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What payment means.
So, I remember an old thread from when I first joined this site about what jobs and their offered payment is worthwhile and what is not. Today I saw a casting call in the NYC section. It was casting for a MUA for a two day wedding on a 'tf' basis. Honestly, how insulting. I wonder if the photographer who posted it is also doing it on a 'tf' basis? I doubt it. I see a lot of unworthy casting calls calling for 'tf' projects but, luckily, I can see through the bs pretty easily. Somehow I doubt everyone can, though. I thought this would make for a good opportunity to discuss what is or is not worthwhile and maybe some experiences we've had. Before I agree to doing something for free (even 'tf') I ask myself these questions: Is anyone agreeing to this project being paid? Is there a client who will be profiting from my 'tf' effort? (lookbooks, etc.) Is anyone paying to come to this event? (fashion shows) Will my portfolio really benefit from this? Is the payment enough to cover time, effort & product? I'd love to hear the other thoughts on this. Jun 01 11 04:31 pm Link Simple. If you do not like the offer then don't take it. Simple as that. Why complain about something you do not want. Let someone who is interested for whatever reason take it. No harm. No foul. Jun 01 11 04:42 pm Link Step Above Photos wrote: Oh, dear. I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to educate others about what is worthwhile work and what is not. Jun 01 11 04:49 pm Link M Ye wrote: Also, make sure to consider what is not worth it to you, may very well be worth it to someone else. Jun 01 11 04:58 pm Link Fortunately for people who want something for nothing, and unfortunately for people attempting to make a living utilizing hard-earned skills, there is almost always someone willing to do something for nothing. Unfortunately, many people simply can not distinguish - even with the results placed side by side - the difference between the work of the skilled practitioner and the novice. And even if the 'client' does end up unhappy with the results gotten from their 'free' wedding photographer, the event is over and it's too late to go back and hire someone for the gig. On one of the meetup groups I am a part of, a 'client' recently contacted the group organizer looking for an 'amateur' photographer to take some business/corporate head shots and do some engagement photography 'without trying to charge me everything you can.' My response to this was that if anyone in the group was interested, they should charge SOME monetary payment, however reasonable, as this person is coming seeking valuable services from someone with the appropriate skills, and should not expect to receive this for free. Oh, what I loved most about it was that if they find someone 'good,' they might 'also have you shoot our wedding.' Awesome. Demonstrate that you're good at what you do, and we might give you the privilege of doing more work for us at the minimum possible we can get by with paying. Personally, I think everyone in the group should quote rates, but the fact is, someone is probably going to shoot this total stranger's head shots, engagement photos, and even wedding, for free or next to nothing. Jun 01 11 05:08 pm Link I think this is a good thread because let's be honest there is so much stuff passed as "tf*" or "testing" that should be paid. Alot of new artists sign up for these things because there are all of these false promises attached to them. I think what it boils down to is how much say so do I have. If I get to have some input and it is a true collaboration then more often than not it's a test. (This doesn't work all of the time. I have been on some shoots where I realized too late that I didn't ask enough questions.) I also use the same guidelines as you do - is there anyone else getting paid, or did you get paid to do this and now you're looking for free work. If someone is promises "great networking contacts, or great exposure" I usually run for the hills. I'm not interested in being taken advantage of - I just want to expand my book. Jun 01 11 06:07 pm Link I think this is a very good thread... I'm sure there is always gonna be someone who does a wedding for instance on tfp... but it's sad if someone does it because they think this is the way it "should" be... I learned really quick to see through this "exposure", "paying gigs in future" type of thing and I don't do it...UNLESS it's something that personally interests me. What makes tfp worth it to me is: how much say I have in the whole thing and will I get the pics I want/need out of it? does the concept interest me? to test with photographers I hope to work with in the future and I have a few favorite models I'm almost always up to working with cos they are more like friends these days  Jun 02 11 03:35 am Link I think this is a very valuable thread. I often took on jobs for 'experience' and 'exposure' and although sometimes I made a great 'connection' much of the time I simply felt like I wasted my time. If I am taking a career in makeup seriously, then I want to make the right decisions about where and how I hand out essentially free work. I will rarely do fashion shows for free, unless they are very big. I would never work a wedding for free unless as a gift to a close friend. I have helped out on student projects and as much as I enjoyed it, I don't intend to do it again. I do a fair bit of tf and testing purely as portfolio building. However, I used to think every opportunity was a great opportunity, even if just for experience/learning/networking/you name it. I don't think that anymore. Because it is simply not true. In saying all of that, I have been working on a tv show that airs on a community tv show and thus has minimal