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Photographers who don't know how to choose photos
I'm not even particularily talking about just amateur photographers either, neither am I talking about anyone in particular. I know that photographers and models have different things in mind when choosing photos to edit, but I've recently been in a few positions where I believe much better pictures could/should have been chosen... I've also recently seen photos that should have been cropped differently (going off of cropping criteria that good photographers go by) to look more appealing, yet the choice of crop the photographer applied simply made a good picture look amateur. Like I said, I know models and photographers have different points of view, however I consider myself a bit on an exception to this since I have learned from good photographers and have trained my eye to look from a photographers point of view as well as a models. 1. So, models, have you received photos back from a promising shoot only to realize there were better photos and/or different changes should have been made in editing to improve the finished photos? 2. Photographers, how would you feel about a model politely contacting you asking to see some more of the unedited photos from the shoot, and choose another one to be edited. And how would you feel/react to a model asking you to make different, specific editing changes to a finished photo? For simplicity, let's all assume this is all for a TF shoot. EDIT: To help stem the influx of inflated photographer egos, I'd like to clarify that I am speaking about beginning photographers, photographers who are still learning about their trade, ect. and who like to crop out feet (as an example). I am not stating that I am a master of all things and that I know everything and everyone should bow down to me cause I am the alpha and omega. I simply wanted to start a conversation about quetions 1 and 2. Sep 19 12 10:25 pm Link I definitely feel like some photos photographers send are not the best. I've viewed photos on cameras and have seen great photos but have never recieved those particular ones. I think that the photographers may be looking for lighting while were looking for poses and beauty. Sep 19 12 10:47 pm Link Ya, models and photogs look for different things for sure. I've started looking at photos from both angles though - beauty, posing, lights, composition, angles - and I've received photos back which I know were not the best in any one of those categories. It's such a shame, cause it feels like I missed out on something really good that was just within my grasp  Sep 19 12 11:37 pm Link Rachael Can you post some examples? Sep 19 12 11:45 pm Link Drew Smith Photography wrote: I would perfer not to, since that would be a form of outing the photographer(s) in question, and I have no intention of calling anyone out or discrediting anyone or burning bridges with very talented people whom I enjoy working with. Just expressing my saddness at a few unfortunate photo choices/edits. Sep 19 12 11:47 pm Link Those little screens on the back of cameras are very flattering to the photographer and when images are transferred to a monitor it's much easier to see lack of focus for instance. You probably didn't get those images as quite simply they were no good at monitor size and resolution. Sep 19 12 11:48 pm Link ARA Photo wrote: That's a very good point, thanks! Sep 19 12 11:50 pm Link I experienced that models almost always choose different pictures as the photographers. Sometimes I think models are looking more at poses, at theirselves and are always very, very critical. Photographer are more looking at the light, the general picture and they are satisfied when the model didnt closed her eyes, hahaha........ I over-exaggerate, but you get the point... Thats why i always want to see ALL of the pictures from a TFP shoot. It happened so many times; i only got a few, the photographers choice... or even worse; finding pictures on his website which are really last choice i would have made... Anyway, i think it is best to talk about it before the shoot. Lets both picks the favorites, the bests and even if it is a different choice, try to compromise... When it is a paid-job, than of course these "rules" are not applicable. Sep 19 12 11:59 pm Link Naomi L A wrote: Aside from what ARA photo said about the photos could be out of focus when view from other than from the camera monitor, Usually everything looks better in the tiny little preview since you can't see the detail. The same picture looks great in the monitor could actually be real bad once you look at it in a computer monitor. So those great ones could be those bad ones you have already received. Sep 20 12 12:02 am Link ps. Rachael you have a stunning and very divers portfolio! I can not imagine pictures could have been even better. Sep 20 12 12:03 am Link "For simplicity, let's all assume this is all for a TF shoot" This is important to the discussion. If it is a TF Concept Shoot that I have requested a Model for, then of course I will be looking for results that meets my concept. If a Model has presented a concept and I have agreed to do the shoot, then I will offer a much larger Proof Album and will accept requests for cropping or even some post work that may differ in the final edits. I work with both experienced and new Models. Most of the experienced Models and I have a working relationship that includes mutual respect and I value there input in the sessions and the results. Very seldom do we disagree on edits.. New Models I often give what I consider the usable proofs to review. Showing too many may make it more difficult to select those they want edited. However I am pretty liberal about the number of edits I give. I do feel with New Models that letting them see what has been edited out of the proofs, at times, may be a value to their learning to be a better model. Sep 20 12 12:04 am Link I stick everything into a password-protected smugmug gallery and