Amanda Ashley Harris wrote:
... anybody else misjudge who they were working with and end up regretting a trade shoot on account of quality?
Also, are they delusional about their work or do they just not read my profile?

Hi,
I'm still new and unskilled enough where I think I'm about even with feeling like my trades were not a benefit or thinking my trade was probably more difficult for the photographer than it needed to be!

Yet, I am starting to know what you are talking about...bit by bit.

Jen

Amanda Ashley Harris wrote:
... anybody else misjudge who they were working with and end up regretting a trade shoot on account of quality?

Oh, hell yes.

Amanda Ashley Harris wrote:
Also, are they delusional about their work or do they just not read my profile?

You mean the photographers looking at your page? Not sure. But it's perfectly common for a creative to feel really good about their work but others might not share that opinion.

Amanda Ashley Harris wrote:
I am a former Ford model. I have been in the industry for 15 years, with a college break. I am only accepting trade portfolio work if the photographer has stronger work than me or a badass concept because at this point, my heart is in it for art's sake. I can usually tell when a photographer had a good model vs just an awesome photographer who could make a plank of wood look like Linda Evangelista! (funny visual) However, I may be off my mark lately because sometimes during a shoot, their idea of creativity is in really poor taste. They think throwing a prop out makes it more interesting but I have been doing this for years, I know that every single object in a photograph must have a purpose. A lot of photographers I've done trade with lately have been upsetting the moral code I pose by.It just feels like I'm doing someone a favor and saving them $1000 on a Ford quality model, who can "pose like a motherf*cker" according to the fashion photographer who shot me today... anybody else misjudge who they were working with and end up regretting a trade shoot on account of quality?
Also, are they delusional about their work or do they just not read my profile?

If you don't like their work, why are you shooting with them?

TF/test/trade with a good photographer will improve your portfolio and lead to more offers of paid work - that's why most working models do it.

If you're just in it "for the art" then try not to be too judgemental about the people you're working with, as 'artists' typically haven't spent 15 years shooting top level fashion models, so their ways of working might seem a little rough and ready to you.... but if you're creating art, who really cares?

ETA: If you're worried about people contravening your 'moral code' (whatever that is) then maybe you should remove the statement "I like pushing boundaries" from your profile? That could certainly be interpreted in ways you might not like.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Amanda Ashley Harris wrote:
Also, are they delusional about their work or do they just not read my profile?

there are many people calling themselves 'photographers'.. more than ever before ..

photographers are like taxi drivers.. they come in all shapes and sizes , different personalities and back grounds experience and qualifications, so you need to team up with guys/girls that not only have a good track record (portfolio and experience) but you get on with. for instance meeting up for 5 minutes prior to shoot can answer all those simple questions.

guys and girls have ego's some bigger than others.. some think their gods gift to others and act like it while some are quiet (the dark horses).

models are the exact same.. some think their shit hot, some don't

on the flip side .. you might think the photogrpaher or models the biggest ahole in the world but if it gets the results it gets the result regardless so being professional about it is the number one priority in my opinion and being professional makes you a more attractive option when it comes to progress

Anna Adrielle wrote:
wow dude, unsolicited critique much?

+1

-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
If you don't like their work, why are you shooting with them?

.........

If you're just in it for "the art" then try not to be to judgemental about the people you're working with, as 'artists' typically haven't spent 15 years shooting top level fashion models, so their ways of working might seem a little rough and ready to you.... but if you're creating art, who really cares?

Agree.

Imagine: "That guy - Van Gogh - is really weird and has a strange concept of what art is. I would never work with him."

Make your TF decision based on (1) the quality of the photograher's portfolio and (2) whether you think you there will be good creative chemistry between the two of you. But even then there are no guarantees. I think I'm a pretty good photographer, but I still come up with great ideas in my mind that I can't quite make happen in practice.

MyrnaByrna wrote:

Hi,
I'm still new and unskilled enough where I think I'm about even with feeling like my trades were not a benefit or thinking my trade was probably more difficult for the photographer than it needed to be!

Yet, I am starting to know what you are talking about...bit by bit.

Jen

Yeah, I have felt the same way in approaching some of the photographers I now work with! When in doubt, I stick to classic art references now that I am more curvy and rely on my hair and teeth (they love gaps for some reason).

Know Idea wrote:

Amanda Ashley Harris wrote:
... anybody else misjudge who they were working with and end up regretting a trade shoot on account of quality?

Oh, hell yes.



You mean the photographers looking at your page? Not sure. But it's perfectly common for a creative to feel really good about their work but others might not share that opinion.

