BrooklynPhoto wrote:
AA batteries, $3 for 4,or $20 for 4 rechargeble, flashtubes $30-$60, modelling light bulbs, $14-$40, gels/diffusion $120 a roll, balckwrap, $20-$30 a roll, wardrobe, backdrops, clothespins and other expebdabiles- ????  and that's just the stuff that wears out and needs to be replaced on  regular basis.

$10 for a set of 4 rechargeable 2500 mAh AA batteries, good for 100-1000+ cycles.
Flashtubes $100, good for 100K+ flashes
Gels/Diffusion material: $100 for a 4 foot by 50 foot roll, good for years
Blackwrap, 1 roll $20, haven't used up a quarter of mine in 5 years.
Clothespins: $1.00 for 50, good for 20-100 shoots.
Seamless: $40, good for 4-20 shoots
Muslin or canvas backdrops: $100-$500, good for many years

Photographic expenses are high enough that using real costs makes a point.  Artificially inflating them isn't going to convince anyone that their real costs are suddenly lower.

Costs for lipstick brushes (useable on one person), mascara wands (ditto), false eyelashes (ditto), sponges (ditto), foundation (used up), blush, eyecoloring, mascara, dermablend, lipstick, hair goops, er products , etc., are typically much lower than costs for photo equipment...but they get used up a lot faster, too.

If you don't want to pay the artist, or you don't want to pay a kit fee....don't. Find someone who will work with you for free. Typically that means a less experienced/talented artist, or one who wants images like what you're trying to create.

mikell wrote:
Kit fees? I have a 4x5, an old Yashica twin lens reflex (sorry but it was one of my favorites ) and three 35mm's sitting around should not to mention and assortment of studio lighting,why should the model pay for that or I for her make-up?

I dunno. Did you use up the 4x5, 35mm cameras, or TLR during the shoot?

John Allan wrote:

You can't be serious - "Optional"?

I stopped shooting for quite a while, because doing a project that had the potential of producing images that were at the technical level that interested me, was just horribly expensive. Even with primaries testing, the costs to the photographer for portfolio shots (where there is no usage reimbursement), is astronomical.

Film (yes, I know digital now)
Processing (see above)
Location fees
Assistant(s)
Studio
Wardrobe rental
Accessory rental
Any primary that's not testing
prints
additional equipment rental
Set expenses.
Project management crap

on and on and on - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

John

Yes. OPTIONAL. Lets say we are speaking about digital camera's because thats what most people on here use.... lets get real here. 90% of the photographers on this site are NOT working, well paid, blah blah blah photogs. They do it for fun, leisure, to get a kick outta pretty girls, as side cash ect ect ect... You don't NEEEEEED all the equiptment. All you need is the damn camera and a memory card. TA DA. If you are a REAL photographer you wouldnt even be arguing on this subject. Sorry. Harsh yet true.

Kevin Connery wrote:

BrooklynPhoto wrote:
AA batteries, $3 for 4,or $20 for 4 rechargeble, flashtubes $30-$60, modelling light bulbs, $14-$40, gels/diffusion $120 a roll, balckwrap, $20-$30 a roll, wardrobe, backdrops, clothespins and other expebdabiles- ????  and that's just the stuff that wears out and needs to be replaced on  regular basis.

$10 for a set of 4 rechargeable 2500 mAh AA batteries, good for 100-1000+ cycles.
Flashtubes $100, good for 100K+ flashes
Gels/Diffusion material: $100 for a 4 foot by 50 foot roll, good for years
Blackwrap, 1 roll $20, haven't used up a quarter of mine in 5 years.
Clothespins: $1.00 for 50, good for 20-100 shoots.
Seamless: $40, good for 4-20 shoots
Muslin or canvas backdrops: $100-$500, good for many years

Photographic expenses are high enough that using real costs makes a point.  Artificially inflating them isn't going to convince anyone that their real costs are suddenly lower.

Costs for lipstick brushes (useable on one person), mascara wands (ditto), false eyelashes (ditto), sponges (ditto), foundation (used up), blush, eyecoloring, mascara, dermablend, lipstick, hair goops, er products , etc., are typically much lower than costs for photo equipment...but they get used up a lot faster, too.

If you don't want to pay the artist, or you don't want to pay a kit fee....don't. Find someone who will work with you for free. Typically that means a less experienced/talented artist, or one who wants images like what you're trying to create.


