C H Young wrote:
Do models deserve the photos (edited or raw) after you paid them for their time? Sure, it is a nice gesture by the photog, but if the model wanted to shoot trade, shouldn't she just have done a TF shoot instead of getting paid?

If their usage doesn't compete with my usage, I don't have a problem with it.

I grant models (that I pay) the right to right-click & save & use any picture I post on my web site, but their usage is restricted to non-commercial use in their on-line portfolios (i.e. a person doesn't have to pay to view the images), and I let them know that I would appreciate appropriate accreditation. 
...  It doesn't cost me any extra effort.
...  It provides the model with incentive.
...  It doesn't impact my usages at all.
...  It provides me with a little extra visibility.
...  Models appreciate it.

So, why shouldn't I?

Looknsee Photography wrote:
If their usage doesn't compete with my usage, I don't have a problem with it.

How could it compete?

C H Young wrote:
Do models deserve the photos (edited or raw) after you paid them for their time? Sure, it is a nice gesture by the photog, but if the model wanted to shoot trade, shouldn't she just have done a TF shoot instead of getting paid?

Never a file.

Occasionally I'll print a single image of something she liked and give it to her next time we work. But, if I or my client pays then the images stay with me.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
If their usage doesn't compete with my usage, I don't have a problem with it.

C H Young wrote:
How could it compete?

Dunno.

I request donations from my web site, and I get enough cover my expenses (including modeling fees, business license, web host costs, etc.).  If somehow a model's usage diminished those donations, I wouldn't like it.

Further, if the model has a pay site, where people are paying to see my pictures of her, I wouldn't like that, either, especially if I wasn't participating in the revenues in a significant way.

Finally, I would definitely not want my photos to be used in any kind of advertising.

Hence, I'm clear about the restrictions on the model's usages of my images.

DougBPhoto wrote:
here's a thread from 2 days ago that might help..

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=868345

Bottom line

A) Whatever you negotiate is what you abide by (or deliver more)

B) Unless you have uses for the images where you don't want them posted online, providing them to the model often lets your images reach a larger audience and providing more awareness of your work.

C) Often paid shoots may require keeping the images for an exclusive use or putting them online would devalue them, in which case, providing copies would not make sense.

Even on a paid shoot, it would probably be wise to let the model know before hand if you will give them selected images or not, rather than assume that because it is paid, that is all they get.

Ultimately, communicate and clarify, before you shoot.

Thank you for the link, sir

C H Young wrote:
Do models deserve the photos (edited or raw) after you paid them for their time? Sure, it is a nice gesture by the photog, but if the model wanted to shoot trade, shouldn't she just have done a TF shoot instead of getting paid?

What difference does it make? If the model is happy with the compensation, there's nothing to worry about.

Why did you pay the model for the shoot? Was it because you were hired by a third party, or did you want photos for your portfolio?

Isn't the purpose of your portfolio to show your work and attract people who want you to shoot them? If that's the case, wouldn't it be in your best interest to have your work in her portfolio too?

She doesn't need your photos. Her port got you to pay her, so it's effective at getting her paid work. That's why she didn't do a trade shoot with you. She didn't need to. That's unrelated to whether or not it's in your best interest to have your photos in her port.

JT Life Photography wrote:
Never a file.

what do you gain by denying model access to file?

were you not able to find value in the shoot you did? if so, why did you shoot in the first place?

C H Young wrote:
Do models deserve the photos (edited or raw) after you paid them for their time? Sure, it is a nice gesture by the photog, but if the model wanted to shoot trade, shouldn't she just have done a TF shoot instead of getting paid?

If there was ever a time when the model was being paid in cash and it WASN'T for publication, lookbook etc... then I most likely would have them choose between cash or images.

For editorials if I don't like you I send you the pdf's of the published editorial spread. If I like you a little you get the pdf's and the images that were retouched for publication and weren't published (print sized). Everybody else, which is 99% of the people i work with, I send the pdf, the retouched images that were and were not run (web and print size), and all of the selects (web sized)

Dan Howell Tearsheets wrote:

what do you gain by denying model access to file?

were you not able to find value in the shoot you did? if so, why did you shoot in the first place?

I find a lot of value in what I do, and should the model also find value they should be happy with the images in lieu of monetary payment.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

If their usage doesn't compete with my usage, I don't have a problem with it.

I grant models (that I pay) the right to right-click & save & use any picture I post on my web site, but their usage is restricted to non-commercial use in their on-line portfolios (i.e. a person doesn't have to pay to view the images), and I let them know that I would appreciate appropriate accreditation. 
...  It doesn't cost me any extra effort.
...  It provides the model with incentive.
...  It doesn't impact my usages at all.
...  It provides me with a little extra visibility.
...  Models appreciate it.

