Photographer
Leon Bailey
Posts: 523
Orlando, Florida, US
My thoughts on this. I am still getting better with each shoot with what I want exactly and how I want it. I don't mind a girl who asks for some direction, but not every single shot. You can tell a girl who practices and doesn't. Some don't know how to move their face or body and just want you to tell them everything in the world. That get's frustrating to me. If a girl messages me for TF I usually ask them do they practice and are they good at poses and facial expressions. I don't want a whole shoot of the same face no matter how I pose them or their default pose.
Photographer
1CharlieMike
Posts: 453
Banbury, England, United Kingdom
Phil Drinkwater wrote:
Can't agree with that at all.
It's not the photographers job to model - it's the models. Next it'll be the photographers job to tell the MUA how to apply makeup and the stylist which clothes to put on the model.
Yes, you need to direct and give reference and so on, but you can't direct someone who can't do the job. It doesn't work.
"The model is just that, a model." - and this is treating someone as if they are a mannequin and a first class ticket to a poor model / photographer relationship, usually with dead eyes and bored looking models.
These are models NOT members of the public. What you suggest is fine for a member of the public (and I have all sorts of tricks for getting what I want from them) but models, fundamentally, should be able to model.
Think of it this way: if the photographer is like a director, is it the directors fault if the actor can't act? No. It isn't. Can they get the best from someone who can act? Yes.
A good photographer can get the most out of a model, but they can't make someone who can't model ... model.
(and yes I've done my fair share of coaching models - but only ones who I think have some talent in the first place). Yes, this.
When I work with a model I don't expect to have to tell them how to do their job. I expect to give them a starting point and then they can work from there.
Photographer
dms graphix
Posts: 1079
West Chester, Pennsylvania, US
Stop whining. A lot of guys blame the models for their bad pics. There’s a difference between an experienced model being hired for a certain job and an inexperienced model off this site looking to develop a portfolio. The former should know what she’s doing and be able to take direction. The latter probably will need lots of direction and coaxing to get the right looks, as well as some good lighting and Photoshop magic. It’s more like a portrait session. If you’re going to go that route, you need to know how to work with people and pick out their strengths and weaknesses. Even experienced models need direction, unless you want someone who does your job for you.
Photographer
LongWindFPV Visuals
Posts: 7052
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Mark Kwiatkowski wrote:
Or maybe it's me not knowing how to photograph?
I recently had a model ask for a TF session and I was happy to oblige. The first expression was a blank look that resembled minor digust. I snapped the photo and she tilted her head half an inch and kept the look. I asked for a smile, she smiles and raises her eyebrows high and widens her eyes like a crazy person. This went on for the entire session. Disgust peppered with crazy eyes. She kept her hands at her sides and when I asked for a particular hand placement it was always awkward with fingers crooked like she was casting a curse.
If I had asked for the session I would have stopped and found another model but this was HER session. Now I have 800 photos to choose from and am struggling to find 10 worth sending. I'd really like to give quality work even to those that don't know how to model.
Have any of you experienced this? How did you pull the emotions out of the model? What do you suggest I do if I am presented with this in the future? That first expression. In her mind, she's going through the list of male stereotypes, and male photographer stereotypes to see if there's a pattern match. Looks like it wasn't a binary search with the results getting more and more skewed with each iteration. Not that you had anything to do with the programming.
Photographer
mary duprie
Posts: 1262
Pontiac, Michigan, US
Hey Everyone I see my free video series has been mentioned... i just took a look at it myself and didn't realize I had so many. I impressed myself. I have to say all but the most experienced model doesn't have to be educated and coached. I don't want them flailing around hoping I got something good. But let's face it people don't fall out of bed knowing how to model. It's a slow painfull process. I chip away at it, one body part at a time. I start with the eyes and the smile and go from there. My biggest tip is I don't let them touch their body at first. I want them to look straight ahead at me and move their body, versus freezing the body and bobbing their head around. I myself do take a lot of images during a shoot. Hey, if you have the time to go through that many images I don't see a problem with it. As photographers gain experience the number just naturally goes down. I still till this day overshoot... but I fly through them in bridge and I have a very fast computer. I feel the fast clicking of the camera actually makes them relax. I would tether to a large screen and discuss the images, and point out what is good and what is bad, perhaps after every 20 images (widely varies) you will find they will start to self censor... well I could go on and on but perhaps the vids will help. I shoot new models all the time... and it's really up to the photographer to teach them the biz. most girls have only had an experience with a portrait photographer or see editorial modeling (like america's next top model) so to do commercial, glamour ect is unchartered waters for model. mary www.photographingmodels.com//modelingho … owtovideo/
Model
Amelia Simone
Posts: 2155
Rosarito, Baja California, Mexico
I tend to disagree with many of the responses about it being the photographer's job to coach the model...with every shoot that a model does, he/she should be looking at the results of every shoot he/she does and be improving from that point on...
photographers shouldn't be given the responsibility of posing the model every second..
To know your best angles, expressions and assets is the job of the model if they are to take modeling seriously and create pieces of art as opposed to snapshots
Photographer
Aaron Pawlak
Posts: 2850
New York, New York, US
Mark Kwiatkowski wrote:
Or maybe it's me not knowing how to photograph?
