Paige Morgan wrote:
Designs will hang and drape more nicely on taller, slimmer bodies and it spares the designers additional materials/labor it would take to accommodate for models of varied shape/size.

Couture gowns take tens of thousands of dollars to produce, and teams of skilled artisans. There simply isn't time or money to spend on extensive made to measure alterations for 15-30 women of different heights/sizes/body types.

The clothes aren't made to fit the girls, the girls are cast to fit the clothes.

They are made on fit models.
Who are often not tall and not so slim. I agree that the designs will look better on taller slim girls on a runway who 'float them down' - generally that isn't an issue.
BUT what is an issue is that most of the fit models I know aren't so tall so the idea that samples are made for tall girls is often not valid.


Some may be for top haute couture fashion shows. But the vast majority the samples in fashion are made for production prototype. Which is kind of the opposite of what is being suggested by many here. Actually the samples at haute couture level are sometimes made for the runway  model especially. Pret a Porter which lets face it even that is an elite part of the vast fashion buisness they use fit models who are not 00 and 5ft 10" . Then there is all the high street stuff which is the main cake. They want to actually sell the stuff. Prototypes are made on fit models of all sizes.

Eliza C wrote:
Companies are not going to pay agency rates for fit models unless their ads don't work. They do. There were a lot of applicants for my job. Many of the girls were from agencies. I think a factor is also expectations. They don't want someone who will drop them when they get an editorial shoot and leave them in the lurch a few days before a collection deadline.

funny, cause I know plenty of agencygirls that do fit work. including myself.

also, agencies don't work like that. bookings are bookings. the agency won't decide to "drop" the fitting job for the model once an editorial comes along. booked is booked.

I get that you had a great experience at agent provocateur. yeey. But like you said yourself: there were a lot of applicants for that job. Opportunities like that don't come around very often (because, like you said yourself how you worked with the for years, once they choose a fit model they tend to stick with it for a while), you kind of have to stumble upon them and then get very lucky. pretending otherwise is just not true.

sometimes they'll go for a girl that is completely not industrystandard for a fit model. Sometimes they'll go for totally fashionmodel standard (Dries Van Noten does this, he uses lissa Melis). Sometimes there's a bit of an overlap. A lot of times it's still a girl around 5'7ish or so. At 5'4 or whatever, chances of having a succesful career as a fitmodel are still really really REALLY small.

MyrnaByrna wrote:

Hello,

I saw it too and want to likewise state that "no offense was taken..."

As I read through the thread I do not see any "hating" on tall girls at all.

Just a clear question of "why?"


Jen

She edited her original post, and just reduced it to the single word.

Strength Studios wrote:

She edited her original post, and just reduced it to the single word.

It wasn't hate at all, just formulated myself wrongly (sorry am not English) Just wanted to understand why and I do know now. My question has been answer. Thank You

rp_photo wrote:
These are two of my best where being tiny made it all work:

https://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/1 … 441d1a.jpg (18+)

You said she is tiny... so... I like the one where she poses on the toaster...

Anna Adrielle wrote:
funny, cause I know plenty of agencygirls that do fit work. including myself.

also, agencies don't work like that. bookings are bookings. the agency won't decide to "drop" the fitting job for the model once an editorial comes along. booked is booked.

I get that you had a great experience at agent provocateur. yeey. But like you said yourself: there were a lot of applicants for that job. Opportunities like that don't come around very often (because, like you said yourself how you worked with the for years, once they choose a fit model they tend to stick with it for a while), you kind of have to stumble upon them and then get very lucky. pretending otherwise is just not true.

sometimes they'll go for a girl that is completely not industrystandard for a fit model. Sometimes they'll go for totally fashionmodel standard (Dries Van Noten does this, he uses lissa Melis). Sometimes there's a bit of an overlap. A lot of times it's still a girl around 5'7ish or so. At 5'4 or whatever, chances of having a succesful career as a fitmodel are still really really REALLY small.

That suggests I worked in isolation form other fit models and that isn't true. My flatmate's partner was a fit model and actress and she is much shorter than I. It all depends entirely on body stats. So what are the chances of two fit models living together virtually if the chances are that slim? The truth is that there are thousands of fit models they are just not visible. In London anyway. Take a look round Brick Lane and the back of Oxford street. There are whole businesses there that just make samples, do alterations and maybe struggle with their own collections. Even they have fit models. I don't see any of them being inudstry standard in terms of fashion photography. And some of them do maybe half a dozen clients or are on call. Some get retainers. And one meets these girls both trhough fashion and art modelling because generally we do a bit of everything. I also have done fit for three other companies including my partner which is how I met him.

I said there were lots of applicants that were Agency signed . They didn't apply via their agencies. And they do drop out when something more glamorous comes along. So it's why they want freelancers who don't have such high aspiration and who they can keep for a long time and they be dedicated to the company. The design team at AP didn't work in isolation from the rest of the industry either so one gleans a lot of this from their experiences elsewhere. Which let's just say in some cases were 'significant'.

I don't think I was lucky as I applied for several other fit jobs with positive offers and throughout my time at AP was approached by several others. The 'truth' is that many models see it as a stop fill and that isn't what the companies want: they want commitment. And in return you get paid regularly and put on the payroll.

I was aksed once before to find fit models here and their stats and did so - there are a lot. Please don't make me do it again.

Think about it - everybody making clothes needs a fit model. I even saw an ad in the newspaper shop the other day from a local seamstress advertising for one for bridal wear standard size 12. There are thousands of jobs in this sector. They may not come up often but when they do if your stats are absolutely bang on and you demonstrate that you offer commitment and product knowledge etc then you have a good chance. Then yes in addition some get placed via agency and some even by specialist fit model agency. So there's plenty of work.

And that is just fit.

I think the problem here is that on MM you say 'Fashion' and because some photographers aspire to the top end they think that is what it is be all and end all. You know that isn't true.
So I don't know why you are fighting me on this. We aren't odd being non industry standard models who do some fashion and fit. It's the top end that is the abnormal.



