Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I said that she could evaluate research better than we can!  Some research is crap!

In paleoclimatology, yes.  In child psychiatry, not necessarily.

The only thing she may be able to do better than the rest of us is to determine if valid scientific methods were observed, like whether the research has been peer reviewed, if it was double blind, etc.

Then again, it doesn't take a PhD in science to figure that out.

And... for the nth time, we don't know the educational credentials of everyone here, so taking one person's opinion as gospel, just because they've told everyone that they have a degree in something may not be the best idea.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
Many organizations have an agenda.  The research can be slanted to support their agenda and get money for more research.

Right. I'm sure that is exactly what the AAP is doing. Can't trust em' at all. Not to mention that not all of the studies the AAP agrees with were conducted by the AAP itself.

There is a flaw in your argument though which would be if that were true then the research that whoever her name posted could also be slanted to fit a certain agenda and should not be brought up at all since it can't be proven to be credible because many organizations have agendas and we should just start out assuming that they do (especially if they contradict our personal opinions with their stupid slanted science). Right? Right.

And since most science isn't credible because of organization's agendas, we can then disregard scientists as also being not credible making whoever you keep yammering about as a non-credible source for any information.

You see how your statement unravels the other things you have been using to back your opinion up?

Isabel Allende wrote:

But, not the research I posted since the AAP wouldn't use it to build and back up their professional stance on spanking if it were faulty research.

And like I said before, you do not have to be a scientist to be able to evaluate research well.

And I have said that a person who performs research and writes research papers is in a much better position to evaluate research.

Isabel Allende wrote:
Right. I'm sure that is exactly what the AAP is doing. Can't trust em' at all. Not to mention that not all of the studies the AAP agrees with were conducted by the AAP itself.

There is a flaw in your argument though which would be if that were true then the research that whoever her name posted could also be slanted to fit a certain agenda and should not be brought up at all since it can't be proven to be credible because many organizations have agendas and we should just start out assuming that they do (especially if they contradict our personal opinions with their stupid slanted science). Right? Right.

And since most science isn't credible because of organization's agendas, we can then disregard scientists as also being not credible making whoever you keep yammering about as a non-credible source for any information.

You see how your statement unravels the other things you have been using to back your opinion up?

Not really.  You are expanding what I said.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
And I have said that a person who performs research and writes research papers is in a much better position to evaluate research.

Not always, especially when it comes to research that isn't in her field of study.

Isabel Allende wrote:

Not always, especially when it comes to research that isn't in her field of study.

This contradicts something that you said.

Gianantonio wrote:
In the monster thread on spanking I ask a simple question which no one answered.

So I thought I’d ask it in its own thread to allow people to focus on just the one issue.

In asking this question, I want to get rid of all the controversy around spanking and for the purposes of my question, we can assume that there are no adverse effects of spanking.  Further, even though the peer-reviewed longitudinal research done on childrearing practices shows spanking to be among the least effective, for the sake of this discussion, we can assume that spanking works as well as any other non-spanking technique you could use.

So, even given the above—to those who do or plan to spank their kids--Why would you choose to spank your kids?

It depends on the kid. My oldest detested being spanked and would do anything to avoid being spanked. My youngest never gave a shit.

These days, they're both older and deprivation of video games seems to be what works best.

In any event, spankings were VERY rare and reserved for when I really needed to get my point across (doing something VERY disrespectful or painfully, dangerously stupid.)

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I find it amazing how people take things to extremes in this thread!

Someone posted cute comics.
Real extreme.
Kind of like when you insulted me and insinuated that I was naive/not knowledgeable because of my age because I disagreed with you.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
This contradicts something that you said.

No, I said that you do not have to be a science to be able to understand scientific data and research, which you don't. This is true.

But, I do not believe that just because someone is a scientist in one field can automatically be able to effectively evaluate research in another field.
They might, but I don't assume them as qualified right off the bat just over a degree they've claimed to have in something that is a completely opposite field.
Just like I don't assume someone is incapable of understanding because of a lack of a degree or just because they do not like to announce their degrees.

Isabel Allende wrote:

Someone posted cute comics.
Real extreme.
Kind of like when you insulted me and insinuated that I was naive/not knowledgeable because of my age because I disagreed with you.

You didn't like to hear that did you.  It is common for younger people to think that they have all the answers.  One day you will be in my shoes.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
You didn't like to hear that did you.  It is common for younger people to think that they have all the answers.  One day you will be in my shoes.

I'm real offended. Man, you really showed me the truth. I am just soo stupid...

If it makes you feel better in your willful ignorance to think that.

