Model
S. Stark
Posts: 13614
Los Angeles, California, US
Jessica Jones wrote:
Like it or not, being paid with money makes a hell of a difference. No one wants to work for free for hours and hours As someone who pays her rent in about three days of work, and is booked nearly every day (http://shandrastark.com/intro/booking.html)...as someone who makes her entire living as a freelance model, believe me when I say that trade shoots are not "free work"!
Mama don't work for free. I refuse.
Trade shoots offer something even better than a quick buck. With a trade shoot you should be getting:
*at least one of the best images you've ever made (which gets you PAYING work)
*at least one image that makes each of you insanely happy, on a personal/artistic level
*fun
If you view trade as a waste of time, you're doing it wrong.
Trade=value. That's why it's called trade, and not "free". If you feel you are getting zero value from a shoot where you are not paid in cash money, then it is not an even trade, and you should stop wasting peoples' time by being so bored at their shoots, OR, you should start recognizing the issue, and only set up trade shoots with people you feel add value to your hobbie/career/portfolio.
Photographer
Valenten Photography
Posts: 265
Conflans-Sainte-Honorine, Île-de-France, France
I like shoots that last about two hours. Usually it's enough to create a decent amount of nice pictures  Maybe 3h could be better, i need to try !
Model
S. Stark
Posts: 13614
Los Angeles, California, US
Jessica Jones wrote:
I agree, but If the shoot is TF and there aren't any MUA's or stylists and or multiple wardrobe changes then 3 hours is too long to shoot. For a TF shoot you don't need but about an hour, hour and a half maybe. You're not being paid cash, you both are only getting photos out of the deal and probably will only use about 5 of the photos out of the bunch anyway. Afterall, you dont go to work for 5 or 8 hours just to be paid with something that cant pay your bills lol I'm just sayin. Only getting photos? Why do you allow yourself to do any "trade" shoots, if this is how you view things? You either need to stop modeling entirely, or just stop setting up shoots that make you feel like someone is stealing from you.
Of course you don't go to work for 6-8 hours and go home with nothing. On a trade shoot, you SHOULD be going home with something more valuable than money- the opportunity to make MORE money. My images from trade shoots are like winning lottery tickets. Every image you see here that I have on MM (except for two), were all from trade shoots.
...you should never use as many as five images from the same shoots, unless they're all completely different looks.
Photographer
Rakesh Malik
Posts: 498
New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
vbabe wrote:
For those of you mentioning film and video, is it normal to spend 18-20 hours on a 5 minute scene? Just curious as a photographer I worked with mentioned he does this with video work. I was wondering if that was why he took 2 hours to shoot one pose while messing with his equipment 75% of the shoot. :-P It depends on the scene and how technically involved it is, but it's not uncommon to produce 2-3 minutes of usable video in a day's shooting.
On a PROPERLY managed set like what Hitchcock ran, the day would wrap at 8 hours.
Hollywood tends not to do that because Hollywood has the overtime + sweatshop culture. They get a LOT of overtime pay in Hollywood... and there's a reason that they so frequently end up spending vast amounts of time "fixing it in post" because they were too wiped out to get it right in camera, which almost always costs a lot less than post.
Model
Crystal Rose Modeling
Posts: 441
Sacramento, California, US
I had a great shoot today, despite getting up early. However, he wanted to do a swimwear outfit change as one of the outfits. It was around 10am and about 55 degrees. We were also shooting in the shade, so it was breezy. Maybe I am extra sensitive, but I need to be at least 65-70 degrees out to shoot swimwear comfortably. It would have actually been okay to shoot swimwear in the sun, but it was just too windy in the shade at 55 degrees and he didn't want to shoot in the sunny areas. He was cool and professional when I told him I would be uncomfortable and didn't want to show it in the images. By the time we were shooting for 3 hours, he suggested we do a 4th outfit change and by that time I said I had to get going. He wasn't offended or anything, but I think he took it to mean that I didn't enjoy the shoot, which I did. We had discussed length of shoot a few weeks back and he said about 3 hours. He wanted to do 6-8 outfit changes and at the rate we were going, we would have been shooting all day. (We did 3 outfit changes within that 3 hours). Since 3 hours was what we originally discussed, I don't think it was unprofessional to call it a day since it was TFP.
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US
I take advantage of my TFP shoots. If the model is open to shoot all day long i take it for what it's worth. But if the model only wants to shoot 1 hour or 2 hours what can you bo but accept it and work with it.
Photographer
Llobet Photography
Posts: 4915
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
Shandra Stark wrote:
As someone who pays her rent in about three days of work, and is booked nearly every day (http://shandrastark.com/intro/booking.html)...as someone who makes her entire living as a freelance model, believe me when I say that trade shoots are not "free work"!
