Heather Elizabeth M wrote:
I expect both, but the photos would be the photographers and not used for anything more than my port. (meaning I would not submit them to magazines or anything.) Unless we agreed beforehand that I would not recieve images.

Not meaning to sound like an ass, why do you expect both?

Abby Hawkins wrote:
Depends on the pay/agreement.  If it is any combination of pay/images, then, yes, I am expecting images.  If the agreement is just pay, I'm not expecting images.  I'd love to see what the final product looks like, but I'm not expecting anything (certainly not a hi-res copy).

Thanks for your honest response. :-)

Heather Elizabeth M wrote:
I expect both, but the photos would be the photographers and not used for anything more than my port. (meaning I would not submit them to magazines or anything.) Unless we agreed beforehand that I would not recieve images.

I gotta disagree with this. It is one or the either. You're either paid with photos or cash, why should you be paid with both?

Heather Elizabeth M wrote:
I expect both

You EXPECT both? How often does that work out?

-Aviva- wrote:
If I am being paid, I do not expect images, and it is totally up to the photographer if he wants to share any with me. Ultimately, it just depends on the agreement between the model and photographer.

Aviva
www.ahlifeandstyle.com

Thank you Aviva. Great port by the way!

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
You EXPECT both? How often does that work out?

Its worked out for me almost every time...I'm not sure why its a problem...the photographer may be making a lot more money from the pics depending on what he/she uses them for and the llama only gets the one-time payment and no pics even to use on her/his portfolio?  I think its pretty fair that the llama get some images as we usually don't get paid a whole lot (at least in my case)  and as I said, the photographers who have paid me have had no problems in giving me finished images as well. If its for an ad, shouldn't the llama at least get a tear sheat? Maybe I've just been fortunate?

Alabama Photo wrote:

Not meaning to sound like an ass, why do you expect both?

Doesn't make you sound like an ass.

Camigirl wrote:
Its worked out for me almost every time...I'm not sure why its a problem...the photographer may be making a lot more money from the pics depending on what he/she uses them for and the model only gets the one-time payment and no pics even to use on her/his portfolio?  I think its pretty fair that the model get some images as we usually don't get paid a whole lot (at least in my case)  and as I said, the photographers who have paid me have had no problems in giving me finished images as well. If its for an ad, shouldn't the model at least get a tear sheat? Maybe I've just been fortunate?

So by that logic anytime a dress sells that I shot for a catalog I should get a commission because Macy's makes a lot more then me?  Photographers and models make money in different ways, the two are not related anymore then any other jobs.  Your pay is not based on what others make or do not make.

P.S. a tear sheet is sheet torn from a magazine or published image, you can always take one from a magazine and include it in your book.  You would not want the "before" image anyhow, you want the one that actually ran.

CNP Photography wrote:

I gotta disagree with this. It is one or the either. You're either paid with photos or cash, why should you be paid with both?

Why does it have to be one or the other? If Photographer A and Model Z agree that compensation will include both cash and images, why should anyone care?

AJScalzitti wrote:
So by that logic anytime a dress sells that I shot for a catalog I should get a commission because Macy's makes a lot more then me?  Photographers and models make money in different ways, the two are not related anymore then any other jobs.  Your pay is not based on what others make or do not make.

P.S. a tear sheet is sheet torn from a magazine or published image, you can always take one from a magazine and include it in your book.  You would not want the "before" image anyhow, you want the one that actually ran.

I never said anything about a commission...I said she gets paid a one-time fee from the photographer and that's cool, but it would be nice to be able to use that image on her portfolio is all I'm saying. I know the photographers and models make money in different ways and never said that pay was based on what others make. and p.s. I know what a tear sheet is.

Heather Elizabeth M wrote:
I expect both, but the photos would be the photographers and not used for anything more than my port. (meaning I would not submit them to magazines or anything.) Unless we agreed beforehand that I would not recieve images.

CNP Photography wrote:
I gotta disagree with this. It is one or the either. You're either paid with photos or cash, why should you be paid with both?

