AJL Photo wrote:
I realize you are new to modeling, and I want you to have a positive experience on this site. Here are some red flags to look for:

-He's been on MM since 2007, has 6 friends.

I agree with you with all other points that you made.  But number of internet friends is just absurd.  Are you serious??

AJL Photo wrote:
-He has 4 pictures in his port. None of them have comments.

There's a photographer on here that has 300+ comments on one of his photos.... all from himself

comments are not an indicator of anything.

Gianna Virginia wrote:
Recently a photog contacted me about a paid shoot. When I asked for references he bailed out of the shoot. When I checked his profile the main red flag to me was that he had no tags from any models thanking him for the shoot. He also had no credits for any of the models he used. He had plenty of friends though, it's easy to collect friends.

Another time I asked a photog for references and he got pissed off. He told me to go to his website and read the testimonials. Testimonials are BS, his mother could have wrote those. So I bailed on that one. I vowed never to work with a photog who doesn't offer references. Esp the ones that get pissy about it.

Personally, I find the whole "tags from any models thanking him for the shoot" type of thing self-serving and it makes me uncomfortable to have them up there, but the reality is that it is something that models do look for.

I agree, testimonials don't mean anything without checking with the person who supposedly wrote them.

Along with other forms of vetting someone, checking references seems like one of the most important steps a model can take to make sure that it is a good choice to work with someone or not.

AJL Photo wrote:
-He's been on MM since 2007, has 6 friends.
-There are no tags from past clients.
-He has 4 pictures in his port. None of them have comments.
-His style shows no art, or even a signature style. Not even "intentional amateur".
-One of his shots is very grainy, looks like another photographer took it.
-His profile contains words like "open minded, erotic, fetish, etc"

One of these traits is not a bad thing. Put together, it's a mess of red flags.

So there's a mess or red flags.  Pay attention to them.  None of these red flags have anything to do with references.

Do you think this photographer if asked to provide a reference would provide the name of other models he's treated this way?

Most people can find, bribe, or invent someone to say something nice about them.  Better to rely on the red flags in my opinion.

AJL Photo wrote:
While I don't use MM to "collect" friends, I would think that 6 contacts in 6 years is not usual, especially for MM. I add models as friends so I can keep track of their work, and keep up with their careers. I also add other photographers for the same reason.

I have three friends, but they're real people I know and like, people I may want to work with go into my favorites.

Gianna Virginia wrote:
Recently a photog contacted me about a paid shoot. When I asked for references he bailed out of the shoot. When I checked his profile the main red flag to me was that he had no tags from any models thanking him for the shoot. He also had no credits for any of the models he used. He had plenty of friends though, it's easy to collect friends.

Another time I asked a photog for references and he got pissed off. He told me to go to his website and read the testimonials. Testimonials are BS, his mother could have wrote those. So I bailed on that one. I vowed never to work with a photog who doesn't offer references. Esp the ones that get pissy about it.

When I joined MM I had zero references and few images to post yet models trusted me enough to shoot.   There are many ways too vet someone.   A newer photographer might have no references and few if any from MM.   A way around all that is to perhaps meet in a public place first with a friend who can take a casual shot of him.   Its pretty easy to verify phone numbers.   Where do they work?   One of my friends who started shooting has police officer friends.   Another worked for Chase in their IT area.   Are they on Facebook or Linken.  I'm one of those folks who also doesn't provide references.   Any reference provided by me or anyone else is still someone you don't know.   

So you're asking a stranger about working with another stranger.   Before anyone says it and I have one member who likes to criticize me for that position.   Do your own homework is my point.   Testimonials could be bull but so could those references.   A well known NY test shooter is alleged to have made lots of fake OMP profiles up.    A male photographer on this site made a fake profile for a female model and 'she' was made a gatekeeper.   It strikes me that many who pay won't always have many or any glowing references from loving past models.   So smart models may have to use due diligence.   I'm just happy that those who worked with me trusted me to do so with no drama.   I vow to never work with any model who tries to bring me any.

AJL Photo wrote:
I don't usually post in the forums, but I received this email from a MM model I'd worked with. He moved to a new town and did a shoot..

Curious, did the model give you permission to post his email into the forums?

Gianna Virginia wrote:
Recently a photog contacted me about a paid shoot. When I asked for references he bailed out of the shoot. When I checked his profile the main red flag to me was that he had no tags from any models thanking him for the shoot. He also had no credits for any of the models he used. He had plenty of friends though, it's easy to collect friends.

Another time I asked a photog for references and he got pissed off. He told me to go to his website and read the testimonials. Testimonials are BS, his mother could have wrote those. So I bailed on that one. I vowed never to work with a photog who doesn't offer references. Esp the ones that get pissy about it.

-Or he can write his one testimonials.

-There are established working pros don't offer reference, no need to. All you have to do is to hit 'Google'. But if you do insist on asking for reference, I can see how that would turn the situation sour.

Chuckarelei wrote:

Gianna Virginia wrote:
If the photog gets sour, that's his own issue. I would have to assume he gets sour pretty easily. Not the kind of person one would enjoy working with.


-There are established working pros don't offer reference, no need to. All you have to do is to hit 'Google'. But if you do insist on asking for reference, I can see how that would turn the situation sour.

Gianna Virginia wrote:
So asking for references is out. And escorts of course....that's out. What's left then for a model to exercise caution? To me it's highly suspect when a photog protests too much about a model just trying to do a basic reference check. Why bring undo drama into a benign situation? Unless one has something to hide. When someone feels the need to argue this simple method of establishing safety....that's a red flag.

