SMS-Photography wrote:
I see this all the time in models profile. “I’ve always dreamed of being a model and I’ll do what ever it takes to be successful”.  So why dose it seem the only thing they won’t do is have their picture taken? Now I’m not taking about porn or even implied nude, I’m talking just “regular” photo shoots.

If models see "value" in YOUR style of photography... they will shoot with you!

If your photography sucks (not a judgment, didn't look at your port... speaking generally) models  won't waste their time, even if it's "free"... costs always occur and if you offer free shots, but the model invests her time and costs for prep and travel time and doesn't see a value that exceeds her expenses... she won't shoot with you!

Again... I didn't look at your port..., this is a sorta drunk post... and I am talking from a principal POV.

Francisco Castro wrote:
4) Your own port, well, leaves a lot to be desired. (He's asking why he's not getting work, so I'm considering it as asking for critique. Not against MM rules.). You have a bunch of images from the same shoot, looks like you only have shot with 3 guys. The images are not bad, not good... mediocre. Nothing memorable about them; you remember the really bad ones, and you remember the really good ones.

IMHO

+1. You've been here for a year and a half and your portfolio is essentially two male models. There's nothing there that would make any female models excited at the prospect of shooting with you.

Call Me Caitlin wrote:
They aren't models.

They just want to tell people they are a model.

THANK YOU

MelissaAnn  wrote:
Why are you assuming they're not responding to you because they don't want their picture taken?  There are tons of other reasons that could be causing models not to respond.  Here are just a few:

1.) The models you're messaging aren't interested in having *you* take their picture (they don't like your work).

2.)  Something about the way you're wording your message is putting the models off or setting off red flags.  Can you post an example of a typical message you send to models when trying to arrange TF shoots?

3.) Some models are just flakes.  It's not that they don't want their picture taken, or any other specific reason, they're just not serious about modeling.

4.) You're not offering pay.


Are you checking on when the models you're messaging have last logged in, or sorting results to only display models who have been active within the last 2 weeks?  A lot of times photographers forget to do this, and end up messaging models who haven't been active in months, or even years.

Edit:  Also, try posting in critique and ask for opinions on your profile and portfolio.  Specifically ask models if they would TF with you, and if they wouldn't, to explain the reasons why.

It could be his hair too. Really? A list?

safe as houses wrote:
It could be his hair too. Really? A list?

Yeah, really.  See list.  And thanks for your contribution to the thread.

Art of CIP wrote:

58% of internet statistics are false...
And what is "virtually" worthless?  Is that like "not really" worthless?  Get it?  "Virtual" /"not real"? 

Did you just laugh at your own joke? That was a joke... wasn't it?

safe as houses wrote:
Did you just laugh at your own joke? That was a joke... wasn't it?

You better stop that, or your account may be closed for "sockpuppet" reasons. 

You may even want to try making a useful suggestion that's on topic to the OP.  Just a thought.

That Italian Guy wrote:
Maybe they're simply not interested in shooting with you?






Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

That would be my guess.

SMS-Photography wrote:
Sorry I messed up the "quote feature" on here.

I'm seeing several "they don't want to work with you".

I would understand that and not question that but...they're not working with anyone!? No new photos at all.

And yes I thought about the critique form but it seems to me more a problem of models just not being active...or proactive.

And yes male and female

This is a FREE website to join. There is absolutely no forcing of those to sign up or to use this site.  I'm sorry if you are having a difficult time getting shoots yourself, but don't focus so much on what others are doing.  Instead, keep working on yourself.  Pay some models if you have to.  Invest more time on searching for models that are active here, or on other places.  Those that you notice are having little or no change are not worth wasting your time with even being concerned with why they don't do anything. 

I will not critique your work here ... some people are risking being brigged by doing so, as it is against the rules in this section.  I will suggest that posting in the "Critique" section of the forum might also give you more insight on what to do to improve your own portfolio and increase your chances of getting some really great TFP shoots happening.

