M*A*C wrote:
why do i not care that they want to be runway models? because i realise, in discouraging people from persuing their dreams i am actually saying 'this is absolute, it will never be, give up".. why do that? its not my dream.. people should make their own mistakes and learn from them rather than being told to believe truths that other people hold true.. we, may personally know that short models have shortcoming, but their careers are not definitive.. occassionally, there are exceptions (rarely).. so i let it be, i KNOW short girls cant be supermodels, and i may advise them on the difficulty of succeeding within the industry, but its wrong to say YOU never will be 'this or that'.. i just think its too confrontational, maybe even misleading

Perhaps after you have personally talked to a couple of thousand girls who have just spend over five thousand dollars on a dream they stood no chance of achieving you would have a different opinion.  Or perhaps not.

M*A*C wrote:
why do i not care that they want to be runway models? because i realise, in discouraging people from persuing their dreams i am actually saying 'this is absolute, it will never be, give up".. why do that? its not my dream.. people should make their own mistakes and learn from them rather than being told to believe truths that other people hold true.. we, may personally know that short models have shortcoming, but their careers are not definitive.. occassionally, there are exceptions (rarely).. so i let it be, i KNOW short girls cant be supermodels, and i may advise them on the difficulty of succeeding within the industry, but its wrong to say YOU never will be 'this or that'.. i just think its too confrontational, maybe even misleading

You know, sometimes there's only one thing people will respond to

No one is telling these women they can never be a model or can't find some kind of success.
They're being realistically told they WILL NOT AND CAN NOT succeed at high fashion runway.  And in cases like those of Udo and Tx they really ARE qualified to say that.
They generally respond to that with anger and derision and insults to models in other productive fields they're told they could succeed in, like the model yesterday who was told that at 5'4" she wasn't going to get high fashion editorial but could do glamour/lingerie/swimwear work (non nude) and she responded by calling models who worked in those fields "third rate sluts."
In the meantime there were photographers going through that thread going "You can have your DREAM baby, I can get you in pictures like that!"
Like Tx said, these're real people with real dreams, but is it crueler to crush the dreams up front and lead them down a USEFUL path where they might get a taste of what they want, or is it worse to LIE to them, string them along, take their money, and then leave them crushed and broken?

Goldie117 wrote:
What he said. When I first came on here (I was new to modeling) I started a thread in the forums asking if I could get fashion work if I lost weight. People were very helpful & nice 2 me, they told me even if I did lose weight I was too short for fashion PERIOD. They then suggested other modeling paths for me that I could realisticly pursue, like commercial prints. I found their advice to be very helpful & I'm spending my time more wisely going after the commercial look, instead of wasting it doing fashion shots (which is something I wouldn't get work in anyway).

Like I said, sometimes we reach people 

M*A*C wrote:
but my point, again.. i am highly emphasising.. DO YOU CARE, that these women continue to splurge money away on false photographers who feed them with flattery and misconcieved notions about their ability to do runway? WHY is it so important to make them see your point, if all they do is come back and spit dirt in your face?

Because I am someone who cares!

I am actively involved in casting and production of runway shows, I shoot runway shows... small ones and Fashion Week.

I work with models and being asked for advise... in real life and I share it here too.

Do you know how it feels when you talk to someone, with high dreams and hopes and just spent $4,000 dollars for a modeling school (or their parents)... and they come to a casting call... and the "model" wouldn't qualify for ANY kind of modeling... and you have to be diplomatic (I am not so hardened as some bookers are who actually have been throwing portfolio books out of the window on the street) and finding the words to tell the young lady and her mother that there is no job for them... too short for runway, too pudgy for swimsuit or lingerie... and a face that is far from being useable in commercial print... not even "real people ads"... recommending acting classes...

So... have you seen the moment when their skin color changes... and the eyes become glassy, while collapsing in posture when they realize they have been lied to... by people who just took their money...

It's no fun having to see this over and over again...

I absolutely care!

And using an internet platform I hope to reach as many people as possible, especially since the average person is not exposed to the real world of high fashion... and share the insights, hoping to inform and reach some so that they can refocus their energies...

I am sure that TXPhotog, Imajin, Taverner, PYPI, oldguysrule, SLE and many more experienced the very same thing and that's the reason they come on here and also try to tell how it is...

Is that a reason enough for you?

UdoR wrote:

Because I am someone who cares!

I am actively involved in casting and production of runway shows, I shoot runway shows... small ones and Fashion Week.

I work with models and being asked for advise... in real life and I share it here too.