Mama don't work for free. I refuse.
Trade shoots offer something even better than a quick buck. With a trade shoot you should be getting:
*at least one of the best images you've ever made (which gets you PAYING work)
*at least one image that makes each of you insanely happy, on a personal/artistic level
*fun
If you view trade as a waste of time, you're doing it wrong.
Trade=value. That's why it's called trade, and not "free". If you feel you are getting zero value from a shoot where you are not paid in cash money, then it is not an even trade, and you should stop wasting peoples' time by being so bored at their shoots, OR, you should start recognizing the issue, and only set up trade shoots with people you feel add value to your hobbie/career/portfolio. ^Love this^
Edit: I just realized this may be a zombie thread.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Valerie Kelly wrote:
I had a great shoot today, despite getting up early. However, he wanted to do a swimwear outfit change as one of the outfits. It was around 10am and about 55 degrees. We were also shooting in the shade, so it was breezy. Maybe I am extra sensitive, but I need to be at least 65-70 degrees out to shoot swimwear comfortably. It would have actually been okay to shoot swimwear in the sun, but it was just too windy in the shade at 55 degrees and he didn't want to shoot in the sunny areas. He was cool and professional when I told him I would be uncomfortable and didn't want to show it in the images. By the time we were shooting for 3 hours, he suggested we do a 4th outfit change and by that time I said I had to get going. He wasn't offended or anything, but I think he took it to mean that I didn't enjoy the shoot, which I did. We had discussed length of shoot a few weeks back and he said about 3 hours. He wanted to do 6-8 outfit changes and at the rate we were going, we would have been shooting all day. (We did 3 outfit changes within that 3 hours). Since 3 hours was what we originally discussed, I don't think it was unprofessional to call it a day since it was TFP. As a photographer who probably shoots about half the time outdoors ... I must say that too much wind is the biggest pain. I've called shoots "a wrap" or moved to another location because of environmental conditions such as wind and cold.
It does not seem "unprofessional" to me for you to "call it a wrap" at 3 hours on a TFP shoot. Typically my shoots last 2 to 3 hours ... regardless of being a TFP, or a paid shoot. Unless it's a paid shoot where we've agreed on a half day rate, I see reason for going past 3 hours.
Photographer
PhotographybyT
Posts: 7947
Monterey, California, US
It's obvious from the replies that people have different views and protocol regarding TF shoots. A few factors such as type of concept(s), number of locations, amount of outfit changes, hair and makeup, etc., will have an effect on how long a shoot will last.
My shortest TF shoot was about 3 hours while my longest one was about 9 hours, but my typical TF shoots probably last 4-6 hours (give or take) at a few locations. For me, a single location might take up 1 1/2 - 2 hours of time and shooting a specific outfit might take anywhere from 15-30 minutes, depending on the outfit and concept.
As previously mentioned, the time just seems to fly by and it can be quite fun...of course, depending on who you work with. (lol)
One more thing I want to add is that on a TF shoot, I (along with the model) don't need to rush or feel any pressure to meet any timelines so we can experiment or come up with other ideas while we're shooting. It really does open up the creative process and the results can quite often surprise you.
Photographer
Rp-photo
Posts: 42711
Houston, Texas, US
90 minutes to 2 hours not counting walking out and back to the location.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
PhotographybyT wrote:
It's obvious from the replies that people have different views and protocol regarding TF shoots. A few factors such as type of concept(s), number of locations, amount of outfit changes, hair and makeup, etc., will have an effect on how long a shoot will last.
My shortest TF shoot was about 3 hours while my longest one was about 9 hours, but my typical TF shoots probably last 4-6 hours (give or take) at a few locations. For me, a single location might take up 1 1/2 - 2 hours of time and shooting a specific outfit might take anywhere from 15-30 minutes, depending on the outfit and concept.
As previously mentioned, the time just seems to fly by and it can be quite fun...of course, depending on who you work with. (lol)
One more thing I want to add is that on a TF shoot, I (along with the model) don't need to rush or feel any pressure to meet any timelines so we can experiment or come up with other ideas while we're shooting. It really does open up the creative process and the results can quite often surprise you. No doubt! You and I are very different in regards to our time! I'm happy when I do a TFP at the beach that last a couple hours with that one golden hour of light before the sun goes down. It's rare that I go over 3 hours.
The longest I've gone is an 8 hour stretch from noon to 8 pm where we had changes of clothing, as well as locations close by, and a dinner break.
