ADGibson wrote:
Your statements hardly sound rational. You don't offer any solutions to the problem. You are taking shots at people that live near the southern border. Making assumptions that we are all uneducated and speak with an accent. If you have ever spoken to someone like myself that has lived here all my life we do not have accents and Phoenix is a very high-tech town. If you have never been here then please don't assume you know what people are like here. You would not appreciate that if we started taking shots at people that live in Alaska. I would not be true or fair. So please stop with the attitude.

I have not mentioned anything about war with Mexico. Nor would I. The ranchers that have come together are only helping the Border Patrol spot people coming across the border illegally because the size of the job is massive. I do not belong to any militia nor have I gone to patrol the borders. I don't expect to change your attitude but I feel I must jump in because the comments made are far from the truth and are not constructive.

Aaron

Dude, let's review:

Tim Hammond wrote:
I'm on the side of rational discussion and human decency.  I think there is an issue that needs resolved, but there's so much fanatic nationalism and redneck macho bullshitting that the real issue has become a sidebar.  Too many people itching for a fight, not enough looking for a solution.

Nothing there about Phoenix, nothing there about people who live near the southern border, nothing there about you ... unless the shoe fits, and only you would know that.

Tim Hammond wrote:
If an attitude of resolving issues through rational discussion and human decency "gets in the way of what's happening" then it shouldn't be happening.

As for rednecks in Phoenix, I'm sure some are and some aren't.  For me, where you live has nothing to do with it.  With respect to this issue, you fit my definition if:
- you're talking a bunch of macho bullshit about war with Mexico
- you're patrolling the border with a band of armed vigilantes
- you're otherwise taking, or threatening to take, the law into your own hands
- the passion in your argument boils down to "by god I'm a 'murican and them ain't,"
- if, in your view, the status of "illegal alien," or even the status of "not American"  makes someone less deserving of human decency than an American citizen
- if your idea of a solution has to do with confining and controlling people who fit blanket stereotypes rather than changing the policies and circumstances that led to and enable the continuation of the problem.

I said "some are, some aren't."  That's true of every place in the country, including Alaska. I only said it about Phoenix because you brought up Phoenix.

OK, I did say "you're" several times, but note that it was preceded by if.  I wasn't taking pot shots at anyone, simply saying if you, or anyone else, fits these criteria, then they fit my definition of a redneck.  It was a generic "you," and I apologize if it came across as speaking to you specifically.  That was not my intent.

The accent I implied was an accent of attitude, not geography.  I've spent quite a bit of time in Phoenix and other parts of Arizona and have some friends there.

I'm glad to hear there are people simply helping the border patrol spot migrants.  However the fellow I heard interviewed on the radio said he was carrying plastic zip cuffs and a glock, and he said "yes, we will defend ourselves when necessary, and we will take the necessary steps to protect our border."  That's an armed vigilante, any way you (generic you) slice it.

As for offering a solution, I don't have one.  It will take people a lot smarter than me to solve this problem.  But I guarantee a lasting solution will have to do with changing policies and economic circumstances, not vigilantes and violence.

You seem to have taken my generic description of a particularly disturbing attitude that I've seen from all over the country and become all defensive about it.  You sound sincere, but methinks thou doest protest too much.  Read it again, and note that all important if.  If you still think I'm taking pot shots at you or Arizona, perhaps you should examine the source of your defensiveness.

Tim Hammond wrote:

ADGibson wrote:
Your statements hardly sound rational. You don't offer any solutions to the problem. You are taking shots at people that live near the southern border. Making assumptions that we are all uneducated and speak with an accent. If you have ever spoken to someone like myself that has lived here all my life we do not have accents and Phoenix is a very high-tech town. If you have never been here then please don't assume you know what people are like here. You would not appreciate that if we started taking shots at people that live in Alaska. I would not be true or fair. So please stop with the attitude.