SMS-Photography wrote:
I see this all the time in models profile. “I’ve always dreamed of being a model and I’ll do what ever it takes to be successful”.  So why dose it seem the only thing they won’t do is have their picture taken? Now I’m not taking about porn or even implied nude, I’m talking just “regular” photo shoots.  I've been trying everything to get some TF shoots. It’s in my profile I’ll do “almost” any type of  shoot for TF. I've made casting calls. And sent e-mails to models asking if they would be interested in a shoot. All with virtually no response.

Now I would understand if these model were receiving tons of other offers from more experienced photographers, but they’re not having them take their photos either. I often browse the listing in the area and I see models  “checking-in”  regularly to MM but they have the same portfolio pictures up for 1, 2 and 3 years, sometimes longer, never anything new. And a lot of their photos are either HS senior photos, something obviously take by a friend with a point and shoot and even selfies taken with a cell phone.  This goes for male and female models.

So my question is this.

To photographers--- Is this common?  And because I live in a “dead zone” I just have far less to choose from?

To models:
Are you expecting only a paid photo shoot with Glamour magazine with nothing then 3 or 4 year old photos in your port? Is there something about my profile that screams GWC? Or are the few photos in my port so bad it’s not worth your time getting some practice in front of the camera?

Just asking???

Same as...  Hello, I own an upscale restaurant in the heart of the city.  I'd love to have you come by some evening for dinner.

Are you really expecting a free dinner?

They're willing to shoot.  Either they're not willing to shoot with you because they see no value in it or you're offer simply isn't good enough.

Mortonovich wrote:
95% of the "models"  on MM are virtually worthless and are only here to be able to say they are a "model"  with absolutely no intention of doing anything once they realize it actually takes work, skill and a look.

The other 5% can be fantastic but finding them can be tricky.

Wow,  nice statement. 95 per cent of the models are 'virtually worthless.' 
A pretty inclusive blanket condemnation.

Mike - MJG Photo  wrote:
Wow,  nice statement. 95 per cent of the models are 'virtually worthless.' 
A pretty inclusive blanket condemnation.

And one which drives many models away.

While there are undoubtedly a lot of girls who aren't real models here, suggesting things like 95% aren't is insulting to those of us who are. So why hang around to be insulted? If MM models have a bad rep then there us no point in being associated with it.
For the UK it is not the same. MM is seen as a varied modelling site so models for example who are life drawing models can host their ports here. Other sites in the UK are primarily glamour. So MM doesn't have a bad rep here.

But even though I have been here a number of years only a small portion of my work comes from here. I USE my port to promote myself to other model employers and always have. Photographers don't often provide paid work that is regular. Some do, and those I have shot with I have generally shot with often. But actually my MM port got me employment with numerous art colleges and institutions, designers and fashion houses; including one major London fashion house full time.

So our ports are not necessarily for photos here.
As for updates we are allowed 15 pics. Once you have lots of comments on them one is reluctant to remove them. So this accounts for some lack of port updates. I recently found out that one can start another one so hence this port.

I reply to almost every request, but those asking for tf when one declines and gives rates, can result in abusive responses. So I get why some girls dont reply or bail out of the site.

A lot of us once we have decent port images and tears dont need to shoot tf. If we are busy either with paid modelling work or another job and do this part time, we reserve our slots for those who offer pay. If we do tf at all it will be because have built a relationship with a photographer who has booked us regularly for paid gigs in the past.

SMS-Photography wrote:
I see this all the time in models profile. “I’ve always dreamed of being a model and I’ll do what ever it takes to be successful”.  So why dose it seem the only thing they won’t do is have their picture taken? Now I’m not taking about porn or even implied nude, I’m talking just “regular” photo shoots.  I've been trying everything to get some TF shoots. It’s in my profile I’ll do “almost” any type of  shoot for TF. I've made casting calls. And sent e-mails to models asking if they would be interested in a shoot. All with virtually no response.