Gianna, there is nothing wrong with asking for references but relying solely or primarily on references given to you by a photographer might not be wise.   Many of the photographers who offer payment won't have many or any.   How would you vet a new photographer?   If I were a model I might ask too meet a few days before a session for coffee.   A model last year invited me to lunch.   Explain your concerns and ask is it okay to see their license.   Where do they work?   If they are on sites like Facebook.   How long have they been there.   As I said earlier in most cases you won't know his/her past models anyway.

Other options might include taking a friend to the shoot and having that friend return later.   However every thing we do comes with some risks.   Statically speaking women are most often assaulted or abused by ex and current lovers.   That's  little comfort to models looking to shoot though.   There have been photographers with good reputations who have abused models.   Sadly that occurs in every profession.   In fact recently several police officers have been accused of rape.   http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … crime.html
Police officers go though background checks/ personal reference checks.   Doctors have been convicted of attacking women along with other professionals.   

Still, you should do what makes YOU feel most comfortable.   Your comfort and feeling of safety are the most important thing.

ForeverFotos wrote:
There's a photographer on here that has 300+ comments on one of his photos.... all from himself

comments are not an indicator of anything.

Is it a joke?

Gianna Virginia wrote:
So asking for references is out. And escorts of course....that's out. What's left then for a model to exercise caution? To me it's highly suspect when a photog protests too much about a model just trying to do a basic reference check. Why bring undo drama into a benign situation? Unless one has something to hide. When someone feels the need to argue this simple method of establishing safety....that's a red flag.

I agree, there's no need to protest or get offended by reference checks.

I actually feel kind of weird when a model that doesn't know me, asks if I can provide transportation to/from a shoot. Inside I'm thinking, shouldn't you want to take a snap of my license plate or text someone my photo?

Then again, they do have my studio address beforehand, and in my experience, most models are under the false assumption that it's safer to shoot in a studio than at a photographers home.

Gianna Virginia wrote:
So asking for references is out. And escorts of course....that's out. What's left then for a model to exercise caution?

She mentioned many red flags she should have paid attention to.  So if there are many red flags, and your gut instincts tell you something is bad, why instead of paying attention to that, would you base your decision on the word of a stranger you don't know, especially when you obtained that name from the very person you are trying to evaluate?

Anyone who knows anything about statistics, should know that there is absolutely no reason to believe that a name or two provided by a photographer should in anyway be representative of all experiences or opinions.  It's a biased sample, not a random sampling.

You have an opinion about people who don't rely on references.  What amazes me is how many people put such faith in the word of a stranger, (a biased sample),  ignoring everything else, and then wonder why their experience didn't match that of the stranger they talked to.

There's been many posts here in which models focus on the fact they checked a reference, and are amazed that their experience was different.   "but I checked a reference".

ForeverFotos wrote:
There's a photographer on here that has 300+ comments on one of his photos.... all from himself

comments are not an indicator of anything.

Click Hamilton wrote:
Is it a joke?

nope

Gianna Virginia wrote:
Recently a photog contacted me about a paid shoot. When I asked for references he bailed out of the shoot. When I checked his profile the main red flag to me was that he had no tags from any models thanking him for the shoot. He also had no credits for any of the models he used. He had plenty of friends though, it's easy to collect friends.

Another time I asked a photog for references and he got pissed off. He told me to go to his website and read the testimonials. Testimonials are BS, his mother could have wrote those. So I bailed on that one. I vowed never to work with a photog who doesn't offer references. Esp the ones that get pissy about it.

I don't get many tags about how well a shoot went.
But I'm pretty sure they had a nice time and we all got some really nice images.

Siddy Pain wrote:
If a photographer has no MM models or references on his profile and contacts you for a shoot how do you go about asking for references, just straight shoot it? I don't want to cause any offense by wording it the wrong way.

Just because someone does not offer references, does not mean you can't ask, if that's important to you.

The initial model in this scenario however, mentioned several  "red flags" that did not require asking anyone for anything.

A wonderful thing about MM is we have the ability to look at someone's work, to look at their profile and make our own decisions without having to rely on the opinion of other people.   If you look at a photographer's portfolio and it's filled with GWC, grainy, poor quality spread shots of girls, odds are that no matter what he claims, he's not magically going to switch to doing high quality art nudes with you.

Gianna Virginia wrote:
When I checked his profile the main red flag to me was that he had no tags from any models thanking him for the shoot.

really? why would they feel a need to add tags if we are already communicating fully via messaging and text?

T-D-L wrote:
References are over-rated.  Hypothetically speaking, if I were the type of photographer to not give photos, make lewd comments, inappropriately touch, chop models up with an axe, run over their puppy, etc etc.....do you really think those are the models I'd send you for a reference check? 

Creepers and assholes are going to cherry-pick references and only give you names of people who will give them glowing reviews.  Unless their complete idiots, and they give you the name of the model they asked the "jerk off for money"....but how common is that?

You're better off developing a "bullshit meter" and trusting your instincts.  I'd wager that most assholes, weirdos, and pervs are slightly "off" in the way they present themselves (either in person or online) as well as especially their communication skills.

What he said--

Why would a photographer give you a reference that would not turn in his favor? Doesn't make sense

Skyler Bleu wrote:
What he said--

Why would a photographer give you a reference that would not turn in his favor? Doesn't make sense

Honestly, it happens.

One person's perspective is not always the same as someone else's.

They may not be perfect to rely on someone the person volunteers, but they can sometimes still be honest and helpful (assuming they are not fake.)

Skyler Bleu wrote:
What he said--

Why would a photographer give you a reference that would not turn in his favor? Doesn't make sense

Not infrequently, a model will get a reference and then not check on it because, surely, a photographer wouldn't provide a reference that isn't good.

T-D-L wrote:
You're better off developing a "bullshit meter" and trusting your instincts.  I'd wager that most assholes, weirdos, and pervs are slightly "off" in the way they present themselves (either in person or online) as well as especially their communication skills.