I dunno. Did you use up the 4x5, 35mm cameras, or TLR during the shoot?

I'd just thought since we're developing fun lists... that I would do so too. Just to give you an idea. MAC make up is fairly common amoung MUAs..... but can also be on the cheaper end depending on if they also use Chanel, Dior ect... And this is JUST MU not the actual skin prep before hand.

Eyeshadows - $13.50-35 EACH (imagine having a need of at LEAST 25-50 shadows)

Mascara - about $15-25 per tube (need, brown and black as essentials... often times more)

Foundation - $35-60 per bottle (If you have a pallet to match exact shades... you're looking at hundreds of dollars. If not, Still hundreds to have the shades you need)

Powders - about $20 a piece. For each shade... as well as bronzing, shimmers ect

Blushes- $20-40 a piece... again, you need many colors for different skin types, colors and for different contouring.

Lips- $15-40 a piece.... this includes lipsticks, glosses, liners ect. Each at this price.


Now this is the BARE minimum.... a good MUA will have all of this and plenty plenty more. And they will replenish over and over and over again.

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
why do all of you want sh.t for free?

the MUA has to buy expensive makeup!

why do you think this free free  free free?

This is the problem with TFP/CD..everyone thinks it's the norm NOT to pay! Everyone in the long run gets f*cked with NO lube..(excuse my french) If everyone is working for free and KEEPS on working for free NO one will get paid!

TFP/CD is fine if you're starting out..but then you should get to the point where your services are good enough to ask for payment and in turn, acknowledge that other people need to get paid as well.

Makeup is expensive and sorry boys..but it does need to be replaced much faster than your standard equipment..as for charging for your camera and such..that's why you get PAYING clients to offset the money you invested in your equipment.

seems like alot of internet photographers are gung-ho about charging models to shoot with them but when someone turns around and bleeds the same case they give others for why they should be paid y'all get annoyed. It's a write off at the end of the year anyhow..just keep a receipt.

as for the original question..tfp/cd with a kit fee..usually means the MUA is not sure he/she will get images she can use and she needs to cover MU and travel expenses..I don't see anything wrong with that..considering some models want their travel covered if they are shooting for free and some photographers turn around and charge for post production per image.

Kit fee is usually what? $20-50 bucks top? that's pretty cheap for quality work. As a MUA as well I'd either test for free or I charge.

Just find an MUA who'll test for you for free..no biggie.

Andrea Barnett wrote:
Yes. OPTIONAL. Lets say we are speaking about digital camera's because thats what most people on here use.... lets get real here. 90% of the photographers on this site are NOT working, well paid, blah blah blah photogs. They do it for fun, leisure, to get a kick outta pretty girls, as side cash ect ect ect... You don't NEEEEEED all the equiptment. All you need is the damn camera and a memory card. TA DA.

Well you are certainly entitled to target those people for your work if that's your market.

Andrea Barnett wrote:
If you are a REAL photographer you wouldnt even be arguing on this subject. Sorry. Harsh yet true.

Pointless, meaningless, self-gratifying insult.

John

thisismyurl wrote:
Both sides have expenses and both deserve to be compensated for their time, if both sides can't see the value of the other and accept the relationship as a trade off then it's a clear indication to the other of who is of less value.

I agree...well said.

Roshar wrote:
Star- those kits break after a couple of months.
If it breaks open while you are walking- CRACK! All your powders, shadows, etc are gone.



I will NOT use a 50$ case when I have 3000$  inventory( yes its that much!) in it that can be easily ruined. There is a reason why a good case costs as much.

Wouldnt you give your camera the same respect  that we give our inventory?

You go to Harbor Frieght and Tools in Pasadena. You go to where they make the cases. It is not as expensive as people put it out to be. I don't inflate my expenses, I wish other people wouldn't inflate theirs. You can get quality heavy duty cases in LA, not the cheap 9.95 ones on the street, but this is the wholesale district. In LA there really isn't an excuse to pay retail.

John Allan wrote:

With all due respect Mary - I just don't get why an MUA would exhaust 1/2 day of their lives in return for a "kit fee" of $25 or $50, for images they anticipated as not likely to exhibit quality at an exceptable level for their eventual use to self-promote.

In reciprocol, I wouldn't test with a model or mua or stylist, where I received a nominal consumables fee, where I thought their contribution wouldn't be sufficient to produce images of the quality I required. It would be such a 'time suck'.


