Tog wrote:
The snag, as I see it, is that these rates are never posted.  ...

Your thoughts on this?

This because such "standard" rates just do not exist. A range of acceptable, and practical**, rates dependent on genre? Maybe; London weighting if they live there? Maybe; Help with travel if they are coming to you from Land's End on the one hand or John O'Groats on the other? Maybe; But "standard" rates? No.

If, however, you are working for a "client" then you should have a budget, which, then, is a more or less take-it-or-leave-it rate to be offered to the model, and that leaves little for negotiation around what the model "thinks" their "standard rate" should be.

Simples!

Studio36

** NOTE: Acceptable and practical rates usually reflect what others are successfully charging, AND GETTING, for the equivalent genre of work.

Example: Model 1 > 5 each quote you between £30 and 45 / hour for some particular kind of work. And you are willing to pay, and have paid, that = Acceptable and practical rates as far as YOU are concerned.

Model 6 comes along with a rate of £100+ / hr. for the same kind of work? NOT an Acceptable and practical rate

theda wrote:
I don't post rates because too many variable go into quoting a job.  Most full-time models who say their rates are "standard" have a base rate of about $100/hour (+/-25), which will go up or down depending on what you want and your budget. 

There's no harm in deciding what you think the service is working and making an offer. It's your money and ultimately, you'll set the rate for your project.

This was actually more about the complaint I was seeing about models having photogs try to argue their rates are bad.  Well, if you force the photog to engage you in conversation before they know what you're asking you've opened the door for it.  (Catch-22)

I don't have a personal opinion one way or the other.  Sometimes I'll pay rates, sometimes I won't.  I even tend to appreciate traveling models who hit me with driveby mails on their rates and availability as it's kind of a rarity out here in the sticks.

I was going to drop this after realizing I'd accidentally posted it in the photographer forum. 

Orcatek Photography wrote:
According to the Department of Labor the average earnings for models is under $15 per hour, so that must be the standard.

There is no standard.  Just as there is not standard rate for photographers.

Even when models post rates, they will often give a better rate for a project they want to do.

Why "must" it be the standard?  Modeling jobs vary from casual looks to pornography.

Rebecca Lawrence wrote:

Why "must" it be the standard?  Modeling jobs vary from casual looks to pornography.

*waves*

Rebecca Lawrence wrote:
Why "must" it be the standard?  Modeling jobs vary from casual looks to pornography.

And, take our word for it, the photographers know that and adjust for it to one degree or another. The usual case is that the photographer already knows, or at least has some idea, what the work is worth in the marketplace. It is unlikely, if they already know that, that they are going to pay a model a higher rate than the work is actually worth, in order to make a loss.

Bidness is bidness.

Studio36

liddellphoto wrote:
The rates that are quoted to photogs probably vary depending on who is asking

So much of this.

I prefer to have a prospective look at my portfolio and suggest a rate given that images will be part of the deal.  If she is willing to go as low as $0/hr, then she's hired.

If a given model's rate is $50/hr, no matter what, I won't be working with her.  Could be my loss, could be hers, could be both.

Tog wrote:
The snag, as I see it, is that these rates are never posted.  I don't know how other photographers view this, but what the cynic in me sees when I read this is, "I have no idea what standard rates are because no one will post them.  I am going to try to negotiate as much money out of you as I can."

i can only view posting rates from my perspective in seeking being hired.  i would never do it.

first, my rates are assignment based.  i suspect models who don't post rates do the same.  granted, there are those who just don't know what to charge, but those who do are smart to not give rates without knowing whether the assignment is for personal or commercial application.

let's say for example a model has a rate posted of (x) per hour.  that might work for a photographer wishing to add a professional-level model to the portfolio.  it does not work for the photographer who has a client that want's vertical market exclusivity for the model.  thus, the rate assumption given in the profile is good at one level, bad on another and the best practice is to simply state rates are negotiable.

as for trying to negotiate as much as possible, nothing wrong with that.  it's how the business world turns every bit as much as the other party negotiating paying as little as possible.

theda wrote:
I don't post rates because too many variable go into quoting a job.  Most full-time models who say their rates are "standard" have a base rate of about $100/hour (+/-25), which will go up or down depending on what you want and your budget. 