Every city has boutiques. They nearly all do fashion shows, ads, and catalogues. Some even pay you to wear clothes to events be it Littletinyport fashion week or the races or a charity ball or a vintage event or even the village fete. Yes it happened once to me

Agency models are going to cost them too much and they feel often they don't get value for money in terms of loyalty. So once they find a local model they use you over and over.
Have a look at ports on MM. You will see hundreds of models doing a bit of fashion at this level. Because that is where there is plenty of work for freelancers. I applied for a casting last week and got it and I was the only model in Swansea that applied for it. It's a major city. All the other applicants were from Cardiff. A boutique job like most of the work around here but the photographer is excellent and actually works doing fashion and other products all over. Well published. He has done some top level stuff but for the most part this is his bread and butter too.

To many of the photographers and models here this isn't fashion. It is lowly. My assertion is that this is actually what being a model making a living from modelling fashion is all about for the vast majority of models not the elite. You are still up against tall agency girls but like I said they aren't going to look at £100 for an all day shoot for ten hours. I and other models work our butts off for that. On the odd time I work alongside agency girls I hear constantly they get two or three jobs a year and ask me how I am always working at these events every time they go. I have been able to help a few. Some girls have put ports up here. Some of those girls have their eyes set on the top and some just want to work like myself for some extra money and because they enjoy fashion.

Much of this work does not involve photography. Take this one for example:



Yep they put your hair up to match the other models it isn't rocket science. By the time the hair stylist had finished with me and the other models at AP's show too we were all the same height.

Now there I am modelling for a local boutique at a fashion show. The lady I am talking to is designer Gil Harvey. she is the creative behind After Six and Medici. Those names may not mean much to the person who thinks fashion is all about Kate Moss and Vogue. But they are what constututes fashion for ladies who lunch when they aren't buying their one Chanel suit a year all over the UK.

I am wearing a jacket by designer label Bandalera. Now they market their clothing - and very nice it is too - to boutiques all over the UK. They also supply images for ads. But people boutiques want to do it their own way to look individual so they do their own shoots and shows. And that is where models like me come in. They don't have a forty grand budget to do a show four times a year. They have a grand a show four times a year. They will use maybe one agency model (not via the agency) a couple or four freelancers, the boutique owners nieces and the Lord Mayor's grandaughter and three clients who are thrilled to bits to be asked. THAT is the reality of fashion. Now I will not have photographers and models looking down their nose at it because they think fashion is all about Vogue when thousands of us - and I would suggest the vast majority of photographers too - make a living full or part time through this kind of work. And such shows are important enough for designers like Gil Harvey to actually come down from London and supervise.

And foten at such shows the samples aren't even those made on the fit models they are just grabbed from the store. Their smallest sizes would drown 'industry standard' models.

Then you get people in this thread saying there aren't any viable fashion designers here. Well maybe not the kind that would be looking to employ big budget photographers and models but the rest of us find their money is good and the stuff they do nice. There aren't any boutiques here at all - but there are tens of thousands of 'viable' boutiques just in the UK all needing models - and photographers - from time to time. NONE of them advertise or have editorial in Vogue but they do in the local magazines. It is a colossal market and I would say consitututes the bulk of the fashion buisness. The haute couture business at top level  is fantasy stuff that makes a loss and is in reality a cover for actually selling perfume.

Now those who aren't interested in any of that work fine. Leave it all to us on MM who haven't got our eyes on being the next Kate Moss and lauigh at America's next top model think what we do is still a nice gig. If it's lowly for some of you and you have aspirations to top level editorial etc good luck to you. But don't call that 'the fashion industry' because it is just a tiny part of it. And even more what makes me angry is the fact that we get 'ah you're only 5ft 6 so get your tits out or you have no chance'. Because that is nonsense. And that is coming from someone that doesn't have a problem with fine art nude.

So my advice to models here of all sizes who want to do fashion is set your aims realistically. Learn as much as you can and research the history of fashion, learn about cut and drape, Take a nightclass in drapery. Volunteer to work for a local seamstress or take a sales job in a boutique if you can't get a job as a fit model. Go to a life drawing class and draw or pose. Take an interest in vintage clothing an even maybe shoot some vintage garments for your local ebay vintage vendor. Make sure you have a good port incorporating what you have learned and at least a couple of fashion images from any jobs you have done. Knowing how to show off clothing has a value that will often give you an edge over taller models who haven't that background. Then pound the streets to your local boutiques. Take an interest in the clothes, maybe buy something small , introduce yourself and hand out your z card. The z card links to your port here. You may do this ten times and get one job a month down the line. But then you are doing a shoot for the local mag. Then you do a fashion show. Then the boutique next door wants you too.  Then you meet the photographer and he gives you odd jobs too. Photographers who aren't busy shooting Vogue or want to be, or shooting £20k campaign shoots, do this too. It is bread and butter just like the business small designers and boutiques are doing worth billions to the economy and employing thousands of people between them are doing too. And take no notice of the snobs here if you want it there is work there for a variety of shapes and sizes because the fashion industry sells clothes for women of all sizes not just high end photography which is actually selling perfume. If you actually look at the ports of thousands of professional models here - including you Anna - you will see what I am saying is true. BUT - and here Anna's point is valid - if you want to be doing editorial photography at 5ft 4ins forget it. But that to me is only the pinnacle of a colossal pyramid of work that an awful lot of people are turning their nose up at.

Eliza C wrote:
Think about it - everybody making clothes needs a fit model. I even saw an ad in the newspaper shop the other day from a local seamstress advertising for one for bridal wear standard size 12. There are thousands of jobs in this sector. They may not come up often but when they do if your stats are absolutely bang on and you demonstrate that you offer commitment and product knowledge etc then you have a good chance. Then yes in addition some get placed via agency and some even by specialist fit model agency. So there's plenty of work.

It's one thing if you're talking your part of the world. However, it could be a different story in Paris, Milan, NYC, Miami, LA just to name a few. What make you think those thousands of jobs you talk about will be open to the general public? Many times, those position will be filled by those in-house before going outside the company. Last time I check, fashion industry is a competitive business, and it is as hard to break into as me finding Super Bowl tickets that aren't price at $1,000. Applying for a job is one thing. Getting an offer for the job is another thing.