Do you know how it feels when you talk to someone, with high dreams and hopes and just spent $4,000 dollars for a modeling school (or their parents)... and they come to a casting call... and the "model" wouldn't qualify for ANY kind of modeling... and you have to be diplomatic (I am not so hardened as some bookers are who actually have been throwing portfolio books out of the window on the street) and finding the words to tell the young lady and her mother that there is no job for them... too short for runway, too pudgy for swimsuit or lingerie... and a face that is far from being useable in commercial print... not even "real people ads"... recommending acting classes...

So... have you seen the moment when their skin color changes... and the eyes become glassy, while collapsing in posture when they realize they have been lied to... by people who just took their money...

It's no fun having to see this over and over again...

I absolutely care!

And using an internet platform I hope to reach as many people as possible, especially since the average person is not exposed to the real world of high fashion... and share the insights, hoping to inform and reach some so that they can refocus their energies...

I am sure that TXPhotog, Imajin, Taverner, PYPI, oldguysrule and many more experienced the very same thing and that's the reason they come on here and also try to tell how it is...

Is that a reason enough for you?

It's reason enough for me

SLE Photography wrote:

Like I said, sometimes we reach people 

U most certainly do

Jamie Batiste wrote:
That's awesome! I'm short so I know not to apply for runway shows.

sa la vie....


too bad

TXPhotog wrote:

There comes a point in the abuse where no, I don't care.  But that's not my position going into any given conversation.

Perhaps it's because I have been involved in these conversations - literally thousands of them - in person, not just on the Internet.  I have seen short models who spent thousands of dollars on portfolios, modeling schools, conventions - none of which was going to help them in the slightest to be what they manifestly could not be.  And all that money was spent because nobody would tell them the truth.

These were real, breathing, caring people standing right in front of me, with their emotions right out there for everyone to see.  The reality of it is gripping.  And such experiences carry over to the 'net.  I am aware that there is a real, breathing, caring person, who is vulnerable to the very abuses I have seen so many fall prey to, on the other end of the computer screen.  Yes, I care. 

And yes, I phrase things in a way designed to get past the comfortable, encouraging, expensive and useless things that they have been told, and want to believe.

But sure enough, it is possible for people's responses to truth to be so virulent that, for them, I give up caring.

its good to know at heart you have the best of intention. When you physically see (in real life) someone you know is spending tons on something that will never happen, naturally you feel compelled to tell them the truth. that shows caring.. a genuine person, who just wants to help.. the problem is, especially while using online mediums, things often get miinterpreted and arguements can errupt in a vicious and spiteful manner, the model thinks they are being 'isolated' and targetted, and not necessarily being given wise info. People look to verify their own truths (part of self-identity theory and self-efficacy process).. when someone points them towards evidence that denies their own truth (own truth being 'i can MODEL just like tall girls.. its an implicit belief).. then anger starts to reside and the model engages in a process called cognitive disonance.. where their behavior + thoughts are in conflict (since you put new, negative thoughts in their head)

moniquevanson wrote:
People who spend money on modeling schools are plain--uhm..well.. If someone is interested in you, believes you have what it takes and coud have lotsa success, they will help you get your coaching etc..
But luckily..for all those 16 year olds who can't face reality..there are modeling "schools"..which can thank the girlies for the money they make through em
So..don't spend..spend..n spend more.. Cuz if you're smart you'll notice whether this money is invested well or not.

i like you...

M*A*C wrote:
its good to know at heart you have the best of intention. When you physically see (in real life) someone you know is spending tons on something that will never happen, naturally you feel compelled to tell them the truth. that shows caring.. a genuine person, who just wants to help.. the problem is, especially while using online mediums, things often get miinterpreted and arguements can errupt in a vicious and spiteful manner, the model thinks they are being 'isolated' and targetted, and not necessarily being given wise info. People look to verify their own truths (part of self-identity theory and self-efficacy process).. when someone points them towards evidence that denies their own truth (own truth being 'i can MODEL just like tall girls.. its an implicit belief).. then anger starts to reside and the model engages in a process called cognitive disonance.. where their behavior + thoughts are in conflict (since you put new, negative thoughts in their head)

You are the second person I have seen use the term cognitive dissonance on the forums.  The other is me.  I use it a lot.

Now, take it one step further.  In real life, as Udo has said, the people I have seen have had a network of people blowing smoke up her skirt while taking her money.  On the forum, it's often true that the model asking the question hasn't been victimized by such folks yet (although all too often they have).  When the realistic assessments are given and argued with, and other people chime in with their sunshine pumps, reinforcing the very beliefs that cause people to be victims - perhaps you can see the possibility of genuine concern and even anger about such "advice".

Tasha Ariel wrote:

i like you...

