Model
Angelus
Posts: 3642
Atlanta, Georgia, US
lll wrote:
It's obvious that you guys are not on the same wavelengths and are in different markets. There is little reason to argue apple with orange.
Everyone go get a drink... Right.
Doug lets et a drink my treat. lmao. III you can come to.
Doug Swinskey wrote:
hear hear Doug, I've never stated that I disagreed with your enitre point because you mae very good points.
The problem in this industry is that not every acts with decorum or ethics and so not evey one should have full control. If you're skilled and strongly creative, then by all mean..teach me master. Seriously.
But, Rollo at the local K-Mart having control over my work? I don't think so.
The better you are and the higher up you are...the more control you should have.
But, if someone 's idea of a great photo is a drunken polaroid taken at the club for $5 then....
There is cause for concern.
Is that out of line?
Photographer
John Lavery
Posts: 304
Manchester, Connecticut, US
MikeyBoy wrote:
Time for a Beer !... and then off to read the instruction manual on the Canon 5D.... ( i know, real men dont read instruction manuals.lol)... this cam does everything but wipe yer butt and wax your car..... (rumour has it those 2 functions to be available on the Canon 6D.. out next month)...... 
Happy Holidays ! Boy, did you get jipped! My D70 actually does do that for me!
Let the Nikon/Canon debate begin! lol
Photographer
Tim Downin
Posts: 633
Salem, Oregon, US
John Lavery wrote:
Boy, did you get jipped! My D70 actually does do that for me!
Let the Nikon/Canon debate begin! lol Oh wait, he said Canon? I thought he meant the Minolta 5D....
Photographer
J Haig
Posts: 359
Gananoque, Ontario, Canada
MikeyBoy wrote:
Time for a Beer !... /quote]
Yep..good plan.
Photographer
photo564
Posts: 356
Arlington, Indiana, US
I love the analogy and I agree with it. From reading this and several other forums it is a fair analogy of many photographers today. My opinion is that when I work with a model on a TF-whatever bases, then she gets all of the images and we have equal usage rights. That is what I consider to be a fair trade. I truly appreciate having a model who commits to a shoot and shows up with a good attitude. I will reward a model that creates nice images with me. For those of you who are so concerned with all your expenses and think your time is so much more valuable than the model's, I don't understand why you would be on the net or doing TFP at all. If the money is that important to you, then why not limit your time only to paying projects and hire a model from an agency. I shoot models because I enjoy it, and yes I make some money as well, but if I were only concerned with profit I would shoot products, news, sports, or weddings. I shoot all of these except weddings. And yes a lot of photographers and models out there have a highly inflated sense of self worth, or in another term your ego has far outgrown your value to the world. Frankly you probably destroy more than you create with the attitudes. ![https://www.pbase.com/tk6968/image/48761028.jpg]()
Photographer
La Seine by the Hudson
Posts: 8587
New York, New York, US
Angelus wrote:
Vito wrote:
[smartass mode] You'd almost think you were trying to be analogeous to a TFP/CD shooting arrangement - - but it's not! [/smartass mode] Funny. I liked that.
Vito wrote:
A TFP/CD model on the other hand didn't have to lay out money (or services) for her "body/face/look". Clothes she comes with, she had, and if she went out and bought new clothes, she is keeping them. Secondly, a TFP/CD model is bringing home, usually, more than one "snapshot". In most cases, she is getting a few prints or at least, something SHE NEEDS, images to get her more/real paying work. In an ideal world. Yes. But this isn't an ideal world. And, at a certain point you don't need anymore marketing tools. You need involvement AFTER the fact. Especially when your photographer is the type to give you raw images and turns around and edits the photos into something much mor workable leaving you assed out.
Having her naively thinking "I didn't know I had that beautiful skin. Such color. When were WE in Venice? etc. Ohh it's for sale? Let me buy it."
Bad business deal for the woman with the ingredients, yes. Also, bad deal or the tfp model. In tfp, everything is always negotiable. But, that is between t e two parties only. If what you agree to and are willing to give is accepted then everything is fine. If not, thenbtat's your choice.
