Tony Lawrence wrote:
I can see it now.   Model flakes on a paid shoot.   Asked later she says, her grandmother passed.   Someone who know her says but I thought you were adopted.   Any company casting a model from this site deserves whatever happens.   You want real models go to agencies.

In general, I would agree that better results are done by using pros but lets be candid how many working pro models are here.   This is a site where pro models feel that ditching on a job is fine if another that pays more comes along.   Lets also be frank there are few models on MM that any real world fashion or commercial agency would sign.   This is largely a hobby site with some working photographers and fewer agency signed or pro models.   This ideal that paying someone $100.00 or more per hour for images that can't sell even as stock or gallery work for non existent buyers is a farce.

Photographers who do so just have the bucks to do so.   Those, I've seen who have tend to not have better images then those who don't in fact most of those who don't pay are better photographers.   Rather then even respect those that pay many of the models here call them suckers...  I mean GWC.

Sooo, based on this post with MM being just a hobbie site and all and you being on it, you must not be a "real" photographer, and any client deserves what may happen if they book you, oh and they should not pay you based on the quality, skill or style of your work because all photographers are created equal and all should get x amount of dollars? And if you are getting burned so bad that you think every model flakes maybe you should start checking references first. Just saying....plenty of skilled people on both ends get paid for being who they are and how good they are at what they do, and less skilled get less period, thats how the world has always worked in all trades.  And btw there are agency girls on here as well. 

Photographers:  Do you charge girls portfolio "updates" at the same rate?  Do you post it on your profile or websites?  Can you honestly say you would charge the same for every girl?  Are you going to get the same quality out of them all?  The same amount of editing, the same amount of shots/poses to get that one you need?  You wouldnt post it on your profile because the inexperienced "model" down the street could be charged more so you wouldnt want her to see it and you know it.  Come on guys seriously,  some girls will always think they are worth more than they are and the same goes for photographers.

Jessie Shannon wrote:
And btw there are agency girls on here as well.

listen to them.  they don't base rates on just the pleasure of having their picture taken.  there's a method to the madness beyond that.  this thread gives proof to how many don't realize that...or there simply isn't another option.

291 wrote:

listen to them.  they don't base rates on just the pleasure of having their picture taken.  there's a method to the madness beyond that.  this thread gives proof to how many don't realize that...or there simply isn't another option.

^^

Jessie Shannon wrote:

Sooo, based on this post with MM being just a hobbie site and all and you being on it, you must not be a "real" photographer, and any client deserves what may happen if they book you, oh and they should not pay you based on the quality, skill or style of your work because all photographers are created equal and all should get x amount of dollars? And if you are getting burned so bad that you think every model flakes maybe you should start checking references first. Just saying....plenty of skilled people on both ends get paid for being who they are and how good they are at what they do, and less skilled get less period, thats how the world has always worked in all trades.  And btw there are agency girls on here as well. 

Photographers:  Do you charge girls portfolio "updates" at the same rate?  Do you post it on your profile or websites?  Can you honestly say you would charge the same for every girl?  Are you going to get the same quality out of them all?  The same amount of editing, the same amount of shots/poses to get that one you need?  You wouldnt post it on your profile because the inexperienced "model" down the street could be charged more so you wouldnt want her to see it and you know it.  Come on guys seriously,  some girls will always think they are worth more than they are and the same goes for photographers.

I am a hobby shooter.   I have made that clear over and over.   I will however repeat this.   Any real world client who books models from MM and has them flake shouldn't be surprised.   You don't hire models from sites like this if you have a real budget.   You go to real world agencies.   As for flakes, I'm never really disappointed by MM models because I never make plans around them actually showing.   If, I have a shoot I want two at, I'll try and book eight and maybe two will actually show.   I'm, I wrong?   Based on the endless and frequent posts about model flakes by my fellow photographers, I'd say no.   

Look there are some excellent and reliable models here.   There also hard to find as to your point about agency models here, yes a few but I see those usually near the end of their careers here or models who don't book much with their agencies or those with smaller boutique level agencies.   I don't see many from Ford or LA Models, DNA or Elite.   Back to my point.   If you want real models and can afford them then go to real world agencies.    That's why they exist.

CarlottaChampagne wrote:
My rates are posted in my portfolio-they are pretty standard for a model in high demand. Everything is negotiable though, and IF I LIKE someone and want to work with them a second time sometimes I'll offered lowered rates to repeat bookers. This does have a lot of variables though, the main one being if they were fun to work with the first time around.. if you insult me or my people (that's for you, photographer who told me Jews ruined Christmas) I won't consider lowering the rate.

This is a nice courtesy to list the rates or at least guidelines.

As to the photographer who thought "Jews ruined Christmas," one wonders what he's smoking. Or snorting.

theda wrote:
I don't post rates because too many variable go into quoting a job.  Most full-time models who say their rates are "standard" have a base rate of about $100/hour (+/-25), which will go up or down depending on what you want and your budget. 

There's no harm in deciding what you think the service is working and making an offer. It's your money and ultimately, you'll set the rate for your project.