There's no harm in deciding what you think the service is working and making an offer. It's your money and ultimately, you'll set the rate for your project.

the above quote is from a NY ciyt model, where rent is $1000+ and the cost of living is high. in backwoods Hobunk, $15p/hr is seen as good money. Standard rates are more about location. Ask traveling models they will tell you.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I prefer it when models post their rates, so I know right away if we are compatible.

I think one reason many don't post their rates is they want the freedom to negotiate each offer and don't want to be tied to posted rates, and yes, that will mean dealing with offers wont' doesn't want.

I also think there is often a huge difference between what models often post as their rates and what they accept.  An even bigger difference between what the vocal, successful models claim as their rates in the rate threads and what statistics indicate those who hire models actually pay them.

This is true. When I start throwing out my dollar mounts, people back off or those that seem used to paying them book me so idk. I like to know a photographers budget before we proceed because his budget might not be something I can negotiate but I they to work with everyone who displays interest.

Al Cooley Photography wrote:
the above quote is from a NY ciyt model, where rent is $1000+ and the cost of living is high. in backwoods Hobunk, $15p/hr is seen as good money. Standard rates are more about location. Ask traveling models they will tell you.

Toronto is expensive too...

Al Cooley Photography wrote:

the above quote is from a NY ciyt model, where rent is $1000+ and the cost of living is high. in backwoods Hobunk, $15p/hr is seen as good money. Standard rates are more about location. Ask traveling models they will tell you.

I'm a traveling nude model and yes, rates vary by location.  Within a deviation of $25 with $100 as a standard amount.  $15/h might be okay for a local girl in the middle of nowhere to work for a small designer's Etsy shop.  For nude work, $15/h is within an acceptable range for painting and drawing, but its laughable for photography.

Rebecca Lawrence wrote:

I'm a traveling nude model and yes, rates vary by location.  Within a deviation of $25 with $100 as a standard amount.  $15/h might be okay for a local girl in the middle of nowhere to work for a small designer's Etsy shop.  For nude work, $15/h is within an acceptable range for painting and drawing, but its laughable for photography.

Agree. I'd rather be asked to do it for free or tf than for a lowball offer like that.. I find it insulting. I'd rather be asked to collaborate then work for 20 an hour.

Al Cooley Photography wrote:
the above quote is from a NY ciyt model, where rent is $1000+ and the cost of living is high. in backwoods Hobunk, $15p/hr is seen as good money. Standard rates are more about location. Ask traveling models they will tell you.

quoting rates in definitive is incorrect.  a model doing a national campaign for coca-cola is not compensated based on their location/cost of living, it's based on the assignment.

theda wrote:
I don't post rates because too many variable go into quoting a job.  Most full-time models who say their rates are "standard" have a base rate of about $100/hour (+/-25), which will go up or down depending on what you want and your budget. 

There's no harm in deciding what you think the service is working and making an offer. It's your money and ultimately, you'll set the rate for your project.

Maybe expierenced full time nude models base it on $100/hr but that isn't the norm for models.  I think photographers get annoyed when they get a $100/hr quote from someone who, well let's just say isn't in you league Theda.

I think new models hear about this average traveling model rate and think that is what they should get while not having any real understanding why you are worth that much.

I don't generally shoot nudes, but down here I would not expect agency models to get $100/hr let alone a freelance Internet model.  That is the problem with rates and online discussions, people from all over the world take part in them and it's a very regional topic.

AJScalzitti wrote:

Maybe expierenced full time nude models base it on $100/hr but that isn't the norm for models.  I think photographers get annoyed when they get a $100/hr quote from someone who, well let's just say isn't in you league Theda.

I think new models hear about this average traveling model rate and think that is what they should get while not having any real understanding why you are worth that much.

I don't generally shoot nudes, but down here I would not expect agency models to get $100/hr let alone a freelance Internet model.  That is the problem with rates and online discussions, people from all over the world take part in them and it's a very regional topic.

When I was in Atlanta two weeks ago, I got eighteen such hours on a 3 1/2 day trip.  Typical trip to Atlanta...

Orcatek Photography wrote:
There is no standard.  Just as there is not standard rate for photographers.

Even when models post rates, they will often give a better rate for a project they want to do.