If she's upfront about that expectation, and the photographer / client agrees, then really, both IS the agreed upon compensation.

G Images wrote:

Why does it have to be one or the other? If Photographer A and Model Z agree that compensation will include both cash and images, why should anyone care?

I think the point of this post is actually "lets talk about entitlement and models who feel entitled to photos after I already paid them". As you can see by the first response to the first model who says she expects photos....nobody was really looking for both sides of the argument. In the end, the only reason there is a "question" at all is because of poor communication ahead of shoots. If a model expects photos and is told before the shoot that the photographer will not be delivering photos than the model can take the job or leave it. If it happens they are not getting much work because they are asking for both $ and Photos than they may learn to just take $ or decide to lower their rates and ask for photos as compensation as well, etc.

G Images wrote:
Why does it have to be one or the other? If Photographer A and Model Z agree that compensation will include both cash and images, why should anyone care?

I agree with that. Whatever the model and photographer agree to is between them and no one's business.

My take on it is if a model doesn't think my work is good enough to shoot TFP, why would she want it in her portfolio?

Jeff Fiore wrote:
I agree with that. Whatever the model and photographer agree to is between them and no one's business.

My take on it is if a model doesn't think my work is good enough to shoot TFP, why would she want it in her portfolio?

The quality of your work has nothing to do with whether I charge or not, unless you're a big name or have a very specific style I need. This is my job. I can be a bit more flexible when I am home, but when I travel I have to charge to make the trip worth it. So as much as I may like your photos and hope that you'll send me images from our shoot, I'm always going to choose to eat that night over getting images.

Kelli wrote:
Every paid shoot I've had I've been given photos, the photographer volunteered them. I rarely do " tfp's " because I usually don't end up with anything at all except for a huge waste of time. More times then not the " tfp " photographers don't come thru with their end of the deal and never get around to sending me anything, but the paying photographers always do. Ironic!

That's because we are aloud to edit at our convenience and we are not obligated so, when we get home, we load the shots into our editing software and just start editing what WE want....

after we are done editing what we already wanted, it takes no extra effort to send you the results of what we thought were the 'best shots'... (that is IF there is no client and needs the photos for himself for what ever reason).

When I do TFP, I feel more obligated to let the model in on the 'choosing process'. (not all photographers are like this, but I am)
So after I get a rough draft edit/proof set up and maybe a rough crop to what I want in all the images I'm willing to release, I upload them for review by the model and let them choose 3-5 photos per hour worked...

Most of my models like the way I do it as they get exactly what they want.

Greeneyed Goddess wrote:
I ALWAYS expect photos. I dont think I would ever agree to work with no photos in return. I give my all heart to each photo shoot. Why would I walk away without at least some  pieces of my heart being returned to me in those photos?

That is what TFP is for.. if you want photos, then you should do TF.

That is usually why I pay.. so that there is no obligation to pay in photos..

It's normally one or the other...

If a model has a hard time getting gigs they might want to take a look at their policies.

Greeneyed Goddess wrote:
I ALWAYS expect photos. I dont think I would ever agree to work with no photos in return. I give my all heart to each photo shoot. Why would I walk away without at least some  pieces of my heart being returned to me in those photos?

I think I understand how you feel because I think I might feel the same way in your position, but perhaps I can give you an example that might clarify some of the issues.

If you look at my portfolio, you will find an album of underwater images. These are not at all easy to make and, when I put out a casting call, I was stampeded with applicants.

Here is what is involved with an underwater shoot.

Over the preceding days, repeated vacuuming of the pool is required. Several hours input.

The night before - about an hour getting equipment and props ready.

On the morning - about an hour and a half explaining to the llama how best to work underwater, discussing poses, and choosing props.

In the water - 30 mins if the water is cool up to about 2 hours in mid-summer, by which time the llama is cold and tired.

Frames shot - static poses are not possible, so thank heavens for motor drives. Most shoots involve several thousand frames and it takes about 10 to 15 hours (spread over several nights) just to grade them.