Eliza C wrote:
Every city has boutiques. They nearly all do fashion shows, ads, and catalogues. Some even pay you to wear clothes to events be it Little tiny port fashion week or the races or a charity ball or a vintage event or even the village fete. Yes it happened once to me

Ever heard of the phrase "Past Performance doesn't guarantee future success?" I read how you got to Agent Provocateur. That's a nice story. However, I doubt the path that took you there will be available either now or the future. Also, not all boutiques are the same. Boutique A doesn't have the money to afford agency models like Boutique B, so they hire local models to model their brand. That doesn't take into account the each company's history, and the brand recognition of the 2. They kind of model Boutique A hires may not be the same as the models Boutique hires. Then again, Fashion/Modeling Business is not a democracy under circumstances.

Eliza C wrote:
Agency models are going to cost them too much and they feel often they don't get value for money in terms of loyalty. So once they find a local model they use you over and over.

That would be the cast if you're talking about small boutiques and local company. The same can't be said if the business is a national brand or multinational company. There's a quote from the film Hustle and Flow that goes, "If you want quality, quality costs!" If a company feels paying a king's ransom for an agency model will help grow their brand grow, so be it. It's there money, and they're feel to spend whatever way possible.

Moore Photo Graphix wrote:
It's one thing if you're talking your part of the world. However, it could be a different story in Paris, Milan, NYC, Miami, LA just to name a few. What make you think those thousands of jobs you talk about will be open to the general public? Many times, those position will be filled by those in-house before going outside the company. Last time I check, fashion industry is a competitive business, and it is as hard to break into as me finding Super Bowl tickets that aren't price at $1,000. Applying for a job is one thing. Getting an offer for the job is another thing.

Yes they are filled by word of mouth often. I recommended the girl who followed me for example. That is the nature of the employment world. You don't see jobs as profesional footballers advertised often - ever - but that doesn't stop tens of thousands being paid to play professional football the vast majority at lower levels. The fact that they are rarely visible to the public doesn't stop thousands working in a particular field. And I have seen fit model jobs advertised on couture company websites in Paris and Milan because I applied.

Moore Photo Graphix wrote:
That would be the cast if you're talking about small boutiques and local company. The same can't be said if the business is a national brand or multinational company. There's a quote from the film Hustle and Flow that goes, "If you want quality, quality costs!" If a company feels paying a king's ransom for an agency model will help grow their brand grow, so be it. It's there money, and they're feel to spend whatever way possible.

Agent Provocateur is not a local company. Like many similar fashion companies they have in house models. Well before the advent of modern photography all fashion houses big and small employed such fit models and still do. Even department stores did until relatively recently. Now that work when it happens goes to agencies as they don't do fashion shows daily for ladies who lunch any more. I have done the odd one and know a lot of girls who do a lot of it. It is called 'showroom' modelling and can take place to franchise operators in house, to buyers, at trade shows, and to wine and fashion evenings at designers and boutique retail to public and trade outlets. My partner for example and a couple of other stores/designers at racecourse shops I work for. They may have a coat that costs £1500. They have one size its size 10 and a client is a size 16 and likes it. They call me I am there in a minute  try it on and spin it round and talk about it. She orders suitably impressed. They don't use me they don't sell it it is that simple. Or they may want to get a new hat in the local paper. I get it in the Daily Telgeraph the Guardian and Marie Claire too. They give it to me I make sure it's done. So we have a value. And we work in the shadows.

But of course the in house models don't do the bulk of catalogue work or campaign work. That is farmed out and becomes the responsibility frequently of an entirely different company. Yes that is the way of the corporate world. Pass the buck to the best. If it goes wrong it's their fault. If it goes right they get more work through succesful campaigns. That is not the job of the fashion house any more than the kitchen cooker company comes up with their campaign. And I am not after or expect that business and of course those budgets you have the best available people doing it. Same goes for photographers. But I doubt the in house photographers at AP are bothered either. Or the photographer around the corner who gets the call to do the wesbite update and gets an Agency model and styling team ushered in. He isn't bothered about £20k campaign shoots and Vogue editorials either. He only just finished shooting me getting on a train for a poster for South West Trains and he's shooting a fridge later and a wedding the next day. We aren't all big shots either models or photographers because we do a bit of fashion. It is the journeyman stuff most of us do and get irritated that we are told we don't exist because we aren't in Vogue because we aren't 5ft 10 and only get published as photographers on websites and posters and in catalogues.

However; local boutiques and small designers provide a vast amount of work to models precisely because they don't have huge budgets necessary for agency models to do a show or for a big campaign. That is tens of thousands of concerns in the fashion business all needing models but can't afford agency ones. There's a hundred quid for the model. So we get it here on MM as the agencies turn their noses up at it. Often the agency models won't though they are after it too and have ports here on the sly. They are 5ft 8 and twenty years old I am 5ft 6ins and thirty one. However; I have some things up my sleeve that they don't. So I get the odd job. Yes even us small fry work on 'brand' sometimes. Hence once I got turned down at a casting and the designer brought me on as a subsititute late on and wasn't very polite to the photographer when finding out he had turned me down. Sometimes of course that works the other way too. Sometimes the photographer wants the model and the designer/boutique doesn't. C'est la vie. It's competitive but eveyone wants ane expects something different. If you are industry standard as a model you have a greater chance of better paid work at an elite level but the water is just fine down here I can do without the pressure. And nobody much has been bothered about my height. I expect some photographers may turn me down because I am not 6ft but I get enough for what I want.

MelissaAnn  wrote:

+1  tall= more impressive in clothes.  Making arguements that are contrary to reality is a waste of time.

There is no  scientific proof for that !

Eliza C wrote:
That suggests I worked in isolation form other fit models and that isn't true. My flatmate's partner was a fit model and actress and she is much shorter than I. It all depends entirely on body stats. So what are the chances of two fit models living together virtually if the chances are that slim? The truth is that there are thousands of fit models they are just not visible. In London anyway. Take a look round Brick Lane and the back of Oxford street. There are whole businesses there that just make samples, do alterations and maybe struggle with their own collections. Even they have fit models. I don't see any of them being inudstry standard in terms of fashion photography. And some of them do maybe half a dozen clients or are on call. Some get retainers. And one meets these girls both trhough fashion and art modelling because generally we do a bit of everything. I also have done fit for three other companies including my partner which is how I met him.

I said there were lots of applicants that were Agency signed . They didn't apply via their agencies. And they do drop out when something more glamorous comes along. So it's why they want freelancers who don't have such high aspiration and who they can keep for a long time and they be dedicated to the company. The design team at AP didn't work in isolation from the rest of the industry either so one gleans a lot of this from their experiences elsewhere. Which let's just say in some cases were 'significant'.

