Forums > General Industry > Have u ever known about violence against models?

Photographer

GER Photography

Posts: 8463

Imperial, California, US

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Really????


Provide some more examples please?

I could step off the curb crossing a traffic light and get violently ran over by a car.  I'm more likely to get murdered by an angry ex-girlfriend than be kidnapped by models again.  So out of easily millions of photo shoots that have happened over the past 10 years, perhaps only one percent have had an occurrence of violence against women?

Any figures at all to back up your premise?  International crime statistics perhaps?

Troll much?

Jun 23 13 05:54 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 45206

San Juan Bautista, California, US

Revenge Photography wrote:

Correct, 4 hours sleep makes me a lazy reader. At the time of the murder/suicide he was her estranged husband.

Oh he was a e-"strange"-d dude alright!  yikes

Jun 23 13 05:55 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 45206

San Juan Bautista, California, US

GER Photography wrote:
Troll much?

How am I trolling?  Do you enjoy fearmongering much?

So instead of calling me a "troll" how about you come up with some facts to support your contention?  What do facts and figures do you base your informative posts on?

Jun 23 13 05:58 pm Link

Photographer

Revenge Photography

Posts: 1905

Horsham, Victoria, Australia

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Really????


Provide some more examples please?

I could step off the curb crossing a traffic light and get violently ran over by a car.  I'm more likely to get murdered by an angry ex-girlfriend than be kidnapped by models again.  So out of easily millions of photo shoots that have happened over the past 10 years, perhaps only one percent have had an occurrence of violence against women?

Any figures at all to back up your premise?  International crime statistics perhaps?

GER Photography wrote:
Troll much?

Given your earlier example of Stratten being irrelevant, as it was her estranged husband that killed her and not a photographer. Asking you to cite verifiable examples is a fair call.

Jun 23 13 06:07 pm Link

Photographer

salvatori.

Posts: 4288

Amundsen-Scott - permanent station of the US, Unclaimed Sector, Antarctica

Ecklipse wrote:
My question is due to the never ending argue about escorts.... "I´m not shooting without my escort", "If you bring an escort there´s no shooting"

I do understand model´s concern about going to a shooting and find out the photographer is actually an sick pervert whose only purpose is to rape her and drop the corpse into a ditch... ok, that was terrible, but you get the point.

So my question is: have you even known about an actual attack against a model or a situation where the model´s life was actually in danger in a shooting due to a violent photographer?

I´m not taking any side in the old discussion about escorts, I do allow escorts in my shootings when the model request me that (I understand them because I shoot bondage and I know not all models are comfortable with that) but I would like to know if have you ever known about a situation that really justify the presence of an escort to save a model from a violent photographer


But anyway, I gotta add, even when I let models bringing escorts when the ask me to, it´s annoying to have a random guy telling you "you should move this light here" or "why don´t you shoot like this"....  I´m like "just shut up already man and let me work, I know how to do it!"

If this happens to you, the escort isn't the problem. You not being able to manage the session is.

Jun 23 13 06:14 pm Link

Photographer

GER Photography

Posts: 8463

Imperial, California, US

Revenge Photography wrote:

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Any figures at all to back up your premise?  International crime statistics

Given your earlier example of Stratten being irrelevant, as it was her estranged husband that killed her and not a photographer. Asking you to cite verifiable examples is a fair call.

Apparently neither the FBI nor the DOJ have online searchable databases with photographer being a searchable criteria, I looked. But Photographers have committed violent crimes against models, it's a fact, it happens and to deny it is rediculus.

My first response was to the OP regarding the case here in California, my second, regarding Dorothy Stratten was answering another responder about the violence coming from someone other than a
photographer.