I mean "GWC's" who request trade work from me. I'm not as judgmental as I seem, I just know that I do a decent job and that counts for a lot.

I've heard of models showing up older, bigger measurements, bad skin, different hair, shorter, etc and if I was a photographer at that point I would regret doing a trade if I had a specific certain look I needed and they didn't match their port.

-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

If you don't like their work, why are you shooting with them?

TF/test/trade with a good photographer will improve your portfolio and lead to more offers of paid work - that's why most working models do it.

If you're just in it for "the art" then try not to be to judgemental about the people you're working with, as 'artists' typically haven't spent 15 years shooting top level fashion models, so their ways of working might seem a little rough and ready to you.... but if you're creating art, who really cares?

ETA: If you're worried about people contravening your 'moral code' (whatever that is) then maybe you should remove the statement "I like pushing boundaries" from your profile? That could certainly be interpreted in ways you might not like.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

I worked with them because I originally thought they were good because of images in their port, and later realized they got lucky with a good model.
And yes, you are right, I definitely do not mind falling down, scraping my knees on the way to trying out concepts. The way I see it, if you don't make mistakes you aren't trying hard enough.
When I said moral code, I meant that every object in a photograph has to have a purpose and I just don't do standing around holding something, wearing something, doing something that makes no sense in context. Even if it's awkward in a beautiful way, it still has to flow, not be inhibiting.

MCD Imagery wrote:
My view of trade is that both parties should leave the shoot happy. When discussing the shoot beforehand, if the concepts the photographer is suggesting are not ones you want to add to your portfolio, then make sure that he/she is willing to shoot your ideas as well, so you both gain the images you want/need.

At the moment I'm offering trade for soley gaining experience, so I am more than happy to shoot what the model wants, so we both get what we need from the shoot.

Yes, in my experience this has worked out for me very well! I think it's just that the photographer had more of a glamour style that I wasn't used to, which we didn't really discuss.

KonstantKarma wrote:
If you feel like you have information to teach, and photographers could use instruction, why not host educational workshops?

You'd get your rush of creating art, have more control over the situation, and charge a few bucks. Your clients would be less-than-perfect photographers but if you're just looking to make the world prettier though art it should be fun anyway.

That's a good idea. I do that with newer photographers because I love helping people grow and when they show me the screen I give them both positive and negative about how they are shooting me, so maybe I should post something about it in my profile. :-) I'm just not good with the technical aspects of photography so I couldn't help them change what didn't suit me, so I wouldn't feel comfortable making it a sort of class.

Amanda Ashley Harris wrote:
When I said moral code, I meant that every object in a photograph has to have a purpose and I just don't do standing around holding something, wearing something, doing something that makes no sense in context.

So.....what is the green slime on your face?

Dynamic Mobile Photo wrote:
If you are doing $1000 shoots with well respected photographers, why are you even considering tf? does not make sense to me

Just my $0.02  as well

Tf for updated portfolio, for fun, and because that's how it works in LA. I like MM because I can choose photographers, be more creative, and paid work is usually commercial and not as inspiring to me anymore. I just have had trouble judging who to work with lately, but this forum has given me some good ideas and advice.

Loki Studio wrote:
You seem to have a problem communicating about creativity.  If you don't want to do something-just say no.

Good planing should eliminate most of these thoughtless/cheesey/or just bad ideas that do not mesh  with your creativity.   For me, personal planing meetings are the best tool to fully plan great concepts that we both love.  If ideas/personality/styles/etc do not converge-then I know that test shoot is not worth my time.

There may have been a time as a commercial model when the client's creative direction was your only goal.  That has changed now, and you clearly need to be more direct in communicating your interests.   And no-your experience nor your profile text does not make you immune to bad ideas.

-Scott

Very insightful, thanks! :-) I have had numerous messages with reference images, etc and then we go to shoot and they're like "here put this sailor hat on and look really mad like shirley temple" OK not really, bu that's how I feel when I am put out of my element, which I am starting to think is glamour photography. Not saying anything against it, but I am definitely not good at it. haha

In Balance Photography wrote:
I can't for the life of me figure out why you are shooting with these photographers. Could you elaborate on that ?

I think it was because I was looking at their best image and not considering their worst. We would discuss concepts, send amazing inspiration images and it's not that I expected to recreate anything, just that in the end we didn't see eye to eye.