I have not mentioned anything about war with Mexico. Nor would I. The ranchers that have come together are only helping the Border Patrol spot people coming across the border illegally because the size of the job is massive. I do not belong to any militia nor have I gone to patrol the borders. I don't expect to change your attitude but I feel I must jump in because the comments made are far from the truth and are not constructive.

Aaron

Dude, let's review:

Tim Hammond wrote:
I'm on the side of rational discussion and human decency.  I think there is an issue that needs resolved, but there's so much fanatic nationalism and redneck macho bullshitting that the real issue has become a sidebar.  Too many people itching for a fight, not enough looking for a solution.

Nothing there about Phoenix, nothing there about people who live near the southern border, nothing there about you ... unless the shoe fits, and only you would know that.


I said "some are, some aren't."  That's true of every place in the country, including Alaska. I only said it about Phoenix because you brought up Phoenix.

OK, I did say "you're" several times, but note that it was preceded by if.  I wasn't taking pot shots at anyone, simply saying if you, or anyone else, fits these criteria, then they fit my definition of a redneck.  It was a generic "you," and I apologize if it came across as speaking to you specifically.  That was not my intent.

The accent I implied was an accent of attitude, not geography.  I've spent quite a bit of time in Phoenix and other parts of Arizona and have some friends there.

I'm glad to hear there are people simply helping the border patrol spot migrants.  However the fellow I heard interviewed on the radio said he was carrying plastic zip cuffs and a glock, and he said "yes, we will defend ourselves when necessary, and we will take the necessary steps to protect our border."  That's an armed vigilante, any way you (generic you) slice it.

As for offering a solution, I don't have one.  It will take people a lot smarter than me to solve this problem.  But I guarantee a lasting solution will have to do with changing policies and economic circumstances, not vigilantes and violence.

You seem to have taken my generic description of a particularly disturbing attitude that I've seen from all over the country and become all defensive about it.  You sound sincere, but methinks thou doest protest too much.  Read it again, and note that all important if.  If you still think I'm taking pot shots at you or Arizona, perhaps you should examine the source of your defensiveness.

Of course the news media used that clip. Please don't be so nieve about what they do. It's not about report accuracy. Hasn't been for years.

MEWanoDesigns wrote:
Personally, I think this can all be settled with some banana pudding. We can have jello wresting, too.


Seriously, though, All of this speculation doesn't mean a damn thing unless you're willing to go out and do something about it. Have an opinion? Great. Wanna get mad? Fantastic, anger rocks! But don't get pissed off about an issue that you've done nothing to change. If you're for illegal aliens residing in the US, do something about it; if you're against them residing in the US, do something about it. Sign a petition, speak to your congressman... posting on a message board isn't going to change the world. It's just another Canon vs. Nikon debate with the names changed.

Personally, I don't know where I stand on illegal residency. I'll be the first to tell you that I don't know much abut facts and figures and ow much one illegal alien costs me, yadda yadda yadda. But I do know that illegal = against the law. And I know that laws = order. And if we don't follow the laws, we'll be a nation of disorder and unrest.

actually I am doing something.  I vote, I also think posting about it on a message board can help.  A lot of people don't understand the issues and so don't vote.  I think if they see the numbers and hear the arguments it may promp a few people to vote or take sides at least and think about the issue.  I don't think message boards change religious views or political views drasticly but on subjects like this that cross political and religions lines I think people can be swayed and motivated to at least vote on these issues when they are the ballot.  These are issues that a lot of people ignore, we cant do that anymore.

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
Really?  wow- question- how do they eat, cloth themselves, but diversions, and necessities?

Ohhhh- that's right- they go to the store and pay a sales tax.

A friend of a friend's father and mother came here illegally.  Father had a heart condition that required a heart bypass.  He got it.  Bypasses cost how much?  50K?  He'd been here 2 years.
How much sales tax had he paid into the system?