I don't think I was lucky as I applied for several other fit jobs with positive offers and throughout my time at AP was approached by several others. The 'truth' is that many models see it as a stop fill and that isn't what the companies want: they want commitment. And in return you get paid regularly and put on the payroll.

I was aksed once before to find fit models here and their stats and did so - there are a lot. Please don't make me do it again.

Think about it - everybody making clothes needs a fit model. I even saw an ad in the newspaper shop the other day from a local seamstress advertising for one for bridal wear standard size 12. There are thousands of jobs in this sector. They may not come up often but when they do if your stats are absolutely bang on and you demonstrate that you offer commitment and product knowledge etc then you have a good chance. Then yes in addition some get placed via agency and some even by specialist fit model agency. So there's plenty of work.

And that is just fit.

I think the problem here is that on MM you say 'Fashion' and because some photographers aspire to the top end they think that is what it is be all and end all. You know that isn't true.
So I don't know why you are fighting me on this. We aren't odd being non industry standard models who do some fashion and fit. It's the top end that is the abnormal.



Every city has boutiques. They nearly all do fashion shows, ads, and catalogues. Some even pay you to wear clothes to events be it Littletinyport fashion week or the races or a charity ball or a vintage event or even the village fete. Yes it happened once to me

Agency models are going to cost them too much and they feel often they don't get value for money in terms of loyalty. So once they find a local model they use you over and over.
Have a look at ports on MM. You will see hundreds of models doing a bit of fashion at this level. Because that is where there is plenty of work for freelancers. I applied for a casting last week and got it and I was the only model in Swansea that applied for it. It's a major city. All the other applicants were from Cardiff. A boutique job like most of the work around here but the photographer is excellent and actually works doing fashion and other products all over. Well published. He has done some top level stuff but for the most part this is his bread and butter too.

To many of the photographers and models here this isn't fashion. It is lowly. My assertion is that this is actually what being a model making a living from modelling fashion is all about for the vast majority of models not the elite. You are still up against tall agency girls but like I said they aren't going to look at £100 for an all day shoot for ten hours. I and other models work our butts off for that. On the odd time I work alongside agency girls I hear constantly they get two or three jobs a year and ask me how I am always working at these events every time they go. I have been able to help a few. Some girls have put ports up here. Some of those girls have their eyes set on the top and some just want to work like myself for some extra money and because they enjoy fashion.

Much of this work does not involve photography. Take this one for example:



Yep they put your hair up to match the other models it isn't rocket science. By the time the hair stylist had finished with me and the other models at AP's show too we were all the same height.

Now there I am modelling for a local boutique at a fashion show. The lady I am talking to is designer Gil Harvey. she is the creative behind After Six and Medici. Those names may not mean much to the person who thinks fashion is all about Dean Johnson and Vogue. But they are what constututes fashion for ladies who lunch when they aren't buying their one Chanel suit a year all over the UK.

I am wearing a jacket by designer label Bandalera. Now they market their clothing - and very nice it is too - to boutiques all over the UK. They also supply images for ads. But people boutiques want to do it their own way to look individual so they do their own shoots and shows. And that is where models like me come in. They don't have a forty grand budget to do a show four times a year. They have a grand a show four times a year. They will use maybe one agency model (not via the agency) a couple or four freelancers, the boutique owners nieces and the Lord Mayor's grandaughter and three clients who are thrilled to bits to be asked. THAT is the reality of fashion. Now I will not have photographers and models looking down their nose at it because they think fashion is all about Vogue when thousands of us - and I would suggest the vast majority of photographers too - make a living full or part time through this kind of work. And such shows are important enough for designers like Gil Harvey to actually come down from London and supervise.

And foten at such shows the samples aren't even those made on the fit models they are just grabbed from the store. Their smallest sizes would drown 'industry standard' models.

Then you get people in this thread saying there aren't any viable fashion designers here. Well maybe not the kind that would be looking to employ big budget photographers and models but the rest of us find their money is good and the stuff they do nice. There aren't any boutiques here at all - but there are tens of thousands of 'viable' boutiques just in the UK all needing models - and photographers - from time to time. NONE of them advertise or have editorial in Vogue but they do in the local magazines. It is a colossal market and I would say consitututes the bulk of the fashion buisness. The haute couture business at top level  is fantasy stuff that makes a loss and is in reality a cover for actually selling perfume.

Now those who aren't interested in any of that work fine. Leave it all to us on MM who haven't got our eyes on being the next Dean Johnson and lauigh at America's next top model think what we do is still a nice gig. If it's lowly for some of you and you have aspirations to top level editorial etc good luck to you. But don't call that 'the fashion industry' because it is just a tiny part of it. And even more what makes me angry is the fact that we get 'ah you're only 5ft 6 so get your tits out or you have no chance'. Because that is nonsense. And that is coming from someone that doesn't have a problem with fine art nude.

So my advice to models here of all sizes who want to do fashion is set your aims realistically. Learn as much as you can and research the history of fashion, learn about cut and drape, Take a nightclass in drapery. Volunteer to work for a local seamstress or take a sales job in a boutique if you can't get a job as a fit model. Go to a life drawing class and draw or pose. Take an interest in vintage clothing an even maybe shoot some vintage garments for your local ebay vintage vendor. Make sure you have a good port incorporating what you have learned and at least a couple of fashion images from any jobs you have done. Knowing how to show off clothing has a value that will often give you an edge over taller models who haven't that background. Then pound the streets to your local boutiques. Take an interest in the clothes, maybe buy something small , introduce yourself and hand out your z card. The z card links to your port here. You may do this ten times and get one job a month down the line. But then you are doing a shoot for the local mag. Then you do a fashion show. Then the boutique next door wants you too.  Then you meet the photographer and he gives you odd jobs too. Photographers who aren't busy shooting Vogue or want to be, or shooting £20k campaign shoots, do this too. It is bread and butter just like the business small designers and boutiques are doing worth billions to the economy and employing thousands of people between them are doing too. And take no notice of the snobs here if you want it there is work there for a variety of shapes and sizes because the fashion industry sells clothes for women of all sizes not just high end photography which is actually selling perfume. If you actually look at the ports of thousands of professional models here - including you Anna - you will see what I am saying is true. BUT - and here Anna's point is valid - if you want to be doing editorial photography at 5ft 4ins forget it. But that to me is only the pinnacle of a colossal pyramid of work that an awful lot of people are turning their nose up at.