Now I would understand if these model were receiving tons of other offers from more experienced photographers, but they’re not having them take their photos either. I often browse the listing in the area and I see models  “checking-in”  regularly to MM but they have the same portfolio pictures up for 1, 2 and 3 years, sometimes longer, never anything new. And a lot of their photos are either HS senior photos, something obviously take by a friend with a point and shoot and even selfies taken with a cell phone.  This goes for male and female models.

So my question is this.

To photographers--- Is this common?  And because I live in a “dead zone” I just have far less to choose from?

To models:
Are you expecting only a paid photo shoot with Glamour magazine with nothing then 3 or 4 year old photos in your port? Is there something about my profile that screams GWC? Or are the few photos in my port so bad it’s not worth your time getting some practice in front of the camera?

Just asking???

Starting out with TF is always going to be hard until you have a strong port, it's the same for any photographer going down that route. Even though a model will be willing to do anything, it doesn't mean with anyone.

Put MM on the back burner and find a local photography group that arranges shoot days with models. Once you have a few of those under your belt, your port will start to attract models here.

Or alternately offer them some pay.

On model mayhem, photographers pay models, not the other way round unless they offer something they cant get elsewhere. Here, your offer of NOT charging is meaningless.

Welcome to MM, it does get easier.

Carle Photography wrote:

What about the 1% that retire from modeling after a few years then open photography studios?

Do you know someone who has done this?   

SMS-Photography wrote:
I see this all the time in models profile. “I’ve always dreamed of being a model and I’ll do what ever it takes to be successful”.  So why dose it seem the only thing they won’t do is have their picture taken? Now I’m not taking about porn or even implied nude, I’m talking just “regular” photo shoots.  I've been trying everything to get some TF shoots. It’s in my profile I’ll do “almost” any type of  shoot for TF. I've made casting calls. And sent e-mails to models asking if they would be interested in a shoot. All with virtually no response.

Now I would understand if these model were receiving tons of other offers from more experienced photographers, but they’re not having them take their photos either. I often browse the listing in the area and I see models  “checking-in”  regularly to MM but they have the same portfolio pictures up for 1, 2 and 3 years, sometimes longer, never anything new. And a lot of their photos are either HS senior photos, something obviously take by a friend with a point and shoot and even selfies taken with a cell phone.  This goes for male and female models.

So my question is this.

To photographers--- Is this common?  And because I live in a “dead zone” I just have far less to choose from?

To models:
Are you expecting only a paid photo shoot with Glamour magazine with nothing then 3 or 4 year old photos in your port? Is there something about my profile that screams GWC? Or are the few photos in my port so bad it’s not worth your time getting some practice in front of the camera?

Just asking???

Darren Brade wrote:
Step 1. Create Model Profile.
Step 2. Wait for offers of money and Vogue covers to flood in.
Step 3. Sod that! It's too much hard work.
Step 4. Still log on occasionally to see if Vogue left a message.
Step 5. Stop buying Vogue cos it's "a cheap tag anyway"

No it's more like this
Step 1. Create model profile online portfolio hosting site because every potential model employer asks if you have one
Step 2. Use profile on emails to potential model employers such as art institutions, fashion houses, boutiques, designers, promotional model agencies, other model agencies, and photographers offering paid castings. Also liase with one or two photographers on site whose work you like to expand portfolio. Get signed or get full book of paid work with these model employers.
Step3. Wait for the offers of tf to flood in then get abuse when one says one isn't interested in tf any more. Also cringe at the offers if tf for POV dildo work you wouldn't do for a million quid because it's degrading; and the lewd messages from people who think it's a knocking shop.
Step 4. Check in now and again to see if there are the odd serious work offer and apply for castings. Take part in forums for light relief.
Step 5. Continue buying Vogue so you can update your look/blog/knowledge of fashion so you get work and can help photographers who don't know anything about fashion and think Thierry Mugler used to play for Arsenal , how to get good wardrobe for a shoot.