Photographer
PhotographybyT
Posts: 7947
Monterey, California, US
Patrick Walberg wrote:
No doubt! You and I are very different in regards to our time! I'm happy when I do a TFP at the beach that last a couple hours with that one golden hour of light before the sun goes down. It's rare that I go over 3 hours.
The longest I've gone is an 8 hour stretch from noon to 8 pm where we had changes of clothing, as well as locations close by, and a dinner break. I try not to spend too much time at the beach, especially if it's a sunny day, unless I want to look like a partial lobster! (lol) However, on a warm overcast day, I could spend half the day at the beach, but typically it's 2-3 hours for a beach location.
Since I don't schedule TF shoots that often I like to shoot a few concepts at different locations when I actually do get to shoot. I would rather have a longer shoot with more concepts and locations at one outing than have a few shorter shoots over the course of time with the same model....if that makes any sense.
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
If it's with someone new, 3-4 hours is a good place to start. If we are having fun and getting lots of good material it can grow to 6-12 hours.
A lot depends on the model. If someone loses energy, there's not much point in forcing them further, unless you want to take pictures of them sleeping.
I tend to be a perpetual motion machine most of the time, but I can crash and burn at some point too. I rise with the sun and divide my normal work day into three 4-6 hour increments. I can occasionally contribute one or two of those increments to a TFP photo shoot. I edit slowly, so that's something to factor in too.
---
If it's with a model I've worked with before, I also love the charm of impromptu quickies. I'm happy to pick up my camera and bang away a few quick photos in any length of time. Nothing is too short for that.
---
Photo road trips can be fun too. 8-12 hours is good for that.
I often host traveling models. 3-day photo weekends around San Diego thrill me.
Photographer
Robb Mann
Posts: 12327
Baltimore, Maryland, US
I usually try to schedule three hours for a shoot. Normally about two of those hours are camera time. The test is wardrobe, lights, and silkyness.
Photographer
robert b mitchell
Posts: 2218
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
I like at least 3 hours of actual shooting time. Its a serious hobby for me so I am not making a living at it like some people here. That does not include makeup prep and wardrobe so add another 2 hours.
Photographer
John Wishard
Posts: 1896
Fallbrook, California, US
On trade shoots I have, many times, shot for 12+ hours with a model that has the energy and is worth the effort. We will probably eat a couple times and take lots of snack/drink breaks. Planning the concept, makeup, hair, wardrobe and designing the sets often takes quite a bit of time. Sometimes I need to plan time for my wife to get some shots in as well. Or, I can do a quickie, which for me is about 4 hours and a couple simple looks. If we're not going take time to shoot something memorable, I'd rather work on retouching images!
Photographer
picturephoto
Posts: 8687
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Valerie Kelly wrote:
What is your max in terms of shoot length? I usually prefer shoots not to last longer than 2-3 hours, especially if it's only TF. I start getting tired and hungry if the shoot seems to go on forever. If it's a longer shoot than 3 hours I think a break is warranted before continuing. A typical shoot day for me is 8-12 hours (for a third-party client), we always take a couple of breaks, including lunch. Basically, the shoot ends when it is done, and I agree, taking a break after 3 hours is a good idea.
If I'm just shooting for fun, it's usually not that long.
Model
Meghan Hale
Posts: 335
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
2 hours seems to be an average for me. Anything over 4 would start to get a bit difficult unless I was fed, or had breaks in between looks (as in, hair/MU gets changed and I get to sit down!)
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Richard Dubois wrote:
A typical shoot day for me is 8-12 hours (for a third-party client), we always take a couple of breaks, including lunch. Basically, the shoot ends when it is done, and I agree, taking a break after 3 hours is a good idea.
If I'm just shooting for fun, it's usually not that long. What??? You are talking about your paid shoots, right? Well I am not going to do a 8 to 12 hour TFP shoot. I gotta get paid to work that hard! 
It's my choice how long. 
Photographer
deletedxxx
Posts: 149
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
I find no matter which side of the camera I'm on, or what the shoot is about I start to lose interest at the 2 1/2 hour mark and I'm getting bored by 3hours. If I have a decent break at that point I seem to be able to get back into it. I find if I try to power past that amount of time I totally lose interest and a break after that time, is time to go. I guess that means I have a 3 hour attention span 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Shandra Stark wrote:
Only getting photos? Why do you allow yourself to do any "trade" shoots, if this is how you view things? You either need to stop modeling entirely, or just stop setting up shoots that make you feel like someone is stealing from you.
Of course you don't go to work for 6-8 hours and go home with nothing. On a trade shoot, you SHOULD be going home with something more valuable than money- the opportunity to make MORE money. My images from trade shoots are like winning lottery tickets. Every image you see here that I have on MM (except for two), were all from trade shoots.