LOL - Eliza - you know, if you devoted 1/10th the amount of time and effort on 'productive' pursuits that you do when responding to 'pointless' MM Forum threads... you could probably conquer the world.

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
LOL - Eliza - you know, if you devoted 1/10th the amount of time and effort on 'productive' pursuits that you do when responding to 'pointless' MM Forum threads... you could probably conquer the world.

Yes but sometimes it's nice just to help people. I have no interest in world domination ha ha. I know what it is like to be a struggling model and if I can help others gain some work by setting realistic goals and having as much fun in fashion going in through the back door as I did that's my reward. And I have lots of lovely emails and cards from models -and photographers and designers and boutiques - who I have helped in that way.

Last night I thought - we are talking about two different things here. Fashion ....and fashion campaign and editorial photography for which an elite work in. So hence I thought I would spend a copuple of hours trying to explain the kind of work the rest of us do as thousands of girls get gainful employment through these avenues especially on MM. We aren't Dean Johnson but it's nice when you get paid to be in a local magazine ad or do a fashion show for a boutique. A lot of people don't know that world exists.

I have students now so I just had a couple of hours to kill but not enough time to get engrossed in my research anyway. Be sure I am productive in other areas  x

ChiMo wrote:
Depending on who you talk to, between 50% and 80% of
communication is done through body language.

So one could think of those taller models as having a much
louder "voice" on the printed page.

Eliza C wrote:
They are all A4 on the printed page.

Within the frame there is a visual difference. Like that photo of Jordan I posted earlier. It's a form of communication with a sense of style within the frame
Think of it like this:
"You can't fool the children of the revolution . . . "
vs.
"YOU CAN'T FOOL THE CHILDREN OF THE REVOLUTION . . . ."

Same size page but they read differently. Bodies do the same thing. The space between, and the length of, the limbs, neck fingers etc. create shapes that communicate. Sweeping lines that say things that we subconsciously interpret.

ChiMo wrote:
Within the frame there is a visual difference. Like that photo of Jordan I posted earlier. It's a form of communication with a sense of style within the frame
Think of it like this:
"You can't fool the children of the revolution . . . "
vs.
"YOU CAN'T FOOL THE CHILDREN OF THE REVOLUTION . . . ."

Same size page but they read differently. Bodies do the same thing. The space between, and the length of, the limbs, neck fingers etc. create shapes that communicate. Sweeping lines that say things that we subconsciously interpret.

I think that isn't a very good anology for you. People aren't in block capitals and small type. They come in all kinds of scripts and sometimes one script that is smaller can make a stronger statement than a bigger one.

Look at my port and tell me you have a problem understanding the angles I produce are bold. Look at these:
WARNING 18 plus:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/10033161
https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/9380973

Those two images were printed out when I went for my interview at AP. So I guess they are looking at those aesthetic factors too understood. So why did I get the job over taller models? Some of them I have to say very beautiful. I was surprised to get it.

Given that some taller models simply won't have the joint suppleness yoga training and understanding of gesture that I do how will she do a better job? IF she could I have no problem you using her over me. But frequently that isn't the case on the very grounds you advocate as the decider. So height can be a factor in that but height alone doesn't make a model's ability to communicate and quite a few tall models would not be able to do do so as effectively as a smaller one.



It is a better analogy that I used with horses. There was a favour forty years ago for big old fashioned steeplechasers. They cover the ground an gallop relentlessly and jumps can be small to them. However the smaller French horses have now come more into fashion. They have a turn of foot and get away from the jumps more quickly. Both are now used. Compare for example Kauto Star and Denman from the same stable both have won Gold Cups and they are entirely different shapes. Their body shapes have been bred/evolved for both boldness and economy of purpose.

So it's horses for courses.

Likewise with models. I may not make the bold leap over the fence that a taller girl would but I will get into it lower land running and get away from it more quickly That has great application in heels Seriously some tall girls find them difficult and don't walk well. Effortlessness counts for much in your aesthetics.

Economy of movement can be more difficult for a taller animal. Some tall models can make those shapes well : their calves alone can be long and elegant before they even start so can sometimes do it apprently efortlessly. Yes when that happens I agree. But not always. Some are awkward. So I get where you are coming from but they can't always do with them what a smaller girl can.


Now the reason I don't get work at a higher level is nothing to do with my body shape or my ability to make bold angles because I think I hold my own there. It's to do with I haven't got the face/look for it. Devon Aoki has so she does it despite her height.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Why are you asking?  The vast majority of models I shoot are 5' 7" or shorter. 
It wasn't always that way, but since the Internet came to be, I don't care about height. 
In fact, I tend to prefer shooting with shorter models.  They make other things look
bigger around them, especially cars.  Every guy likes to think he has the biggest ... car!
Every single model in my portfolio is shorter than 5' 9"  ... every one of them!

Most average about 5' 4"  ... must be the Asian blood?   

Ok, so I think this thread has established the following, already well known, info:

height requirements for industry standard fashion models = 5'9" +

height requirements for web modeling = N/A

Seems pretty straight forward to me. Or am I missing something?

DennisRoliffPhotography wrote:
Ok, so I think this thread has established the following, already well known, info:

height requirements for industry standard fashion models = 5'9" +

height requirements for web modeling = N/A

Seems pretty straight forward to me. Or am I missing something?

That would be the requirement for editorial fashion photography and runway and for Agencies as a general rule.
It is not the requirement for all fashion or even the bulk of it.
I was not an internet model I worked in house for a couture company. As do many of my colleagues. And thousands of us work in various niches and for small designers and boutiques. There is still a preferred height but it isn't as rigid. I have put a lengthy post above because it seems some still have trouble undertsanding that the fashion industry is massive and all they think about is Vogue at the very top which is actually the abnormal and the elite. Many of you don't see the rest but the post above is for your help in understanding that it is the mainstream and employs far more models than the top agencies do.

So what we have is.