I recently had a model ask for a TF session and I was happy to oblige. The first expression was a blank look that resembled minor digust. I snapped the photo and she tilted her head half an inch and kept the look. I asked for a smile, she smiles and raises her eyebrows high and widens her eyes like a crazy person. This went on for the entire session. Disgust peppered with crazy eyes. She kept her hands at her sides and when I asked for a particular hand placement it was always awkward with fingers crooked like she was casting a curse.
If I had asked for the session I would have stopped and found another model but this was HER session. Now I have 800 photos to choose from and am struggling to find 10 worth sending. I'd really like to give quality work even to those that don't know how to model.
Have any of you experienced this? How did you pull the emotions out of the model? What do you suggest I do if I am presented with this in the future? How did you let that witch put her curse on you? I hope you did not eat anything along with her, because if you did you are now part of her coven, too.
She used her wicked mind control on you to make you think she owned the session.
TF is a 2 way street.
Photographer
Steven Anthony
Posts: 19455
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Mark Kwiatkowski wrote:
Or maybe it's me not knowing how to photograph?
I recently had a model ask for a TF session and I was happy to oblige. The first expression was a blank look that resembled minor digust. I snapped the photo and she tilted her head half an inch and kept the look. I asked for a smile, she smiles and raises her eyebrows high and widens her eyes like a crazy person. This went on for the entire session. Disgust peppered with crazy eyes. She kept her hands at her sides and when I asked for a particular hand placement it was always awkward with fingers crooked like she was casting a curse.
If I had asked for the session I would have stopped and found another model but this was HER session. Now I have 800 photos to choose from and am struggling to find 10 worth sending. I'd really like to give quality work even to those that don't know how to model.
Have any of you experienced this? How did you pull the emotions out of the model? What do you suggest I do if I am presented with this in the future? Why would you make 800 photos of a model and complain AFTERWARD?
Photographer
Kyiah K
Posts: 580
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
ACPhotography wrote:
800??? 1000??? Geeze, I'm done with 100 shots and that's with a few outfits!
There are people (models) who just don't really know what their face looks like and definitely freeze up when you ask them to make an expression on cue. I try stopping and talking to them, making them recite the vowels, make them laugh and try and get them comfortable...
Then there are the times that no matter what you do, they have one face they like and that's the only face they are going to make... my thoughts exactly. And its the rare occasion that I break 100.
I had a bad experience with a model that had some accidental good shots of herself. I felt like I was babysitting for 3 hrs which is 2:15 longer than I usually take to photograph a model. I did pull out an amazing shot but after all was said and done she was such a snotty little bitch I trashed the whole thing. Grrr. Women. And I AM a woman
Photographer
Bjorn Lumiere
Posts: 816
Asheville, North Carolina, US
-Koa- wrote:
Mark,
You are the one at fault here. You need to start "directing" the model. I treat every shoot as if I was shooting a movie. I tell the model what I need and demonstrate it myself if i have to. Exactly spot on advice, coming from motion picture / video background it's exactly how I do it.
The photographer is not only a camera operator, Director, Writer & Editor, give the Models a Motivation, YOU need to bring out the emotion in them. They're a blank canvas, the question is, are you artist enough to utilize it?
Photographer
MK Images Hawaii
Posts: 147
Honolulu, Hawaii, US
Mark Kwiatkowski wrote:
Again I'd like to thank all of you for your continued discussion on this matter.
This is my take away:
First my confession...Yes, I am guilty of taking a massive amount of pictures thinking that some would be worth using. I was playing the numbers game. What all of you DO agree on, is that taking 800 photos was overkill. The Hail Mary method should not be my initial approach. As a professional, I need to invest more thought prior to pressing the shutter. I thank you for that direct and helpful slap to the face.
Second...I finished culling and came up with about 40 pictures I am happy with. That is a 5% success rate. Pretty pitifull for this shoot. The good news is that is not my normal rate. I usually don't "spray & pray" but resorted to that once I saw she was so stiff.
Third...A big fat THANK YOU to those of you that offered suggestions and links to examples and videos on shooting models. I will certainly soak those up to guide me in future shoots.
I agree that it is not my position to "Teach" models how to model, but I DO carry the responsibility to bring the best out of the person that I am shooting.
This experience, and your input, will make this a learning moment for me and other photographers that find themselves in the same position.
On a life imitates art moment:
Page 78-79 of the Victoria's Secret Fall Sale & Specials Catalog 2011 Vol 1. Features a model in several photos displaying only one expression: a look of disgust.
Maybe I am ready for the big time after all! 
Edit: I have failed to mention that the model had 4 clothing changes and 7 locations. Maybe 800 doesn't sound as bad now? I was surprised to see that this forum popped up again. For those few of you that skipped all the dialogue and felt it was important to take a jab at me, I thought I'd repost my original response to the kind people that actually responded to my request for advice.
Peace out.
Photographer
applecider
Posts: 89
Chicago, Illinois, US
if you give them a cucumber they pose better!
|
