Photographer
Michael Fryd
Posts: 5231
Miami Beach, Florida, US
Everyone is free to make whatever deal they want (as long as it is within the law).
Industry practice is that the clock starts running at the call time, or when the model arrives. whichever is later.
There are some that suggest that the model should not be paid for prep time, break time, dressing time, bathroom breaks etc. The suggestion is that she should only be paid when she is actually performing productive work.
Such an arrangement would save photographers a fortune.
Take a model who charges $200/hour, who I schedule to arrive at 1pm for hair and makeup. She is done by 3pm. Over the course of those two hours, between costume changes, breaks, etc. I take a total of 100 images.
My typical studio shutter speed is 1/200th second. Do the math and you find that I have only photographed a total of 1/2 second of her time. $200/hour is about 6¢ a second. Include an extremely generous tip and I would only owe her a dime for the afternoon's work.
Clearly this is ridiculous. Clearly, the model is expecting to be paid for more then just when I am capturing her image.
Photographer
Michael Fryd
Posts: 5231
Miami Beach, Florida, US
Photographer
name removed3
Posts: 264
Boston, Massachusetts, US
time travel is a models bff
Photographer
FullMetalPhotographer
Posts: 2797
Fresno, California, US
I don't book models by the hour I tend to book by the job or by the day. I shoots that 2 days long and shoots that were a few hours.
It works out better when I am budgeting a shoot.
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18832
Albany, New York, US
Because I've had models be ready to go after 10 minutes of prep time of doing their own makeup & others still not be ready after 40 minutes, the clock for me usually starts the moment I take the first picture.
Photographer
Mike Collins
Posts: 2880
Orlando, Florida, US
Michael Fryd wrote:
Everyone is free to make whatever deal they want (as long as it is within the law).
Industry practice is that the clock starts running at the call time, or when the model arrives. whichever is later. THIS
Time starts and ends at the scheduled time. Even it it wraps early, the model still gets paid the agreed time.
BUT, if you want to be used again and again, quibbling over a few minutes here or there won't earn you any brownie points. I'm always at least 1/2 hour to 45 minutes early to my corporate conference shoots. Sometimes I start early to get some extra shots in. But I don't bill them for starting early. Nor do I mind of it goes a few minutes over. Some clients come back year after year. Guess who they call?
As a model, coming in a little early to get to know the photographer, the crew, go over the shoot, etc and not worrying about time, will go a long way in this business. There is no shortage of models out there. ( or photographers).
Photographer
Zack Zoll
Posts: 6895
Glens Falls, New York, US
RKD Photographic wrote:
That's all I'm saying too... It's just that some (other) people seem to be having difficulty understanding that.
"...time spend digging through a pile of clothes..." accounts for maybe three to five minutes (from my own experience), so not really worth worrying about. You're completely right. But if they do that for two different looks, and they didn't do their basic makeup on the way over, or we have to make a couple trips between the car and the studio because she brought so much stuff (see: didn't bother to pick an outfit yet), or the outfit she wants to wear is all crumpled up from being jammed into a bag with six other outfits and it needs to be steamed ...
Each thing only takes a couple minutes, and is very forgivable. But it adds up, and next thing you know you're paying for an hour of prep work that should have been done before the model arrived.
Michael Fryd wrote:
There are some that suggest that the model should not be paid for prep time, break time, dressing time, bathroom breaks etc. The suggestion is that she should only be paid when she is actually performing productive work.
Such an arrangement would save photographers a fortune.
Take a model who charges $200/hour, who I schedule to arrive at 1pm for hair and makeup. She is done by 3pm. Over the course of those two hours, between costume changes, breaks, etc. I take a total of 100 images.
My typical studio shutter speed is 1/200th second. Do the math and you find that I have only photographed a total of 1/2 second of her time. $200/hour is about 6¢ a second. Include an extremely generous tip and I would only owe her a dime for the afternoon's work.