Isabel Allende wrote:
For me that was talks with my grandpa.
He never raised a hand to me, but he'd sit me down and look at me long and hard and then say "I'm disappointed in you for (insert whatever bad thing I did)"

Oh, the cuts to the heart that one made, but I sure as hell never wanted to disappoint him again.

I've always hated this sort of thing. Is toying with a child's emotions preferential to physical admonishment? A whack on the ass is temporary... fucking with a kid's sense of love and attachment? Now that's REALLY fucked up.

If I EVER attempt to manipulate my kids in this fashion, I hope someone whacks me up-side the head with a brick.

Isabel Allende wrote:

No, I don't/never did think that.
I just disagreed that kids don't push limits/boundaries.

I was saying that kids do push limits--it's part of growing up.

Isabel Allende wrote:

I'm real offended. Man, you really showed me the truth. I am just soo stupid...

If it makes you feel better in your willful ignorance to think that.

I didn't say that!  You are interpreting my statement that way.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I said that she could evaluate research better than we can!  Some research is crap!

Yes. That's true.

I do research for a living and have an advanced degree in psychology and statistics. And I can tell you, the research Eliza has provided on this topic has been crap.

William Kious wrote:
I've always hated this sort of thing. Is toying with a child's emotions preferential to physical admonishment? A whack on the ass is temporary... fucking with a kid's sense of love and attachment? Now that's REALLY fucked up.

If I EVER attempt to manipulate my kids in this fashion, I hope someone whacks me up-side the head with a brick.

Well, he never told me he didn't love me, or with-held telling me he loved me, or with-held physical affection. I agree that things like that are very harmful to children. Very much so.

All my grandfather really did was make me think about what I did to disappoint him and of course it feels bad to disappoint anyone you love and respect. That's not really a bad thing for a child to learn, imo.

And my point has never been that spanking is inherently wrong, my opinion is that it's just not the only route to take with children and that there are many different approaches to discipline and parents should make an informed decision and do what works the best for them and what they feel comfortable with. I don't think there is a right or wrong that can be proven objectively/factually when it comes to discipline, at least it cannot be proven yet. I don't feel comfortable with any level of physical force when it comes to discipline, which is fine since there are other ways to discipline kids, some people do feel comfortable with corporal punishment and it works for them, which is also fine.

Gianantonio wrote:

I was saying that kids do push limits--it's part of growing up.

Ah, I see. I misinterpreted you. Apologies.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

Many organizations have an agenda.  The research can be slanted to support their agenda and get money for more research.

The AAP's agenda is child health and safety...

Gianantonio wrote:

Yes. That's true.

I do research for a living and have an advanced degree in psychology and statistics. And I can tell you, the research Eliza has provided on this topic has been crap.

Do you enjoy starting threads like this?  You just sit back and watch people argue.  Do you do this for your recreation?

Isabel Allende wrote:
I don't think there is a right or wrong that can be proven objectively/factually when it comes to discipline, at least it cannot be proven yet.

So, you advocate waterboarding for unruly children?

Deprivation of food?

Being locked in a closet for hours on end?

Being struck with objects?

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

Do you enjoy starting threads like this?  You just sit back and watch people argue.  Do you do this for your recreation?

Wow.

This is kind of interesting.

We have two (known) scientists posting on this thread.  They disagree.  Whom do we believe?

I'm really interested in hearing your answer to this, honestly.

William Kious wrote:
So, you advocate waterboarding for unruly children?

Deprivation of food?

Being locked in a closet for hours on end?

Being struck with objects?

Oh, hush!

The only form of CP I meant to speak of as 'not being proven as right or wrong' was spanking. I opened myself right up to that one.

Since I don't find spanking to be abuse, I was only talking about all forms of discipline that are not abuse like water-boarding. Those are very very bad.

Gianantonio wrote:
In the monster thread on spanking I ask a simple question which no one answered.

So I thought I’d ask it in its own thread to allow people to focus on just the one issue.

In asking this question, I want to get rid of all the controversy around spanking and for the purposes of my question, we can assume that there are no adverse effects of spanking.  Further, even though the peer-reviewed longitudinal research done on childrearing practices shows spanking to be among the least effective, for the sake of this discussion, we can assume that spanking works as well as any other non-spanking technique you could use.

So, even given the above—to those who do or plan to spank their kids--Why would you choose to spank your kids?

I'm spanking my children every time you start a new thread.

Cuica Cafezinho wrote:

I'm spanking my children every time you start a new thread.

That doesn't surprise me...