ask the model which ones she likes. Sep 20 12 12:05 am Link Rachael Bueckert wrote: Generic images will do - I'm interested to see what you consider poor composition/cropping and what you think is good. Sep 20 12 12:06 am Link Studio B Photo wrote: That's really good, I love it when the photographer lets me see all the photos. That way I can tell what didn't work, what angles/poses/expressions look bad, and generally how to do better next shoot. Kudos to you Sep 20 12 12:13 am Link Drew Smith Photography wrote: I'll do a google search then Sep 20 12 12:13 am Link I am terrible at selecting. IF a models asks to see some other selects I'm happy to do so. I cannot be right even 50% of the time. I've made bad choices before and will continue to. Then a year or more later I may look to see if there are better ones than I selected at that time. There usually are. Luckily my hasty selections are still good images, there are perhaps some exceptional ones that got by. I have no problems with others asking to see or help choose other images. Sep 20 12 12:18 am Link Drew Smith Photography wrote: Good crop: Sep 20 12 12:18 am Link I'm still curious to see how you photographers would react to a model mentioning something about the photo selection or editing? Sep 20 12 12:20 am Link Hmmm... What criteria do we use to determine what a good photographer is, and why do we trust the judgement of one over another? Isn't it personal preference? When I work TF, I let the model choose the images she wants, then I print them to my specifications because those images represent my viewpoint. Maybe other photographers don't care as much about a TF shoot? Sep 20 12 12:20 am Link Neil Snape wrote: O Neil, endlessly talented AND humble. Sep 20 12 12:23 am Link Rachael Bueckert wrote: I edited the photos that i consider acceptable, while i give at the model a smaller set (generally because could be too similar on positions, etc, therefore it is useless to give a "duplicate"). Sep 20 12 12:28 am Link Rachael Bueckert wrote: Oh yes, I have. Sep 20 12 12:32 am Link NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote: Winning! Sep 20 12 12:45 am Link Rachael Bueckert wrote: Well, editing (as in culling) is an integral part of the process. If one decides they like a photographer's work, they are they are saying insomuch they not only like the lighting, styling, timing, color palette, etc, but also the editing (as in culling) and cropping. Sep 20 12 01:06 am Link Rachael Bueckert wrote: Negative. One is vanilla, one is chocolate. Or one is an apple, one is an orange, if you prefer. Sep 20 12 01:16 am Link I don't recall having any negative feedback regarding how a photo was edited, but often a model will like an image that I don't care for (and vice versa). After a shoot, I'll choose a few images to finish and also post the entire shoot (less fuzzy focus, etc) as thumbnails on my web server for the model to review. She will invariably choose additional photos. I just chalk it up to models and photographers having different POVs and it's a phenomenon I've encountered for as long as I've been shooting. The thing that's generally hardest to deal with is when a model likes a lot more images than I have time to finish. When that happens, I tell them I'm flattered but ask them to narrow the field. Sep 20 12 01:46 am Link Drew Smith Photography wrote: +1 This is very important and ONLY just starts at what makes a 'good' image,,,, Models should work with photographer, the more the better, to learn what's going on,,, you'll get to learn images,,, why some photographers are there to work for you,,, to give you the best they can with everything they know and some are happy with snapping a hot/cool model(s)... Sep 20 12 01:48 am Link If it's "TF" - which I do not do very often - I pre-select the technically good images from the shoot and upload small versions to a proofing gallery on my website, from which the model may choose her allotment of images. These I then edit and provide by download form my website. If the model has any issue with the image I encourage her to discuss it with me - I do not allow others to edit my work but in the case of TF want for the model to be pleased since she has invested her time. I have to say that even the better models I work with often do not choose the strongest images - and yes I think I am competent to make that evaluation. However I do see the rationale for most of these choices. Sep 20 12 02:03 am Link I realise that I'm not going to always have a say in which finished images I get after a shoot (in fact, if it's a paid shoot, I consider myself lucky to get images at all). In situations where the photographer has a different opinion as to favourites, I've often been able to pick which I consider my best and get copies of those too. For the handful of times where the only images I got sent were not ones I liked, I just chalked it up to a learning experience and resolved to get so awesome at posing that there wouldn't be a single bad image in the bunch next time (I have yet to achieve this lofty goal. Part of it is learning how to not blink ever). When a photographer sends me a request to work with them, I'll often look at the photos they've chosen to display of models, and compare them with that model's own portfolio. If the model portfolios consistently contain better images, it's a bit of a red flag for me. Sep 20 12 02:05 am Link Rachael Bueckert wrote: "If there are knees there must be feet" usually works... I have seen so many images today that the feet were partially or totally cropped out... #akward Sep 20 12 02:09 am Link I'm always glad to have feedback on the image choices, editing, cropping, etc. I may not always agree but usually I do. Sometimes it's a bit disheartening when something I like is more or less rejected for modelistic (is that a word?) reasons but I'm a big boy and can suck it up and move on to something else. Especially on a TF everyone gets a reasonable number of vetoes and nothing sees the light of