John

I wouldnt waste my time either but I am explaining why some artists do.

Kevin Conneryquote wrote:
I dunno. Did you use up the 4x5, 35mm cameras, or TLR during the shoot?

Kind of my point It doesn't matter that's my expense not the models
as for the MUA I wouldn't ask one to do TFP. If I feel one's needed I should pay her

Frank Perez Imagery wrote:
cameras and lights are also worth thousands...they have only so much life in them also..... should us photographes start charging an equipment fee?

you mean my camera is going to die? AARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

Manolo wrote:
hello

Desirée wrote:

cute.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

Quality professional cameras run from 1,000-20,000 bucks, good light sets can run upwards of 500-1000 per light,the laptop I use for editing cost almost 3 grand, often a photographers editing charge can reach 50 bucks an hour or more....
And you were saying?.............

If your equipment is too costly I suggest finding another hobby.

W.MANUEL wrote:
THIS IS NOT A RANT! I'm just trying to understand why are there any monies envolved in a TFP?CD Shoot? That's it, that's all and how do people feel about it. No need for anyone to get upset. GEESH!

Because as someone has already pointed out, the MUA's "equipment" has to be replaced with each shoot. Do you replace your lighting equipment, camera, flash cards, etc for each new shoot? Is there less of those products for each new shoot? NO..  The MUA does.

And for those that say you're replacing a camera every couple of years, why??  How long did you keep your film cameras? You replace because you want, not need.. Assuming it's not broken. However, MUA's HAVE TO REPLACE!!! Really, do you them to use the sponge they used on Sally on you??

Keith aka Wolfie wrote:
Because as someone has already pointed out, the MUA's "equipment" has to be replaced with each shoot. Do you replace your lighting equipment, camera, flash cards, etc for each new shoot? Is there less of those products for each new shoot? NO..  The MUA does.

And for those that say you're replacing a camera every couple of years, why??  How long did you keep your film cameras? You replace because you want, not need.. Assuming it's not broken. However, MUA's HAVE TO REPLACE!!! Really, do you them to use the sponge they used on Sally on you??

and same applies when you shoot with film? that needs to be replenished as well, as well as the developper

No, it boils all down to economics, how much do you want to work for me and how much for you?

Herman

AlainaWray wrote:
if you want quality images then you would have no problem paying a kit fee on a tfp shoot. makeup life span is ALOT shorter then the camera equipment life span. the makeup and hair people make a world of difference to the final image. im talking quality here. if you are to cheap to pay, get the model to do it, or a student mua or someone who just wants to do it. but if you want quality images..........

but if you want quality images.......... hire a professional makeup artist at professional makeup artist rates, or improve the quality of your photography so that pro-level MUA's want to test with you to build their books. kit fees are nonsense.

LeBrone wrote:
Quality MU is really expensive, so you are helping to cover the cost of the supplies. They are providing the skills in return for images. My MUA's kit is worth thousands, and the mu has a short life span and constantly needs to be replenished.

Sounds like digital cameras and software and computers and...oh well...I'm certainly biased here.Don't we all need images to promote our work?

Keith aka Wolfie wrote:
...And for those that say you're replacing a camera every couple of years, why??  How long did you keep your film cameras? You replace because you want, not need.. Assuming it's not broken. However, MUA's HAVE TO REPLACE!!! Really, do you them to use the sponge they used on Sally on you??

First I replace equipment because there is new product that produces better images. Film cams longevity does not relate to the constant advances in digital  requiring me to replace the afore mentioned EXPENSIVE products. Oh..and who retouches all those images after the shoot when the MUA, Stylist and Models jobs are done?  So tell me again why in a TF* the MUA deserves TF$ and no one else does. And don't forget to factor in  all the model's expenses. We all have our own expenses and we each elected to bare them when we entered our chosen field. No crying allowed. If you shoot TF* then each bares their own cost's and labor in producing the images.

LeBrone wrote:
I know, everything costs money; quality mu, quality equipment, quality models. I see how this thread was killed b4, it has hostile undertones from the start.

This argument can go on for days, which costs more. To me each of us have a vital role in creating the work we do. To be good at what we do we must use high quality products, people and scenes.  The MUA I work with asked me what I felt was reasonable for a TFCD event. When we both sat down we both realized we had an equal amount of money put out to shoot the event, yet I also had more time invested. Our trade agreement is no kit fees, no money exchange. We simply work together to create both of our visions, so when she has an idea she wants to see in print I shoot it for her.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

Quality professional cameras run from 1,000-20,000 bucks, good light sets can run upwards of 500-1000 per light,the laptop I use for editing cost almost 3 grand, often a photographers editing charge can reach 50 bucks an hour or more....
And you were saying?.............