Clearly this is ridiculous. Clearly, the model is expecting to be paid for more then just when I am capturing her image. This is a ridiculous argument not because of the math, but because it is a logical fallacy. You are 'capturing the model's image' any time they are standing in front of the camera - not just when the shutter clicks. If you need to focus, recompose, look around for a better angle, wait for lights to recycle, change lenses or film - any of that is done for the purpose of taking more pictures. Even 'idle' chit chat is done for the pictures, as it helps establish a rapport and puts you both more at ease with each other. Or freaks out the model, if that's your goal.
The only time that a model is ever standing in front of your lights and you're NOT working towards pictures is if you're sitting there silently, not looking at them, and thinking about something else entirely. And then that's your fault for spacing out on your dollar - not theirs.
Photographer
Jhono Bashian
Posts: 2464
Cleveland, Ohio, US
I always want the talent to show up 15 minutes early so they can check in, visit craft services, and meet the staff. They will have plenty of breaks thru out the day to socialize, eat, get into clothes, hair & mua.
Photographer
Michael Fryd
Posts: 5231
Miami Beach, Florida, US
Zack Zoll wrote:
...
This is a ridiculous argument not because of the math, but because it is a logical fallacy. You are 'capturing the model's image' any time they are standing in front of the camera - not just when the shutter clicks. If you need to focus, recompose, look around for a better angle, wait for lights to recycle, change lenses or film - any of that is done for the purpose of taking more pictures. Even 'idle' chit chat is done for the pictures, as it helps establish a rapport and puts you both more at ease with each other. Or freaks out the model, if that's your goal.
The only time that a model is ever standing in front of your lights and you're NOT working towards pictures is if you're sitting there silently, not looking at them, and thinking about something else entirely. And then that's your fault for spacing out on your dollar - not theirs. The argument is only ridiculous because it's an unusual idea. Paying for exposure time is basically the same as paying per image shot. It's an unusual way to structure the arrangement, but it's not insane.
What the model gets paid for really is arbitrary. If idle chit chat is part of the picture taking process, then it seems strange to exclude hair and makeup..
Why stop there? Some model's believe that getting a wax job for a shoot is part of their job.
Thee is no one way of doing things that is intrinsically right. You can pay by the job, by the picture, by the hour, etc. You can include travel time, pay travel time at half rate, exclude travel time. You can even pay for the model to get her hair down, get a wax job, or a spray tan.
On the other hand, there is the industry standard for how models get paid. The clock generally starts at the call time, or when she arrives (whichever is later).
My son used to model. He did a number of catalog work for international clients. His agency got him the local standard hourly rate, with a two hour minimum. There were times he was scheduled for a big shoot for a national client. He would show up on time, the shoot would be running late, and they wouldn't get to him. He still got paid from his call time to his dismissal even through he never stepped in front of a camera. The clock started at his call time. he would get paid while he was in hair and makeup. He would get paid while they determined wardrobe. he got paid when he was changing outfits. He even got paid while he sat around and they shot somebody else.
This is how the industry typically works.
Unless you have a good reason to deviate, I suggest following industry standard practices.
Model
Anti Lucky
Posts: 15
Los Angeles, California, US
the moment the client is there is when I would consider.
Photographer
Tim Media
Posts: 95
Columbia, Missouri, US
RKD Photographic wrote:
That's interesting to hear.
I'll tell the model tomorrow I'm only paying her for 35 minutes - after she's spent two hours getting ready - this is going to save me a fortune!  This is a business. What other business or job pays you to get ready?
Photographer
Michael Fryd
Posts: 5231
Miami Beach, Florida, US
Tim Media wrote:
This is a business. What other business or job pays you to get ready? Hire a construction crew for 7am. The crane is late and doesn't arrive until 8am. Try not paying the crew for the hour they spent waiting for the crane.
Hire a lawyer to represent you in court. Tell him he should only be paid for the time he spends in court, not the time he spends preparing for court. See if he is still willing to represent you.
Rent a theater for a show. Tell them you only want to pay rent for the day of the show, and not for the two days spent loading in the show, and the day spent loading out.