...you should never use as many as five images from the same shoots, unless they're all completely different looks. +1
Model
Scarlett de la Calle
Posts: 414
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia
I shoot until all parties are happy and I have done full days for TF but had multiple looks and gotten a broad range of images for my portfolio that has made more people interested in hiring me If the shoot is interesting and conceptual I can shoot forever. If its glamour and beauty which I try to shy away from it should only take 2 - 3 hrs MAX
Model
Goodbye4
Posts: 2532
Los Angeles, California, US
2-3 hours is highly unrealistic for editorial work where there are a MINIMUM of six looks (usually up to ten). Shoots for me are anywhere between 2 and 14 hours depending on the type of shoot. Somewhere in the 4 to 8 hour range is average for a lot of the stuff I do.
Photographer
DELETED-ACCOUNT_
Posts: 10303
Los Angeles, California, US
Kelleth wrote:
2-3 hours is highly unrealistic for editorial work where there are a MINIMUM of six looks (usually up to ten). Shoots for me are anywhere between 2 and 14 hours depending on the type of shoot. Somewhere in the 4 to 8 hour range is average for a lot of the stuff I do. lol, I was just about to respond and talk about the shoot we did years ago in the desert:
IIRC I picked you up around 7am and didn't drop you off till around midnight? Still the record for longest day lol.
Other than that shoots on location typically are 8-10hrs total factoring in travel, and shoots in studio on average are about 4hrs with a full team (avg 8 looks) or as little as 2 hours for a casual test.
Photographer
Wilde One
Posts: 2373
Santa Monica, California, US
Trader shoots are fun but not "just for fun". They are to provide everybody with an upgrade to the portfolio, so better and higher paying jobs can be achieved.
2 - 3 hours are not enough.
You need to give hair and make-up time, and also wardrobe. Make-up often likes to do a change in the make-up - not a good idea to breathe down their neck.
And the photographer wants to try out new things and explore ideas.
My shortest shoots are 5 hours (if the location allows me to shoot everything close together), but usually I shoot for rather 7 hours. My ideal shoot length would be much longer, but not David La Chapelle long (whose shoots last over 24 hours).
I usually take extra water with me for models and crew and emergency sandwiches and chocolate (well stored away, so nobody who's on a diet gets tortured by signal purple, the sign for a fresh bar of chocolate).
Model
Rachel in GR
Posts: 1656
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
FiveOne November wrote:
"we need to find an old shipwreck...let's get in the car!"? Yayyy! Where's my mermaid costume? :-D
Model
Rachel in GR
Posts: 1656
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Valerie Kelly wrote:
Maybe I am extra sensitive, but I need to be at least 65-70 degrees out to shoot swimwear comfortably. You think that professional llamas shoot in nice weather?? While it's true that, most of the time, big companies will fly their llamas in December or so to exotic locales to shoot the swimwear for that upcoming S/S season, it's *still* something like mid-50s in most of those places. Just take a closer look at practically any online swimsuit catalogue. You can see the goosebumps!
I know because I *live* in one of those "exotic locales" and, well... I've done it!
Usually there are blankets and warm drinks on set for in-between takes.
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 3351
London, England, United Kingdom
Jessica Jones wrote:
Like it or not, being paid with money makes a hell of a difference. No one wants to work for free for hours and hours Very true.
However TF means you are trading, if you're not interested in the images then what are you doing it for?
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25319
Bath, England, United Kingdom
I only shoot trade with MM models and as such I generally try to maximize the return by shooting a fair amount. 5 hours or more is pretty normal for me, although that will include plenty of down time and lots of cups of tea too! Just my $0.02 Ciao Stefano www.stefanobrunesci.com
Photographer
GoldieImages
Posts: 173
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia
4hrs+, esp. if a H/MUA is on board. Any shorter and I'll need the model arrive ready to shoot.
Photographer
Flex Photography
Posts: 6471
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada
Jessica Jones wrote:
I agree, but If the shoot is TF and there aren't any MUA's or stylists and or multiple wardrobe changes then 3 hours is too long to shoot. For a TF shoot you don't need but about an hour, hour and a half maybe. You're not being paid cash, you both are only getting photos out of the deal and probably will only use about 5 of the photos out of the bunch anyway. Afterall, you dont go to work for 5 or 8 hours just to be paid with something that cant pay your bills lol I'm just sayin. If you invest the time & effort in a Trade to get excellent images for your portfolio, they actually are paying the bills, as better images will get you more & possibly better paying jobs! It isn't "just TF"!