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
Question- when an illegal alien has a job with ANY company that has a payroll- do they just get all their money?

Nooo- thats right- the tax is deducted from the paychecks.  But- they cant file a tax return and claim a refund.  So guess what thier best 35 years are gonna look like when they want social security retirement benefits- yup you guessed it- not very much at all.

Well the vast majority I see are day laborers.  They aren't paying tax, it a cash economy.  If you are referring to people who are holding jobs as teachers, admin assistants, i.e. technical jobs, then as much as it sucks, I think that people need to be like the ones going through the legal immigration route.

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
Also- just for the record- its not just rich Americans who reap the benefits of illegal immigrants- its everyone.

You ever stay at a hotel?  Guess how much your room would cost if all the custodial staff were legal and unionized, etc.

You ever eat at a fast food restaurant?  etc

You ever had your lawn mowed? etc

You ever had a live in child care provider? etc

You ever went into any corporate or govt building?  Guess who the lowest bidding company for custodial and maintenance hires.

You ever buy fruit at a grocery store?

You ever but clothes that were made in the US?

Here's where I have a problem.  There should be a living wage in this country.  The only reason why illegal immigrants are used is because companies are too cheap to employ US workers on wages that can be lived on.  What kind of solution is it to have almost slave labor?   I keep hearing liberals and progressives spew this and I can't believe it!  If prices have to go up so tha† the people who wipe grandmas ass in the home or build my house, so be it. 

Quite frankly much of this excess labor cost is a red herring as the companies and corporations that are saving money due to labor costs are pocketing the profits and the real costs  are getting picked up by taxpayers.  How fair is that????

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
Truth of the matter is YOU and EVERY ONE of you and all our politicians have created the need and economy and NOT enforced the laws that makes this segment of our population existing here today.  Politicians dont want to kill illegal immigration- they just know its an easy target as that group doesnt vote.  They also know there is a large segment of the US population which they can play upon racial fears of the growing ethnic diversity in our county.  In the end- non action takes place- too much political pressure from the special interests who need this cheap labor and they are representing YOU who want cheap prices and for both you and your spouse to be able to work and exist in today's tough economy.

See above.  In my mind US citizens need to start balancing the checkbook.  That means looking long and hard at unneeded wars, providing tax relief to major oil corporations making record profits, allowing illegal labor at cheap prices but having to pick up the bill for extra schooling, health care and other infrastructure costs.  People need to stop trusting one political party or the other and start really asking questions, even if it means breaking from party lines.

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
Now- if we as a country really wanted to be genuine and bite the bullet and pay higher prices for all this stuff- FINE.  But you cant just deport people who have been here and living in a system you created and that you relied on for years.  Any law that can in one night make a significant percentage of your population into a felon is ludicrous.  They have kids, they have community relationships, they have jobs that have to be filled.

Truthfully, if I could have my way I'd trade.  I'd keep many of the illegal immigrants and send a bunch of lazy ass citizens down to el salvador, honduras, mexico.  I'm not anti-immigrant, per se.   But I still think that if having border and I'll say it as well, population control is important to a nation.    And to continually say okay well you guys came here illegally but from now on it's the next 20 million that we'll throw out is BS.

I do think long termers, people who have been here since the last amnesty program 8-10 years should have some sort of way of staying.   I actually know a number of folks who have basically been here their whole lives.   But recent arrivals, with no ties, I'm sorry, I don't know how else you enforce the concept of a border.

Jose- JoseOnline wrote:
This is not about amnesty- that makes it seem like we are being generous and giving something.  This is about fairness- in our legal environment- selective enforcement of a law is NOT allowed.  Many of our states have laws on the books against blowjobs.  What if all of you were sent to jail or deported tomorrow as felons cuz you give or recieve blowjobs- you were breaking the law- you criminal- your illegal!

OMG I can't believe you said this! 

We are being generous.  We have continually given people who are not citizens, the right to be citizens.   That I consider something.