This is what I see and get, to replies from Models. Yet some have been less the same work.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

I am a hobby shooter.   I have made that clear over and over.   I will however repeat this.   Any real world client who books models from MM and has them flake shouldn't be surprised.   You don't hire models from sites like this if you have a real budget.   You go to real world agencies.   As for flakes, I'm never really disappointed by MM models because I never make plans around them actually showing.   If, I have a shoot I want two at, I'll try and book eight and maybe two will actually show.   I'm, I wrong?   Based on the endless and frequent posts about model flakes by my fellow photographers, I'd say no.   

Look there are some excellent and reliable models here.   There also hard to find as to your point about agency models here, yes a few but I see those usually near the end of their careers here or models who don't book much with their agencies or those with smaller boutique level agencies.   I don't see many from Ford or LA Models, DNA or Elite.   Back to my point.   If you want real models and can afford them then go to real world agencies.    That's why they exist.

First paragraph, not WRONG at all..  Some here are "No Shows" for paid work... SMH....

Second paragraph, I will pursue with future projects....

manchester wrote:
Your $100/hour while travelling covers:

Gas - to drive to you
Car insurance - to drive to you legally
Phone bill - to call you
Vehicle maitenence/wear and tear/mileage - to arrive to you
Food - to eat, to survive
Bills at home - because I have one
Wardrobe I bring - to fill those 3 suitcases I show up with, so that you can shoot something interesting and unique, and since I am not often hired for art nudes due to my tattoos
Makeup I provide - so that I look better than when I roll out of bed
Makeup skills, as a trained MUA- so you don't have to hire one - so that I look better than other models without MU skills
Model skills - to make your photos better
My look - which is why we are all individually hired, based on a photographer's taste and preferences
My time, both in front of the camera and driving to you
Maitnence, on my look (hair, nails, etc) - so that I look good

and HOPEFULLY, after all that, so that I may actually have some money leftover of my own to actually ENJOY in my off time for all my hard work, or put away as SAVINGS!!

It takes a heck of a lot more money to be a independent contractor/freelance hustler in a highly specialized and skilled job than it does to work a 20/hour EMPLOYED wage-job that any ol' joe who looks like anything, can walk in off the street, apply for and receive paid training for, with regular, consistent hours, that your company foots all the expenses and supplies for you to DO that job, except perhaps your work uniform and non-slip shoes... Oh, and those workers also get to return home to their families every night when they clock out, whereas I go weeks and months without seeing mine.

Though, understandably, not every shooter can AFFORD my rate -
but any shooter who doesn't even UNDERSTAND why I must charge what I do? This is someone I don't plan on trying to explain myself to, or continuing to correspond any further with. And no sweat off my back, I just move along!!

Very well said.

I must point out to those that complain relentelessly they are booking flaky models, unprofessional ones and ones they say give ridiculous rates that perhaps the photographers themselves hereare partly respsonsible.

Many photographers here by the very fact they need to be told by Manchester, Madam Kitty myself etc etc what professional models do clearly do not understand what a pro model is.

Some think they are such good photographers (and indeed some actually are) that they can make any pretty girl look amazing in images and give them a portfolio. So they don't actually need professional models. That's fine; but when you create girls then that think they ARE models and deserve massive recompense for their big boobs or pretty smile , and of course often aren't available because they have other jobs; then why the surprise? In the search for new faces remember that such faces don't have experience. They don't know and don't care that they represent a body of professional and dedicated amateur models. They just want money. and that is partly the fault of the photographers who imply to them that their images can facilitate this if they shoot with them.

These girls are not models.

What I suggest if you really want professional models with professional standards is
1. yes book a model from an Agency by all means. It can cost you anything from the high hundreds to a few thousand.
2. For those not on that budget you have a range orf online sites like this with plenty of professional models - some are Agency signed; some are specialised character/acting/promo etc Agency signed; and some are not signed but are nevertheles working professionals. All are much less expensive than an Agency booked model. Then there are very good enthusiastic amateurs and those genuinely trying to assemble a portfolio to get established. Then there are the ones you guys have created through thinkling you can get away without booking pro models. The ones that now have great photos and look like they are models.

Naturally those of us not agency signed there is a reason. There are three main types of Agencies. Fashion, Glamour, and local. The third books lifestyle mag shoots; local boutique work etc etc. The model gets paid a low rate and the work is scarce. So they try to maket themselves and sometimes dispence with the Agency or their port remains but they don't get regular work. If you want to work and are not 5ft 10 and size 6 for fashion; or 34 E for glamour; you have to market yourself. But you don't need a 5ft 10 model for a fashion shoot do you? You aren't going to send them down a catwalk and your skills should make us look 10ft tall. And you do not want a glamour model to do fine art nude.

But that does not mean we do not work. I won't get agency work (except the local) because I don't fit the bill. BUT I am reliable and professional and up until this year where I have taken on a PhD was working full time; booked virtually every day. That is NOT difficult somewhere like London.