Jun 23 13 06:24 pm Link

Jun 23 13 06:26 pm Link

Photographer

Joe Wow Photos

Posts: 657

Dayton, Ohio, US

Lorin Edmonds wrote:
Yes

Both times it was her escort that beat her up later

Jun 23 13 06:35 pm Link

Photographer

Joe Wow Photos

Posts: 657

Dayton, Ohio, US

I was goign to say yes I have has 'models' that told me later their escort/boyfriend beat them up

Jun 23 13 06:35 pm Link

Photographer

FullMetalPhotographer

Posts: 2797

Fresno, California, US

Yes I knew a model who was raped and murdered by a photographer in L.A.. I also covered the search for her when I was working for Scripts league. It was a national story, because she was a former NFL cheerleader.

Jun 23 13 06:44 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 45206

San Juan Bautista, California, US

GER Photography wrote:
Apparently neither the FBI nor the DOJ have online searchable databases with photographer being a searchable criteria, I looked. But Photographers have committed violent crimes against models, it's a fact, it happens and to deny it is rediculus.

My first response was to the OP regarding the case here in California, my second, regarding Dorothy Stratten was answering another responder about the violence coming from someone other than a photographer.

I am sure that there have been at least some incidents of violence by photographers against models, but it is extremely rare! 

You have only provided one single example of a photographer murdering a model.  We read of models being killed in car accidents quite frequently on the forums. So I also contend that many more models are killed in automobile accidents than are killed by photographers.  Riding ini a car to a photo shoot is far more dangerous!

Jun 23 13 06:45 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 45206

San Juan Bautista, California, US

Maxximages wrote:
A few incidents from a quick Google search

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Wilder

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/electi … 609.column

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Robert-Go … ida-861175

http://murderpedia.org/male.R/r/rathbun.htm

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/seri … ees/4.html

Ok, so a serial killer who used the premise of being a photographer?

An accused rapist?  What resulted from the trial ... if any?

A rapist who happened to be a photographer, and the victim thought of him as a "friend?"

We've already gone over the killer of Linda Sobek.

Umm ... this is pretty damn extreme!  Stretching it a bit, eh?


Still very little to fearmonger with.

Jun 23 13 06:50 pm Link

Photographer

GER Photography

Posts: 8463

Imperial, California, US

Patrick Walberg wrote:

I am sure that there have been at least some incidents of violence by photographers against models, but it is extremely rare! 

You have only provided one single example of a photographer murdering a model.  We read of models being killed in car accidents quite frequently on the forums. So I also contend that many more models are killed in automobile accidents than are killed by photographers.  Riding ini a car to a photo shoot is far more dangerous!

More people die every year from lightning strikes than from shark attacks, but I still don't swim in the ocean when there are fins in the water even though it may be safe within reason.

Checkout some of the links posted by Maxximages above. It's not that rare.

Jun 23 13 06:52 pm Link

Photographer

FullMetalPhotographer

Posts: 2797

Fresno, California, US

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I am sure that there have been at least some incidents of violence by photographers against models, but it is extremely rare! 

You have only provided one single example of a photographer murdering a model.  We read of models being killed in car accidents quite frequently on the forums. So I also contend that many more models are killed in automobile accidents than are killed by photographers.  Riding ini a car to a photo shoot is far more dangerous!

I had met Linda Sobek when photographing the Raiders.
http://articles.latimes.com/keyword/linda-sobek

I did not know the model but knew of the photographer Bob Shell. This one is not typical but bizarre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Shell

Because of Linda Sobek, I have no great issue with escorts, but I do have guidelines.

Jun 23 13 06:58 pm Link

Photographer

Revenge Photography

Posts: 1905

Horsham, Victoria, Australia

GER Photography wrote:

More people die every year from lightning strikes than from shark attacks, but I still don't swim in the ocean when there are fins in the water even though it may be safe within reason.

Checkout some of the links posted by Maxximages above. It's not that rare.

One of those links is "Melvin Rees -- The Sex Beast" arrested in 1957 .. if its as common as some people claim then it shouldn't be so hard to find recent cases.  When rapes and murders are reported everyday and so few are photographers, I'd say the risk is pretty low.

Jun 23 13 06:58 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 45206

San Juan Bautista, California, US

GER Photography wrote:

More people die every year from lightning strikes than from shark attacks, but I still don't swim in the ocean when there are fins in the water even though it may be safe within reason.