So theres two sides to all this and there are just as many photographers who arent serious or honourable too. Sometimes so many it makes girls leave.

I want to show you this. From an MUA who asked me to find her two elegant reliable models one blonde one brunette for two bridal shoots (she'd already done me, a redhead)

"Eliza, thank you so much for suggesting the girls. They were fantastically professional and their enthusiasm and character matched the looks I had in mind for them perfectly."

That makes it around 25 models I have booked either to model with me or for colleagues not on MM and only one flake. It's true they don't all check in regularly so I will go to their email or website or facebook link on their port as well as an MM pm. But one finds them using the browse function.

So what are you guys doing wrong? Could it be in the search for models likely to do tf that you are going for girls who look like they need proper pics for their port and therefore are not actually models? Whereas I look for models that actually look like they know what the hell they are doing?

Mortonovich wrote:
95% of the "models"  on MM are virtually worthless and are only here to be able to say they are a "model"  with absolutely no intention of doing anything once they realize it actually takes work, skill and a look.

The other 5% can be fantastic but finding them can be tricky.

+1

When you start as a photographer and contact one of those beginner (same level as you) models you are happy when 1% of them even reply on your message.
You have to find the 1%, they are worth it.

Darren Brade wrote:
Step 1. Create Model Profile.
Step 2. Wait for offers of money and Vogue covers to flood in.
Step 3. Sod that! It's too much hard work.
Step 4. Still log on occasionally to see if Vogue left a message.
Step 5. Stop buying Vogue cos it's "a cheap tag anyway"

Haha, awesome!

Abbitt Photography wrote:
Take a look at some of the model rate threads.  New models are told by some they can comment $100/hour or more.  Of course they turn down reasonable offers.

As others have said, the act of filling out a model profile doesn't mean one was even serious at the time, let alone a few months later.  Ironically, I get a better response on craigslist.

I have explained this before.
Hour rates are not what models are after.
Ask me for an hour rate and its $120.
If I am going to travel an hour there, an hour back, spend a whole evening preening and days prior  toning,  spend an hour or two hair and make up, and hours getting wardrobe ready anyone who thinks I am working for less can go take a jump.

Two hours booked like,that at a photographers insistence will be $240.

Because it will likely make me unavailable for a fashion company or art institution who may actually want to book me subsequently to your booking for a whole day; or sometimes for a week.
So however many hours I work I expect a full days pay or I am not interested. BUT ask a model for her day rate and they'll not be much more than a few hours.

So I am about $340 for the whole day and I will work up to 10 hours for that.

So you can either convince yourself that those are unrealistic figures and wonder why models don't reply; or you can accept that this is a realistic figure of what we earn. If I can get not too far off that day rate for life drawing classes and fit work and they put me on the payroll and provide me with regular work (and promo models often the same) then the day rate is fair. An hour
or two is no good to me so you pay a higher rate as compensation for a lost days work elsewhere.

Webspinner wrote:
Pretty much...your profile shows one studio setting and a LOT of photos of the same thing. Honestly go and do some street photography of old men talking in a bar, a family hanging out...these would make me as a model see more of YOUR potential as a photographer.

I don't necessarily agree with this, reason being- when I fist started here I posted a bunch of sports/news photos that had quite a bit of editorial usage and it turned people away.


I have suggested on a few occasions, on the forums, that they delete or hid profiles that haven't been active in x amount of time. This would speed up searches and free up storage space.

I also have issues with the lack of common courtesy...if you aren't interested just say "I'm not interested".  It's amazing in today's society with all the ability to communicate, we as a people are really bad at actually communicating with each other. (Example: you send an email with a list of questions or comments and ask for thoughts re: said email. The response doesn't address 3/4 of the topics in the email- the process is like pulling teeth)

As for the no response answer is your answer- not true I recently went back through and messaged a few people and they were interested but just never responded. Again, it goes back to it takes a minute (if you are super slow) to say "yes I'm interested" or "no thank you").