This is how it works. A designer or boutique books four models for an event. Maybe they want to put them in their shop window, do a fashion show for their clients, or do a trade show. They boook ONE Agency model at £2k for the day trhen want thre that will cost them a few hundred. so why on earth would we put a low rate on our profile when they are willing to pay us not what the agency girl earns but certainly more than photographers generally payaround here! Sometimes an event can go on for a week. Sometimes (as with me at AP) it can lead to semi permanent or regular work. Fitting modelling ion particular is a great gig and leads to some wonderful spin off work.

Then we have the Art work. You never get an artist (not renowned for being wealthy) asking a model to work TF or challenging the models rate. yes sometimes - especially with Art institutions, there is a going rate. Sometimes that is less than what our posted rates may be so again we can't post the rate or they will be put off. Yes I am happy to take 10 weeks of every wednesday evening for £50 for two hours plus a free dinner plus wine and then get given original artwork frequently. I am not going to take that for a photographer because it will be a one off two hours and is very likely to cost me the 10 week job. BUT if I am free on the day it is worth asking. If you have a budget and that's it and I am free you may get me. So don't be afraid to negotiate but don't get offended if we say no because now you know why.

Then some models do promotional work so when you are trying to book them at £12 an hour remeber they are aware if they say yes then suddenly they get three weeks solid work in a department store promoting a perfume at £150 a day they are going to have to flake on you or turn down very lucrative work.

Then there are girls who act, dance, perform stilt walking or trapeze etc etc and all those jobs are likely to be more than just a two hour gig. So they take a risk if they take a two hour booking; so have to be adequately paid for that risk. They are going to charge you quite rightly a days pay for a days work. Again I would suggest mnegotiating on the time. If a girl is travelling tow hours to you and two hours back then she may as well shoot for six hours as shoot for one - so don't knoock the time down make it longer but offer a little less if you must. Most of us will consider proposals and if we say no we mean it. We WON'T be sitting watching judge Judy instead unless we are absolutely knackered.

Now a professional model as Manchester says is going to liase with the photographer so they know exactly what he has in mind for his vision. She is likely to make suggestions, try to source wardrobe if they haven't got, refer you to other photographers work for inspiration and discussion etc. Then she turns up well prepared, cases full of wardrobe and knowing what you want to do. They will NOT flake.

How do you find these models? use your head! See who they have worked with, ALWAYS ask for references as you would with any other job offer, ask around. Failing that if your initial discussions are only discussing money and not your project something is wrong.

END of duscussion. If you are getting flakey models here ask yourself why because I am pretty sure that the vast majority of models here that I know or have excellent profiles that demonstrate what they can do rather than how pretty they look in a swimsuit are NOT going to flake and are going to be the best investment you can make for your project.

Yes there are lots of the wannabes-for-lots-of-money and the ones that just want to tell their friends they are models but freak, out or whose boyfriend freaks out, or they can't get the day off work if they actually get booked. But use  your head they are not difficult to differentiate from the pros here.

Eliza C wrote:

Very well said.

I must point out to those that complain relentelessly they are booking flaky models, unprofessional ones and ones they say give ridiculous rates that perhaps the photographers themselves hereare partly respsonsible.

Many photographers here by the very fact they need to be told by Manchester, Madam Kitty myself etc etc what professional models do clearly do not understand what a pro model is.

Some think they are such good photographers (and indeed some actually are) that they can make any pretty girl look amazing in images and give them a portfolio. So they don't actually need professional models. That's fine; but when you create girls then that think they ARE models and deserve massive recompense for their big boobs or pretty smile , and of course often aren't available because they have other jobs; then why the surprise? In the search for new faces remember that such faces don't have experience. They don't know and don't care that they represent a body of professional and dedicated amateur models. They just want money. and that is partly the fault of the photographers who imply to them that their images can facilitate this if they shoot with them.

These girls are not models.

What I suggest if you really want professional models with professional standards is
1. yes book a model from an Agency by all means. It can cost you anything from the high hundreds to a few thousand.
2. For those not on that budget you have a range orf online sites like this with plenty of professional models - some are Agency signed; some are specialised character/acting/promo etc Agency signed; and some are not signed but are nevertheles working professionals. All are much less expensive than an Agency booked model. Then there are very good enthusiastic amateurs and those genuinely trying to assemble a portfolio to get established. Then there are the ones you guys have created through thinkling you can get away without booking pro models. The ones that now have great photos and look like they are models.

Naturally those of us not agency signed there is a reason. There are three main types of Agencies. Fashion, Glamour, and local. The third books lifestyle mag shoots; local boutique work etc etc. The model gets paid a low rate and the work is scarce. So they try to maket themselves and sometimes dispence with the Agency or their port remains but they don't get regular work. If you want to work and are not 5ft 10 and size 6 for fashion; or 34 E for glamour; you have to market yourself. But you don't need a 5ft 10 model for a fashion shoot do you? You aren't going to send them down a catwalk and your skills should make us look 10ft tall. And you do not want a glamour model to do fine art nude.

But that does not mean we do not work. I won't get agency work (except the local) because I don't fit the bill. BUT I am reliable and professional and up until this year where I have taken on a PhD was working full time; booked virtually every day. That is NOT difficult somewhere like London.