Checkout some of the links posted by Maxximages above. It's not that rare.

I did check each and every link he posted.  Most were not even relevant.

Jun 23 13 07:10 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 45206

San Juan Bautista, California, US

fullmetalphotographer wrote:
I had met Linda Sobek when photographing the Raiders.
http://articles.latimes.com/keyword/linda-sobek

I did not know the model but knew of the photographer Bob Shell. This one is not typical but bizarre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Shell

Because of Linda Sobek, I have no great issue with escorts, but I do have guidelines.

Many of us photographers thought back to how we conducted ourselves and if there was something that could have been done to protect Linda from such a killer.  It was one incident out of how many photo sessions that are done of models in the LA area?  One incident!

The Bob Shell manslaughter conviction?  "Marion Franklin died of a morphine overdose during a bondage-themed photographic session."   Is a morphine overdose violent?   From what I have read, it is not.  Also she was allegedly his girlfriend as well.   I don't think this one counts as violent or one where an escort would have made a difference.

I have no issue what so ever with people.  Again, I never use the word "escort" because it presumes that there is some lack of trust which needs to be built between people.  I love lots of people being around me that are not strangers.  Many models bring mutual friends to our shoots.  We have a blast doing what we love to do!  Everyone is a mutually invited guest ... discussed ahead of time before the shoot.   wink

Uninvited guests are not allowed, and spectators must pay for the ability to attend. We do have mutually agreed upon ticket prices for watching our shoots!  smile

Jun 23 13 07:16 pm Link

Photographer

GER Photography

Posts: 8463

Imperial, California, US

Revenge Photography wrote:

One of those links is "Melvin Rees -- The Sex Beast" arrested in 1957 .. if its as common as some people claim then it shouldn't be so hard to find recent cases.  When rapes and murders are reported everyday and so few are photographers, I'd say the risk is pretty low.

Oh I doubt that it's  even 100th of 1% and all a model really has to do is check references, but there are naive noobe models and some crud "photographers" out there. I've allowed a few "escorts" and haven't had a problem yet, but just in case I have a five shot .22Mag revolver in my pocket when I let someone I don't know into my home, just in case! Safety first!

Jun 23 13 07:18 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 45206

San Juan Bautista, California, US

GER Photography wrote:
Oh I doubt that it's  even 100th of 1% and all a model really has to do is check references, but there are naive noobe models and some crud "photographers" out there. I've allowed a few "escorts" and haven't had a problem yet, but just in case I have a five shot .22Mag revolver in my pocket when I let someone I don't know into my home, just in case! Safety first!

I'm not paranoid of people, so I don't have a gun nor do I have any fear of people I have had the chance to check out.  Strangers ... not in my house.  Invited guests with whom we trust each other, sure!  I've carpooled to events in a van full of models before!  If any of them had a gun, they sure didn't say anything. 

Again, I think you are fearmongering.  I'm the one that got kidnapped by two strangers I met at a nightclub and brought to my studio one night in 1992.  I'm the one who has never had any problems with mutually invited guest in the past 30 years.  I'm the one who can rattle off the very few times I've had a model flake on me on one hand.  Last model to flake on me was March 2006.  All the rants about safety, flakes, and so on are interesting to me because I've got nothing to rant about.

Jun 23 13 07:24 pm Link

Photographer

GER Photography

Posts: 8463

Imperial, California, US

We simply have differing opinions of the world and some of it's inhabitants!:-))

Jun 23 13 07:30 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 45206

San Juan Bautista, California, US

GER Photography wrote:
We simply have differing opinions of the world and some of it's inhabitants!:-))