These are just the first few examples that pop into my head of situations where it is common to pay for prep time specific to a client.
Photographer
Tim Media
Posts: 95
Columbia, Missouri, US
Michael Fryd wrote:
Hire a construction crew for 7am. The crane is late and doesn't arrive until 8am. Try not paying the crew for the hour they spent waiting for the crane.
Hire a lawyer to represent you in court. Tell him he should only be paid for the time he spends in court, not the time he spends preparing for court. See if he is still willing to represent you.
Rent a theater for a show. Tell them you only want to pay rent for the day of the show, and not for the two days spent loading in the show, and the day spent loading out.
These are just the first few examples that pop into my head of situations where it is common to pay for prep time specific to a client. I understand your thinking, but I'm thinking more on the lines of...........
1. If I hire a construction crew, they ALL better be there on time and start on time as the contract will state, or there is no pay.
2. Lawyers preparing for a case is typical research, that's part of the service. They are actually physically working. But you are not going to pay them to get ready to do the research. You are going to pay him to do the job which include hours of research and court.
3. Once again, If I have a project that take three days, that's what I'm going to book, and pay for. They are actually physically working. But I won't pay for whatever they are doing to get ready to work.
But if that's your system, than that's the one you use. But when it comes to models, I will not pay for make up time, because often I'm already paying for the MAU.
Now if I'm not footing the bill, and someone else in in charge. They can run the show however they want.
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Tim Media wrote:
I understand your thinking, but I'm thinking more on the lines of...........
1. If I hire a construction crew, they ALL better be there on time and start on time as the contract will state, or there is no pay. I worked in and around the construction industry for years, also held an associate builders license many moons ago.
I'd suggest you won't be doing much building in the future.
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
Small Fruit Pits wrote:
I worked in and around the construction industry for years, also held an associate builders license many moons ago.
I'd suggest you won't be doing much building in the future. Yup... agreed...
Most construction sites employ people sub-contracted from all over the place.
One housing project I worked on as a teenager (how many of us worked construction during school holidays, I wonder?) had some of the workers over from Germany (this was in the UK) as only they could assemble the (very expensive) kitchen and bathrooms.
They were on-site on time.
The UK crane hire company sent their equipment to the wrong address.
The Germans still got paid for the day they sat and watched football on TV as their equipment couldn't be unloaded...
I get what some people are saying about make-up and hair being prep, but the specific make-up and hair have to be done in the studio.
If a model turns up with make-up or hair I find to be unsuitable (despite pre-shoot comms) then it still has to be re-done, no matter who's at fault.
You might as well bite the bullet and do all the prep in the studio under your supervision - unless of course, you don't care to have any input.
Photographer
Michael Fryd
Posts: 5231
Miami Beach, Florida, US
Tim Media wrote:
...
But if that's your system, than that's the one you use. But when it comes to models, I will not pay for make up time, because often I'm already paying for the MAU.
Now if I'm not footing the bill, and someone else in in charge. They can run the show however they want. Not paying the model because you are paying for the MUA is an interesting idea. I assume your rule is that you only pay for one thing at a time. Does this mean you don't pay the MUA if you are paying rental to a studio owner? If I pay a printer to make a poster, why should I also have to pay the photographer to use the image? If I am paying a surgeon, I shouldn't have to pay the anesthesiologist?
Of course, my client will want to know why he is paying me (the photographer) when he is also paying a model (and/or a MUA).
However, we are digressing. This is not a discussion of whether one payment strategy is better than another. The real question is what is typical in the industry.
The answer there is simple and clear.
In our industry the convention is that the model gets paid from her call time to her dismissal. Unless you negotiate something else, this is what's expected.
If you don't want to pay your model for time she spends on set having her makeup done, this is a deviation from the industry standard, and you should be sure she's aware of this (and agrees to it) ahead of time.
You may believe the industry is wrong. You may even be right. However, this is how the industry works, and you will have an uphill battle trying to change it.
Model
Goodbye4
Posts: 2532
Los Angeles, California, US
The clock starts at the call time given and ends when the last photo is taken.
