple, snake looking on in the background would nail all three. This is what Herb was getting at before.
EDIT: Brian and I came to this same obvious conclusion simultaneously. He just beat me to the "Reply" button. :-) Not so. Such an obvious statement could never be an allusion...unless it was a subtle imitation of another famous and similar image/idea.
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
I alluded...you stated outright. A picture that was obviously Eve could be allegory or cliche, but not allusion.
A girl biting into an apple and wearing a snake bracelet could be an allusion, some might call it cliche if it were just the sensual, open mouth but the bracelet would be a hint of something more. However, it is still not an allegory because it doesn't tell a story. Introduce an eye in the sky or an angry man in the shadows, and you have an allegory, but the allusion is lost again.
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
An allegory doesn't have to tell a story. As per definition 2, the apple usually represents knowledge. (But by now that's kind of cliche...)
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
Posted by Brian Diaz:
An allegory doesn't have to tell a story. As per definition 2, the apple usually represents knowledge. (But by now that's kind of cliche...) allegory
n 1: a short moral story (often with animal characters) [syn: fable, parable, apologue] 2: a visible symbol representing an abstract idea [syn: emblem] 3: an expressive style that uses fictional characters and events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances; an extended metaphor
according to the definition, the apple itself is an allegory because it evokes an abstract idea, i.e. "knowledge" but that doesn't change anything. the point of this thread is to prove that the apple itself is not cliche, but the context defines the apple as such.
A picture of an apple, devoid of context, says nothing. Take a bit out of it and jab a knife into the crevice and then you have an allusion to sex. Put a worm in it, and you have corruption. Put a passed- out, dark-haired girl near it and you have Snow White. Put her in a blue and yellow dress and you have Disney.
Photographer
XtremeArtists
Posts: 9122
Posted by DreamPretty�:
I alluded...you stated outright. A picture that was obviously Eve could be allegory or cliche, but not allusion.
A girl biting into an apple and wearing a snake bracelet could be an allusion, some might call it cliche if it were just the sensual, open mouth but the bracelet would be a hint of something more. However, it is still not an allegory because it doesn't tell a story. Introduce an eye in the sky or an angry man in the shadows, and you have an allegory, but the allusion is lost again. But it is an allusion to the story of Genesis. The one image tells the entire story.
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XtremeArtists
Posts: 9122
Here is a painting that is all three... ![https://www.fotos.org/galeria/data/520/3Salvador-Dali-Hallucinogenic-Toreador.jpg]()
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
Posted by XtremeArtists:
Posted by DreamPretty�:
I alluded...you stated outright. A picture that was obviously Eve could be allegory or cliche, but not allusion.
A girl biting into an apple and wearing a snake bracelet could be an allusion, some might call it cliche if it were just the sensual, open mouth but the bracelet would be a hint of something more. However, it is still not an allegory because it doesn't tell a story. Introduce an eye in the sky or an angry man in the shadows, and you have an allegory, but the allusion is lost again. But it is an allusion to the story of Genesis. The one image tells the entire story. This is where you should use "reference"
Usage Note: Allude and allusion are often used where the more general terms refer and reference would be preferable. Allude and allusion normally apply to indirect references in which the source is not specifically identified: âWell, we'll always have Paris,â? he told the travel agent, in an allusion to Casablanca. Refer and reference, unless qualified, usually imply specific mention of a source: I will refer to Hamlet for my conclusion: As Polonius says, âThough this be madness, yet there is method in't.â?
Photographer
XtremeArtists
Posts: 9122
I think allusion is correct since a girl eating an apple while wearing a snake bracelet is not in Genesis.
Photographer
Michael Gundelach
Posts: 763
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany
OK - this thread is going way above my intelligence... much more my vocabulary...  )
Model
dpretty
Posts: 8108
Ashland, Alabama, US
Posted by XtremeArtists:
Here is a painting that is all three...
What's the symbolism here?
I admit, Dali's melting clocks have become somewhat cliche, yet he remains a very unique artist to this day.
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