This is how it works. A designer or boutique books four models for an event. Maybe they want to put them in their shop window, do a fashion show for their clients, or do a trade show. They boook ONE Agency model at £2k for the day trhen want thre that will cost them a few hundred. so why on earth would we put a low rate on our profile when they are willing to pay us not what the agency girl earns but certainly more than photographers generally payaround here! Sometimes an event can go on for a week. Sometimes (as with me at AP) it can lead to semi permanent or regular work. Fitting modelling ion particular is a great gig and leads to some wonderful spin off work.

Then we have the Art work. You never get an artist (not renowned for being wealthy) asking a model to work TF or challenging the models rate. yes sometimes - especially with Art institutions, there is a going rate. Sometimes that is less than what our posted rates may be so again we can't post the rate or they will be put off. Yes I am happy to take 10 weeks of every wednesday evening for £50 for two hours plus a free dinner plus wine and then get given original artwork frequently. I am not going to take that for a photographer because it will be a one off two hours and is very likely to cost me the 10 week job. BUT if I am free on the day it is worth asking. If you have a budget and that's it and I am free you may get me. So don't be afraid to negotiate but don't get offended if we say no because now you know why.

Then some models do promotional work so when you are trying to book them at £12 an hour remeber they are aware if they say yes then suddenly they get three weeks solid work in a department store promoting a perfume at £150 a day they are going to have to flake on you or turn down very lucrative work.

Then there are girls who act, dance, perform stilt walking or trapeze etc etc and all those jobs are likely to be more than just a two hour gig. So they take a risk if they take a two hour booking; so have to be adequately paid for that risk. They are going to charge you quite rightly a days pay for a days work. Again I would suggest mnegotiating on the time. If a girl is travelling tow hours to you and two hours back then she may as well shoot for six hours as shoot for one - so don't knoock the time down make it longer but offer a little less if you must. Most of us will consider proposals and if we say no we mean it. We WON'T be sitting watching judge Judy instead unless we are absolutely knackered.

Now a professional model as Manchester says is going to liase with the photographer so they know exactly what he has in mind for his vision. She is likely to make suggestions, try to source wardrobe if they haven't got, refer you to other photographers work for inspiration and discussion etc. Then she turns up well prepared, cases full of wardrobe and knowing what you want to do. They will NOT flake.

How do you find these models? use your head! See who they have worked with, ALWAYS ask for references as you would with any other job offer, ask around. Failing that if your initial discussions are only discussing money and not your project something is wrong.

END of duscussion. If you are getting flakey models here ask yourself why because I am pretty sure that the vast majority of models here that I know or have excellent profiles that demonstrate what they can do rather than how pretty they look in a swimsuit are NOT going to flake and are going to be the best investment you can make for your project.

Yes there are lots of the wannabes-for-lots-of-money and the ones that just want to tell their friends they are models but freak, out or whose boyfriend freaks out, or they can't get the day off work if they actually get booked. But use  your head they are not difficult to differentiate from the pros here.

Your post is excellent!  It covers everything.

Rebecca Lawrence wrote:
I'm a traveling nude model and yes, rates vary by location.  Within a deviation of $25 with $100 as a standard amount.  $15/h might be okay for a local girl in the middle of nowhere to work for a small designer's Etsy shop.  For nude work, $15/h is within an acceptable range for painting and drawing, but its laughable for photography.

For YOU $15 is "Laughable."  But there are models who make $7.50/hr in their day jobs, and a client/photographer would probably would get less quality results in $100 worth of $15/hr modeling than you do in $100 worth of $100/hr modeling.  So why would someone pay them more?

Al Cooley Photography wrote:
the above quote is from a NY ciyt model, where rent is $1000+ and the cost of living is high. in backwoods Hobunk, $15p/hr is seen as good money. Standard rates are more about location. Ask traveling models they will tell you.

291 wrote:
quoting rates in definitive is incorrect.  a model doing a national campaign for coca-cola is not compensated based on their location/cost of living, it's based on the assignment.

How often does a model in "Hobunk," or Allendale, or for that matter Michigan, get hired for a Coca Cola ad?  Model FROM Michigan, maybe.  But that's different.

ShivaKitty wrote:
Several years ago, it used to be more common for models to post rates on their profiles. I used to see it all the time, but now, rarely see rates posted anymore.

I prefer discussing compensation on a case-by-case basis, since all jobs are different, to some degree.

It also seems like it used to be more common (3 or 4 years ago), for internet-based models to charge on a sliding scale, specific to the content they were shooting - for example, more for nude work, and less for bikini, or whatever. I think that has changed a lot, due to photographer forum rants on "stripper rates."  Many of us now work on a flat fee system, regardless of nudity.

Trends come and go.

I know that when I paid more often, I typically passed on models who said they had "standard and reasonable rates" since "standard rates" tends to mean $100/hr, and EVERYONE thinks their rates are "reasonable."  Sometimes, I later found out those models had much lower rates, which I would have been willing to pay.