Thank you ..Guess that means I gotta like you too

SLE Photography wrote:

You know, sometimes there's only one thing people will respond to

No one is telling these women they can never be a model or can't find some kind of success.
They're being realistically told they WILL NOT AND CAN NOT succeed at high fashion runway.  And in cases like those of Udo and Tx they really ARE qualified to say that.
They generally respond to that with anger and derision and insults to models in other productive fields they're told they could succeed in, like the model yesterday who was told that at 5'4" she wasn't going to get high fashion editorial but could do glamour/lingerie/swimwear work (non nude) and she responded by calling models who worked in those fields "third rate sluts."
In the meantime there were photographers going through that thread going "You can have your DREAM baby, I can get you in pictures like that!"
Like Tx said, these're real people with real dreams, but is it crueler to crush the dreams up front and lead them down a USEFUL path where they might get a taste of what they want, or is it worse to LIE to them, string them along, take their money, and then leave them crushed and broken?

there are good point of arguement being presented on this thread, i think what we should all get out of it is that maybe the best approach is to not target in masses, but rather, if we see someone who i falling down this trap, personally confront them and gently give them insight.. instead of isolating them in a group/ label.. where they might feel vulnerable or dicriminated publicly (like on forums.. i mean, its pretty embarressing when people read things like 'oh your not capable'.. its more sensible to personally break it to them (if thats an option)

moniquevanson wrote:

Thank you ..Guess that means I gotta like you too

naw you can say mean things about others and me too so i can be entertained?

lol

TXPhotog wrote:

You are the second person I have seen use the term cognitive dissonance on the forums.  The other is me.  I use it a lot.

Now, take it one step further.  In real life, as Udo has said, the people I have seen have had a network of people blowing smoke up her skirt while taking her money.  On the forum, it's often true that the model asking the question hasn't been victimized by such folks yet (although all too often they have).  When the realistic assessments are given and argued with, and other people chime in with their sunshine pumps, reinforcing the very beliefs that cause people to be victims - perhaps you can see the possibility of genuine concern and even anger about such "advice".

He said "Sunshine Pumps"

TXPhotog wrote:

You are the second person I have seen use the term cognitive dissonance on the forums.  The other is me.  I use it a lot.

Now, take it one step further.  In real life, as Udo has said, the people I have seen have had a network of people blowing smoke up her skirt while taking her money.  On the forum, it's often true that the model asking the question hasn't been victimized by such folks yet (although all too often they have).  When the realistic assessments are given and argued with, and other people chime in with their sunshine pumps, reinforcing the very beliefs that cause people to be victims - perhaps you can see the possibility of genuine concern and even anger about such "advice".

yes, such false advice by photographers who are looking to scam short models is disturbing indeed.. publicly hurting peoples feelings might not be the best option either.. but yea, i see your point, i see my point too.. i guess this topic is quite debateable, and i dont think there is a right or wrong aswer to it.. basically, short models cant do runway.. but just dont say it too harshly (or too in their face)

TXPhotog wrote:
You are the second person I have seen use the term cognitive dissonance on the forums.  The other is me.  I use it a lot.

Now, take it one step further.  In real life, as Udo has said, the people I have seen have had a network of people blowing smoke up her skirt while taking her money.  On the forum, it's often true that the model asking the question hasn't been victimized by such folks yet (although all too often they have).  When the realistic assessments are given and argued with, and other people chime in with their sunshine pumps, reinforcing the very beliefs that cause people to be victims - perhaps you can see the possibility of genuine concern and even anger about such "advice".

Well no, Curt Burgess uses it too, and he's a licensed practicing psychiatrist or psychologist (I forget which).  Since M*A*C* is a student pursuing a psychology degree & is apparently basing her analysis on those studies, it'd be interesting to see what a qualified pro like Curt says about her opinion here.

M*A*C wrote:
yes, such false advice by photographers who are looking to scam short models is disturbing indeed.. publicly hurting peoples feelings might not be the best option either.. but yea, i see your point, i see my point too.. i guess this topic is quite debateable, and i dont think there is a right or wrong aswer to it.. basically, short models cant do runway.. but just dont say it too harshly (or too in their face)

But aren't you doing them a disservice if that's the only way to break it to them?

SLE Photography wrote:

Well no, Curt Burgess uses it too, and he's a licensed practicing psychiatrist or psychologist (I forget which).  Since M*A*C* is a student pursuing a psychology degree & is apparently basing her analysis on those studies, it'd be interesting to see what a qualified pro like Curt says about her opinion here.

lol, lets call him.. we might be able to make gentle psychological changes in the thought patterns of dreamers..

