SLE Photography wrote:
Anyone else too scared to volunteer 'cause they're afraid they'd be a one-star?

LOL~ Crazy dude~! Come on and join up James, you're at least a 3 star.

Craig Seay wrote:

LOL~ Crazy dude~! Come on and join up James, you're at least a 3 star.

Hell no.  I'm too busy with TFP shoots to do extra TFP shoots 
Seriously, my editing pace is too glacial for me to make this of use to the models.

SLE Photography wrote:

Hell no.  I'm too busy with TFP shoots to do extra TFP shoots 
Seriously, my editing pace is too glacial for me to make this of use to the models.

Cool. Send a few more edits my way. Take care bro.

fotowerks photography wrote:
I'd like to be involved....let me know what I can do!

Terry~

Welcome aboard Terry, you're pre-approved~!! And we have some new applicants to check out, YaY~!!

Gotta fix breakfast for the little kiddles and then I'll be back.

Have you booked your Newbie today? IF so, let us know.

Craig Seay wrote:
**ANNOUNCEMENT and discussion**

When you sign up for consideration please be aware that there is currently a rating system in place. This system is administered and monitored by "The Top Drawer" and myself. The rating consists of 1-5 stars. If you score lower than 2 you will not make the list but you are welcome to return after 30 days to be re-evaluated. We do this to provide quality work, and for no other reason. Right now you may request your rating as it is not posted. We may soon post your rating if you wish it so but we will then need to inform the public that a photographer's rating is only posted at his/her request. Currently a model may request to know your rating and we will be obliged to offer the model that information in private.

I believe a rating system is necessary here in order to keep the standard high and to encourage everyone to aim high, but I am open to other alternatives so it's open now for discussion.

Let's keep your discussion clean and positive please. We must strive to maintain good feelings here.

Thanks.

trust me.. a rating system like you are talking about.. and letting people know will end badly...  just my opinion

AndrewG wrote:

trust me.. a rating system like you are talking about.. and letting people know will end badly...  just my opinion

Please post your thoughts on this in detail Andrew so that we may discuss. Thanks.

AndrewG wrote:
trust me.. a rating system like you are talking about.. and letting people know will end badly...  just my opinion

i dont think a rating system is to say so and so is better or worse than anyone else, as thats all a matter of taste, but if used to say to the new model, this photographer will make time for you and will provide you with images promptly and will take the time to create somthing with you, as those are the things that would be most important to the prospective model. so i think the rating system can be a good thing if used as a tool for prospective models

Craig Seay wrote:

Please post your thoughts on this in detail Andrew so that we may discuss. Thanks.

Sean...I am in agreement with this also...why?

Because over time and time again, I have read of so many trying to alter the true nature of this site...and I too have tried to bring in my 2 cents.  However this site is and will stay a community "street-corner" society who at times with prevail with intellingence, but then I see too much ignorance.  So think...when one is rating...who is doing the rating.  There are no standards here like we have in the Professional markets and after being one for over 25 years and then joining this community now for 2 years...I think it would be quite difficult to wrangle the "true" sense of this rating.  You on the other hand have made waves here and have given way too much time to this site.

I truely feel you should create your own site!  And I am sure you have thought about this many times. 

MM is not and never will become a school, or a place to find the right way...it's more like Wikipedia for Photographers and Models etc.  Some of the time, the information is on the money, but how many times have we read such outlandish remarks or bad information about our business.  Just for example...how many times do we need to read as to why Models need to sign release forms!  UGH.  This won't end and actually I now believe it shouldn't.  This way all the newbies have to rifle through all the muck like everyone else has and in doing so, this site will never become more then what it really is.... a community bulliten board of Hit and Miss photography. 

There are some really good pros here, but the majority of MM is not and most are un-informed of the business and it's common practices.  So when you want to incorporate a rating system into this equation...one must ask, who is doing the rating.  Now are we rating the shoot day, the images, the photographer, the models...all together...it can be a bit off and this may or may not hurt someone in the end.  I feel that the owner's of this site have kept this policy true to this form for years and why in the end MM does work.  It has a life of it's own and in the end, what we say or do or feel does not really matter...it's entertainment.