We have differing perspectives.  I've nearly died in multiple car accidents, fell off the roof of a barn breaking my neck, and almost died from congestive heart failure twice.   Everyday is a joyful blessing for me.  I have no fears of pain or death because of what I've been through.  It is my photographing people that has brought me joy along with belief in the goodness and beauty of the World.  I am not naive, just very alert.  I've been in the bad parts of Oakland, San Francisco, Los Angeles and my hometown of Salinas.   I am police trained, but I never carry a gun.  Quick thinking and a gift of gab have gotten me out of many tight situations.   My will to live is strong.  Yes, you and I have different perspective which give us differing opinions.  Thank you.  wink

Jun 23 13 07:38 pm Link

Photographer

Revenge Photography

Posts: 1905

Horsham, Victoria, Australia

For my own part I used to allow escorts. But a few minor negative experiences have changed my mind.  Generally they add nothing positive to a shoot, but add to the risk of something negative. For instance if an escort flakes the model will too, so the flake risk is doubled.

On top of all that I've found the nervous/paranoid types that tend to demand an escort generally are tense and nervous at a shoot even with an escort and it shows.  So it simply makes better sense for me to dodge that bullet and go with a less nervous model that knows that due diligence and checking references will make her far safer than bringing along an escort.

Jun 23 13 07:48 pm Link

Photographer

FullMetalPhotographer

Posts: 2797

Fresno, California, US

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Many of us photographers thought back to how we conducted ourselves and if there was something that could have been done to protect Linda from such a killer.  It was one incident out of how many photo sessions that are done of models in the LA area?  One incident!

The Bob Shell manslaughter conviction?  "Marion Franklin died of a morphine overdose during a bondage-themed photographic session."   Is a morphine overdose violent?   From what I have read, it is not.  Also she was allegedly his girlfriend as well.   I don't think this one counts as violent or one where an escort would have made a difference.

I have no issue what so ever with people.  Again, I never use the word "escort" because it presumes that there is some lack of trust which needs to be built between people.  I love lots of people being around me that are not strangers.  Many models bring mutual friends to our shoots.  We have a blast doing what we love to do!  Everyone is a mutually invited guest ... discussed ahead of time before the shoot.   wink

Uninvited guests are not allowed, and spectators must pay for the ability to attend. We do have mutually agreed upon ticket prices for watching our shoots!  smile

I covered crime for some 20 plus years as a photojournalist. The odds of serial photographer is very small, it is just to high of a profile for that type. Photographer Charles Rathbun is the closest that I have heard of serial rapist before coming to California there had been complaints but no follow through.

If you look at the numbers I would statistically you will find that amount photographers involved in these incidents is no more or less any other profession. That said I do not someone for being cautious. That is when you are talking about a model who may weigh a 100-120 pounds going to unknown location, I do not have a great issue with an escort.

Realize photographer Charles Rathbun was well established, and had a good local reputation. The other thing to realize you do not hear every case of rape and sexual harassment, they are some of the most under reported crimes and victims privacy is protected as much as possible. If a trail can be avoided, with a plea deal that is often the first choice.

To be blunt you do not hear anything but a small percentage of sexual abuse and rape cases. They rarely make the news.

Jun 23 13 07:50 pm Link

Model

Dekilah

Posts: 5236

Dearborn, Michigan, US

Ecklipse wrote:
So my question is: have you even known about an actual attack against a model or a situation where the model´s life was actually in danger in a shooting due to a violent photographer?

Yes, I have known of an actual attack against a model I knew/had met or by a photographer I knew/had met. In one more notable case a photographer who I had met and who had actually invited me to come to his home to shoot, ended up being arrested (and has since been convicted) on various charges. Later multiple girls, including some models, came forward saying he had either physically violently or sexually assaulted him. There have been other cases where a model told me a story or a photographer told me about a story a model had told them, but I am sure some of those were probably exaggerations, while I am sure some were not. I have personally worked with photographers who were fine and well-behaved with me who later said or did stupid things. Nothing to the point of life threatening, but still not appropriate.