SLE Photography wrote:

But aren't you doing them a disservice if that's the only way to break it to them?

no.. fuelled agression, anger or negative public criticism only fuels their fire of rage towards you even more..  one-on-one, works wonders.. it shows you have personal consideration

M*A*C wrote:

WOW.. thank you, i thought i was speaking a different language no, its not directly obvious that discriminatory or degrading behavior is occuring, but there is a negative protruding tone that is rather hateful.. i have also been given knowledge that short models are 'fighting' for their runway rights, i didnt know this was so apparent.. like i said, i dont think they will succeed, and i agree that taller models do look better on runway.. thats all i agree with, not the 'i'm gonna kill your dream' bit
lol

To walk the Runway is a privledge - not a right. God you haubbits are annoying!

SLE Photography wrote:
Well no, Curt Burgess uses it too, and he's a licensed practicing psychiatrist or psychologist (I forget which).  Since M*A*C* is a student pursuing a psychology degree & is apparently basing her analysis on those studies, it'd be interesting to see what a qualified pro like Curt says about her opinion here.

I hadn't noticed Curt using it.  I've had a few graduate level courses in psychology, but I'm by no means qualified as a professional in the field.  I would yield to whatever Curt's opinion on correct usage is.

Junk Fashion wrote:

To walk the Runway is a privledge - not a right. God you haubbits are annoying!

every man is born free and can thus only become enslaved if he allows mind to be subject to corrupt, negative, or false frames of thought, evoked by the ill intention of his fellow men

TXPhotog wrote:
I and the public know What all schoolchildren learn - Those to whom evil is done do evil in return. - WH Auden

SMART


so, those evil photographers who scam short model for lots of $$$$  will pay in the end... thus, we dont have to do the dirty work and hurt people intentionally or unintentionally..

got an exam tomorrow.. today =p.. my house is flooded (massive storms in my area), and i am sleep deprived.. have a good day you all, i'm out

M*A*C wrote:

no.. fuelled agression, anger or negative public criticism only fuels their fire of rage towards you even more..  one-on-one, works wonders.. it shows you have personal consideration

You just said "not to their face" so how are you doing one on one?

TXPhotog wrote:

I hadn't noticed Curt using it.  I've had a few graduate level courses in psychology, but I'm by no means qualified as a professional in the field.  I would yield to whatever Curt's opinion on correct usage is.

It's not your usage I was questioning 

UdoR wrote:
"haubbit"

Sorry to drag this back on-topic, but how does one pronounce that?

I mean, is the initial 'h' silent, as would be inferred from the "haute", making it sound like obit.?

RickMartin wrote:

Sorry to drag this back on-topic, but how does one pronounce that?

I mean, is the initial 'h' silent, as would be inferred from the "haute", making it sound like obit.?

i though your name was ricky martin bahahah

RickMartin wrote:
Sorry to drag this back on-topic, but how does one pronounce that?

I mean, is the initial 'h' silent, as would be inferred from the "haute", making it sound like obit.?

Correct!

It's like "o^bbit", silent "h"

Alianna Kyran wrote:

Actually, the reason Kate Moss is famous is because someone spotted her in an airport when she was 14 and 5'4", loved her look and wanted a new style campaign. They wanted a SHORT model (the horror!). She was supposed to look like a CHILD, and that led to some interesting claims etc. about the industry that are not worth mentioning now. She made the campaign huge and others picked her up, because by then she had a 'name'. She is listed at 5'8" now on Storm Models' website, but many people openly argue about her height. Many models who have seen/worked with her say she is 5'5"-5'6".

She is the ultimate exception though.

I wonder why no one talks of Laetitia Casta as an exception? She's one of the best known lingerie models ever and she's 5'7".

That was the nest fairy tale I've ever heard from a Haubbit!

Imajin Studios wrote:

OH GEEZ here we go again, and i guess you are taller that a haubbit

just how tall is a haubbit? haha

M*A*C wrote:

but my point, again.. i am highly emphasising.. DO YOU CARE, that these women continue to splurge money away on false photographers who feed them with flattery and misconcieved notions about their ability to do runway? WHY is it so important to make them see your point, if all they do is come back and spit dirt in your face?

Why do we care? Easy because the scum that prey on, and create haubbits make the world a far more difficult place for the rest of us.

Fifi-Alexis wrote:
I can't get over 1. Someone comparing this word to the N-Word.... that's a load of crap if I've ever heard..... 2. Saying that by using this word in Canada, you could get in trouble.....again, another large load of crap..... and.... 3. the delusional chicks who still come in and try and dispute fact.


Awesome!!!

No one said haubbits were reasoning folk Fifi