Mosttry wrote:

although...Jeff Koons does...

I thought he was a sculptor or is this why I've never seen any of his paintings. ;o)

AJScalzitti wrote:
Koa,

We do all have to learn, but I didn't lean photography from the model - I am seeing some flawed logic here.

We do all have to learn, but I did'nt learn photography from the sun. - I am seeing some flawed logic here. That's right, I have to learn how the light from the sun works in order to properly set my camera. Same with models. I have to learn how they work so I can set myself to better work with them.

We all learn from EVERYTHING.

Example: When did you elarn how to speak? I bet you knew how to speak english before you hit kindergaten, right. You listened to others and thus learned on your own without formal training.

I learn from my models. I have learned when they are confident and when they are not. I have to learn how to treat them in all aspects. It's humanity 101. I did not go to a school that taught me how to direct, handle, talk to or encourage models. I learned that on my own by working with models.

Yes, I have learned from models. I'd be a stuck up dick if I thought otherwise. Models have learned from me and I have learned from them. If they tell me they are uncomfortable, I find out why and adjust.

No, I did not learn my photography from a model but my photography in general has vastly improved from what I have learned from them.

-Koa-

Mark Kwiatkowski wrote:

Why not?

If a model sucks it shouldn't take 800 shots to figure that out.  I'd argue that if they're good it won't take you that many shots either, but it's your choice if you want to create that many images to go through.  If the model had 2 expressions, why shoot each one 400 times?

-Koa- wrote:
And to those who think my logic is flawed, then I'd hate to see you doing portrait work.

It does not matter how many times a person has had their portrait made, you still have to direct them to get the best image. Or, do you just say, "Stand there and smile" and go *CLICK*, done!?

Really!

-Koa-

Two different worlds.  I expect to have to demostrate and mime out things for a non model or a new model in development.  The issue the OP had was with a model and frankly if you are shooting with a model you should not expect to have to provide that level of coaching, it should be out of the ordinary and never with a agency signed model.

AJScalzitti wrote:
Two different worlds.  I expect to have to demostrate and mime out things for a non model or a new model in development.  The issue the OP had was with a model and frankly if you are shooting with a model you should not expect to have to provide that level of coaching, it should be out of the ordinary and never with a agency signed model.

As I already stated, some models are naturals. Other's are not.

Let's just say that I have no problems working with people regardless of their experience and leave it at that.

-Koa-
www.borikenwarrior.com

Mark Kwiatkowski wrote:
I asked for a smile, she smiles and raises her eyebrows high and widens her eyes like a crazy person. This went on for the entire session.

Don't ask her to smile. Make her smile.

Cuica Cafezinho wrote:
First, don't shoot 800 photos.

+1

I've shot complete weddings in under 800 shots. For a headshot session, I'm usually done after 30-40.

Mark Kwiatkowski wrote:
Or maybe it's me not knowing how to photograph?

To all those that responded in the affirmative to this point, it is possible that they were missing one particular point.

Maybe it's not that you don't know "how to photograph" per se but that you don't know how to photograph that particular type of model?

Crazy eyes and awkward hands don't necessarily have to make a bad photograph (http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/2001.474) but evidently not the kind of photograph you had in mind.

If you've seen any cutting edge European fashion magazines recently, you'll have seen crazy eyes, awkward hand positions and all kinds of things certainly not found in the Mary Duprie guide to modeling. 

So it depends what you want and how open you are to all the possibilities.

95536 wrote:

Don't ask her to smile. Make her smile.

More people should think like this.

-Koa- wrote:

Carlos,
I have yet to work with a "professional" model. They have all walked, basically, off the street. That means not a single one from MM either. These folks, men and women, have no idea what is expected of them. It's up to the photographer, who supposedly does have the experience, to teach them.

Or, maybe these models should go to a modeling school first. What's your thought on that. How many models on this site have gone to modeling school?

Not everyone can model and not everyone can be a photographer. Yet people can learn if shown how to do it. How did you learn?

The point is that my response was accurate. We as photographers have to take full responsibility for what we produce. So, if my work comes out like crap, do I tell everyone it was the models fault? Better yet, if the images turn out terrific, do you say, "It was because of the model"!? Right, did'nt think so.

Fact is, any team that works together sinks or swims depending on the leader (the photographer in this case). If you don't have the patience or the ability to guide and encourage the models in the direction you need them to go, then you need to find another line of work.

Remember, when given lemons, make lemonade.

-Koa-
www.borikenwarrior.com

No, sorry. As you say you've not worked with pro models. Any team lives or dies from the skill of the team, including the leader. What you're talking about is a very micro management team, not a creative team.

A team is more than a leader and people who follow. That approach, as I've said so so many times here, produces bored looking models and uninteresting photography.

-Koa- wrote:
And to those who think my logic is flawed, then I'd hate to see you doing portrait work.

It does not matter how many times a person has had their portrait made, you still have to direct them to get the best image. Or, do you just say, "Stand there and smile" and go *CLICK*, done!?