day that has not been specifically approved by everyone involved. I have to admit that I am sometimes a bit mystified by the choices models make when they are going through an entire shoots worth of images - especially when they choose images that I think are unflattering, not something I think would be an asset to their portfolio or just kind of crappy in some meaningful way. It happens. What does make me a bit exasperated is when the comments are uselessly vague or inarticulate - "my legs look weird!" or something equally unhelpful. I recently had a model come back with incredibly useful and thoughtful comments that really helped me to see the images more from her perspective. That was deluxe and it will help me improve my meagre editing skills. I sometimes send edit variations as obviously the possibilities somewhat endless and certain image lend themselves more than others to radically different post-production approaches. I don't send anything I hate so I will often defer to the model's choice when it comes to the edit. Sep 20 12 02:20 am Link Rachael Bueckert wrote: If you like my work and want to trade with me based on my portfolio, then you should be happy to accept my selections. Rachael Bueckert wrote: If you like my work and want to trade with me based on my portfolio, then you should be happy to accept my retouching choices. Rachael Bueckert wrote: It sounds to me as if you should really be paying photographers rather than trying to trade with them if you want this degree of control. Sep 20 12 03:09 am Link I offer the models I work with the chance to pick whatever images they want, and I retouch those. I send those and my choices to her to let her choose what to use. Some models are happy to let me choose, and it that case I do. In a trade shoot, both parties should get useable images. I've never had a model choose and use an image that I was unhappy with. Maybe I'm lucky. Sep 20 12 03:11 am Link Red Sky Photography wrote: You have been extremely lucky! Sep 20 12 03:13 am Link A model choosing images and encouraging me to work on those is fine, sometimes it will happen. My framing and crops can be anything from awkward to abstract at one end of the spectrum so a model might very well have a different opinion. I do like the models I work with so I may actually work on images that they ask about. Specific editing suggestions are trickier, when it starts to sound like working for someone and I'd likely lose interest and wander off to do something else. Sep 20 12 03:23 am Link ARA Photo wrote: This !!! Sep 20 12 03:33 am Link My typical method of working is to show the model all the images in camera. I flag the ones they like there. When I pull them into LR, I add their choices as selects. I then add anything I particularly like as selects. I then weed out any images with technical issues such as poor focus. The remaining images are then uploaded for model review by interested parties. I used to do this with SmugMug galleries, but am now using the Lightbox feature on Photoshelter. That feature lets anyone the gallery is shared with, both rate with 1-5 stars AND comment. I generally allow 2-5 shots of the models choosing, and 2-5 of my own, and then retouch those. I used this new review process two weeks ago for the first time. The model selected 2 and I selected 2. I had the first retouch done same day, and sent her a proof for FB and personal use. The remaining images were ready the next evening for the client (magazine). I think if your process is sound, everyone can be happy with the process, even in a TF scenario. Everyone has input. Model has to trust the photographer to select technically good images. Photographer has to trust the model will select images that show the model in a good way. The comments section on the review allow a dialog. In my images last week, the model wanted an image that had the WORST smile, but she loved her pose! So I retouched it anyway for her. I try very hard to be fair and flexible when it comes to shoots. I think models and clients appreciate that. And I think it's why I get so much repeat business. I KNOW there are better shooters out there, but I strive to be sure there are none nicer or more fair. Everybody needs an angle right?  -B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote: Sep 20 12 03:33 am Link NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote: My approach is different but gets the same result. Sep 20 12 03:35 am Link ARA Photo wrote: I'd have to agree with this. I've been in awe at some of the shots that showed up on the 'little screen'... only to find out that there was a focus problem or I caught the model at 'half-blink' when I viewed it on my monitor. Sep 20 12 03:55 am Link Just my two cents: I don't normally show models the back of the camera images; mostly because they look SO Much different when I get them on my computer screen, and usually it isn't different in a good way. So that shot the model had hoped for, isn't going to come. However, if I see one where the pose/expression looks right now and I can tell for sure that it's sharp, I will show the model so he/she can see. Since i'm on a D800, i also have a sickly green cast to everything on the back of my screen. My old camera it was easier because it was mostly accurate, but not this one! Mostly, I depend on them trusting me to pick out the best shots. I do try to look at pose, expression, etc in addition to my photographer type stuff and always try to send a variety. Every single time I've done the gallery/model chooses thing, they'll will pick out a technically fine image, but it isn't the most flattering shot for the model. In fact, usually the choices make me cringe! I go through everything once, then go back through again later, then one more time when I'm choosing which ones to actually edit. Send over 10-15 so the model can choose whatever one they want, and if they really dislike any of them and don't want them used, they have the chance to let me know. Sep 20 12 04:11 am Link |
