Daniela Victoria wrote:

I wasn't told that. He's a jackass that's a little too high on himself...and maybe on something else too.

Facts are facts. I said it for you

I stand corrected

C L A V I C wrote:

I think it's fair to say that it takes more skill to be a great photographer than it does to be a great model.

I'm not saying there that it takes a small amount of skill to be a great model, I'm just saying it takes more skill to be a great photographer.

I think it is fair to say that you need to get out more. 

C L A V I C wrote:

Explain how I'm ' high on myself ' for not paying models when I can just as easily shoot with models who are looking to update their portfolios and are just as good as the ones that want pay.

see my previous post.

C L A V I C wrote:

So basically you're saying that no model willing to work for prints or the images on a disk will ever be as good as a model that takes money instead?
Pretty much all models that arn't looking for pay to you are all less experienced than models looking for pay.

I TF* with models to build our portfolios up and experiment with new styles and ideas, I'm getting from what you're saying that there's absolutely no way that anyone can achieve a great image this way?

Not the case at all. When you meet certain criteria you will find models that normally charge that will shoot TF with you.  It is two professionals that respect each others work and want to create something together.

Christie Gabriel wrote:

Arrgggh!
I'm just going to say it guys:

You are coming off as arrogant because almost any model willing to do TF with you is far more lacking in industry knowledge than most full time pro models who would request pay from you for their time.

So basically it seems you are saying, "it doesn't matter what kind of talent I get in front of the lens because I'm soo awesome that I can make her look like a top-dollar super model."

There I said it.

I'm glad you just gave it to me straight.
There's truth to this,  I am confident that I have some kind of talent but I'm nowhere near the ' make anybody look like a top-dollar supermodel ' level yet.

I take every shoot as a learning experience and I think the reason that I'm unwilling to pay a model is down to the fact that I don't like having a time limit on a shoot. I don't want to know that it'll be over in 2 hours just because that's when the money stops for the model if that happens then I won't be able to relax completely and just experiment with photography, lighting, angles and other components.
I enjoy knowing that the model is getting just as much out of the shoot as I am and if I end up with amazing images when the shoot is finished then I can give them to the model to add to their portfolio. If the only reason a model is there is because she's getting paid then to me I may as well be shooting a mannequin.

Probably doesn't make sense to you and all my haters in this thread but it does to me and when it comes down to it I don't really give a shit that all these people are getting butthurt over the fact that I dislike paying models.

C L A V I C wrote:
I'm glad you just gave it to me straight.
There's truth to this,  I am confident that I have some kind of talent but I'm nowhere near the ' make anybody look like a top-dollar supermodel ' level yet.

I take every shoot as a learning experience and I think the reason that I'm unwilling to pay a model is down to the fact that I don't like having a time limit on a shoot. I don't want to know that it'll be over in 2 hours just because that's when the money stops for the model if that happens then I won't be able to relax completely and just experiment with photography, lighting, angles and other components.
I enjoy knowing that the model is getting just as much out of the shoot as I am and if I end up with amazing images when the shoot is finished then I can give them to the model to add to their portfolio. If the only reason a model is there is because she's getting paid then to me I may as well be shooting a mannequin.

Probably doesn't make sense to you and all my haters in this thread but it does to me and when it comes down to it I don't really give a shit that all these people are getting butthurt over the fact that I dislike paying models.

I think if you changed your first post to this it would have come across as a lot more honest and sincere.  I agree with everything you just said except for what is in bold.

Alicia Hansen Photo wrote:
"Photographers - How often do you pay models? What's the most you've ever paid a model per hour? Was it worth it?"
I've yet to ever pay a model. Not because I don't agree with it, but just because I'm broke and can't afford it. I have models in mind I will GLADLY pay when I can.

How much do you charge if a model is paying you?
Typically $220 for a 3 look, 2-3 hour, shoot. MU, HS, and some wardrobe styling is provided. The model gets 9 final images, and one print for her book.
Every now and then if I like the model's look or travel somewhere such as LA, I discount these rates and charge $160 instead.
...I really should be charging more, I know.

Models - Have you ever paid a photographer? What's the most you've paid and was it worth it?
I double as a model as well, and yes, I have. The most I've paid was $60, and it was for some of the best beauty and fashion I've got in my book on that side of the lens.
(And I got lucky. He has fairly high rates, which are ver reasonable for the quality of his work, but because we'd talked about shooting a while earlier when they were cheaper once upon a time, he was willing to keep them the same for me as we'd once discussed. I'm actually definitely planning on saving up and paying him again, his full rates of course. His work is just amazing.)