A huge party at a massive house.
Models rock up at the front door and the doorman says you aren't coming in you aren't 5ft 9ins.
They go away disappointed and become internet models or they join us round the back door and work in the kitchens. If you are good at that you get to go to some of the future parties if you are lucky. Otherwise who cares I get paid more in the kitchen than half the models in the ball. But here's the thing. The industry is actually everything that goes on in the house and on the estate day in day out not just at the season ball. And we models who you think have no chance to be in Vogue so should go off and be internet models are actually employed in that which you do not see. So it's like the blind men and the elephant. Up to you whether you want to think the whole is just the trunk.

Eliza C wrote:

No I am not.

I am saying that the industry regards taller llamas with less curves as not necessarily suitable for lingerie and swimwear. That doesn't mean I think it and there are notable exceptions to that just as there are shorter llamas working on runways that carry clothes particularly well despite their lack of height.

...
That isn't an insult to anyone.

I pasted above what I was responding too. Perhaps you do not feel that saying to someone that they look like they haven't got "an arse can look shit...." is not insulting or is calling them an androgenous clothes horse too.

ChiMo wrote:
Depending on who you talk to, between 50% and 80% of
communication is done through body language.

So one could think of those taller models as having a much
louder "voice" on the printed page.

The stat I remember most is that 63% of our communication is non-verbal, (learned in a Spanish for health care professionals course at the Univeristy of Illinois at Chicago where I was going at the time.)

Jen

ChiMo II wrote:
Done with this.

I made reasonable points.

You are entitled to choose taller models as you are blonde for example. But that doesn't mean it is a universally accepted aesthetic. I have given you a brief hsitory of why taller models came into fashion. That is what it is. There may be some aesthetic priciples at play that are valid and that is why it is so. But they are not universal and there are exceptions and counter supporting reasons that many clients in fashion are willing to take into account. It's harder but not impossible.

Eliza C wrote:

They are made on fit models.
Who are often not tall and not so slim. I agree that the designs will look better on taller slim girls on a runway who 'float them down' - generally that isn't an issue.
BUT what is an issue is that most of the fit models I know aren't so tall so the idea that samples are made for tall girls is often not valid.


...

A friend of mine in Chicago was a fit model, (I think she did well for herself.) She was 5'8" and a perfect size 8.
Jen

Cy_n wrote:
There is no  scientific proof for that !

There is no scientific "proof" as to what makes a person visually beautiful either, but most people can pick a stud from a dud. It doesn't take scientific proof for that. An entire industry and their respective experts have come up with a standard for what they deem to be attractive for llamaing clothing. Whether you like that or not, that's the rules of the game as decided upon by the people who run it. So you have three choices if you don't like that...

1) Sit and pout about it.
2) Accept this reality and find another line of work.
3) Create another industry to compete with this and become more successful than they are.

And dont tell me that #3 can't be done either because it's done all the time. I've had the pleasure of speaking with Richard Branson on more than one occasion and he told me that his business llama has always been to find an industry that is run for years by "experts" who don't get it right and then do it all together differently and succeed. It's made him billions so who am I to argue?

MyrnaByrna wrote:
I pasted above what I was responding too. Perhaps you do not feel that saying to someone that they look like they haven't got "an arse can look shit...." is not insulting or is calling them an androgenous clothes horse too.

I did not address it to you. We have people calling us short arses in this thread we don't take it personal.

The simple fact is industry standard with swimwear and lingerie can be a couple of inches shorter for the reasons. That doesn't mean every tall girl has no bum or boobs or that their arms will look too long. But sometimes that will be a factor and hence the industry standard is smaller.

However if it's a loose flowing elegant dress it is going to look better without curves holding that up. That's a fact hence why the body shape is preferred for such clothes. Whereas a retro clothing maker will want curves in their pencil skirt. Sometimes the tall model has them too but often they don't. No insult intended to anyone. Stas are waist bust and hips too not just height and some body shapes are good for some clothes and some for others. Pointing that out is not an insult. I am too much of a shortie to model a long dress on a runway for sure.

Shot By Adam wrote:

There is no scientific "proof" as to what makes a person visually beautiful either, but most people can pick a stud from a dud. It doesn't take scientific proof for that. An entire industry and their respective experts have come up with a standard for what they deem to be attractive for modeling clothing. Whether you like that or not, that's the rules of the game as decided upon by the people who run it. So you have three choices if you don't like that...

1) Sit and pout about it.
2) Accept this reality and find another line of work.
3) Create another industry to compete with this and become more successful than they are.

And dont tell me that #3 can't be done either because it's done all the time. I've had the pleasure of speaking with Richard Branson on more than one occasion and he told me that his business model has always been to find an industry that is run for years by "experts" who don't get it right and then do it all together differently and succeed. It's made him billions so who am I to argue?

You left out 4.

4. Work in realistic avenues in fashion such as fitting modelling, small designers, boutiques, swimwear , lingerie, jewellery, millinery, petite, outsize, lifestyle and local magazines and ads, retro, vintage, bridal wear, mature market, alternative, latex etc ect etc. That is going to employ far more models than the bit at the top which is highly competitive and therfore can afford to set the standards the bulk of the industry and its diversity doesn't.

ChiMo II wrote:
I'm not talking about fit modeling. At all.

Done with this.

yes, please

MyrnaByrna wrote:
A friend of mine in Chicago was a fit model, (I think she did well for herself.) She was 5'8" and a perfect size 8.
Jen

yes I know some that are 5ft 11" too and a perfect 9 (UK) . So you see its the stats not the height. The height is irrelevant of you are the body shape they are looking for. I also know some that are 5ft 2"

Eliza C wrote:
...I don't think I was lucky as I applied for several other fit jobs with positive offers and throughout my time at AP was approached by several others. The 'truth' is that many models see it as a stop fill and that isn't what the companies want: they want commitment. And in return you get paid regularly and put on the payroll.

I was aksed once before to find fit models here and their stats and did so - there are a lot. Please don't make me do it again.

... If you actually look at the ports of thousands of professional models here - including you Anna - you will see what I am saying is true. BUT - and here Anna's point is valid - if you want to be doing editorial photography at 5ft 4ins forget it. But that to me is only the pinnacle of a colossal pyramid of work that an awful lot of people are turning their nose up at.

Oh, I think I get it. It seems like rather than just come outright and speak kudos for your genre of modeling you would rather talk badly about the other models who are in other genres. Yet, here it finally makes sense that you are more of an advocate for fit modeling. Sure wish you'd have said that in the first place.