We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Cheers!

In Balance Photography wrote:
There are about 50-60 models that have logged in within the last two weeks within 50 miles of Oshkosh. There are about 50 photographers that meet the same criteria.

That's a pretty small market.

Yes that is a problem in the USA small pop density large area many without much in way of art colleges/institutions, fashion districts or trade fair venues. Not so much of a problem in the UK or densely populated areas of the USA. If a girl is serious about modelling she will possibly move or become a travelling model ; which further depletes the pool.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

...
Hour rates are not what models are after.
...
BUT ask a model for her day rate and they'll not be much more than a few hours.
...

There's a wide range of pricing policies here on MM, which isn't surprising, given the large number of people actually making up those policies.

Typically, I have not seen as aggressive discounting for full days as I would expect, given all the factors that you have outlined above.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
What you earn is not typical of what most new models who just filled out a MM profile can earn. 

That's the problem, I see where I live.  Many (not all) new models get unrealistic expectations, (perhaps from reading model rate threads) and as a result turn down reasonable, fair market offers.  They maybe get a couple GWC offers, but that's it - they never build a reasonable portfolio, accept few if any shoots and as a result get frustrated and just fade away.

Of course, there are also many who just filled out a MM profile on a whim and just lost interest without any thought about compensation.  The act of filling out a profile does not mean one has a long-term dedication.

This too!

In Balance Photography wrote:
There's a wide range of pricing policies here on MM, which isn't surprising, given the large number of people actually making up those policies.

Typically, I have not seen as aggressive discounting for full days as I would expect, given all the factors that you have outlined above.

Possibly it's more the UK because models are in London anyway not going to struggle to get those days work at art colleges fashion houses an trade fairs. So if we,are going to work for photographers it's a days pay we are after. So most models give photographers here a day or job rate if they are freelance. But some photographers will insist on the hour rate.

I even do discounting for photography students. So if two or three if them can club together and come up with $200 I don't know what the big deal is with other photographers. I once had one plead poverty, I shot with him then found out he lived in a £2 million house when I was living in a tiny room. It was all I could do to stop myself giving him a shakedown for more money.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
...
Possibly it's more the UK because models are in London anyway not going to struggle to get those days work at art colleges fashion houses an trade fairs....

I'm in a relatively small market (Boston) - I've always had the feeling (maybe just a grass is greener perception) that if I was in NY or LA that the rationale for pricing would be similar to what you have stated.

DAN CRUIKSHANK wrote:
It's the circle of amateur photography... Neither models nor photographers want to pay for  good talent to build their port.

Lots of Models want to get paid, or are only willing to shoot TF with experienced photographers... But their port isn't strong enough to gain the attention of these photographers. At the same time they don't think thy need to pay for a shoot, so they never shoot.

Lots of photographers think that by simply offering TF shoots they will gain attention from models... But if they can't offer anything unique there is no reason for a model to shoot with them.

Easiest solution is to develop a personal style by practicing on friends, and eventually you will be able to offer something models want ... Or ... Pay models to help develop your portfolio. Check out the travel availability part in castings, traveling models usually know their shit and are usually experienced working with newer photographers.

I've offered to pay people for shoots before, but what I found was that if they don't want to shoot me for trade, they're not going to want to shoot me for cash either.

I tried for the better part of a year to get someone local, with experience lighting and flattering female athletes, to do some mainstream looking fitness photos with me, and couldn't even get them to answer back when money was offered. I had a six pack at the time, so it wasn't like I didn't suit the genre. If I'd contacted people for black and white art nudes, and grainy art student-looking photos - more of the same old stuff I already have a million images of in my portfolio - I would have gotten so deluged with responses, I wouldn't have been able to sort through them all.

I shot some stuff with other people, but none of it came out looking right, because they weren't experienced in lighting for what I needed, or as familiar with the genre.