How much do you charge per hour?
Depends on the concept, photographer's work quality, and a bunch of other factors.
Normally it's always been around $65-$120 per hour, and I'm most booked for fashion nudes. (Making my shortie height, 5'6", work for me while still sticking to the genre I enjoy most. )

Interesting.... you charge more than you were willing to pay "for some of the best beauty and fashion I've got in my book"  ....

I love it. 

This thread is a keeper

Scott

C L A V I C wrote:

I'm glad you just gave it to me straight.
There's truth to this,  I am confident that I have some kind of talent but I'm nowhere near the ' make anybody look like a top-dollar supermodel ' level yet.

I take every shoot as a learning experience and I think the reason that I'm unwilling to pay a model is down to the fact that I don't like having a time limit on a shoot. I don't want to know that it'll be over in 2 hours just because that's when the money stops for the model if that happens then I won't be able to relax completely and just experiment with photography, lighting, angles and other components.
I enjoy knowing that the model is getting just as much out of the shoot as I am and if I end up with amazing images when the shoot is finished then I can give them to the model to add to their portfolio. If the only reason a model is there is because she's getting paid then to me I may as well be shooting a mannequin.

Probably doesn't make sense to you and all my haters in this thread but it does to me and when it comes down to it I don't really give a shit that all these people are getting butthurt over the fact that I dislike paying models.

Obviously you do give a shit otherwise you wouldn't have posted this thread.

You just have to ask yourself what it will take for you to become the best as you state as your goals in your pf.
Are you going to achieve that shooting TFs all your life?
Are you going to turn down amazing opportunities to learn from top talented models just because you are too cheep to pay?
Are you okay building a bad rep and low respect for refusing to pay models? Because models can see right through this!
And will that mannequin land you a cover shot on Vogue?

TFs are great practice but this is a business. Good models do this for a living, to feed themselves and pay bills and all the ones I know are extremely passionate about their work, they just deserve to be compensated for that talent!

C L A V I C wrote:

I'm glad you just gave it to me straight.
There's truth to this,  I am confident that I have some kind of talent but I'm nowhere near the ' make anybody look like a top-dollar supermodel ' level yet.

I take every shoot as a learning experience and I think the reason that I'm unwilling to pay a model is down to the fact that I don't like having a time limit on a shoot. I don't want to know that it'll be over in 2 hours just because that's when the money stops for the model if that happens then I won't be able to relax completely and just experiment with photography, lighting, angles and other components.

You'll get way more out of that 2 hours with an experienced model (who will more than likely expect monetary compensation) then you would out of a model willing to trade with you.

I enjoy knowing that the model is getting just as much out of the shoot as I am and if I end up with amazing images when the shoot is finished then I can give them to the model to add to their portfolio.

I've been paid for almost 90% of the images in this portfolio. Funny that, huh?

If the only reason a model is there is because she's getting paid then to me I may as well be shooting a mannequin.

I have a background in IT, and worked in software development before taking this on full time. Trust me, I could be making WAY more money doing something other than modeling. Myself, and all the other pro models I know, do this because we're passionate about it, and absolutely love what we do. It's not about the money.

BodyartBabes wrote:
Interesting.... you charge more than you were willing to pay "for some of the best beauty and fashion I've got in my book"  ....

I love it. 

This thread is a keeper

Scott

Where ever did you get that silly assumption that that's all I was willing to pay?
In fact, I said the opposite; Again, I plan to pay that particular photographer again, in full price. That full price is about $450-600, and damn well worth it.

edit:
And just who are you to criticize what I charge anyway?
If I'm able to consistently book work at the rates I've set having spent only $60, aside from the other modeling expenses such as a portfolio book, prints, travel, etc., what does it matter? If anything, it's good that thus far I've made more money than I've invested into it. It's called profit, it's part of business, and it's part of how I work. If you don't like it, too bad. The end.

Christie Gabriel wrote:
Arrgggh!
I'm just going to say it guys:

You are coming off as arrogant because almost any model willing to do TF with you is far more lacking in industry knowledge than most full time pro models who would request pay from you for their time.

So basically it seems you are saying, "it doesn't matter what kind of talent I get in front of the lens because I'm soo awesome that I can make her look like a top-dollar super model."

There I said it.

I don't think it's arrogance.  Most photographers on this site are not full time professional professionals who will benefit from paying for "industry knowledge".  Most of us are amateurs/semi-pros or pros shooting personal projects on the side.  The benefits of hiring a super model or "industry knowledgeable" model as you put it simply don't justify the costs.  The reality is that I can produce an image of almost as good a quality for my needs for a much cheaper price by working with a trade model. For me, the significant cost of hiring a pro model just doesn't justify the marginal return I'll see.  For many seasoned professional photographers who will make good money from a model shoot, it's a different story, but that's not most of us.

