Taray Jennings wrote:
Gee, with all the MUA's out there just find one who does not require a kit fee. Simple.

This is not about photographers looking for a MUA for TFP/TFCD and the MUA saying ok but I want my kit fee,too. This is about how MUA contact photographers and say,can we shoot TFP/TFCD and oh yea,,, pay me a kit fee,too while we are at it.

Mary wrote:
You pay for what you need to pay for.  If you as a photographer have a killer portfolio, chances are the artist will be dying to work with you and you wont hear the words "kit fee"  if the artist has a feeling she or he may walk away with nothing of use for their books because your book isnt great or the model isnt great, you may then hear the words "kit fee".  If the artist is new and has nothing to show anyone she is lucky to get anyone to work with her and should not be tossing around the idea of a kit fee.  If the artist is the only one on the shoot that knows what she or he is doing, a kit fee would be well worth paying.  Sometimes the photographer is the only one that knows what he or she is doing and if thats the case he or she should be getting paid.....

when team members are not equal and do not bring equal talent and worth to the shoot, thats when money should be mentioned.

What she said. 

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

I never use it, the look of the plain white background has become too stereotypical and plain in my book. One less expense for me as a result.

I hear what you are saying -- I find it kind of boring, for myself (good for maybe one or two shots a year).  It's just another possible expense. 

A tfp shoot can be expensive.  Everyone on the team should be respecting each other and shouldering their portion of expenses.  Everyone should either be sharing the pie equally or doing their job for altruistic reasons.

Do some of you older professionals remember when you would do stuff for free -- simply because of its intrinsic value?  Some days I think it's good for me to return to those times for a short visit. 

Albert Einstein once said, "I only saw as far as I could, because I stood on the shoulders of giants."  I often think of the giants who have been a part of my life -- and I try to be a giant for someone else.

I'm off my soap box, now.
Tony

Chip Miller wrote:
My two pennies....
Waiving any kind of day-rate, I rent the studio, I rent the lights, my camera is paid off, my computers are paid off, I buy the cd's that are handed out, I take the time to set up the shoot, I take the time to edit the images and do touch ups, I pay for the postage to get everyone their cd's or prints if neccesary, I make the prints to be handed out if agreed upon.  Just to do a test could easily cost me several hundred dollars.  I remeber having to even pay for film developing!!
I feet that a tfcd/tfp is a trade straight out.  The images received is what everyone is working for.  I understand that MUA are shelling out lots of money but so is the photographer. 

It may seem a lopsided investment but ultimately the photographer also has greater earning potential!

I have not had to deal with anyone asking for a kit fee yet (Knock on wood) but I would simply say no thanks and get someone else. 
Everyone can justify charging something for their services and I can see this tread is like beating a dead horse.

So I actually think I gave three cents.  You can keep the change!  :-)

Chip you are a piece of WORK. LMAO!!! Too funny.

i M a g e ye wrote:
Couples more weeks passed he found that same model given other photographers credit for their work and didn't find his name within that group.

I have experienced this myself.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

I have experienced this myself.

Ever wonder why?

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

makeup cost vs. photographers equipment cost,,,,,,there won`t be any equal there

cameras last a life time...makeup has to be replaced every 3 months....considering we have 100's of eyeshadows at about $30 a piece....like 50 foundations at $50 a piece, lashes at everyshoot $15 each, lipstick pallets at roughly $215 each, airbrush paints, compressor, gun.....cleansers, toners, moisturizers ...all for different skin types, etc.....on average a month,I find myself dishing out anywhere from $300-$500 a month, just replenishing. Even applicators...u want quality and hygeine stardards met right? These things are expensive! My kits are well over $25,000, and I still consider them pretty basic!

Nitasha Najeeb wrote:
"kit fee" is just a small cost to help cover products that are used. For example: Fake lashes cost usually $10-$25, and if u keep doing TFCD/TFP and using your foundations...then obviously eventually your going to run out. So while we are donating our time and skills for free...unfortunatly these little costs add up (for makeup and rinestones and feathers and etc..) Depending on the assignment, I think kit fees are fair (not if your doing a very basic makeup, then it should be free, no questions asked) but if you're doing a shoot that requires alot of extras...well....who do you think buys/supplies it?

So how does it work, when the photographer goes in and manipulate the MUA's work and on the image. All of a sudden the MUA is getting more work but no-one has really seen the original work? Not that the photographer should be upset at the extra work the MUA is getting but because he/ she had to do extra work on the work. (Humble reply)

ArtisticDigitalImages wrote:
You think Barbie and Ken will take your portfolio up a notch or two and they will be signing a full release.

Shreck and Fiona show up and ask for a quote for the same day and are willing to pay the going rate.

Come on people. If you aren't simply nuts you will all sign Shreck and Fiona because you aren't negotiable right... Not.

If someone wants a little extra for working what otherwise might be a trade gig look at the big picture (whole situation) and do what's in your own best interest. Either take the deal, decline, or make a counter offer. Don't waste your emotions on some petty false ethical line in the sand.