This is how any professional job works (if you're being paid by the hour and there isn't just a flat rate). Not paying for the time you have to spend in makeup is laughable. That's simply not how things work.
Photographer
Matt T
Posts: 5
Houston, Texas, US
I see a lot from the models side what about the photographers? If a photographer is hired by a client, when does his clock start? Also, I'd like to mention that the client hired him to for his studio space also (home, creative space, etc.). Does his clock start when team arrives or when the first picture is taken?
Photographer
Erlinda
Posts: 7286
London, England, United Kingdom
In the real world, time starts when model arrives. If she's ready or not ready as soon as she steps in your studio/location time is ticking. Models are silly if they are letting photographers start the clock when they start shooting, that is a waste of their time. I never did that when I modelled and never heard of any models do that when I was still in the game.... I guess times have changed 
Photographer
Erlinda
Posts: 7286
London, England, United Kingdom
Matt Trevino wrote:
I see a lot from the models side what about the photographers? If a photographer is hired by a client, when does his clock start? Also, I'd like to mention that the client hired him to for his studio space also (home, creative space, etc.). Does his clock start when team arrives or when the first picture is taken? As soon as the client/creative director is in my studio my time starts ticking. So if my client hired me to shoot from 8am- 6pm time starts at 8am even if it's just me in the studio cause I will be setting up the lights, etc and my time is money.
Photographer
MC Seoul Photography
Posts: 469
Seoul, Seoul, Korea (South)
the important part of this answer is the situation and agreement.
Big team shoot, people are probably being paid half day/day rates and the clock ticks when they show up. Prep time is included in the budget for this.
If this is just an individual shoot, you privately hiring a model to show up and shoot with you for a couple hours., then it goes on the agreement. The agreement should say something like:
We will shoot from 1-3 and you will arrive already prepped.
if she shows up at 1 and her hair and make-up isn't done as agree, then the clock doesn't start.
If she says she wants to do her hair and make-up there, rather than travel with it done, then she could show up at 12 (assuming it's a place she could show up early) and do it herself, off the clock, before starting. I don't think many hobby photographers are going to want to increase their costs by having to pay a model an extra hour or two because she wants to be paid to put on makeup. There are very few jobs where you get paid for having a shower and putting on clothes..
Photographer
Frank McDonough
Posts: 147
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Why oh why, oh why, do you photographers pay models by the hour. I've never understand that. When I plan a shoot I know how long it's going to take and how much my budget is. I offer the model a certain amount to do the shoot, she either accepts it or not and we schedule a session. It just makes it so much easier.
Photographer
Matt T
Posts: 5
Houston, Texas, US
Here's my situation. Creative director (CD) hires me to shoot in my studio 15-20 pieces for her online store. She hires model, makeup artist, and hair stylist. I am using my home studio because my creative space is well...still in negotiations for lease agreement. I bill CD 2 hour blocks because I'm not sure how long the session will take and she can add more blocks of time without busting her budget. Session is booked, deposit paid; final payment due when proofs are received.
CD and team arrive at my home studio at set time. Artists take over 1 1/2 hours on model. Shooting continues 1 1/2 hours past agreed time. So in total, they are at my home studio for 6 hours. The original agreement was for 4 hours.
When I sent her the adjusted invoice for the additional time, her response was to question my billing for hair and makeup.
So I guess my question is to studio photographers. Do you bill CD's and their team to use your creative space for hair and makeup or do you start the clock when you begin shooting?
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 7504
New York, New York, US
Almost every question posted in any forum can be answered with "It depends". For that reason my suggestion is almost always, "Communicate. Talk to the model/photographer before the shoot and make sure that any questions either of you has are answered. The best answer is whatever the parties can agree on."
All IMHO as always, of course.
Photographer
LUNA_PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 259
Wilmington, North Carolina, US
RKD Photographic wrote:
I'm constantly amazed at the cheapskate attitude of some photographers - no wonder some models get bent out of shape when the images are late arriving... 