Art of the nude wrote:

For YOU $15 is "Laughable."  But there are models who make $7.50/hr in their day jobs, and a client/photographer would probably would get less quality results in $100 worth of $15/hr modeling than you do in $100 worth of $100/hr modeling.  So why would someone pay them more?

So they don't get flakes.

Art of the nude wrote:

Al Cooley Photography wrote:
the above quote is from a NY ciyt model, where rent is $1000+ and the cost of living is high. in backwoods Hobunk, $15p/hr is seen as good money. Standard rates are more about location. Ask traveling models they will tell you.

How often does a model in "Hobunk," or Allendale, or for that matter Michigan, get hired for a Coca Cola ad?  Model FROM Michigan, maybe.  But that's different.

WTF is it with coca cola? I didn't become a model to work for coca cola. I live 4 hours from London but I still get work there. But not at $15 an hour that wouldn't pay for lunch in London.

Art of the nude wrote:
For YOU $15 is "Laughable."  But there are models who make $7.50/hr in their day jobs, and a client/photographer would probably would get less quality results in $100 worth of $15/hr modeling than you do in $100 worth of $100/hr modeling.  So why would someone pay them more?

Eliza C wrote:
So they don't get flakes.

I'm not questioning why to pay SOMEONE more.  I'm saying why pay the model who asks $15 more?  $15 is more than 99% of 20 year olds in Michigan make; people will show up for that.

I've been to London.  $15/hr in Allendale is a BETTER pay than £20/hr in London, even though currency conversions says it's half as much.  With travel costs, $15/hr might be better than £30/hr in London.  Allendale is 80 miles from me.  The round trip is three hours and about $20.

Art of the nude wrote:
How often does a model in "Hobunk," or Allendale, or for that matter Michigan, get hired for a Coca Cola ad?  Model FROM Michigan, maybe.  But that's different.

Eliza C wrote:
WTF is it with coca cola? I didn't become a model to work for coca cola. I live 4 hours from London but I still get work there. But not at $15 an hour that wouldn't pay for lunch in London.

291 likes to make references to agency rate structures; makes him feel better than us.  He just doesn't seem to understand when it is, and isn't, relevant.

Jessie Shannon wrote:

Sooo, based on this post with MM being just a hobbie site and all and you being on it, you must not be a "real" photographer, and any client deserves what may happen if they book you, oh and they should not pay you based on the quality, skill or style of your work because all photographers are created equal and all should get x amount of dollars? And if you are getting burned so bad that you think every model flakes maybe you should start checking references first. Just saying....plenty of skilled people on both ends get paid for being who they are and how good they are at what they do, and less skilled get less period, thats how the world has always worked in all trades.  And btw there are agency girls on here as well. 

Photographers:  Do you charge girls portfolio "updates" at the same rate?  Do you post it on your profile or websites?  Can you honestly say you would charge the same for every girl?  Are you going to get the same quality out of them all?  The same amount of editing, the same amount of shots/poses to get that one you need?  You wouldnt post it on your profile because the inexperienced "model" down the street could be charged more so you wouldnt want her to see it and you know it.  Come on guys seriously,  some girls will always think they are worth more than they are and the same goes for photographers.

At this point I am not charging models, I simply am too busy to book work that doesn't interest me. I am also not paying models because I don't have the requisite return on investment. I don't have to make money but I can't afford to lose money either.

And it's the photographers job to get good results regardless of the models experience level.

manchester wrote:
Your $100/hour while travelling covers:

Gas - to drive to you
Car insurance - to drive to you legally
Phone bill - to call you
Vehicle maitenence/wear and tear/mileage - to arrive to you
Food - to eat, to survive
Bills at home - because I have one
Wardrobe I bring - to fill those 3 suitcases I show up with, so that you can shoot something interesting and unique, and since I am not often hired for art nudes due to my tattoos
Makeup I provide - so that I look better than when I roll out of bed
Makeup skills, as a trained MUA- so you don't have to hire one - so that I look better than other models without MU skills
Model skills - to make your photos better
My look - which is why we are all individually hired, based on a photographer's taste and preferences
My time, both in front of the camera and driving to you
Maitnence, on my look (hair, nails, etc) - so that I look good

and HOPEFULLY, after all that, so that I may actually have some money leftover of my own to actually ENJOY in my off time for all my hard work, or put away as SAVINGS!!

It takes a heck of a lot more money to be a independent contractor/freelance hustler in a highly specialized and skilled job than it does to work a 20/hour EMPLOYED wage-job that any ol' joe who looks like anything, can walk in off the street, apply for and receive paid training for, with regular, consistent hours, that your company foots all the expenses and supplies for you to DO that job, except perhaps your work uniform and non-slip shoes... Oh, and those workers also get to return home to their families every night when they clock out, whereas I go weeks and months without seeing mine.

Though, understandably, not every shooter can AFFORD my rate -
but any shooter who doesn't even UNDERSTAND why I must charge what I do? This is someone I don't plan on trying to explain myself to, or continuing to correspond any further with. And no sweat off my back, I just move along!!