I just did a shoot for a client where I hired five models for them. All but one were models who responded to a casting call we posted. I didn't even know it until after the shoot but two of them had MM profiles quoting their hourly prices and we happened to have booked them for around 2/3 of their minimum rate. If you find a model who is quoting $$$ and you are only budgeted for $$, contact them anyway. The worse thing they can say is "no" in which case you're right back to where you started from anyway. However, they can always say "yes" to but you'd never know until you ask.

And yes, I've noticed Photographers are no different in this respect too.

Beautiful Sundays wrote:

Toronto is expensive too...

Plus fucking one.

eekimelphoto wrote:
Artists I know traditionally charge a sliding scale. A job that pays X for client/patron A may charge X+2 for client/patron B.

You can always offer what you feel is appropriate or in your budget. If a model says "no" then that's fine, just as if you ask their rates you can say "no" or counter.

^This

Some models don't post their rates because they don't want to scare off potential clients that they would be willing to negotiate with.  It's not necessarily "I don't know what to charge," but more of based on their work they may either charge more or less.

Also to note just because a model has rates posted it doesn't necessarily mean they are set in stone.  Everyone is free to negotiate, and everyone is free to either accept or decline.

AJScalzitti wrote:
So exactly my point Rebecca, an good experienced nude model can get $100/hr without much difficulty.

Depends on the region the model is working in, and the economic climate of that region at any given time. It changes back and forth, based on the types of jobs that are available and the saturation of models in that particular market. For example, in 2010, I was lucky to make $35-50/hour for basic art nude modeling jobs, and there seemed to be almost no fetish video work (which is generally higher paying) available in my area. However, THIS year, I had no problem getting fetish content shoots, and therefore earning an average of $100+ per hour. The few art modeling gigs I did get still only paid around $35-$50/hour, so I lived mostly on fetish vid work during 2011 - but that work (for assorted reasons) was suddenly available again.

In 2010, I barely got by, and had to work part-time in strip clubs, due to lack of bookings that year. In 2011, in the very same market area, I did really well for myself.

Lots of factors for pulling in $100/hour. It's not as easy as being "good" or being "experienced." That only has a little bit to do with it.

Tog wrote:
This isn't a rant.  Another nearby thread got me thinking and I didn't want to derail it.  I'd be curious to hear your thoughts so I figured I'd ask.

The complaint was, "Why do photographers complain about my rates?"

What I see frequently are statements on portfolios that TFP is not done and that model X charges reasonable and standard rates.

The snag, as I see it, is that these rates are never posted.  I don't know how other photographers view this, but what the cynic in me sees when I read this is, "I have no idea what standard rates are because no one will post them.  I am going to try to negotiate as much money out of you as I can." 

Now, that may be perfectly reasonable, I understand everyone has to make a living, etc., but it's creating a catch-22.

If you don't like the reactions of photographers who won't pay your rates, and yet you won't actually tell them what your rates are until they've already engaged you in conversation...  You see the conflict here?

If your rates were posted, those who weren't willing to pay would at least have an opportunity to see up-front that you're out of their ballpark and move on.  (I'm not saying this would happen in every case, but it would at least filter some of it.)

Your thoughts on this?

Look it has never happened that a photographer has offered me more than my going rate (though have had generous tips) but frequently design houses and advertising agencies etc do. I am not going to post my rates on my profile page if they are happy to pay me more. Sometimes it's a lot more. Sometimes it is less but it's an amazing gig or one you get lots of free products for.

Happy to post it in the forums though. £145 a day whether it is one hour or 10. Most photographers think that fair; never had one who baulked at it.

Some ask me why I charge a day rate not an hour one. Simples. If I shoot for an hour it means I can't work a whole day for someone else should the opportunity arise. So if I take a job I require a day's basic pay. Most suddenly want to shoot for 10 hours not the one or two they asked for and seem happy

Also; I am happy to work withing a 150 mile radius for that + travel expenses but if I am shooting in Norway , Scotland , Ireland or France of course I will require more because the travel means it will cost me the day before or next day's work.

GeorgeMann wrote:
... I think it is partially because I am fair with their compensation requests.

I agree, you have that down

CarlottaChampagne wrote:
if you insult me or my people (that's for you, photographer who told me Jews ruined Christmas)

It amazes me what people say in mixed company, even if its a joke. Geeze!