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Valerie Kelly wrote:
What is your max in terms of shoot length? I usually prefer shoots not to last longer than 2-3 hours, especially if it's only TF. I start getting tired and hungry if the shoot seems to go on forever. If it's a longer shoot than 3 hours I think a break is warranted before continuing. "Only TF???"
I'm willing to do one that short if the model is amazing, or if I'm paid for some specific concept. Generally, my trade shoots are 5-8 hours, although not all of it is in front of the camera. Breaks for a snack or dinner are not uncommon.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Rachel-Elise wrote:
You think that professional models shoot in nice weather?? While it's true that, most of the time, big companies will fly their models in December or so to exotic locales to shoot the swimwear for that upcoming S/S season, it's *still* something like mid-50s in most of those places. Just take a closer look at practically any online swimsuit catalogue. You can see the goosebumps!
I know because I *live* in one of those "exotic locales" and, well... I've done it!
Usually there are blankets and warm drinks on set for in-between takes. Although I must say on Valerie's behalf, that she has never claimed to be a "professional" ... I have shot bikini clad models on TF and paid basis at some cold locations. If it's too cold for me being in shorts, I may end the shoot early. Goosebumps are NOT attractive! 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
I will not schedule 8 hour shoots anymore, unless it's on my home property and we take breaks. Shoots that are 2 or 4 hours work perfectly for me. TFP or paid, it doesn't matter.
Photographer
Eleven 11 Photography
Posts: 409
Auburn, Alabama, US
I normally want a single model for three hours. Thats a good session for me, gives us time to really get into some stuff.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Shandra Stark wrote:
As someone who pays her rent in about three days of work, and is booked nearly every day (http://shandrastark.com/intro/booking.html)...as someone who makes her entire living as a freelance model, believe me when I say that trade shoots are not "free work"!
Mama don't work for free. I refuse.
Trade shoots offer something even better than a quick buck. With a trade shoot you should be getting:
*at least one of the best images you've ever made (which gets you PAYING work)
*at least one image that makes each of you insanely happy, on a personal/artistic level
*fun
If you view trade as a waste of time, you're doing it wrong.
Trade=value. That's why it's called trade, and not "free". If you feel you are getting zero value from a shoot where you are not paid in cash money, then it is not an even trade, and you should stop wasting peoples' time by being so bored at their shoots, OR, you should start recognizing the issue, and only set up trade shoots with people you feel add value to your hobbie/career/portfolio. Have I mentioned lately that you're awesome?
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Valerie Kelly wrote:
I had a great shoot today, despite getting up early. However, he wanted to do a swimwear outfit change as one of the outfits. It was around 10am and about 55 degrees. We were also shooting in the shade, so it was breezy. Maybe I am extra sensitive, but I need to be at least 65-70 degrees out to shoot swimwear comfortably. It would have actually been okay to shoot swimwear in the sun, but it was just too windy in the shade at 55 degrees and he didn't want to shoot in the sunny areas. He was cool and professional when I told him I would be uncomfortable and didn't want to show it in the images. By the time we were shooting for 3 hours, he suggested we do a 4th outfit change and by that time I said I had to get going. He wasn't offended or anything, but I think he took it to mean that I didn't enjoy the shoot, which I did. We had discussed length of shoot a few weeks back and he said about 3 hours. He wanted to do 6-8 outfit changes and at the rate we were going, we would have been shooting all day. (We did 3 outfit changes within that 3 hours). Since 3 hours was what we originally discussed, I don't think it was unprofessional to call it a day since it was TFP. As noted above, I can live with something as short as three hours, although it's far from ideal. And, while different people vary, this was shot in January, in Michigan. 57 degrees (18+)
https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/31568652
On another note, there are very good reasons to not shoot in the direct sunlight, especially after about 10 am.
Model
Goodbye4
Posts: 2532
Los Angeles, California, US
T-D-L wrote:
lol, I was just about to respond and talk about the shoot we did years ago in the desert:
IIRC I picked you up around 7am and didn't drop you off till around midnight? Still the record for longest day lol.
Other than that shoots on location typically are 8-10hrs total factoring in travel, and shoots in studio on average are about 4hrs with a full team (avg 8 looks) or as little as 2 hours for a casual test. Haha that was such a fun day though!
Model
Lynn Elizabeth
Posts: 1336
Palm Beach, Florida, US
Generally I say 3 hrs if the shoot is in one location and there isn't much change to makeup. If a shoot is on different locations then I prepare for a longer day. (bringing some snack bars and a drink) I have shot from almost the moment I got off the plane to when I got back on a plane the next day, with the same photographer. Stopping briefly for food breaks.
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