Some here can put on a great show... you my friend are the PT Barnum of MM...and I say this kindly and with admiration.  I can read how you have tried many times to bring this site up to higher levels of professionalism, but with so many tugging at the heels of others and not knowing the subtle differences of what is a great image...well you get my idea here.  I don't want to keep ranting, which some of you know I can do quite easliy.

Hey...If I am wrong, so be it and more power to all who can see this differently.

I am only agreeing with Andrew,  who brought up the fact, that in the end, it may go all wrong.  So why bother, and just let it be...it will take on a life of its own in the end.

Thanks for listening,
PixelFisher

Craig Seay wrote:

Please post your thoughts on this in detail Andrew so that we may discuss. Thanks.

seeing as you asked here...  I am posting my thoughts as I presented them to you in a pm.


I am not sure that "announcing" or giving "stars" to people is a good idea. It could lead to some in-fighting or cat fights etc. Someone might go off and think that they deserve more than you are giving them. Or think you are playing favorites. This could be a bad thing in my opinion.

For example.. someone might think that they deserve to be in the "Top Drawer" when you have not put them there.. and even if they dont say it.. might take it as a personal insult if they feel that their work might be better than someone else who IS in the "Top Drawer".

I agree with your dividing it into the "List" and "Top Drawer"... but assigning "stars" in my opinion is only leading down the path of possible problems...

Then there is the question that others are going to ask.. Why are you the one to decide who gets to be Top Drawer? I have no problems with it as I know some of your background in this field. And I saw how you dealt with the POD contests. Others might not know or care.

Someone might just say.. hey.. I deserve more than 2 stars.. or hey I am better that "Joe Blow Photog" who is in the Top Drawer.. this could also fester, and the program could fail without us even knowing who or why.

Remember, A chain is only as good as its weakest link.

And yes.. who decides on giving more stars, and on what requirements do you follow to decide on more or less stars?

No, even though I understand what you are doing, I think a rating system is not a good idea.

Here is a situation for you (that could cause at least one problem...):

2 Photographers in the same local area both are on the List. A model talks to both... in trying to decide, one photographer mentions that he has 4 stars, and the other photographer has only 3 (or 2, whatever). This is going to sound like he is "bragging" or putting the other photographer down. but both are on the List. Model goes to other photographer, asks him how many stars he has.. and tells him what the first one said. Now he feels that he is under the gun to prove himself better... you see where this is going? It could get bad.. then post on MM and then more people leaving the list or feeling it isnt something that they to be a part of...

I'm hearing you my brothers.

I'm rethinking the rating system and I'm on the fence now. Someone push me one way or the other, haha~! OK, seriously.

Heavy and solid push goes here!!!

I started this thing so that we could help newbie models with their ports. I want to "GIFT" them as it were, the opportunity to shoot with a photographer that can present them truly in the best light possible. In other words, take the aspiring model who just came over from MySpace with his/her crummy-ass pictures that a friend took with a point'n'shoot or camera phone, and "GIFT" him/her with a real shoot or two. Let's see what this person really looks like. Are you with me here so far?

This is a great way for all of us to GIVE back. We have all been given help by someone in the past. be it a model given a shoot, or a photographer that was given advice or tips. With this list we have the chance to give back.. or as some would say.. "Pay it Forward".

OK, What about the newbie photographer or even the GWC who sees "THE LIST" as a prime opportunity to "hook up" with newbie models. We've seen the guys who pounce on newbies with tags as soon as they sign up. I know some of these guys are just trying to be enterprising but we also know some of them are like the Big Bad Wolf. We don't want that here, so how do we put off the well meaning newbie photographers until they're ready, and how do we keep out the not so well meaning riff raff, if I may be candid here?

More than likely with you and the members of the "Top Drawer" choosing who is on the list.. the "GWC" wont be there. The list is of Photographers not newbie models. The models can look to see if the "GWC" is on the list.. if he says he is and isnt.. she can find that out very quickly. Putting them off? you mean letting them on the list if they arent "ready"? That is why you or your "Top Drawer" look carefully at their portfolios and their profiles. I know.. that dosent assure us that some well meaning GWC with a bit of skill wont get thru.. but if he is on the list and a model complains.. then he will be caught.. and hopefully removed from the list.