I´m not taking any side in the old discussion about escorts, I do allow escorts in my shootings when the model request me that (I understand them because I shoot bondage and I know not all models are comfortable with that) but I would like to know if have you ever known about a situation that really justify the presence of an escort to save a model from a violent photographer

In the case of bondage, I think it is nice to have someone else around just to avoid any drama or misunderstanding. I am sure there are those that will disagree and I know not everyone can arrange for that, but even as an experienced model I will say that bondage, as in real bondage where I would be unable to get free, requires a lot of trust.

But anyway, I gotta add, even when I let models bringing escorts when the ask me to, it´s annoying to have a random guy telling you "you should move this light here" or "why don´t you shoot like this"....  I´m like "just shut up already man and let me work, I know how to do it!"

That is why I wrote my article: Escort & Assistant Etiquette. I have seen bossy, rude, and distracting escorts so, so many times. It helps to have some basic rules and to make sure people understand what is expected.

Jun 23 13 08:47 pm Link

Photographer

Ecklipse

Posts: 92

Los Angeles, California, US

Dekilah wrote:
In the case of bondage, I think it is nice to have someone else around just to avoid any drama or misunderstanding. I am sure there are those that will disagree and I know not everyone can arrange for that, but even as an experienced model I will say that bondage, as in real bondage where I would be unable to get free, requires a lot of trust.

Totally agree, that´s why I never make any drama when a model ask me that, I understand their point and always agree. I´m surprised most models don´t ask me to bring an escort though... it´s flattering when they give you that trust, but anyway when a model ask me to bring a model I don´t take it bad and always allow it.

But for example, a bikini shooting in Santa Monica beach, just for saying an example...  would it really be necessary to bring an escort? it´s not like the photographer is going to attack and rape the model there in front of everybody

Jun 23 13 09:05 pm Link

Photographer

Chicchowmein

Posts: 14585

Palm Beach, Florida, US

Maxximages wrote:
A few incidents from a quick Google search

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Wilder

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/electi … 609.column

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Robert-Go … ida-861175

http://murderpedia.org/male.R/r/rathbun.htm

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/seri … ees/4.html

ripoff report really?

Because anyone can make up anything and post it there.

BTW the dude that the "model" accused is an attorney and a glorified GWC at best.

Just like anything else in life women should use common sense and keep their wits about them but to imply that a murder, violence and assault is common amongst models and professional photographers is fear mongering.

Have people pretended to be photographers or dangled fortune and fame in front of naive young girl's nose's to get what they want?

Sure.

Just like anything else people need to use their heads and keep their wits about them/

Did you hear about the former MM model and her boyfriend who robbed and bludgeoned a guy to death in Florida?

Yeah, that was something.

Jun 23 13 09:31 pm Link

Photographer

KonstantKarma

Posts: 2513

Campobello, South Carolina, US

I'm so glad someone thought to ask this unusual question!

Jun 23 13 09:33 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 45206

San Juan Bautista, California, US

Dekilah wrote:
In the case of bondage, I think it is nice to have someone else around just to avoid any drama or misunderstanding. I am sure there are those that will disagree and I know not everyone can arrange for that, but even as an experienced model I will say that bondage, as in real bondage where I would be unable to get free, requires a lot of trust.

I've yet to shoot bondage, but if I did, I would request a rigger!  The reason being that I'm not the least bit knowledgeable of tying up models.  I would absolutely have to have an assistant for obvious reasons!  Someday I will shoot it though! 

Every shoot is different in some ... if not many respects!  When I shoot models with horses, not only do I want the model to be very familiar with the horse, but I want an assistant ... preferably the owner or trainer of the horse to be there.  I can think of many reasons why the model and I may agree to have an invited guest who maybe given some duties.  Even a look out at public locations comes in handy. 

Often times I communicate quite a bit with a model before shooting.  We discuss what we may need, and whom we might like to have with us at the shoot.  Planning is done in advance so that there will hopefully be no surprises.  I've done one on one shoots (no one else with us) where it's a simple or common location to myself and/or the model.  We might even carpool to the location.  The trust has been earned over time.