ImageCRAFTbyAleks wrote:
For the sake of being fair, sometimes it's as simple as "no connection" between the photographer and the model. Trade shoots I've involved myself with tend to have   more open-ended concepts that may be subject to a broad (hazier?) approach in trying to find the right groove/look/vibe. When dealing with third party commission... ("Here... shoot the summer line of resort wear for this designer....",) the scope is more or less defined by the gig that the photographer, model, MUAs, etc, are hired for. In "art shots" that have no financial investment, even if there is a guiding vision, the ultimate image is likely to be accomplished with more trial and error with a greater need of tolerance for the creative process. Because the focus is likely to zero in on expression, body form, and technique, it's more "personal," and if the parties aren't in sync, the end result can look forced or stilted, or worse, contrived. Not to be dismissive or curt, just practical, but if the prop is inappropriate to you, um... so what? Unless you have a mutually invested interest/intent for the end result, such as your own portfolio enhancement, it doesn't really matter. But, you did state that is part of your goal. Then the fair question becomes, have you included EVERY final shot from an assignment in your 15 year career in your book? If you haven't, then a "lesser-than-your-need-trade-photo" gets excluded as well as the ones that you were paid for. I'm not sure what the moral posing code is all about, but I'll assume very forward body shots or acts. Since I don't take any photos remotely like this, it's a non-starter topic for me. However, there are models that feature what some may consider provocative work in their books or online. I checked out your work and it's all very nicely done. However, you do feature some nude work. (Actually, more than some.) How is the photographer to know that there may be "other, possibly more provocative" work that you didn't showcase unless they ask? Unless the guidelines are set upfront... firmly... as to the extent of your personal parameters, then the photographer runs the risk of crossing boundaries if they weren't already established... clearly. Your question didn't address that. As for the levels of experience, I have found that doesn't guarantee "quality."  Within the past year I worked with a prolific actor who makes a living entirely off the craft. Not an easy thing to do. The person's been in film and television frequently. That individual was one of the most difficult models to engage in the shoot as their rote "good side" was consistently presented without trying to break out of what appeared to be cast in stone. Ultimately, I don't think they got entirely what they wanted, nor did I. It was merely more of the same from a long, established, tried-and-true career. And the point of the shoot was to break the mold and to uncover more versatility for greater opportunities. But despite many discussions and what I believe was affirmative direction, we hit the wall over and over again with "safe." And it could have been just "us." And that's just the way it goes some
times.

Thank you soooo much for this thoughtful response. When I said the moral posing code, I meant that every object must have a purpose and it has to flow in it's awkwardness in an avant garde way or not exist, because it just makes me uncomfortable. After answering the other questions, it has become clear to me that perhaps the photographers were just more inclined to glamour, or perhaps even working with glamour models. I love doing nude work, I love pushing boundaries of what people think is beautiful, appropriate etc but like you said, do not have it all in my port. I also have some fine art stuff that might look bizarre in my port but I love it and regard it as some of my best work.
Again, thanks for taking the time to respond. I am going to copy it and read it later when I get discouraged after trying concepts that didn't work, either on mine or photographers part. (or both, usually)

SoCo n Lime wrote:
there are many people calling themselves 'photographers'.. more than ever before ..

photographers are like taxi drivers.. they come in all shapes and sizes , different personalities and back grounds experience and qualifications, so you need to team up with guys/girls that not only have a good track record (portfolio and experience) but you get on with. for instance meeting up for 5 minutes prior to shoot can answer all those simple questions.

guys and girls have ego's some bigger than others.. some think their gods gift to others and act like it while some are quiet (the dark horses).

models are the exact same.. some think their shit hot, some don't

on the flip side .. you might think the photogrpaher or llamas the biggest ahole in the world but if it gets the results it gets the result regardless so being professional about it is the number one priority in my opinion and being professional makes you a more attractive option when it comes to progress

Yes, I definitely agree with alot of what you are saying. I am just so used to trusting everything the photographer says 100% and going with it. When I get in a flow I could shoot for days on end. haha In fact, I do shoot almost every single day. Professionalism goes a LONG way, I will agree 100%! well said!

Anna Adrielle wrote:
OP, you've got a lot of experience... but this thing happens to everyone who TF's, at all levels, no matter how good or sucky they are.

I think everyone doing trade is trying to get something out of it, whether that is a killer concept or a photographer/model who's work is better than yours so you can lift your portfolio to a higher level.

I also think everyone who shoots trade every now and then has had the experience where the shoot, even if you felt the communication prior to the shoot was awesome, just isn't going that well, and the click isn't there. Sometimes it happens that awesome people come together, and just don't produce awesomework.

So whether you're a model with 15 years of experience, or a newbie starting out... it happens to all of us.