So, why shouldn't I?

Bravo. I never understand the mentality of holding back photos from a model just because you can. I always take the view that it's good networking, it gets my work out to a wider audience.

Wolfy4u wrote:
Paid models don't deserve photos ...

What a petty kind of remark. Why don't they deserve photos? You paid persumably because they had some quality you couldn't get from just a trade shoot. Sure you might want to negotiate images as part of the payment (if they want to) but to say the don't deserve them sounds like a very odd attitude.

Michael Lohr  wrote:
For the people that feel if they pay a model then they should not give them anything, my suggestion would be to find another line of work, (or Hobby).

This is a people buisness. Surround your self with good people and talent and take care of them. This is positive in many ways. Word gets out that you are a good person and you will only grow. Over the years many of my shoots are directly related to previous work I did. Word of mouth is more important then any promotion you do. Also this is a much smaller community then you can ever imagine.

I send out a couple selects from a shoot. Even on a commercial shoot I will give them a couple pics for their book after everything has been published.

Good Will goes a long way in this buisness, and in Life.

Great response!  You never know where Good Will will wind up taking you!

Wolfy4u wrote:
Paid llamas don't deserve photos, but I usually share some with them because I enjoy hearing their comments and sometimes I learn something from them.

Gosh, what kind of people do you pay that don't deserve a copy of their own work?

Echoing what someone else already said, why not just be nice and give them a copy.

There is so much horrible stuff going on in the world, and those photos are probably not going to end up in any time capsule 10 years from now... no one will even know those photos existed or care... I don't mean to sound mean but everyone thinks their photo is the next Mona Lisa, it's not.

I say that because chances are, nothing bad will happen if you give someone a copy of those photos. Chances are, a lot of GOOD things will happen if you do, people you worked with will like you.

"People liking you" is harder to come by, and it's worth more spreading that around.

Michael Lohr  wrote:
For the people that feel if they pay a model then they should not give them anything, my suggestion would be to find another line of work, (or Hobby).

well we would give them MONEY

ChiMo wrote:
She doesn't like your photos that's why she wants your money instead.

Eh, sometimes..

Oftentimes, especially once a model has developed a decent portfolio, it's not always about like, but sometimes about need.


There's lots of fine art nude photographers who's work I *like*, but it looks just like what I've already shot, so what do I gain by doing yet another shoot for the same work? Not enough to justify, usually. So while I think their work is pretty, it doesn't HELP me, I give them my rates.

IF they send me pictures, I'll probably put them in my tumblr, deviantart, facebook, FetLife, basically anywhere it's normal to post a billion "filler" photos besides my actual portfolio.

C H Young wrote:
Do models deserve the photos (edited or raw) after you paid them for their time? Sure, it is a nice gesture by the photog, but if the model wanted to shoot trade, shouldn't she just have done a TF shoot instead of getting paid?

Is it "deserved"? Not unless that was part of the arrangement (say in exchange of a lowered rates + pictures received).

Is it a nice gesture in the hopes they're good enough where they'll actually use them in their own port? An argument could be made for it.

Is it required? Nyet!

Michael Lohr  wrote:
For the people that feel if they pay a model then they should not give them anything, my suggestion would be to find another line of work, (or Hobby).

This is a people buisness. Surround your self with good people and talent and take care of them. This is positive in many ways. Word gets out that you are a good person and you will only grow. Over the years many of my shoots are directly related to previous work I did. Word of mouth is more important then any promotion you do. Also this is a much smaller community then you can ever imagine.

I send out a couple selects from a shoot. Even on a commercial shoot I will give them a couple pics for their book after everything has been published.

Good Will goes a long way in this buisness, and in Life.

From a model's perspective, I would never demand images from a paid shoot. However, if the images are worth using in a portfolio, I don't understand the issue with reaching a broader audience by appearing in multiple portfolios. Also, if I receive a few great images from a paid shoot with someone who was easy to work with, they will be at the top of my list for crazy, spontaneous tf shooting. It is just more professional, in my opinion. I see it like tipping a waiter or bartender. It is not usually a requirement, but it is common courtesy. Even most commercial jobs will give you a tear sheet.

Ultimately, it boils down to making a solid agreement before shooting. If you give more, people will appreciate it and want to work with you again.

C H Young wrote:
Do models deserve the photos (edited or raw) after you paid them for their time? Sure, it is a nice gesture by the photog, but if the model wanted to shoot trade, shouldn't she just have done a TF shoot instead of getting paid?

That's something a professional, or at least someone conducting a shoot professionally should establish prior to the shoot.

Most models would prefer to have images from a shoot regardless of being paid...why is this even being asked?