However, I let it be known that if a model feels like they must bring someone because she has fear of the photographer (myself included) doing something inappropriate, then perhaps it's best if she passes on shooting.  If we are meeting for the first time, I understand that bringing a guest might help her be more relaxed and comfortable ... especially if that person is helping with hair, MU, carrying stuff, and making physical adjustments so that I don't have to.  I consider those guests there more for the comfort of the model, not for protection of some imagined bad thing that the photographer might do to her otherwise. 

I like shooting with the same models time and time again as we build trust with each other.  It's my manner of conducting myself honestly that I attribute the lack of problems with regards to models flaking or big bad escorts causing drama.  In fact, I enjoy the lack of drama very much!   No rants from me!  smile

Jun 23 13 09:52 pm Link

Photographer

American Glamour

Posts: 38813

Detroit, Michigan, US

Ya know, let's not pretend that it has never happened.  Of course it has happened.  I know of a half-dozen cases, which if pressed, I can verify for the group.  But what is the point? 

This site has over 1/2 million models on it and there have been a half dozen verified cases of violence (or at least violence that has made the news).  It is a miniscule number.  I think you are more likely to be raped walking down the street.  MM is not anonymous so it takes a foolish criminal to set up a shoot and then kill you.

There have been other things which are non-violent.  There was the Playboy photographer that was arrested in AZ for shooting under aged nudes at CJ's.  We have the San Diego photographer that was doing essentially the same thing.

I don't see the purpose of dissecting all of this.   There are bad eggs in everything.  As a model, I would worry more about people acting inappropriately than violence.  Violence is really quite rare.

Jun 23 13 09:59 pm Link

Photographer

Chicchowmein

Posts: 14585

Palm Beach, Florida, US

GPS Studio Services wrote:
Ya know, let's not pretend that it has never happened.  Of course it has happened.  I know of a half-dozen cases, which if pressed, I can verify for the group.  But what is the point? 

This site has over 1/2 million models on it and there have been a half dozen verified cases of violence (or at least violence that has made the news).  It is a miniscule number.  I think you are more likely to be raped walking down the street.  MM is not anonymous so it takes a foolish criminal to set up a shoot and then kill you.

There have been other things which are non-violent.  There was the Playboy photographer that was arrested in AZ for shooting under aged nudes at CJ's.  We have the San Diego photographer that was doing essentially the same thing.

I don't see the purpose of dissecting all of this.   There are bad eggs in everything.  As a model, I would worry more about people acting inappropriately than violence.  Violence is really quite rare.

yeah you're right

actually the way things are going in this country you're probably more at risk going to school ( mass shooting) or running in a marathon

Jun 23 13 10:03 pm Link

Photographer

Jerry Nemeth

Posts: 33355

Dearborn, Michigan, US

Dekilah wrote:

Ecklipse wrote:
So my question is: have you even known about an actual attack against a model or a situation where the model´s life was actually in danger in a shooting due to a violent photographer?

Yes, I have known of an actual attack against a model I knew/had met or by a photographer I knew/had met. In one more notable case a photographer who I had met and who had actually invited me to come to his home to shoot, ended up being arrested (and has since been convicted) on various charges. Later multiple girls, including some models, came forward saying he had either physically violently or sexually assaulted him. There have been other cases where a model told me a story or a photographer told me about a story a model had told them, but I am sure some of those were probably exaggerations, while I am sure some were not. I have personally worked with photographers who were fine and well-behaved with me who later said or did stupid things. Nothing to the point of life threatening, but still not appropriate.

I´m not taking any side in the old discussion about llama herders, I do allow llama herders in my shootings when the model request me that (I understand them because I shoot bondage and I know not all models are comfortable with that) but I would like to know if have you ever known about a situation that really justify the presence of an llama herder to save a model from a violent photographer

In the case of bondage, I think it is nice to have someone else around just to avoid any drama or misunderstanding. I am sure there are those that will disagree and I know not everyone can arrange for that, but even as an experienced model I will say that bondage, as in real bondage where I would be unable to get free, requires a lot of trust.