Thanks so much! That was nice to hear. I think I push myself so hard that sometimes I expect too much from other people. Reality check! :-)

Faces2Die4 Photography wrote:

Agree.

Imagine: "That guy - Van Gogh - is really weird and has a strange concept of what art is. I would never work with him."

Make your TF decision based on (1) the quality of the photograher's portfolio and (2) whether you think you there will be good creative chemistry between the two of you. But even then there are no guarantees. I think I'm a pretty good photographer, but I still come up with great ideas in my mind that I can't quite make happen in practice.

Totally, agree...I have done that too where I thought it was awesome and it went horribly wrong. I think I have just been exploring so many different styles lately that I didn't speak up when put in one I wasn't comfortable with. (glamour)

George Ruge wrote:
You are way too gorgeous to be giving away your time to substandard togs!!! I would not think of asking you to come pose for me without paying you something.

Thank you very much!

John Horwitz wrote:

So.....what is the green slime on your face?

Awesome! You rock for calling me out on that! :-)
It was a part of a sort of ectoplasma humanoid alien being born shoot, hence the sort of look of apathy/hunger, and no makeup, but taken out of context, I am sure it looks silly but really from a model's perspective, a port helps demonstrate how far I am willing to go for shoots, and basically it is to show that I am not afraid to incorporate weird concepts and get messy. I have done fake blood, slime, flour, clay, paint, and probably other things that I can't even remember right now. I leave it in my port for that reason, and because it is a technically good photo as well. Both eyes are lit well and pop.

Amanda Ashley Harris wrote:
I am a former Ford model. I have been in the industry for 15 years, with a college break. I am only accepting trade portfolio work if the photographer has stronger work than me or a badass concept because at this point, my heart is in it for art's sake. I can usually tell when a photographer had a good model vs just an awesome photographer who could make a plank of wood look like Linda Evangelista! (funny visual) However, I may be off my mark lately because sometimes during a shoot, their idea of creativity is in really poor taste. They think throwing a prop out makes it more interesting but I have been doing this for years, I know that every single object in a photograph must have a purpose. A lot of photographers I've done trade with lately have been upsetting the moral code I pose by.It just feels like I'm doing someone a favor and saving them $1000 on a Ford quality model, who can "pose like a motherf*cker" according to the fashion photographer who shot me today... anybody else misjudge who they were working with and end up regretting a trade shoot on account of quality?
Also, are they delusional about their work or do they just not read my profile?

I think everyone has worked on projects that didn't turn out the way they envisioned when they started.  That's just part of the game.  I'd suggest that anyone who only shoots perfect sessions has quit trying to make art.

You seem to think that having experience and working with Ford makes you an infallible model.  I would suggest that if you think you know better than any photographer what their images should look like, then you're probably not qualified to be a model.  I've worked with "models" who think their job is to be a performing artist and my job is to stay out of their way and be their camera man.  That may be fine for a fashion model, but if you want to be an art model you need to come to terms with who's the artist and who's the model.  For a TF session you should expect some time spent on the images you want, but your job for the rest of the session is to do your best to help the artist who's employing you to put his/her own vision into images.

Amanda Ashley Harris wrote:

Awesome! You rock for calling me out on that! :-)
It was a part of a sort of ectoplasma humanoid alien being born shoot, hence the sort of look of apathy/hunger, and no makeup, but taken out of context, I am sure it looks silly but really from a model's perspective, a port helps demonstrate how far I am willing to go for shoots, and basically it is to show that I am not afraid to incorporate weird concepts and get messy. I have done fake blood, slime, flour, clay, paint, and probably other things that I can't even remember right now. I leave it in my port for that reason, and because it is a technically good photo as well. Both eyes are lit well and pop.

Just one more thought.....I'd LOVE to work with you

Brian Ziff wrote:
By entering an agreement whereby two people are forgoing the formality of exchanging money for services rendered in the hope that their working relationship will be mutually beneficial, being disappointed is always a potential risk.

Most of the shoots I've done for free end up being massive burdens on me and I end up feeling largely taken advantage of.  On the opposite side of the spectrum, and though they're rare occurrences, some of the best shoots I've had were done under identical circumstances.  No point bemoaning the bad shoots after the fact--you waived that right when you decided to work for free.

Also, you have to consider the possibility that as disappointed as you were with the photographer, they may have been just as disappointed with you.

Yes, yes very true! The same goes for me, some of my best work was trade. I think my problem was that they leaned toward glamour, which I didn't know because we had only discussed the concepts we were doing, then when it came time to shoot we knocked out or concepts and then when we got into the creative flow they leaned back on what they knew and I went the opposite way to what I know.