UdoR wrote:

So, what do you call those people who enter the US legally via a tourist, work or student visa and then overstay the expiration date?

"Illegal" means that they have no legal permission to be in the country, not the way how they entered!

And someone who is living in the US but is not a citizen is technically not called "a person" but resident.

Someone with a valid workvisa and has a permanent home in the US is a resident. There are many different level, even of immigration status'.

I am myself a "Permanent Resident Alien".

I see it so often that people on the extreme right have no clue about immigration laws etc., but are so outspoken against those "illegals", but don't know how that system even works.

I do understand the system, Udo. It's possible that my choice of verbiage was not precise enough to satisfy you, but I think the message was reasonably clear.
I would argue that a resident is a person; a particular type (if you will) of person.
Someone who has over stayed a visa no longer has permission to be here and therefore becomes an illegal alien.
Anyone with a valid visa who has an abode in this country is indeed a resident alien.
I am indeed right of center on this subject,  however I am hardly extreme right wing. I like to describe myself, sometimes, as being out to tright of Atilla the Hun, but it's for show. I really lean quite to the left on many things, especially those things having to do with individual liberty.

Lens N Light wrote:
however I am hardly extreme right wing. I like to describe myself, sometimes, as being out to tright of Atilla the Hun, but it's for show. I really lean quite to the left on many things, especially those things having to do with individual liberty.

Sorry, I didn't refer to you with "extreme right wing"... just noticed how they use those words without acknowledging the shades of gray.

UdoR wrote:

Sorry, I didn't refer to you with "extreme right wing"... just noticed how they use those words without acknowledging the shades of gray.

OK!

Lens N Light wrote:
Problem is, if you don't shut down the border, none of the rest will work.

B I N G O ~~~ !

joe duerr wrote:
While we are learning Spanish we should also probablily learn Vietnamese, Japanese and an assortment of other languages so that we can all just get along. The silliest solution I've heard yet... I'm sorry but when I knew I was going to be in Japan for two years I learned how to read, write and speak Japanese. I WAS ONLY GOING TO BE THERE 2 YEARS!!! When someone wants to change their life and move to another country if they expect any success at all they better learn the language of the country they intend to succeed in. CHANGING YOUR LIFE 101

I was in the Military, in Germany .. and chose to learn the language .. I agree with you 100%. I may not speak it fluently .. but I got alot of respect, and met alot of people and went places, that I may not have gone to, had I not learned the language ..

There were other members of the Military that would never so much as even leave the base .. or even want to try and learn the language .. I even had one guy tell me once , "Man .. I jus wanna do my time, get out .. and get back to my porch in Louisiana" .. doh ! Amazing .. you're in a Country that you may never see again .. but all ya wanna do is .. sit in the barracks .. and get drunk .. whewww .. okie .. loser .. grab amother bud lite, moron ..

veester wrote:
Oh, I agree with shutting down the border, just using means that are as non-violent as humanly possible. I just wouldn;t want to hear about commando style guard gunning down families.

Dont worry .. that will be your next headline in your local newspaper .. coming soon to a newstand near you .. seriously .. it'll happen sooner then ya think  ..

John Jebbia wrote:
They're too lazy to learn English.

I refuse to speak Spanish. Even though I can speak and understand a little, I will not speak it. Almost daily, I have some jacksass say to me "Hablo Espanol?" I just say "What?" as if I have no idea what he/she is saying. Sometimes I just confuse the shit out of them by replying in German.

Yep .. I've even had illegal aliens TELL me that they dont wanna learn the language .. I had another tell me once, that he fawks up the job on purpose, so that he, or his *brother* could do overtime and get more $$$ .. "we just here to make $$$ .. then go back to Mexico .. and live like King" .. yeah .. grrreat!

Lens N Light wrote:
I'm on the side of the USA.  I'm probably a lot nastier in my attitude than most of you. I guess maybe that is becuse I've been here longer.
(Of course you realise that every one of the illegals in this country, as their very first act, broke our laws.)