Shrek and Fiona every time. I need the money. Also if Barbie and Ken start by asking for one thing, than most likely they will ask for another. And another. Eventually I will learn to hate their faces and not use their photos anyway. Trust me, I have tried both ways,

Star

Mary wrote:
You pay for what you need to pay for.  If you as a photographer have a killer portfolio, chances are the artist will be dying to work with you and you wont hear the words "kit fee"  if the artist has a feeling she or he may walk away with nothing of use for their books because your book isnt great or the model isnt great, you may then hear the words "kit fee".  If the artist is new and has nothing to show anyone she is lucky to get anyone to work with her and should not be tossing around the idea of a kit fee.  If the artist is the only one on the shoot that knows what she or he is doing, a kit fee would be well worth paying.  Sometimes the photographer is the only one that knows what he or she is doing and if thats the case he or she should be getting paid.....

when team members are not equal and do not bring equal talent and worth to the shoot, thats when money should be mentioned.

Thank you! Everything I think and would have said myself!

i M a g e ye wrote:

Ever wonder why?

In a few cases I cave culled my credits.
They were too old. And no longer pertained to what I am shooting now.
In some cases I have had to cull again just because of all the schoolage drama that surrounds a few photographers that I have worked with.
I always put photographer credits on every image that is posted though.
But as I contunue to shoot The list will get longer and longer when do we stop 20 50 100?
Or do we just keep the current photographers that are in our ports?
Or the most impressive?
Or say to hell with credits and show our selves by our images.

rachelrose wrote:
yeah for a trade shoot, i dont really worry about a kit fee. i just dont do trade shoots very often so that the problem of a super diminishing kit aren't very bad. i think as a mua, you need to find a few photographers that you really connect with on a creative and personal level. there is a strong bond between a stylits and photographers that really "get" each other.

when i was new and fresh out of make-up school, i made the mistake of testing ALL the time, wasting most of my kit on things that were really of no benefit to me. one time i think that i got shafted into doing somebody's PAID headshots and it was sold to me by the photographer as TFP. not cool. but i have since invested a lot of time and money in my kit and my career.

mary is absolutely right that if the MUA is DYING to work with you they will walk 5 miles uphill with no shoes in a snowstorm to make it happen.

i got burned by a photographer on MM, that I PAID to participate in one of his photoshoots because I liked his work so much... did he ever give me pictures... no. He refused to give me any not even a disk of the images. so i consider that a lesson learned, a very expensive lesson. which was awful.

as far as the comment about our kits being $500... i should be so lucky. thats like the cost of my empty make-up case.

A good make up artist is worth a kit fee. Saves time away from Adobe CS.

LeBrone wrote:
Quality MU is really expensive, so you are helping to cover the cost of the supplies. They are providing the skills in return for images. My MUA's kit is worth thousands, and the mu has a short life span and constantly needs to be replenished.

Oh yeah I hear, you! I sympathise so very much. That's why after I paid to set up my own studio (thousands) and purchase equipment (thousands) and constantly update props and equipment plus pay for electricity (hundreds and hundreds), I decided to just  pay models more money and MUA's more money again.

TFP  IS a mutual exchange between parties.  We all get the photo's for our time, services and passion. If you dont like the deal just sit back and charge, but as someone else said DONT charge me $50 to scratch your back.

Anyone paying MUA for a tfp shoot has rocks in their head.

rachelrose wrote:
as far as the comment about our kits being $500... i should be so lucky. thats like the cost of my empty make-up case.

No shit. MY "kit" is worth about $500, and I'm not a makeup arist, just a model just keeping the basics on hand to do my own make-up when needed.

This really isn't that complex. Sometimes MUAs will trade and invest their own money into materials for the shoots. Sometimes they want their costs covered, but will waive their day rate for images.  Sometimes they just want you to pony up a full day rate.  It's a matter of who wants what more.

Star wrote:
One thing that is really, really, bugging me is how one or two people have mentioned $500 for a case?!

Puh-Lease.

If you live in Los Angeles there is no excuse not to go to downtown LA, 11th and Wall st for example, and pick up a heavy duty metal case with wheels for under $50.00. They look just like those super expensive make-up cases, probably cause they are the same cases. Just like you go to Something Special on Santee street for your crystals. If you truly are a professional you know where and how to buy your equipment.

Ok, rant is now over...

Star- those kits break after a couple of months.
If it breaks open while you are walking- CRACK! All your powders, shadows, etc are gone.



I will NOT use a 50$ case when I have 3000$  inventory( yes its that much!) in it that can be easily ruined. There is a reason why a good case costs as much.

Wouldnt you give your camera the same respect  that we give our inventory?

Nitasha Najeeb wrote:
These things are expensive! My kits are well over $25,000, and I still consider them pretty basic!

OMG - I'm in the wrong business.  I want to sell Makeup!    

Seriously,  I've seen MUAs on here say their kit is worth $3000 in inventory and others say several hundred dollars.  But $25K?  Wow, that's a healthy sum of change.  I'm impressed with THAT investment - especially when it's considered pretty basic.

i M a g e ye wrote:

This is how I view it exactly.

I second that!