Nobody cares about your expenses and that is NOT a valid reason to pay you. The ONLY reason to pay you is for the results you can deliver, that are better than someone the photographer didn't pay. If the ROI is not there, you aren't worth it. period.

BTW I have expenses too, a lot of them higher than yours. So what?

Art of the nude wrote:
I'm not questioning why to pay SOMEONE more.  I'm saying why pay the model who asks $15 more?  $15 is more than 99% of 20 year olds in Michigan make; people will show up for that.

I've been to London.  $15/hr in Allendale is a BETTER pay than £20/hr in London, even though currency conversions says it's half as much.  With travel costs, $15/hr might be better than £30/hr in London.  Allendale is 80 miles from me.  The round trip is three hours and about $20.

You appear not to haveread my lengthy post above which explains in some detail why it is different . If a model is committed to being a professional which means no flaking etc she MUST charge a rate which recompenses here for what she may lose for a days (or week or several weeks) pay to be booked for a one off two hour shoot.

Exactly the same for pro photographers. IFyou are shooting a one off portfolio for a model you have to bear in mind that two hour job may cost you a wedding or commercial booking OR you will have to flake on the model; so it has to reflect the true cost not a comparative local minimum wage. 

You want me for £9 an hour like reasonable paying jobs in an office fine then pay me that 40 hours a week every week plus my pension package and do my tax etc etc. and don't ask me to make you coffee because health and safety says I may spill it on you let alone ask me to climb up a derelict building or risk arrest shooting nude on a beach. We do something completely different from the checkout girl; and if you are offering that kind of money what you will get is a checkout girl so don't be surprised when her boyfriend turns up if he allows her to come at all.

Lumigraphics wrote:
Nobody cares about your expenses and that is NOT a valid reason to pay you. The ONLY reason to pay you is for the results you can deliver, that are better than someone the photographer didn't pay. If the ROI is not there, you aren't worth it. period.

BTW I have expenses too, a lot of them higher than yours. So what?

She is explaining why a professional model arrives at her rates. A non professional model wouldn't have a clue so can pluck a figure from the air; ridiculously low or high.

Photographers its the same. To a non pro photographer £1.5 k for a days wedding shoot can sound lucrative. Do you have to explain here why it is very reasonable? No you don't have to because we know it is hell and you deserve it and it takes ages to process everything. However SOME photographers seem NOT to realise a professional models rates have time and motion and wardrobe and MU and hair etc etc factored in just like you have to do it.

That is the problem here. We do NOT question your rates; it is you who question ours.

You don't have to pay them; but don't be surprised when you get models who flake because they are not professionals. So they suddenly realise that it is going to cost them more to dye their roots and have their hair cut like it was on the shoot you have seen on their port last year and they haven't factored that in; or you want to shoot seamed stockings and they need 3 new pairs at £75 in total when you want to pay less than that for the shoot.

Lumigraphics wrote:

At this point I am not charging models, I simply am too busy to book work that doesn't interest me. I am also not paying models because I don't have the requisite return on investment. I don't have to make money but I can't afford to lose money either.

And it's the photographers job to get good results regardless of the models experience level.

If they turn up.

Eliza C wrote:
You appear not to haveread my lengthy post above which explains in some detail why it is different . If a model is committed to being a professional which means no flaking etc she MUST charge a rate which recompenses here for what she may lose for a days (or week or several weeks) pay to be booked for a one off two hour shoot.

Exactly the same for pro photographers. IFyou are shooting a one off portfolio for a model you have to bear in mind that two hour job may cost you a wedding or commercial booking OR you will have to flake on the model; so it has to reflect the true cost not a comparative local minimum wage. 

You want me for £9 an hour like reasonable paying jobs in an office fine then pay me that 40 hours a week every week plus my pension package and do my tax etc etc. and don't ask me to make you coffee because health and safety says I may spill it on you let alone ask me to climb up a derelict building or risk arrest shooting nude on a beach. We do something completely different from the checkout girl; and if you are offering that kind of money what you will get is a checkout girl so don't be surprised when her boyfriend turns up if he allows her to come at all.

I did in fact read your lengthy rationalization.  It doesn't matter.  First, it isn't relevant because I'm not talking about a full time professional model; honestly, I don't know of ANY in Michigan outside of Detroit (OK, one possible exception; other than her, they may exist, but I'm not aware of them). 
I was just offered $50 for a COMMERCIAL photo session.  I have low overhead, and I'm pretty flexible, but that's not £9/hr, it's £2/hr.  For a one off job.  Very few full time jobs around here, especially those available without college degrees, have "pension packages" or "health insurance" or all that.

And, I'm not sure where the boyfriend business comes in; even when no money is involved, I don't put up with boyfriends, haven't for nearly three years.  If the boyfriend's going to interfere that much, I'd RATHER she not show up.

If I had the sales, I'd be happy to pay models; and for the likes of Rebecca, "standard rates."  But some girls who are in no way the professionals like her, and you, still ask $50-$100 an hour, and there's simply no logic to it.