All of the above activities - talking about the shots, touching-up make-up and signing paperwork - are part of 'the job' - the job you're paying her for.
Since most models charge by the hour and specify a minimum 2 hour booking, how exactly are you going to 'un-bill' her for a 3 minute piss-break?
If she needs a food-break then presumably it's a day-shoot as most models won't 'snack' during a half-day shooting - and you'll be paying a day-rate even if you only pick up the camera for two minutes all day. You seem to be in the minority.
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
First, if only someone had waited a little longer this nerco thread could have been resurrected on the 1 year mark.
Second, as for photographers; I charge a day rate along with usage. If I am responsible for time slip then I eat those costs. If the client wants to add then they can, however that is not likely as they paying based on the project.
If you are getting into per hour or per image then you are open to this nickel and dime business, not good. If the client starts with this and I can't swing them to a project approach then they may not be the client for me.
Photographer
LUNA_PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 259
Wilmington, North Carolina, US
Demeter Photography wrote:
I think you might want to look it up. There is a difference between responding to a discussion forum with your own thoughts vs spending half your day jumping on everyone else's. So yes, it has everything to do with it. +1
RKD please stop thread jacking. You stated you opinion (which is in the minority).
Photographer
Designit - Edward Olson
Posts: 1708
West Hollywood, California, US
Demeter Photography wrote:
I think you might want to look it up. There is a difference between responding to a discussion forum with your own thoughts vs spending half your day jumping on everyone else's. So yes, it has everything to do with it. LUNA_PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
+1
RKD please stop thread jacking. You stated you opinion (which is in the minority). You probably don't realize that you just told someone off for a post made 9 months ago?
Photographer
Bare Essential Photos
Posts: 3605
Upland, California, US
Farenell Photography wrote:
Because I've had models be ready to go after 10 minutes of prep time of doing their own makeup & others still not be ready after 40 minutes, the clock for me usually starts the moment I take the first picture. +1,000
Yes, this is what is generally accepted.
It's definitely not call time. If the model arrives a hour late, do you pay her for that time? Of course not.
It when the photographer starts shooting.
Model
Veronika Vitkina
Posts: 257
Brooklyn, New York, US
I really can't believe there is so much debate on this. If I'm booked from 12-4 that means I'm getting paid from 12-4. If i showed up late i am not getting paid for the time I'm late. If i show up and the photographer asks me to adjust my look (never happened btw) then I'm still on the clock and getting paid. If he wants to sit and talk for 3 hours and shoot for 1 then I'm still getting paid for 4. How many shoots have i done where a photographer is all ready to go but i'm still in hair and makeup, do you really think he is not getting paid for the time he is waiting? This applies to any hired professionals.
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Tim Media wrote:
This is a business. What other business or job pays you to get ready? Many, many other businesses. At a factory, you walk in the door, punch in and then change into work clothes.
And in some you punch in as you walk onto the factory floor heading to your work station.
But, your local Burger joint starts paying you from the moment you are ready to start work.
And when I was a therapist my work day was calculated from the time I was in the office till I had the paperwork done and heading out the door.
And...
And...
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Bare Essential Photos wrote:
+1,000
Yes, this is what is generally accepted.
It's definitely not call time. If the model arrives a hour late, do you pay her for that time? Of course not.
It when the photographer starts shooting. People have said 'call time' or when the model is ready, which ever is later.
And some have said prep time at 50%.
Photographer
mophotoart
Posts: 2118
Wichita, Kansas, US
you agree to a shoot from 1 until 4....clock starts at one with the shoot...pre arrange any other details, mua, travel, (no company pays you to get ready in the morning, driving to work, and they expect you to be there early) as a photographer, I have to budget prep time into my cost...setting studio, set, travel, post work...work out what works,
Photographer
Justin
Posts: 22389
Fort Collins, Colorado, US
Some of us art types don't need much makeup or prep.
If I'm paying, then I usually stipulate "shoot time" in my pay offer. Sometimes that means a drive to a remote location. If the drive takes a while, usually over 30 minutes, I'll offer to pay for drive time.