The other thing to consider, is that I and many other photographers are not just considering the costs of experienced vs. non experienced models.  We balance the cost of models vs. even more abundant subject matter we can shoot, subject matter that does not charge or require a model release.  While I really love shooting models, for me it's the least lucrative subject to shoot. If I can't shoot models for trade or a reasonably low fee, I'll shoot something else for free and probably make more profit doing so or even shoot shoot non models for a guaranteed pay. 

As I stated before, I'd love to make the money shooting models to regularly pay top dollar for experienced pros, but the reality is the supply and demand for the subject matter of what I can shoot does not support that.

Maybe shooting trade is sometimes about arrogance, but often it's simply the reality of supply and demand.

Stephen Markman wrote:
Not everyone can get the quality of models that they would like, to shoot on a Trade basis.

Not every model can get the photographers with whom they'd like to shoot, to shoot on a Trade basis. 

When exchange of comparable services FAILS, money prevails.

Well said......

When I am approached by a photographer who wants something specific that he/she needs but something I do not need at all, then there is no business benefit for me to TF. And that also works in reverse. But, many photographers who do approach me already have a client and wants to know if I'm interested.

Stephen Markman wrote:
Not everyone can get the quality of models that they would like, to shoot on a Trade basis.

Not every model can get the photographers with whom they'd like to shoot, to shoot on a Trade basis. 

When exchange of comparable services FAILS, money prevails.

DITTO!

C L A V I C wrote:
...I've never paid a model and never will. I just don't see the point when you can get a model that's equal or greater in attractiveness to shoot simply for the images
but that's just me....

From your profile:
"I'll always want to be better and won't even think about stopping untill I'm one of the best

And even then I probably won't stop untill I'm better than the other best Photographers out there."


US rates are fairly irrelevant to the UK.

If you're serious about getting better, you're mad not to pay models when you can work with someone like Rebecca Tun for £30 per hour (rates quoted on her profile, so I'm not revealing any secrets)

MM URL: https://www.modelmayhem.com/beckytun



From your profile:
"It's going to be a f...ing long road but I'm ready for it."

It's going to be a lot longer road if you don't start paying models.
Always try to shoot with people better than you are.

B R U N O wrote:

There is?

Yes...there is.

T-D-L wrote:
Paid a model once....not much, but still paid her.  Was one of the biggest wastes of money ever.  Will I ever do it again?  Doubtful....but you never know.  I'm a lot less likely to do it now after that experience.

Maybe it was how you utilized the product.

Art Silva Photography wrote:
This whole discussion has become a big slap in the face to a lot of talented and deserving models on MM... Happy now?

Happens every time the topic is raised... but, business is still going... slap on folks

Jessica Vaugn  wrote:

Happens every time the topic is raised... but, business is still going... slap on folks

True hun but the OP needs to realize that you learn to grow by working with the best if he wants to BE the best.

I don't make a great income with my day job and I should be saving money for retirement or something but I am happy to pay for great talent that will help me grow as an artist. After 35 years behind the camera I still feel like I have a lot to learn.
There is two different schools of thought on this but mine is about the return of great images, not the return of invested money.

Jessica Vaugn  wrote:

Maybe it was how you utilized the product.

Or maybe she just sucked ass as a model.....

JoshuaDavisPhotography wrote:
I've never paid a model out of my own money

There is evidence visible that indicates that statement might not be 100% accurate.

Jessica Vaugn  wrote:
business is still going... slap on folks

You're into that? 

B R U N O wrote:
Regardless of the fact that there are a lot of attractive people who can't and don't photograph well, there are just as many who are attractive and do photograph well.

Then by that statement you agree that simply being attractive is not sufficient for success in front of a camera.

exartica wrote:
You're into that? 

Why no, I am a delicate flower

T-D-L wrote:

Or maybe she just sucked ass as a model.....

My thoughts lead me to asking how you were unable to detect this ahead of time... If I'm booking a model I'm booking a proven model.

Jessica Vaugn  wrote:
My thoughts lead me to asking how you were unable to detect this ahead of time... If I'm booking a model I'm booking a proven model.

I was a noob; I'll admit that much.  Only asked one other photographer about her.....she got a glowing reference from them.  Then she turned out to be borderline psycho on top of just sucking as a model. 

Should've asked around more, I'll agree to that....but it doesn't change the fact that she still sucked, still gave me much trouble after the shoot, and still is the reason why if I ever needed to go back to MM for models I would seriously think twice about paying.

My advice to noobs is: If you can afford to pay a model, ask around and check references, then pay.  It'll probably jumpstart your book if you know what you're doing.  But if you can't afford to do so, don't sweat it.  Work your ass off trading with the bottom of the barrel and work your way up to where you want to be.  It'll take a hell of a lot longer but is rewarding nonetheless

Happy Birthday btw in case I forget to tag your page soon