Money:
I for one know you're not going to make any monetary gains off my image unless I have a reasonable percentage. Otherwise, pay me for my time. Alot of photogs are egotistical enough to feel that a model should work with them for free and the photog gets to do whateverhe/she wants. No, tfp is a collaborative effort.
And, yes, Hell Yes, she invests in the sjoot a well. Her time, her energy, her skills, her image.
Time-
Do you think her time isn't of value?
Energy -
While you're snapping away she has to pose, stay mentally comfortable (no matter how physically uncomfortable she is) She has to put up with some photogs uneasy touching, looks, statements and mistreatment. Hell, most photogs are trying to get the model as naked as possible.
Skills -
Do you ask how much training she may have done up to that point. Money she's spent to learn all this. Or previous tfp's that the picked a few things up from.
Hell, the gas for driving there. Not many photogs go to the model. She comes to them.
Image -
If her image isn't that important then stand in the mirror and phhotograph yourself. Ifvyou believe she's that worthless then
save her the energy and do it all yourself.
For this industry this model is always changing her look, st le, body,etc. She invests in skin care, hair, clothes. [Yes, she buys clothes and keeps them. You buy cameras and filmm right? And you keep them.] She incests in her hygiene...shower, brushing teeth, et. Be around some who doesn't and you'll understand te statement..."Never miss something 'till it's gone."
She invests in her diet and execise. That ALL is a requirement for her. It's NOT a requiremennt for you. Just as buying equipment is a requirement for you. Not for her. So, p
ease underrstand a model's investment before you say she invests nothing. Simply because you don't have to do what she does you can't relate. The same way as she can't relate to your work. That is why you have each other.
And, in the end...she has toTRUST you with her image. It's a hassle, time-consuming and expensive to deal with photogs who misapropriate your image. And, ithe end most times there's nothing much you c n do about it. And, even if you are copyright holder...what's done is done.
So, please understand that ALOT is required of the model, just as you. And, then she has to hope for a good product. And, ladtly, alrhough you may consider yours lf to be very logical and just at your approach. Most photogs(sadly) just aren't. And, have NO intention of being that way. Every last bit of this can be turned around and 3X more effectively when the shoe's on the other foot...
Model
DawnElizabeth
Posts: 3907
Madison, Mississippi, US
Nope. Doesn't ring a bell......
(shakes head)
*sigh*
((chuckle))
Funny stuff.....
Photographer
La Seine by the Hudson
Posts: 8587
New York, New York, US
So many things wrong with this thread I can't even begin to dissect it...
Model
kristylynn
Posts: 121
Daytona Beach, Florida, US
GMH Images wrote:
There's this guy with an oven, and he isn't a bad cook. He wants to make a nice cake. Trouble is, he hasn't got any ingredients.
He looks on the web to see who's selling all the stuff that goes into a great cake. Only the best, top-class ingredients will do for this guy. {Phew}... he says, when he sees the price for the ingredients: " a bit dear!"
There's this girl on the web who's got all the ingredients and she could sell them but it seems that most of the cooks don't want to pay to make good cakes! She's hungry and doesn't have an oven.
The guy emails her: "hey, you've got the mix, I got the oven, why not bring your ingredients 'round to my place 50 miles away, and
we'll bake the cake together and share out the fine cake?!
The girl says: "Sure... I'm hungry. I'll drive over tomorrow."
The next day, the cook hears a knock at the door.
"I didn't know what kind of cake you wanted us to bake", the girl says, pulling a massive trolley case in through the door and lugging it up the stairs to the cook's kitchen.
The cook is overjoyed, eying the ingredients, and dreaming of the cake they'll soon make!
Three hours later, sweat and heat... a job done well. The cook opens up the oven, the girl is clearing up and putting away the unused cake mix, and pausing - looks over her shoulder, wipes back the sweat from her brow, and sees a great cake!
"Gee..." she says "that's a great cake we made!"
The cook turns around - barely able to wait as he cuts a great bit slice and crams it into his greedy mouth. "Heaven..!" he says, then takes a Polaroid snapshot of the cake.