1) Shut down the border. Whatever it takes, but no one who is uninvited gets in. If that takes the NG and machine guns and Cobra gunships, so be it.

2) All illegal immigrants already here have 90 days to register with INS and get green cards. Such cards will be iussued for anyone not under indictment or who is found to have been convicted of a felony. Those are deported - period.

3) After the 90 day period, anyone who has knowingly hired illegals shall pay a $1000 /day/person fine, due immediately and continuing until the infraction stops. Antone making a case that they were shown proof of a green card falsely shall pay a find of $100 /day/per person and those false claimers will be deported immediately.

4) All green card holders have five years to become American Citizens. One test for citizenship shall be fluency in English. Good faith attempts should be made to help them in this process.

5) To relieve the shortage of labor caused by this, amuch more open legal immigration policy shall be designed and put in place. Part of the allowable criteria for entry shall be no convictions or indictment for a felony (not cleared) here or in their country of origin .

6) Any immigrant who is convicted of a felony which could result in a prison term of longer than 1 year, shall be deported after serving his/her sentence.

7) No schools will be bilingual. Remedial classes in the English language will be offered.

8) Any child born in this country whose parents are both illegal aliens shall not be an American Citizen until at least one of his/her parents is naturalized.

I love it....my education was affected by the children of immigrants. It seemed to be the cool thing to do to know how to speak english, but only speak it at the lunch tables so that they could be in their own special classes. Also, while I was growing up, many hispanic men would hit on me or even try to feel me up in a few extreme cases...just because they either A. didn't respect american women, or B. they just wanted to get a white woman knocked up to stay here. My father's job (probabtion officer) was made insanely difficult because the illegals who broke the law weren't jailed....or sent back because "there wasn't a bus load, so the deportation people couldn't be bothered". I saw many neighborhoods destroyed by the unfit living conditions kept by the illegals. 30 to a trailer is never a good thing. The parks in the town were trashed by the illegals who would have tournaments...bring out couches, tables, trophies, and tons and tons of trash, and they'd leave all kinds of crap out. Some of the school's facilities had to be shut down because of the illegals respect for the property. I'm just rambling now, but the affect that illegal immigration had on me through my time in school was outrageous. Things need to stop.

qphotonyc wrote:
personally, i can't see tearing these moms, dads and their kids out of this city and deporting them. it'd be a loss comparable to 911, and by that i mean EVERYBODY in the city knew somebody who lost their life down there. it made nyc feel like a small town to me for the 1st time in my life.

these folks are our neighbors. they're the delivery guy who lugs my groceries up 5 flights cuz its too much for me to carry alone, theyre the gal who folds my laundry because i dont do that too well. they're parents of the kids i used to coach in little league. and they're classmates of my son in cuny. they're my neighbors.

That's why I love this city!

It was weird, when I arrived 14 years ago for business, stepping my foot on 7th Ave in front of Penn Station out of the cab... and with all that energy... I had the overwhelming feeling and said "I am home!"

I have travelled and seen 17 countries on all continents (except Africa and Australia) I have lived in so many cities, I have never felt anywhere that comes even close to that experience.

This is my town, it's my home.

Karl Blessing wrote:
It gets hard when the law treats immigrants as potential terrorist.

EDIT: I have no problems with immigration, I just wish it wouldnt be so hard for people to gain citizenship, which is probally the reason why there is a high number of "illegals".

try getting citizenship in another country besides the US see how hard it is.

Reverse this whole situation and put an American in Mexico seeking work and ask your self what would happen

Lens N Light wrote:
4) All green card holders have five years to become American Citizens. One test for citizenship shall be fluency in English. Good faith attempts should be made to help them in this process.

Actually, you must be a green card holder for five years before you can apply for citizenship (three years is married to US citizen, and must still live together).