I'm all ears so speak to me. I'm hearing some say that we shouldn't have a rating system, and I have great respect and admiration for the guys doing the saying here. What then? I've read some alternatives. Let's hear more of those ideas.

Again.. I have expressed my thoughts on the rating system.. but I do think that the LIST is a great idea.

Craig Seay wrote:
I'm hearing you my brothers.

I'm rethinking the rating system and I'm on the fence now. Someone push me one way or the other, haha~! OK, seriously.

I started this thing so that we could help newbie models with their ports. I want to "GIFT" them as it were, the opportunity to shoot with a photographer that can present them truly in the best light possible. In other words, take the aspiring model who just came over from MySpace with his/her crummy-ass pictures that a friend took with a point'n'shoot or camera phone, and "GIFT" him/her with a real shoot or two. Let's see what this person really looks like. Are you with me here so far?

OK, What about the newbie photographer or even the GWC who sees "THE LIST" as a prime opportunity to "hook up" with newbie models. We've seen the guys who pounce on newbies with tags as soon as they sign up. I know some of these guys are just trying to be enterprising but we also know some of them are like the Big Bad Wolf. We don't want that here, so how do we put off the well meaning newbie photographers until they're ready, and how do we keep out the not so well meaning riff raff, if I may be candid here?

I'm all ears so speak to me. I'm hearing some say that we shouldn't have a rating system, and I have great respect and admiration for the guys doing the saying here. What then? I've read some alternatives. Let's hear more of those ideas.

Also, if you support the idea of a rating system, now would be a good time to speak up.

I do understand the idea of a rating system and its purpose...dont mind the concept at all but maybe simplify it  to a criteria list to  and the photog must meet that to be accepted. The  work  must meet a standard ofcourse and a reference from a model possibly to act of the function of quality control...
It is a noble cause and I am sure we can all  make it work

Craig Seay wrote:
I started this thing so that we could help newbie models with their ports. I want to "GIFT" them as it were, the opportunity to shoot with a photographer that can present them truly in the best light possible. In other words, take the aspiring model who just came over from MySpace with his/her crummy-ass pictures that a friend took with a point'n'shoot or camera phone, and "GIFT" him/her with a real shoot or two. Let's see what this person really looks like. Are you with me here so far?

Now I don't oppose the rating method as long as its clearly enacted and stated upfront that this is part of the prerequisite requirements for being included, though I don't disagree with some of the concerns noted  esp about egos...

Plus citing your comments above if a model's port is so awful (and I've seen more than a few that fit your description above) then even a "2 star" photog is going to significantly elevate her or his port so the need to distinguish betw a two and 5 star  tog may not be so critical.

Moreover, any shoot may benefit the model, but a model working with a tog really has to be a marriage of goals. What we may consider a top drawer tog who has a style that that tog may wish to pursue may not have a style necessarily suitable for a specific model. Personally I've been stripping down my own work away from some of my more conceptual stuff so I can have a body of work to approach agencies with to shoot fresh faces .  So for example, depending on the goals of a specific model, some one who shoots fashion and is "top drawer" may not be the best photog for a 5'2  commercial model. I'm sort of speaking in theory, but hopefully people get my point. 

So not only may there be subjectivity as to what other togs consider 2, 3 , 4 or 5 stars, there is also a suitability or appropriateness factor.

Regardless, I do strongly agree that there should be a minimum standard, and suggest that maybe togs can either opt in or out of any rating system if they choose to participate. For any one opting in, it shouldn't be the basis of one person's decision, but should maybe the average of min 3 "top drawer" togs. Though I'm not sure that all the reviewing togs would really want to make a commitment to this process.

I also don't think that aspiring to raise the level of work and discourse above the least common denominator is a bad thing. So noting that these forums appeal to all skill levels shouldn't be a reason not to aspire to higher levels.

anyway..just a few more cents.