Art of the nude wrote:

I did in fact read your lengthy rationalization.  It doesn't matter.  First, it isn't relevant because I'm not talking about a full time professional model; honestly, I don't know of ANY in Michigan outside of Detroit (OK, one possible exception; other than her, they may exist, but I'm not aware of them). 
I was just offered $50 for a COMMERCIAL photo session.  I have low overhead, and I'm pretty flexible, but that's not £9/hr, it's £2/hr.  For a one off job.  Very few full time jobs around here, especially those available without college degrees, have "pension packages" or "health insurance" or all that.

And, I'm not sure where the boyfriend business comes in; even when no money is involved, I don't put up with boyfriends, haven't for nearly three years.  If the boyfriend's going to interfere that much, I'd RATHER she not show up.

If I had the sales, I'd be happy to pay models; and for the likes of Rebecca, "standard rates."  But some girls who are in no way the professionals like her, and you, still ask $50-$100 an hour, and there's simply no logic to it.

There is a large Michigan retail employer who offers health insurance and pension benefits for both full time and part time employees.

Art of the nude wrote:

For YOU $15 is "Laughable."  But there are models who make $7.50/hr in their day jobs, and a client/photographer would probably would get less quality results in $100 worth of $15/hr modeling than you do in $100 worth of $100/hr modeling.  So why would someone pay them more?

Because they're worth it. I'm so sick of hearing the line well have you seen the economy and how its dropped lately? I'm like, yes I have, but I've also seen the economy get better as of late. My bills are still the same. MY rates haven't change in the three years more than up 25 an hr or so. I negotiate for upwards of 4 hrs of bookings. That's just how it goes. Yes, the economy is down. Yes, some models make 7.50/hr at their day job. None of that is my problem. MY bills are the same, my worth is the same. I get it more often than not, so why go below 100/hr

Art of the nude wrote:
I did in fact read your lengthy rationalization.  It doesn't matter.  First, it isn't relevant because I'm not talking about a full time professional model; honestly, I don't know of ANY in Michigan outside of Detroit (OK, one possible exception; other than her, they may exist, but I'm not aware of them). 
I was just offered $50 for a COMMERCIAL photo session.  I have low overhead, and I'm pretty flexible, but that's not £9/hr, it's £2/hr.  For a one off job.  Very few full time jobs around here, especially those available without college degrees, have "pension packages" or "health insurance" or all that.

And, I'm not sure where the boyfriend business comes in; even when no money is involved, I don't put up with boyfriends, haven't for nearly three years.  If the boyfriend's going to interfere that much, I'd RATHER she not show up.

If I had the sales, I'd be happy to pay models; and for the likes of Rebecca, "standard rates."  But some girls who are in no way the professionals like her, and you, still ask $50-$100 an hour, and there's simply no logic to it.

Read the recurring threads round here from some photographers. Flakes and annoying escorts as well as the rates issue.

I could not understand this when I first joined until I realised they are not talking about professional models. They are wannabes because so many photographers have created their own monsters by picking girls off the street or on the checkout or booking them on here without checking them out.

I do NOT ask $100 an hour. SOMETIMES I get offered that and more for jobs so I am not going to turn it down because sometimes the budgets some people have are more. If you have a third party and they say here is $2k shoot me a lingerie catalogue then you may choose to say book someone like me for $500 for the day I am not going to say I will do it cheaper. Hence my rates are not posted but I consistently tell people I am £145 a day whether its an hour or ten. Sometimes they may say oh we only have a budget of £100 but we will pay travel too or get you lunch or give you a cd or a dress etc. A negotiation has to have something else.

The models you describe are either NOT professionals and they want that money because they have to take a day off from wall mart; or they are and they know that taking a two hour shoot could cost them a weeks work because they make get a booking from a boutique in Michigan or NY. That's right; because a model may live in Allendale doesn't mean she doesn't fly to NY to do a week with Carolina Hererra or something; or go to Michigan to do two weeks at the Art college life drawing. And yes; you didn't think top designers use the Kate Mosses of this world to come in and show dresses to their top clients over a glass of wine  every evening for a promotion or do the fitting work did you? or even Agency models? But they use reliable pros and that is what we get paid. If we do photo work then we could lose those jobs so we need to be paid a similar rate. ANY professional will tell you this (whether its an Art model, a fitting model, promo model, dancer etc etc): ie that photography is only part of their modelling work and the most difficult because its often one off. And once you have been doing it a few years then there are only so many pics of yourself in a chain store dress or drinking lime juice at a health spa or a classic nude you want.

If you can get a pro model for less than a couple of hundred dollars for a days work (and that is what we want a days pay for whatever many hours) then you aren't going to be working with a pro.

If an advertising company or product creator is offering you $50 for a commerical job you should laugh and show them the door and tell them there is a farmer up the road with a camera. Just like I tell a photographer if he offers me $30 for a two hour shoot that there is a girl in tescos who is quite pretty and she is free after 6pm. So they book them then the boyfriend finds out then you get all that crap then finally she flakes. Then they come back to we professionals. Or they spend all their time whining on about it here

And TELL the client who is offering you $50 that they won't even get a professional model for that for one hour.