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
I hate seeing kids that act like little assholes, and the parents stand right there and do nothing except "can you please stop that?". Do you think the kid stops? No. Some children need to be put in their place to be taught respect, manners and morals. And since most of the time their brains are too under developed to comprehend adult reasoning (hell, most ADULTS arnt able to comprehend that), a physical stimulus is required to put the lesson in perspective for them. That doesnt mean it should be uncontrolled wailing blows or smack across the face or done with anything but the palm of the hand. But a firm slap on the wrist or butt (which is the most padded part of the body) is enough.

I find that the most assholeish teenagers/adults are the ones who were never adequately punished for being assholes as children.

Children and adults keep testing their boundaries until they understand what they are.

It is up to the parents to establish those boundaries in raising children.

As an adult, it's up to YOU to figure out what is acceptable behavior or not in yourself and in others.

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
I find that the most assholeish teenagers/adults are the ones who were never adequately punished for being assholes as children.

I agree. It's just that there are a lot of effective punishments that do not involve hitting the child.

Damon Banner wrote:

You need to learn to reason with them.  Appeal to them, on an adult level.

Yeah....because they're adults.  Seriously?  I mean I"m a mom...and I can count on 1 hand the number of times my daughter who is now 9 has been spanked.  If used correctly, spanking doesn't have to be done often.  I use it as a last resort.  My daughter knows that if it gets to the point to where she gets her butt popped a couple of times (with my hand), then she really messed up big time and it really lets her know she should seriously think about what she did to get to that point.  It teaches respect when done correctly...even in the wild, animal moms correct their young with swats from the tail, or by knocking them over and growling when they step out of line. 

Every child is different.  I know my own child better than anybody else does.  I would never spank another person's child nor judge another person for doing so or not doing so...however, I see so many kids walking all over their parents, talking and acting so disrespectful, because their parents are always trying to "appeal to them on an adult level" or be their child's friend.  Guess what?  That's what's wrong now...too many parents not doing their jobs and teaching their kids to be respectful of others, especially adults.  When I was a kid, if I so much as even mumbled what I hear some kids saying to their parents, I would have been backhanded for being a disrespectful little shit.  I was raised to say "ma'am" and "sir", to say "please" and "thank you"...and my mom spanked me when necessary, and I turned out to be a respectful human being...respectful of others around me, and not have this "all about me" syndrome like so many young kids and teenagers have today.  Just my .02.

John Jebbia wrote:
Because an ass whoopin now is better than the ass reaming they get later in prison when they've failed to learn that consequences can hurt.

^^^^This!^^^^

Mac is Live wrote:
What spanking leads to

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-11-11/opin … PM:OPINION

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/02/health/sh … index.html

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/discip … your-child

Spanking is abuse. Please correct your actions with sensibility.

If you were my parent, Id spank myself!

Gianantonio wrote:

I agree. It's just that there are a lot of effective punishments that do not involve hitting the child.

Not in all situations though. In some situations a physical punishment would be appropriate, and in fact necessary. For example, witnessing your kid physically harming another kid. A good smack on the butt and firm explanation of why you did it and what he did wrong would stick better in the childs mind. Remember that kids learn by more than one stimulus. A combination of verbal and physical can be a good teacher. But it is always, like everything, in moderation and for a good reason. And of course, if the smacking method seems to be inaffective, then the method should be changed. Just like if only using the verbal method, the method should be altered.

No one can set one strict guideline on how to raise a child. Every child is different and learns differently, and every situation is different. It is the responsibility of the parent to find a method of teaching discipline and morals that works for their child. If a smack on the butt is effective, then that's that, there's no more arguement. The REAL concern in all this is the end result, the lesson learned by the child.

Sweet Surrender wrote:

Yeah....because they're adults.  Seriously?  I mean I"m a mom...and I can count on 1 hand the number of times my daughter who is now 9 has been spanked.  If used correctly, spanking doesn't have to be done often.  I use it as a last resort.  My daughter knows that if it gets to the point to where she gets her butt popped a couple of times (with my hand), then she really messed up big time and it really lets her know she should seriously think about what she did to get to that point.  It teaches respect when done correctly...even in the wild, animal moms correct their young with swats from the tail, or by knocking them over and growling when they step out of line. 

Every child is different.  I know my own child better than anybody else does.  I would never spank another person's child nor judge another person for doing so or not doing so...however, I see so many kids walking all over their parents, talking and acting so disrespectful, because their parents are always trying to "appeal to them on an adult level" or be their child's friend.  Guess what?  That's what's wrong now...too many parents not doing their jobs and teaching their kids to be respectful of others, especially adults.  When I was a kid, if I so much as even mumbled what I hear some kids saying to their parents, I would have been backhanded for being a disrespectful little shit.  I was raised to say "ma'am" and "sir", to say "please" and "thank you"...and my mom spanked me when necessary, and I turned out to be a respectful human being...respectful of others around me, and not have this "all about me" syndrome like so many young kids and teenagers have today.  Just my .02.