The girl, still struggling to pack everything she bought with her back into the case, whispers... "can I have a piece of the great cake we made together?'
The cook looks at her quizzically... before thrusting his hand out benevolently...
"Here...", he says. "This picture proves you have all the right stuff to make a great cake. Put it on your web site and tomorrow, everyone will want to buy your ingredients."
The girl looks at the photo. She loves the image of the cake they made.. and drives home the 50 miles happily, peeking at the photo of the cake nurtured on her lap.
She feels hungry as she arrives home, and remembering what the cook said, duly loads the cake picture onto her web site and puts the cook's name there in honor and respect for their great cooking together, and the great oven, and the great ingredients that made that great cake. Wow! They made this great cake together.
She goes to bed hungry, but happy - the picture of the great cake with her great ingredients, pinned to the wall above her bed.
Fifty miles way, the cook goes to bed - belly full and even some cake left for the morning. He sleeps a deep and satisfied sleep.
* * * *
A week later
* * * *
There's this guy with an oven, and he isn't a bad cook. He wants to make a nice cake. Trouble is, he hasn't got any ingredients.
There's this girl on the web who's got all the ingredients and she could sell them but it seems that most of the cooks don't want to pay to her for her ingredients to make great cakes! She's hungry and doesn't have an oven.
She wonders why: if she has all of these great ingredients, and a web site to sell them on, and all these lovely pictures to show what great cakes she helps to make... why does no-one ever buy them.
The moral of this story is TFP!
If you bake a cake with someone, take home half the cake.
If someone wants all the cake, charge them for the ingredients.
As long as cooks get all the cake, ingredient-owners sleep hungry!
But boy... do they have nice pics. Trouble is - the guy who took the picture - not only ate the cake.. but owns that picture too! all i have to say i liked it lol
kristylynn
Model
kristylynn
Posts: 121
Daytona Beach, Florida, US
GMH Images wrote:
I knew my story would cause controversy, but sometimes the truth hurts. your right about that
kristylynn
Model
kristylynn
Posts: 121
Daytona Beach, Florida, US
Vito wrote:
What controversey? What truth?
It was how you see TFP/CD, but not exactly how it works.
And even if it was, the girl got a marketing tool, and the fact that's all she got was a Cost of Business decision. The photo, according to your story, should help her be able to sell her ingredients, something that she couldn't do before, because she was just starting out.
Why do you think models get "screwed" when they do TFP/CDs?
Unless the photographer is an ass and doesn't give them what was agreed to, they're getting what they expected and need. you the photographer sould fell lucky that she lets you shoot her ..
anyone can buy a camera
Photographer
Voice of Reason
Posts: 8741
Anaheim, California, US
kristylynn wrote:
you the photographer sould fell lucky that she lets you shoot her ..
anyone can buy a camera Anyone can buy scuba gear. Anyone can buy a top fuel race car. Anyone can buy a stethescope. Anyone can buy a scalpel. Anyone can buy a scroll saw. Anyone can buy a set of tools. Anyone can buy an engine hoist. Anyone can buy a carburetor rebuild kit. Anyone can buy a garage door opener. Anyone can buy sound mixing equipment.
So?
Photographer
Aaron_H
Posts: 1355
Ann Arbor, Michigan, US
Angelus wrote:
And, the mention of commercial work was provoked of another photog and you made reference to his and my debate. I only added clarity. Clarity? Dude, have you looked at a dictionary lately? Hey, at least your famous!
![https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/blowhoho/9a712f2a.gif]()
I don't mean to be mean, but you keep questioning people's reading skills and calling people ignorant. So in that context it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that your posts border on the illiterate, and your ignorance on many of these issues is astounding. Your ideas of what news/editorial/photojournalism pays, what SI or Business Week pay for covers is some of the funniest shit I've ever read! Thanks for the laughs!
Photographer
John Lavery
Posts: 304
Manchester, Connecticut, US
kristylynn wrote:
you the photographer sould fell lucky that she lets you shoot her ..
anyone can buy a camera And, apparently, anyone can model.