Eliza C wrote:
...
I could not understand this when I first joined until I realised they are not talking about professional models. They are wannabes because so many photographers have created their own monsters by picking girls off the street or on the checkout or booking them on here without checking them out.
...

Don't blame the occasional amateur model.

I book professional models and amateur models. Both can be completely reliable. Both can do excellent work. And neither asks $100 an hour for art. $100 an hour or more for certain other things is completely normal.

Most of the problems about reliability and rates discussed in this forum are caused by the photographers' delusions. They think their work has great value for the model or they believe their work is art. Most of the time, the model (both professional and amateur) knows better.

Thornton Harris wrote:
Don't blame the occasional amateur model.

I book professional models and amateur models. Both can be completely reliable. Both can do excellent work. And neither asks $100 an hour for art. $100 an hour or more for certain other things is completely normal.

Most of the problems about reliability and rates discussed in this forum are caused by the photographers' delusions. They think their work has great value for the model or they believe their work is art. Most of the time, the model (both professional and amateur) knows better.

Partly right; but sometimes we also have to turn down exceptional photographers. We may say yes we'd do tf no probs but the days they are free and the days we are free rarely come toghether. So inevitably the realisation occurs that the arranegment usually only happens if one pays the other.

As for the occasional amateur model yes - I already said they can be good and dedicated. But that isn't the checkout girl with delusions of grandeur that is the part time model who knows what it involves. That isn't the model being talked about here : the model being discussed here is the one that has rates. The question is are those rates justified? And they are entirely justified if and by the fact we are working for other photographers or other areas of modelling. The secret is for the photographer to tell the difference between the different types of model because it appears there is some difficulty in knowing who to approach and whether they are offering you true rates and will be professional.

So scenario should work like this:

1. Photographer approaches model and tells her about a project she'd be suitable for.
2. She discusses project with him and tells him the rates.
3. he accepts or declines or negotiates.
4. he asks for references and she gives them
5. project is discussed at length
6. Booking is made.
7. Photoshoot happens

Now that should be obvious. If anything isn't happening according to that then the shoot won't take place. Don't moan here if the plan breaks down at stage 2 just move on. If you aren't getting models it is because you aren't willing to pay for professionals. If you are getting good amateurs or pros willing to work for tf or low rates why are you moaning about those of us who get paid? Just book the others. But don't keep whining if you get flakes; jealous escorts, messed about. Those of us who do it all the time can't ever do that.

$100 an hour for 'Art' means what? Does it mean you are doing a sculpture and require our services for two weeks? No that isn't reasonable and we know that. That is why our rates aren't listed on our profiles. More likely we will work for $100 for the day because you are giving us two solid weeks work.

But what's this? You want us for an hour as a one off? so we have to travel three hours in the day to get to you; then get four phone calls during the journey asking if we are available this afternoon and the following three days for some boutique/fitting/art school/burlesque show/promotional modelling etc etc and we have to say no because we are travelling to a one off job for $20 ? Get real. Any model at all doing that isn't very sensible; as much as we may love your 'Art' we are not very often in a position where that can happen. The rate may be less of course if the work is ongoing or you are offering say a minimum of three or four hours work that day; but one off hour or two job is going to get my day rate. Surely photographers have to do the same? You can't do a job for a model for $20 an hour just because you love her art when that booking could mean you have to turn down a wedding or commercial shoot.

Art of the nude wrote:

Art of the nude wrote:
For YOU $15 is "Laughable."  But there are models who make $7.50/hr in their day jobs, and a client/photographer would probably would get less quality results in $100 worth of $15/hr modeling than you do in $100 worth of $100/hr modeling.  So why would someone pay them more?

I'm not questioning why to pay SOMEONE more.  I'm saying why pay the model who asks $15 more?  $15 is more than 99% of 20 year olds in Michigan make; people will show up for that.

I've been to London.  $15/hr in Allendale is a BETTER pay than £20/hr in London, even though currency conversions says it's half as much.  With travel costs, $15/hr might be better than £30/hr in London.  Allendale is 80 miles from me.  The round trip is three hours and about $20.

Whats with all the digs on MI?  I realize there is not many of us from here, but we do have planes and cars nowadays.  Travel is not a huge deal, and why all this nonsense for coke?  That would be for commercial models, who are almost always local.

Al Cooley Photography wrote:
the above quote is from a NY ciyt model, where rent is $1000+ and the cost of living is high. in backwoods Hobunk, $15p/hr is seen as good money. Standard rates are more about location. Ask traveling models they will tell you.

291 wrote:
quoting rates in definitive is incorrect.  a model doing a national campaign for coca-cola is not compensated based on their location/cost of living, it's based on the assignment.

Art of the nude wrote:
How often does a model in "Hobunk," or Allendale, or for that matter Michigan, get hired for a Coca Cola ad?  Model FROM Michigan, maybe.  But that's different.

more often than you realize.  i booked numerous national campaigns out of michigan, even those from small towns like allendale (home of grand valley state with some amazing coeds who modeled) with rates paid equal to those booked from elsewhere at national scale.

point being, oh, nevermind...