I couldn't be a fit model and I sure wanted that gig. My friend got it and raved about it when we were in our 20's.



FWIW though, I am not walking down any catwalks other than very small local ones...I'm 46. Sure though, my hips did get a little wider with age but, when younger, (twenty years ago...) when I was 34, 24, 34 they looked like this: https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/30735545

My comments here about being a "real" woman are true though and I do not believe it is necessary to rip anyone else down in order to build yourself or genre up. [edit to add after reading] Its not necessary to rip in any direction either so for everyone calling folks under 5'9" as shorties or short arses that is instigating as well. I didn't realize you were replying directly to that comment before. It makes sense now.
Jen
edit again though because: Eliza you keep making your point by putting taller models down, I disagree with puting 'any' model-genre down

Eliza C wrote:
...
Given that some taller models simply won't have the joint suppleness yoga training and understanding of gesture that I do how will she do a better job?

... So height can be a factor in that but height alone doesn't make a model's ability to communicate and quite a few tall models would not be able to do do so as effectively as a smaller one.

It is a better analogy that I used with horses. ..Likewise with models. I may not make the bold leap over the fence that a taller girl would but I will get into it lower land running and get away from it more quickly That has great application in heels Seriously some tall girls find them difficult and don't walk well. Effortlessness counts for much in your aesthetics.

Economy of movement can be more difficult for a taller animal. Some tall models can make those shapes well : their calves alone can be long and elegant before they even start so can sometimes do it apprently efortlessly. Yes when that happens I agree. But not always. Some are awkward. So I get where you are coming from but they can't always do with them what a smaller girl can.

ChiMo II wrote:
I'm not talking about fit llamaing. At all.

Done with this.

Only one member is.   A few people have mentioned what smaller designers or boutiques do.   If you are booking llamas for a Lookbook or for runway for your store you still want to use standard sized llamas.   If you have a decent budget you'd be smart too use agency llamas as well.    Photographers on sites like MM who want too shoot fashion should consider largely using agency standard llamas.   Hobby shooters have more freedom.   If you are planning to go to agencies or show your book to real world clients then you really to show them real llamas and not 5' 2" beauty queens.   

That may seem harsh but its true.

MyrnaByrna wrote:

Oh, I think I get it. It seems like rather than just come outright and speak kudos for your genre of modeling you would rather talk badly about the other models who are in other genres. Yet, here it finally makes sense that you are more of an advocate for fit modeling. Sure wish you'd have said that in the first place.

I couldn't be a fit model and I sure wanted that gig. My friend got it and raved about it when we were in our 20's.



FWIW though, I am not walking down any catwalks other than very small local ones...I'm 46. Sure though, my hips did get a little wider with age but, when younger, (twenty years ago...) when I was 34, 24, 34 they looked like this: https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/30735545

My comments here about being a "real" woman are true though and I do not believe it is necessary to rip anyone else down in order to build yourself or genre up. [edit to add after reading] Its not necessary to rip in any direction either so for everyone calling folks under 5'9" as shorties or short arses that is instigating as well. I didn't realize you were replying directly to that comment before. It makes sense now.
Jen

Where have I said taller models are not real women? I realise that others say it but I haven't. In fact Stefano will bear me out that I have frequently attacked those that attack thin models.

What I have said is that the industyry standard for lingerie and swimwear is generally shorter and the reasons why. BUT there are excpetions there too. I don't think I could model a dress made for soeone tall and I don't think a slim model without a butt can do a pencil skirt justice. But some tall models have good rears too. So it's shape that is taken into account as well as height. But the lower height requirements for swimwear and lingerie are generally because most don't have that shape that is required. There is no insulting anyone.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Only one member is.   A few people have mentioned what smaller designers or boutiques do.   If you are booking models for a Lookbook or for runway for your store you still want to use standard sized models.   If you have a decent budget you'd be smart too use agency models as well.    Photographers on sites like MM who want too shoot fashion should consider largely using agency standard models.   Hobby shooters have more freedom.   If you are planning to go to agencies or show your book to real world clients then you really to show them real models and not 5' 2" beauty queens.   

That may seem harsh but its true.

5ft 2" is an extreme but if your client is making clothing dfor peite sizes it's still possible and recall when I pulled the fit model here in the other thread for VS who is 5ft 2".

Now IF you are talking about fashion modelling purely in the sense of editorial and campaign photography at high fashion or corporate store modelling then your points are valid. However the bulk of modelling in fashion simply isn't either. Every bouique uses modes. Every one making quiality clothing uses fit models. Every clothing wholsealer needs models for trade shows. The truth is agencies are often too pricey for all that. If it was not so I would not have ever got a job and neither would the dozens of other models who have done fashion work in previous threads or the dozens I have pulled from the search to demonstrate that.

However this is MODEL mayhem not fashion editorial mayhem and if a model wants to work in fashion fit is a good way in. There is sometimes a height requirement but not often. This is a perfectly valid area of modelling. Just because it is nothing to do with you doesn't mean you or ChiMo can look down your nose at it.

One thing for sure is that the many fit models here make a living at their job in the fashion industry. That is better than aspiring to do something at a higher level and not actually ever working in it. That may seem harsh but it's true.

udor wrote:

... and people like you is where her "market" is and there is nothing wrong with it.

exactly

Eliza C wrote:

5ft 2" is an extreme but if your client is making clothing dfor peite sizes it's still possible and recall when I pulled the fit model here in the other thread for VS who is 5ft 2".

Now IF you are talking about fashion modelling purely in the sense of editorial and campaign photography at high fashion or corporate store modelling then your points are valid. However the bulk of modelling in fashion simply isn't either. Every bouique uses modes. Every one making quiality clothing uses fit models. Every clothing wholsealer needs models for trade shows. The truth is agencies are often too pricey for all that. If it was not so I would not have ever got a job and neither would the dozens of other models who have done fashion work in previous threads or the dozens I have pulled from the search to demonstrate that.

However this is MODEL mayhem not fashion editorial mayhem and if a model wants to work in fashion fit is a good way in. There is sometimes a height requirement but not often. This is a perfectly valid area of modelling. Just because it is nothing to do with you doesn't mean you or ChiMo can look down your nose at it.