If it's studio, then again, it's usually shoot time. I don't need or want lavish makeup, and if the shoot is supposed to start at 9:00, I'm not keen on paying for 20-30 minutes of applying makeup and getting dressed (for the model, I mean) before the first strobe goes off.
Photographer
Bare Essential Photos
Posts: 3605
Upland, California, US
Justin wrote:
If it's studio, then again, it's usually shoot time. I don't need or want lavish makeup, and if the shoot is supposed to start at 9:00, I'm not keen on paying for 20-30 minutes of applying makeup and getting dressed (for the model, I mean) before the first strobe goes off. Agreed!
This is the norm.
Photographer
RTE Photography
Posts: 1511
NORTH HOLLYWOOD, California, US
Personally I think you should follow the practice of the entertainment industry. The clock starts at the time you are told to arrive "on set" no matter what state you are in (depending on how you were told to report) and ends after a wrap is called, make-up is removed (if necessary), wardrobe is returned to the stylist and you are dressed for the street.
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Herman Surkis wrote:
Many, many other businesses. At a factory, you walk in the door, punch in and then change into work clothes.
And in some you punch in as you walk onto the factory floor heading to your work station.
But, your local Burger joint starts paying you from the moment you are ready to start work.
And when I was a therapist my work day was calculated from the time I was in the office till I had the paperwork done and heading out the door.
And...
And... Just wanted to point out Herman the person who you are quoting, who understands nothing about how this works, is gone 
Guess that "I an't paying a model to get ready" strategy didn't work out for them
Photographer
Mearle
Posts: 916
Olympia, Washington, US
The answers are so polarized by authoritative declarations of fact about normal convention vs industry standards that I'm not finding this discussion very helpful.
I'll personally just stick with my models coming in ready to shoot and starting the clock when she steps in front of my camera. If there's body painting, life casting, or rigging with rope, I'll cover that too of coarse. I may even pay for her lunch but I'm not going to pay her to eat it. I've done a ton of shoots and frankly this just hasn't been an issue.
A related question might be when does the clock begin for the model to begin paying the photographer when she does the hiring and he's sitting around waiting for her to get ready. I'd be happy to say again, when she steps in front of the camera.
Photographer
Renato Alberto
Posts: 1052
San Francisco, California, US
PigeonFoo wrote:
Often enough when a model shows up for a shoot (not counting shoots with teams, of course. I'm speaking of model and photographer one on one time.) there are things that need to be done after arriving but before you start snapping away.
I always like to show up with my make up on and my hair ready, but sometimes decisions are made and things need to be changed. I also know of models who like to show up fresh-faced to start and then simply do their make up on set according to the look. All understandable situations. Along with the time to get in and out of wardrobe for different looks.
What I'm asking is, for you, when do you start timing the shoot? If you book for two hours, do you count that time to fix make up and get dressed.... or do you like to start timing the shoot according to when the pictures are actually taken?
It's quite the conundrum to me, sometimes, especially in the case of models or photographers who have booked multiple shoots for a single day. Maybe I have just been lucky, but in the 25+ years that I have been shooting, I have never had a problem with this. Normally my team and I show up at the studio about 1 hour before the schedule time shoot to set up, and get things ready. Most models show up about 15 to 30 minutes prior to the start time. We normally start at the scheduled time. Let's say the shoot is scheduled from 10am to 2pm. If there is a MUA and wardrobe stylist on the set, about 10am the model will be in make-up, and we have started. There has been times when we might finish what we have to do 35 minutes late, I have never had a model say "We ran over by 35 minutes, I want more money" or walk off the set at 2pm on the dot. Also we have been done 35 to 45 minutes early, and the customer or I will still pay the model the agreed amount that was on the contract. Although not often there has been a couple of times that we really under estimated the length of time the job would take. When that happens, we talk to the models, and explain that it will take a few more hours then we anticipated, and we compensate them for the extra hours. Never had a model say NO!!!
Although I don't do a lot of TF shoots, I have also never had a model complain if we run a little bit over or under...
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