This, exactly. Kids have it rediculously easy nowadays, and the end result is a generation of disrespectful little shits.

Good Egg Productions wrote:

Mac is Live wrote:
Most people don't want to admit they are wrong.

Here are more links:

http://www.momlogic.com/2009/06/spankin … _abuse.php

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/02 … s-20120702

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/spanking-k … d=16695697

I used google.  Found my own links.

http://www.parentdish.com/2010/01/05/re … -for-kids/

http://www.circleofmoms.com/welcome-to- … nts-650825

http://madamenoire.com/40373/8-reasons- … your-kids/

http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/f … d-for-kids

See?  It works, according to these doctors.  Or it doesn't.  Who knows.

According to the APA (the foremost authority on the matter) it doesn't.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx

I do know this. People will fund articles to be published against what the experts say.

Good Egg Productions wrote:
I'll make you a deal.  I won't spank YOUR kids.

I won't make threats either way. That does nothing for your argument. I am shocked you think its fair to say.

j3_photo wrote:
Horseshit...look at todays society with less spanking- horrible!  We have actual people dealing with kids in this very forum on what has worked.

First of all you don't need to swear to have a debate. I'm not cursing you. Secondly, are you referring to spanking or spoiling? Because neither works. I believe in teaching children

j3_photo wrote:

M A S T E R S wrote:
Those educated professional merely make educated guesses.

Please don't tell him about such facts....he won't believe it.  As was pointed out in his links- plenty of 'mays' all over. 

Hey, I may go out and play in the rare rain Vegas is having

JessieLeigh wrote:
Are you crazy?Trolling? Or just bad at reading comprehension?

I didn't . I implied that hitting a child, which is the same as spanking them (some people justify what they do, even wife beaters do that) because they don't know is not the same as teaching or even raising a child. And the justification of that is what mentally ill people do. I was just looking at an 80 page document that a court appointed psychologist wrote. I'm not wrong because I don't want to hit a child or touch their bottom. Not to incite argument, but how would you describe it? Just call it spanking? Describe how you spank a child to me.

Legacys 7 wrote:
Irony. I can post some links that show spanking works and you'll still be in denial.

You think it works because the kid doesn't have the courage to stand up to you. Someone that is so much bigger than they are. Ever read up on the description of a bully?
http://www.healthofchildren.com/B/Bullies.html#b

Naughty Ties wrote:
Oh for christ's sake, someone else who thinks they need the help of books and articles on how to raise/discipline kids. Pretty amazing on how well kids behaved 10 or 20 years ago without all the phony "help" books out there that some parents seem to need.

I raised two kids who had their asses tanned a few times and I can tell you it was NOT abuse, it was metered punishment that let them know that the behavior they were exhibiting was wrong. Did it work? You bet!

Trust me...you get a room full of kids together and I guarantee you that I can pick out the kids who get bribed to behave or get those idiotic time outs as opposed to the ones that get a spanking now and then. Like night and day. And that comes from raising my two children who are now grown and being around my five grandchildren for the last 6 years.

Courts don't call just spanking as abuse, but what you describe is considered in every state as abuse. You mark a child you take it too far. I am going to ask that the moderators pass this on to child services. Thank you for your court admissible testimony.

Legacys 7 wrote:
Here's the thing. People assume that if one is a professional, he or she has all the answers. Myths. Many are just book readers in school with a lack of knowledge. They're not some God on a throne with worldly knowledge. And the other factor is, each professional will have a different point of view on the same topic. Does that make them both right?

Too far off the topic

Naughty Ties wrote:
Including you. You've heard several experienced parents tell you why spanking works...for them....so admit you're wrong and we can move on.

I've heard from people who see the topic headline and may become infuriated with an different opinion. No one wants to admit that they hit their kid. Let me ask you a question, did you do this in public? I doubt it. At least not in an area where someone would confront you.

As far as admitting. I'm still right. Because I know better. People who do wrong can't admit what they are doing is wrong.

Isabel Allende wrote:
Sure, the APA cautions parents against spanking (probably out of the better safe than sorry stance that they typically take with things) and many psychiatrists believe it to do more harm over-all than good. But, psychiatry is a soft science and there just hasn't been enough research on this so far to say definitively that one side is right and the other side is completely wrong.

I disagree but I appreciate your response. Thank you.

j3_photo wrote:
Are you blind?
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=853383