The fact is, people either want to shoot with someone, or they don't. Money isn't going to change that, a lot of the time.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
No one has said it yet but there are some sock puppet accounts still on MM.   Clues to some are; never updated with new images yet have multiple offers via tags.   No shots done by credited MM members despite being here for months or years.

That, too, though it's a smaller percentage. BTW, does MM have a way of getting rid of those?

Mortonovich II wrote:

That, too, though it's a smaller percentage. BTW, does MM have a way of getting rid of those?

I have brought it up numerous times, in various forums over the years and even emailed the site but nothing has changed.

Word on the street is the owners of the site don't want to cut member numbers, because it decreases the potential audience size when they sell advertising.

SMS-Photography wrote:
To photographers--- Is this common?  And because I live in a “dead zone” I just have far less to choose from?

To models:
Are you expecting only a paid photo shoot with Glamour magazine with nothing then 3 or 4 year old photos in your port? Is there something about my profile that screams GWC? Or are the few photos in my port so bad it’s not worth your time getting some practice in front of the camera?

Just asking???

There is a photographer in Oshkosh that is on the national radar for ad agency jobs, you aren't in a dead zone. I believe with the advent of FedEx and the internet, there really aren't any dead zones.

Someone suggested your questions would be better served in a critique thread. I think you have a better handle on light and composition than most of the people on this site. You probably need better marketing or networking skills more than anything else, and that's just a guess.

As far as the models in here... there are a handful that are active and ready to work, and then there are about 300,000 that are a waste of time. As an experiment, about 6 months ago I started contacting every new model that appealed to me, that came up in the browse feature within 100 miles of my studio, offering testing with them. To date, two have responded. I tried tags first, then switched to PM's. All I can say, is you aren't alone.

Just to be clear, the models in here that do follow a professional path are very good at what they do. It isn't the site that's a waste of time, just too many of the inmates are.

Robert Randall wrote:
As far as the models in here... there are a handful that are active and ready to work, and then there are about 300,000 that are a waste of time. As an experiment, about 6 months ago I started contacting every new model that appealed to me, that came up in the browse feature within 100 miles of my studio, offering testing with them. To date, two have responded. I tried tags first, then switched to PM's. All I can say, is you aren't alone.

When this is the experience a professional of Mr. Randall's caliber has, it speaks volumes to the percent of models that fill out profiles, remain serious about modeling, and how much work it can take to find those independents who remain serious, and I agree, when one finds them, they are indeed a joy to work with.

Koryn Locke wrote:
I've offered to pay people for shoots before, but what I found was that if they don't want to shoot me for trade, they're not going to want to shoot me for cash either.

I tried for the better part of a year to get someone local, with experience lighting and flattering female athletes, to do some mainstream looking fitness photos with me, and couldn't even get them to answer back when money was offered. I had a six pack at the time, so it wasn't like I didn't suit the genre. If I'd contacted people for black and white art nudes, and grainy art student-looking photos - more of the same old stuff I already have a million images of in my portfolio - I would have gotten so deluged with responses, I wouldn't have been able to sort through them all.

I shot some stuff with other people, but none of it came out looking right, because they weren't experienced in lighting for what I needed, or as familiar with the genre.

The fact is, people either want to shoot with someone, or they don't. Money isn't going to change that, a lot of the time.

I'm glad I entered this thread if for no other reason than to have run into you. I just looked at your portfolio where I was impressed with your range of ability. You have a lock on nudes, you seemed completely unabashed in your poses. You also look refreshingly fun in the lifestyle pictures and you're beautiful in the beauty portraits.

I can only conclude one thing from your dilemma in getting photographers to work with you, and that is they aren't photographers. It's no secret that the majority of artists on this site are here just to see live cooter, and your problem is the logic I use to make my claim. A real photographer would look at your folio and want to at least test with you in any genre you wanted.

I'm no different than anyone else in my desire to see naked women, but photography is so much more than that. It's a shame oil painting isn't as easy as photography; it would be nice if those guys could take on some of the tards that can only pick up a camera.