Really!

-Koa-

Portrait and model photography share very little in common from an effective directing perspective.

ACPhotography wrote:
800??? 1000??? Geeze, I'm done with 100 shots and that's with a few outfits!

I have a known shooter friend who is always done with a shoot in 45 minutes, tops.  Knows what he wants, shoots it and is done.

95536 wrote:

+1

I've shot complete weddings in under 800 shots. For a headshot session, I'm usually done after 30-40.

Yep!  Comes from the mentality of keeping one's finger on the shutter hoping something good will come out if one shoots enough shots

Doug Jantz wrote:

Yep!  Comes from the mentality of keeping one's finger on the shutter hoping something good will come out if one shoots enough shots

It's called throwing shit at the wall and hoping something sticks!!!!

JSL wrote:
It is frustrating to do a session and not feel like you got the shot - no matter if it's a paid shoot, tf, whatever. None of us want to say that we just wasted a bunch of time with no results.

Having said that, it happens to everyone. I shot with a girl earlier this week and she smiled in every single freakin' pic I took... Even though she tried not to, she couldn't have had a serious expression if I would have wacked her with a 2x4.

I'm pretty sure that happened to everyone of us.

Actually when booking a model, you should already noticed model poses, face expression, hands, etc on her portfolio. Just Don't book crappy models unless you have time and energy to waste with them.

For a paid job or not, you have to direct them and if they still can't do what you want, just shoot, take the money $$$ and move on. Don't take it too personal. Who cares?

Mostly they are newbies, lacking experiences. Some model are skillful than the others. Just like in any industries or careers.

coffee_high wrote:
800 photos??  10 is good enough,

10 good ones is enough.  1 good one is enough.

but certain situations require 800 photos in order to get that one good one.

Doug Jantz wrote:

I have a known shooter friend who is always done with a shoot in 45 minutes, tops.  Knows what he wants, shoots it and is done.

I get more and more like this after every shoot.

If the model is lacking and the photographer doesn't have the knowledge to get the model doing what he wants, don't blame the model. 

Not everyone in front of the camera knows exactly what to do.  If you have to do 800 shots for a single shoot, you may want to rethink your strategy.

Mark Laubenheimer wrote:

10 good ones is enough.  1 good one is enough.

but certain situations require 800 photos in order to get that one good one.

If you're spraying and praying, sure.  If you know what you want it's a completely different story.

Mark Kwiatkowski wrote:

Why not?

Were you shooting a short wedding? lol. 800 is ALOT for one model. I mean I shoot about 120 and that's three looks with different lighting setups. To each his own. You may wear your model down shooting 800 frames unless your rapid firing.

Mosttry wrote:
Shooting a model isn't that different from directing an actor.  If the talent is doing something 'wrong', we're the ones who can coach them to where they need to be.

I've directed actors, I directed plays professionally. You can coach and make small improvements, but someone knows how to act or they don't. You're not likely to get a great performance out of someone who hasn't trained and learned their craft.

In college one of my Theatre professors would get very drunk and morose the night that the plays he directed the students in opened. I never understood why until I became a director. You have this vision in your head of what you want things to look like, and inexperienced actors are likely to fall very short of that.

I really reject the point of view that it's all the photographer's responsibility and the OP is at at fault. Yes some good direction may have helped improve the images some. But it's the model's job to model, that's what they're there for. Someone who doesn't know what to do with their hands, that's a real newbie model issue.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Direct in this circumstance

I've shot with girls that weren't models, models that didn't know how to model, etc. If the shoot isn't working you should stop and show them a bunch of poses, like some models you know might have videos on youtube of them modeling, stream that from your phone

have some model magazines around, or a posing guide for reference

This is your answer.

Rodney Almore Photos wrote:

This is your answer.

It isn't... and it's because all you'll get is bored faces with a pose which looks similar to what you did. That's *not* a model using my definition at least.

Models are more than just a body - they're a face and an expression. That's much, much harder to teach. Even in art nude (where you're not shooting body parts) the models expression is important.

The thing I don't get about those of you guys saying the photographer should be responsible is:

Every pro photographer I've spoken to says, if the model can't model, you send her home and ring the agency for someone who can.

..and..

If what you're saying is true and anyone can model to a reasonable professional standard, why book a pro model? Why not just get some random pretty girl off the street?

The simple answer is that there's a world of difference between someone with talent and someone who can stand there and look pretty. You can't turn someone who can stand there and look pretty and has no talent into someone with talent.

I dunno.. maybe some of you are happy enough with someone standing there and looking pretty, but for the work I do I need someone with natural talent.

No one can give them that talent if they don't already have it because it oozes from their *personality*, the way they carry themselves and what they do with their face.

Put it this way - when I test a new girl with an agency, the agency don't come back and say "How well did you teach her?" they are much more interesting in my opinion on "How talented is she?". And yes I give models tips and ways to get what they want, but fundamentally, if a model can't model, that cannot be the photographers responsibility.

(except for choosing to do a shoot with her in the first place)