funding. I have met amazing people in the cast and crew. I have had the opportunity of painting faces of some local personalities and have made some amazing friends. Will there budget be big enough to pay me next season? No. But I will sure as hell be back there because, for me, it was worth it. You learn by trial and error what is important and worthwhile for you and what is not. But, it is great to have a thread like this to discuss it and for newer artists to look at and be able to better gauge what may or may not be worth it to them. Jun 02 11 05:50 am Link Step Above Photos wrote: I agree with this. I don't see how this affects you. If it does, you really need to up your skills or marketing or both. Jun 02 11 06:01 am Link Wynnsome said it: "Unfortunately, many people simply can not distinguish - even with the results placed side by side - the difference between the work of the skilled practitioner and the novice. " (I might add: except by price!!!) More often than not, these "free loaders" get exactly what they pay for. On the otherhand, there are a few talented people here that do this type of thing for "the experience". Sort of like tasting a hot pepper for the 1st time. They unwittingly get burned because from that point on, they have severely devalued their work and reputation. One must comprehend their own abilities and limitations, accept or decline and set pricing accordingly. It's also a matter of respect. If you do something for "free" it has no value to the recipient, and will, in the future, be expected. Then by saying NO at a later date, even to a reference, you're an ass. It's a no win situation! Jun 02 11 06:12 am Link M Ye wrote: (numbers added to quotation for clarity) Jun 02 11 06:20 am Link All has pros and cons - if you're not so experienced make-up artist and need to practice - this is great opportunity for you! Nobody will pay you in you don't have skills. You can only gather skills by practice, practice and practice. And network. You would ask - why schools charge so much money if you can learn your skills on your own? You have to spend thousands before you would get any pay! Working with more experienced team on TF base would give you practice and experience you need for your future work as well as references. You don't have to accept TF calls if you feel not comfortable or rewarded Jun 02 11 06:26 am Link Several years back I found myself doing way too much TF, so I made up a couple of tacky little slogans to keep myself on track: "I do TFP, but I don't work for free." "TFP — What's in it for me?" For each and every freebie — whether someone else proposes it or it's my idea — I spell out for myself the costs and benefits, just as I would if I were considering a paid job or working up a bid. In addition, it is very rare for me to take a freebie where someone is making a profit. Even if it's for a charity I'll want to know if others are being paid. Some of the things I will not do free: Unpaid help to a person or business making a profit on the job. Bands (they expect to make money from their talents, why would they not pay others?), charities that are paying others for similar services (nothing like doing the photos for free and finding out they paid a designer to do the programs). Jobs that undercut professional photographers — most of the freebies I do would never happen if they had to be paid. Some of the things I will consider: People who help me with my own projects, including models, MUAs and other photographers. Genuine charities, which includes people I know who really can't afford photos. (I have a very cheap "friends and neighbors" senior portrait deal for those I know could not otherwise afford professional pictures). Things that generate genuine local publicity and good will, such as donating a print or photo session as prize for a local charity raffle. EDIT: If you think about it, by posting on these forums we are creating free content for MM, a for-profit business. Pretty much the same thing the OP was talking about. Just a thought. Jun 02 11 06:53 am Link Payment can indeed mean TF*. I've done and will still do the odd trade shoot, but only if I feel that some good pictures will come out of the creative teamwork. TF is not free - I do get something tangible from it. Now, doing a project for the "exposure" and "promise of paid work in the future" is more difficult to justify. I always ask who will be attending the event (for a fashion show or charity event, etc) and if there will be the opportunity for me to network. If my name will not be on the program or if I will not have the access to other contacts that I would like, I have to turn the project down. After all, how are people to know that I did that work if that information is not made available or if I'm not given opportunity to tell them? It goes on my CV, but I find that actually talking to someone face to face is the surest way to make an impression. It's all about being smart with your time after you get to a certain level. Sure, when you're first starting out, do as much work as you can and with everyone you can, free or not, just for the practice. But when you get to the point where you're well-seasoned, it's time to re-evaluate your worth and move forward with a plan. That plan may require you to say "no" to some offers, and that's okay. That offer can go to someone who is still in the practice stage. Jun 02 11 06:56 am Link If it's a posting here I always look at the port. If I like what I see I'll consider the TF if I feel I will get something out of it. I have worked for some wonderful photographers. I don't do many freebee's these days but I have to say, sometimes I do get paying work from them down the road. I have my group I work with on a regular basis. We call each other from time to time and will shoot just to shoot. If