Once graded, I post a proof set of the best ones and invite the llama to nominate her 12 to 20 favourites.

Then the challenge begins.  The water causes all sorts of shifts in colour and tones and the lighting is different for each shoot (different angle of the sun, different cloud cover, different depth of water, etc), so there is substantial editing required to drag a pleasing image out of the dull green-blue original.  This takes a lot of time, so much so that, even when I am on holidays and able to work on the shoots full time, I have my hands full with just two shoots in the one week.

In short, the llama puts in an hour or two in the pool plus an hour or so of pre-shoot preparation plus an hour or two of travelling time.  On the other hand, not only do I match that investment in time several times over, but I also give the llama the benefit of my accumulated experience in an area where she is unlikely to have any of her own.

As it happens, I have given some TF llamas cash as well as images because I know they need to eat.  However, that is not quite the same as an automatic entitlement to both which would imply that the photographer's skill and time is really not worth very much.

If a llama feels she should have images, I think the fair thing to do is for her to put a fair price on the images and deduct that from the cash that she would otherwise expect, always assuming of course that the photographer agrees with the valuation.

Greeneyed Goddess wrote:
I ALWAYS expect photos. I dont think I would ever agree to work with no photos in return. I give my all heart to each photo shoot. Why would I walk away without at least some  pieces of my heart being returned to me in those photos?

Would you negotiate a lower rate in return for photos?

Stanley L Moore wrote:
My models always expect pictures. I always pay for their time. It seems petty To deny them a few pictures.

It's not a matter of being petty, each photographer conducts business differently. There is no right or wrong.

Eleanor R wrote:

The quality of your work has nothing to do with whether I charge or not, unless you're a big name or have a very specific style I need. This is my job. I can be a bit more flexible when I am home, but when I travel I have to charge to make the trip worth it. So as much as I may like your photos and hope that you'll send me images from our shoot, I'm always going to choose to eat that night over getting images.

I know what you mean and I agree, I'm talking about local models, not traveling models. Photography is my job too, this is all I do and yes, I do like to eat occasionally too

Greeneyed Goddess wrote:
I ALWAYS expect photos. I dont think I would ever agree to work with no photos in return. I give my all heart to each photo shoot. Why would I walk away without at least some  pieces of my heart being returned to me in those photos?

You're certainly welcome to do trade shoots, hire photographers, or negotiate deals that get you images.  But, if you're paid, don't assume that you'll get images, because at some point, you're going to be dissappointed.

Art of the nude wrote:

You're certainly welcome to do trade shoots, hire photographers, or negotiate deals that get you images.  But, if you're paid, don't assume that you'll get images, because at some point, you're going to be dissappointed.

As Elanor R answered my post above - when a model does this as a full time living instead of a hobby, the $$$ is more important than getting images.

Extreme Body Art wrote:

That's because we are aloud to edit at our convenience and we are not obligated so, when we get home, we load the shots into our editing software and just start editing what WE want....

after we are done editing what we already wanted, it takes no extra effort to send you the results of what we thought were the 'best shots'... (that is IF there is no client and needs the photos for himself for what ever reason).

When I do TFP, I feel more obligated to let the model in on the 'choosing process'. (not all photographers are like this, but I am)
So after I get a rough draft edit/proof set up and maybe a rough crop to what I want in all the images I'm willing to release, I upload them for review by the model and let them choose 3-5 photos per hour worked...

Most of my models like the way I do it as they get exactly what they want.

No, I've had plenty of paying photographers ask me which pics were my fav. For the most part they've been very nice, a lot nicer and a lot more productive then the tfp photographers.

KelliOnLineGlamourNude  wrote:
No, I've had plenty of paying photographers ask me which pics were my fav. For the most part they've been very nice, a lot nicer and a lot more productive then the tfp photographers.

This is interesting, because in some vague way it parallels my experience of having better luck getting models who usually get paid to follow through on trade shoots, compared to models who are, I guess you could say, hobbyists.