One thing for sure is that the many fit models here make a living at their job in the fashion industry. That is better than aspiring to do something at a higher level and not actually ever working in it. That may seem harsh but it's true.

I asked you privately not too respond to me after you called me a misogynist.   Now I'll say it in a open forum.   Please don't quote me.   Please pretend I don't exist.   I'll do the same for you.   So its totally clear.   I don't look down my nose at Fit models.   I do however look down on people who insult me.   You don't need to write a novel about what I did nor how wrong I am about what I do.

ChiMo II wrote:
I'm not talking about fit modeling. At all.

Done with this.

That is because for people like you it doesn't exist. You are only talking about the kind of editorial and campaign photography for which you do or aspire to.

But for shorter models who have a passion for fashion it is a good job and pays regularly and well. It all depends on shape - but every house and designer designs on different sizes. I noted a while back there was a job advertised with Stop Staring for a very large size fit model. 

As I said this is MODEL mayhem and all types of modelling are valid. And there is more to fashion modelling than what you are about and it needs sayiong regularly when models may want to consider it as an option when it is unlikley at that editorial level. People say it's boring blah blah but then that is fine but other may like it. I got to do runway through it so there is some glamorous moments but I liked it as a day in day out job anyway. The Op asked why 5ft 7 and you have replied. I replied to say that is not always the case. Fit, lingerie, swimwear, retro, alt , boutique and small designer etc etc etc do not have such strict height requirements and even some of the top models don't come up to your standard. You'd turn down Dean Johnson because she doesn't make big angles?

udor wrote:

Often overlooked or not taught by Barbizon!

I know right. LOL

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
My how these threads transgress. It reminds me of the game in elementary school where you line up all the students and the first student whispers a phrase, "Mary went to the store to buy rock candy." And by the time the last student repeats the phrase it has become, "Marty got hit by a rock on his way to Canberry."

The OP asked why shorter models can't make it in fashion. She is not talking about a model who aspires to be a fit model. That is not considered "making it" in the fashion industry by 99 out of 100 models. Of course, as we all know, Eliza C is that 1 who argues the point to no end.

MOST, if not all, aspiring models (especially ones questioning why shorter models can't be famous fashion models) are talking about the models who are featured in magazines and fashion shows - the KNOWN names.

To say that there are alternatives for shorter models is absurd. Of course there are. It has nothing to do with what the OP was questioning.

And for the love of God, Eliza, please, unless an OP is asking how to break into the Fitting Model industry, we implore you, stop with the novellas on your time at Agent Provocateur. Your world is a tiny niche of fashion. I don't think you aspired to that or believe that fitting models is the pinnacle of the fashion world. If you do, great.

Yes, that is an alternative for a model who might not be 5'9". Wonderful and a viable option.

But there is no one other person here who feels that being a fitting model behind the scenes is the definition of "making it in fashion" or even remotely what the OP meant.

No. The world YOU talk about is the tiny world of fashion which employs a highly select few. There is no chance of getting into that. And as a result many models languish with agencies and don't work often.


The truth is I will keep going until you understand that there are thousands of fit models EARNING A LIVING. Every design house employs them. Even student designers use us and pay. That is not a tiny niche of fashion it is a big area. Check the casting once in a while there are frequently fit jobs and I never see a job for Dior or Vogue. The truth is that fit modelling and boutique and small designer modelling  is what we can expect to do and do. Thousands of us here . Even the agency models when they work out the agency will only give them the odd job often.

I couldn't give a damn about the 99% of models who think they are going to be the next Dean Johnson and watch America's next top model. That has nothing to do with journeymen fashion modelling. Only the ones who actually want to model for a living at the kind of level you may consider 'not making it' are valid. Many models here struggle to make a living. I didn't. There is nothing special about me so I think others can find work in the ways I have stated. Screw 'not making it'. It's about making a humble anonymous living for most of us because we can.

Aby Sloan wrote:
Sorry to have created such big drama guys!!! I won't ever post on here anymore! But thanks for answering my question x

Aby you didn't do anything wrong and I would hate too think members stop posting because some debate the point endlessly.   You asked a fair question.   You look great and you have a nice figure but fashion modelling at least at the level of agency standard may not work for your height.   That shouldn't stop you from doing fashion shoots though.   Don't be shy about asking questions.

Anzhelika Yakimenko wrote:
To the original question:

Youre short.  Lets face it.  Youre not going to be a fashion/runway model.  But thats not the end of the world.  There's a whole modelling world out there aside from that.  Identify your strengths and work them.   Youre beautiful!  You can do well in glamour modelling.  Im tall and thin and I made a living for 10 years in Europe as a runway and fashion model.  I, however, dont really do so well in swimsuit modelling.  Not enough boobs.  No "body" is perfect for all genre.  You're very beautiful, just more suited to a different kind of work than me.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't see glamour either...to do a lot of mainstream full time doing nudes can help...and there's standards for glamour too...like curves...

Eliza C wrote:
No. The world YOU talk about is the tiny world of fashion which employs a highly select few. There is no chance of getting into that. And as a result many models languish with agencies and don't work often.


The truth is I will keep going until you understand that there are thousands of fit models EARNING A LIVING. Every design house employs them. Even student designers use us and pay. That is not a tiny niche of fashion it is a big area. Check the casting once in a while there are frequently fit jobs and I never see a job for Dior or Vogue. The truth is that fit modelling and boutique and small designer modelling  is what we can expect to do and do. Thousands of us here . Even the agency models when they work out the agency will only give them the odd job often.

I couldn't give a damn about the 99% of models who think they are going to be the next Dean Johnson and watch America's next top model. That has nothing to do with journeymen fashion modelling. Only the ones who actually want to model for a living at the kind of level you may consider 'not making it' are valid. Many models here struggle to make a living. I didn't. There is nothing special about me so I think others can find work in the ways I have stated. Screw 'not making it'. It's about making a humble anonymous living for most of us because we can.

Congrats Eliza, you've just earned the award for the biggest threadjack ever.  Everyone here is talking about *fashion* modeling- which is the type of modeling with the height requirement.  You're talking about *fit* modeling.  It's great that you don't give a damn about the fashion models, but you may want to accept that other people do, and that's what this thread was about....but apparently you're too thick to get that.....or too selfish to stop talking about yourself, and what you see as the most legitimate type of modeling- fit modeling.  So laughable.