Yes, but you always have that stuff. You arnt buying a new one each like month or something. A MUA always has to buy new MU when it runs out.

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:
If you ask this question in the stylist forum, they'll tell you that a "Kit Fee" is a sure sign of an amateur makeup artist who doesn't realize that professionals either:

1. test to improve their book, and eat the cost of the makeup because the photos are valuable compensation, OR

2. charge standard day rates.

A 'kit fee' basically says, "I know that I'm not very good and nobody will actually hire me, but I'd rather make $50 and get copies of the photos, rather than test up."

I've seen a lot of VERY GOOD muas out there who charge a kit fee. So, I don't think what you said is true.

Colorado Model Amber wrote:

Yes, but you always have that stuff. You arnt buying a new one each like month or something. A MUA always has to buy new MU when it runs out.

Your statement doesn't follow logic.

Logic track: A photographer pays 1 time for his equipment therefor since a make up artist pays for replenishments a make up artists work is more valuable.

So we pay a given $10-20k plus equipment updates and a kit worth $2k is more valuable because the MUA has to replenish it throughout the year? (Maybe another $2k)

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

No, like I said I had the thread killed(deleted) it was about to gettin pretty ugly.

KILL KILL KILL the thread, somebody!!

Alexio Ferrao wrote:
KILL KILL KILL the thread, somebody!!

Now thats a statement I agree with.

UnoMundo wrote:
why do all of you want sh.t for free?

the MUA has to buy expensive makeup!

why do you think this free free  free free?

Because expense is what we are talking about,every job I did when I was working full time I needed to know what it was costing me and what to charge to cover it.Why should a MUA be any different.Understand, it isn't the final cost that bugs so many of us about "kit fees",But many of us view it's as just one of those added on items that never reflect the true value of what make up is being used.If the rest of us have to figure out our costs why shouldn't mua's . 
       Business's at large have learned that if they break things down into add on items such as install fee,restocking fee,and  shipping and handle fee they can make more money ,because most people will never argue about them.They do this even though the cost of these items have already been figured into the price.
       Then there the mua's that feel they should be tipped on top of being paid and getting a kit fee!.Wait until you have a MUA get upset because neither the model or the photographer would tip her,(yes she was paid for and a kit fee was paid,)the make up was not that good and that is the last time I pay for a "kit fee".
     All of this may work in some parts of this business,but MM is hardly
that end of it,there is no industry standard that applies here.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

makeup cost vs. photographers equipment cost,,,,,,there won`t be any equal there

Wrong. your camera will last you several years, your lights and lenses even longer. A working pro MUA will run through 1-2K of makeup and supplies each month (I know some who go through more than that). At that rate your one time investment for equipment when depreciated over the life of said equipment comes out to be a lower expenditure than that of an MUA over the same period of time.

Your only expendable is film, CD/DVDs, and mailers. What do spend on those a month? And this comes from a photographer none the less.

stan wigmore photograph wrote:

Because expense is what we are talking about,every job I did when I was working full time I needed to know what it was costing me and what to charge to cover it.Why should a MUA be any different.Understand, it isn't the final cost that bugs so many of us about "kit fees",But many of us view it's as just one of those added on items that never reflect the true value of what make up is being used.If the rest of us have to figure out our costs why shouldn't mua's .

It would be impossible to work out costs for a single shoot, fine you could charge for mascara and eye lashes, maybe even a lipstic.. but how do you charge for cleanser, toner, moisturiser, cotton buds, tissues, cotton pads, foundation, eye shaddow, concealer, powder, the list goes on, none of these items will be used in full. It is impossible to give an acurate cost of 1 days makeup which is why a MUA like myself charges a kit fee, the alternative would be handing in recipts and this would be much higher than a kit fee!

LeBrone wrote:
Quality MU is really expensive, so you are helping to cover the cost of the supplies. They are providing the skills in return for images. My MUA's kit is worth thousands, and the mu has a short life span and constantly needs to be replenished.

Cameras, lenses, studio equipment are not cheap either and yet we don't charge equipment fee .... and you models need to buy clothing ... you don't charge shopping fee?? .. so why kit fee?