...lucky that she let's you shoot her. ROFLMAO
Model
Mija
Posts: 37
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
ThePoser
You are on target all the way.
While models can bring a certain energy
to a shoot its the photographer who makes
a breaks it all. Just as a film director can bring
ot the best in even a weak script or actors
who may new or inexpirenced.
The photographer is the BOSS.
He/she doesn't have to be bossy though.
We are responsible for lighting, make-up
poses. etc if it ain't right you better know
what to do to correct it or hire someone
that can. I mean make-up.
Anyone that thinks this isn't so.
Think about films you've seen that had
great actors a good ideal but fell apart.
Mostly its the directors fault.
Yes it helps to have pretty models but
you've got to know what to do with them.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Angelus
I'm curious. Can you name any of the clients
you've shot for?
This way when you speak about how the
industry works others can know you have
a working knowledge.
I'm not trying to be funny but I re-read some
of your posts and I'm just curious.
Photographer
4C 41 42
Posts: 11093
Nashville, Tennessee, US
I'm really bummed. I read most of this damn thread and I still didn't get a piece of cake. Oh well.
Photographer
Shadows and Shapes
Posts: 49
Rome, Georgia, US
Cute story........But don't we'll all like to have our cake and eat it to?
Photographer
Mickle Design Werks
Posts: 5967
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Cute story but the anaolgy does not hold true for TFP shoots.
The end product of any photo shoot are images. So are the images suppose to be represented by the cake or the picture of the cake? If any model shoot TFP/CD and does not get images then she is stupid for not making sure she gets some of the cake..er images. Yeah give me a model willing to travel 50 miles and leave without images or a contract stating when, what and how many images are to be given in return. Yeah, they don't exist for me.
I'm big on personal responsibility. Should our ingredient owner made sure that they would get a peice of the cake? Cetainly and it's thier fault for not looking out for thier own self-interest. If they are dumb enough to fall for that then stupid is what stupid does.
I expect models to look after their self-interest. I try to be fair but on the business end you better believe that I am going to make sure that a shoot is worth my time and energy. A model should do the same.
The point of a TFP/CD is that is a barter of time and effort. It has to be worth it for both parties involved.
Model
kristylynn
Posts: 121
Daytona Beach, Florida, US
John Lavery wrote:
And, apparently, anyone can model.
...lucky that she let's you shoot her. ROFLMAO and your a male with a little head
Photographer
Bob Helm Photography
Posts: 18909
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US
What an interestin thread.
The analogy has some merit in that some Tfp is one sided, sometimes to the photographers benefit, sometimes to the model.
Then we get people Who thingk Doug is a arrogant Neaderthal when he is one of the most helpful to both photographers and models and I think anyone who knows him, either from working with him or from the body of his posts would disagree, I know I would.
then we have others who when pausing from reading their instruction books think all they contribute is pushing the shutter release. Maybe he works that way but I have never had a model set up my lights or recommend camera settings.
To me it is a collaborate effort and both contribue to the outcome.
Doug is right in that the photographer controls ever aspect of a shoot
bob
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Robert Helm
You are on target all the way.
Most models don't model long.
Contrast that with the time
and effort made by most of the
photographers here. Go to any
photo seminiar you see lots
of people serious about learning
lighting, etc.
TFP is a great way to produce
intresting and fantastic work that
both models and shooter can show.
However as in paid work you the
photographer are in charge you are
responsible for the final images.
Model
kristylynn
Posts: 121
Daytona Beach, Florida, US
i have only meant afew photographers that where gentlemen and not after more then just photos,its a game to some photographers so we can be on the defensive side when it comes to certain subjects this was the best photographer that i have ever worked with , a perfect gentlemen and i did help him set up the lights and studio for the shoot lol.. http://member.onemodelplace.com/photogr … ?P_ID=8058 kristylynn
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24376
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
kristylynn wrote:
i have only meant afew photographers that where gentlemen
and not after more then just photos knowing your area fairly well..your observations make complete sense to me....
![https://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png]()
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