I don't know the photographer, I will try to control some aspect of the shoot. It has to be close to me. If possible the model has to come to me for hair and makeup, and a lot of the time we work out of my house. I live in an area that lends itself to great locations. R- Jun 02 11 06:57 am Link You are so right if all the MUA stick together and stop doing TF than they know our standing. We just need to stick together and in letting everyone know that if you want an MUA it is going to cost. Jun 02 11 07:46 am Link LuLu ColorWkShop wrote: So you say a MUA should NEVER TF*? Jun 02 11 07:58 am Link I should clarify that 'payment', in my opinion, also includes photos. Like someone above said photos are tangible payment. I really just think everyone should be questioning their 'payment' (in whatever form it may be) and wheather it's worthwhile. I hate the thought of people being discouraged because of false promises. Hence, the questions in my first post. Also, those questions apply to all industry peeps not just the HMS folks. Jun 02 11 08:35 am Link FlirtynFun Photography wrote: I'm confused as to where helpful advice is stated in the above post? Jun 02 11 08:41 am Link Step Above Photos wrote: So if I'm reading this correctly, you're agreeing that it's OK for people to post dishonest TF listings? To you that's "No harm. No foul" as long as someone (for whatever reason) is interested in being taken advantage of...right? Jun 02 11 10:17 am Link Only have a second. I always look at the portfolio of the person posting in the forums. It help me know who is worth listening to. Jun 02 11 10:44 am Link this discussion comes up all the time... and it comes up for everyone... there is no shortage of castings looking for photographers to shoot weddings tf... so i kind of seen this debate play out dozens upon doznes of times on the photography forum(s)... but this one here has an interesting wrinkle - "don't shoot trade if someone else on the set is getting paid"... i'm not sure i understand why this is important... Jun 02 11 10:56 am Link PashaPhoto wrote: Definition of "TF": TRADE FOR - meaning you trade your talent for some kind of compensation...in this case, images. No money crosses hands and NO ONE GETS PAID. Jun 02 11 11:07 am Link KJB MUA wrote: I TF* with new models all the time. My agreement with them is TF*, because I have more experience than they do as they are new models. The model and I trade time for images, this has nothing to do with my MUA or my HS. Jun 02 11 11:10 am Link I have a very simple rule, if I get paid EVERYONE involved gets paid. Jun 02 11 11:15 am Link David Cajio Photography wrote: That's unacceptable and misleading. As long as any team member is being paid for their contribution it is no longer a TF. You can call it anything else...just not TF. Jun 02 11 11:17 am Link Jeff Fiore wrote: Thank you. Jun 02 11 11:20 am Link KJB MUA wrote: Completely respect your decision, but we'll agree to disagree. Jun 02 11 11:23 am Link M Ye wrote: Pretty much my same formula. But I always feel like when somebody is soliciting me for TF for "their" project, that it shouldn't cost me to participate in "their" project. And if it does, I usually decline. Jun 02 11 11:25 am Link David Cajio Photography wrote: David, you can't make up the rules to suit your needs. Do what you please, but use the correct terminology. You are doing a variation of paid "testing" with these models...you are not doing TF. Jun 02 11 11:30 am Link David Cajio Photography wrote: KJB MUA wrote: Sorry, I don't understand why this would be unacceptable. For portfolio work, TFP arrangement is between the photographer and any contributor to a shoot. I can shoot a model TFP and pay for a MUA. I can pay a model and TFP with a MUA. It is all negotiable. Jun 02 11 11:42 am Link KJB MUA wrote: Why? if I shoot TFP with a model and can't get a MUA to work TFP with me and have to pay, I shouldn't do the shoot? The model wouldn't care if the MUA is paid and she wasn't, she knows a good MUA will benefit her. Jun 02 11 11:45 am Link KJB MUA wrote: Okay. I can dig that. Can I ask a few questions then? Jun 02 11 12:05 pm Link Jeff Fiore wrote: Jeff, you can do whatever you want ... Jun 02 11 12:09 pm Link He isn't saying it's not allowed but when money exchanges hands the term is no longer trade. Paid testing perhaps. But not tf. The term ttrade refers to the trading of talents all around. The photos and services used are the payment. I would be completely upset if I appeared on set for a trade shoot only to find out the mua or photographer had been paid. When ever the word trade is used, I wouldn't think to ask "is anyone being paid" because it's usually undestood that no one is getting any monetary payment. to keep down confusion call it anything else but trade. Jun 02 11 12:11 pm Link David Cajio Photography wrote: Here's the simple BOLD line - All people working on the actual, physical shoot are Trading their talent For a non-monetary compensation. As soon as anyone is monetarily compensated it is no longer considered a TF. Jun 02 11 12:14 pm Link M Ye wrote: Don't doubt so much, a lot more people than you think are fighting hard with no gain until they get reasonable experience and portfolio value... Jun 02 11 12:20 pm Link KJB MUA wrote: How so? So if a model with zero experience or portfolio will TF with an experienced and skilled photographer, but pays a MUA to be present, what exactly is not TF about it? Jun 02 11 12:25 pm Link KJB MUA wrote: Negotiations for each person on a shoot are different, or else everyone should be paid the same rate too. Jun 02 11 12:25 pm Link KJB MUA wrote: ok, so let's say i have a newbie model that i'm taking a chance on, and she's the one "trading up"... once i hire an mua, it's no longer a trade shoot ? Jun 02 11 12:26 pm Link |