That is why I wrote my article: [url=http://www.dekilah.com/2012/05/31/llama herder-assistant-etiquette/]llama herder

Jun 23 13 10:08 pm Link

Photographer

Ecklipse

Posts: 92

Los Angeles, California, US

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I've yet to shoot bondage, but if I did, I would request a rigger!  The reason being that I'm not the least bit knowledgeable of tying up models.  I would absolutely have to have an assistant for obvious reasons!  Someday I will shoot it though!

Just for the record: rigger available here

Jun 23 13 10:08 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 45206

San Juan Bautista, California, US

GPS Studio Services wrote:
Ya know, let's not pretend that it has never happened.  Of course it has happened.  I know of a half-dozen cases, which if pressed, I can verify for the group.  But what is the point? 

This site has over 1/2 million models on it and there have been a half dozen verified cases of violence (or at least violence that has made the news).  It is a miniscule number.  I think you are more likely to be raped walking down the street.  MM is not anonymous so it takes a foolish criminal to set up a shoot and then kill you.

There have been other things which are non-violent.  There was the Playboy photographer that was arrested in AZ for shooting under aged nudes at CJ's.  We have the San Diego photographer that was doing essentially the same thing.

I don't see the purpose of dissecting all of this.   There are bad eggs in everything.  As a model, I would worry more about people acting inappropriately than violence.  Violence is really quite rare.

Certainly you are correct, and I don't think anyone here disagrees that violence against models does happen.  It's the exaggeration of how often it happens that deludes our common sense regarding safety at photo shoots.   Did you notice that we have lost quite a few more models and photographers on this site to car accidents, and even suicides than we have lost to murder?  It's important to keep personal safety in perspective.  Life is short, and it's sad to waste it being unduly paranoid. 

I like to be properly introduced to people who are going to be guests at photo shoots.  Those invited guests are going to serve a function, even if it's to provide some comfort to a new, young and insecure model.  It's the thought that "escorts" must be mandatory that turns me off.

Jun 23 13 10:11 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 45206

San Juan Bautista, California, US

Ecklipse wrote:

Just for the record: rigger available here

Seriously, I maybe taking you up on that!  I've always wanted to try a bondage session.

Jun 23 13 10:13 pm Link

Photographer

Ecklipse

Posts: 92

Los Angeles, California, US

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Seriously, I maybe taking you up on that!  I've always wanted to try a bondage session.

Great, I have proper training and gear, but i only work if I can bring an escort with me.... just kidding, yes, it would be interesting, I sent you an email

Jun 23 13 10:22 pm Link

Photographer

American Glamour

Posts: 38813

Detroit, Michigan, US

GPS Studio Services wrote:
Ya know, let's not pretend that it has never happened.  Of course it has happened.  I know of a half-dozen cases, which if pressed, I can verify for the group.  But what is the point? 

This site has over 1/2 million models on it and there have been a half dozen verified cases of violence (or at least violence that has made the news).  It is a miniscule number.  I think you are more likely to be raped walking down the street.  MM is not anonymous so it takes a foolish criminal to set up a shoot and then kill you.

There have been other things which are non-violent.  There was the Playboy photographer that was arrested in AZ for shooting under aged nudes at CJ's.  We have the San Diego photographer that was doing essentially the same thing.

I don't see the purpose of dissecting all of this.   There are bad eggs in everything.  As a model, I would worry more about people acting inappropriately than violence.  Violence is really quite rare.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Certainly you are correct, and I don't think anyone here disagrees that violence against models does happen.  It's the exaggeration of how often it happens that deludes our common sense regarding safety at photo shoots.   Did you notice that we have lost quite a few more models and photographers on this site to car accidents, and even suicides than we have lost to murder?  It's important to keep personal safety in perspective.  Life is short, and it's sad to waste it being unduly paranoid. 

I like to be properly introduced to people who are going to be guests at photo shoots.  Those invited guests are going to serve a function, even if it's to provide some comfort to a new, young and insecure model.  It's the thought that "escorts" must be mandatory that turns me off.

I have said it many, many times before.  The chances of getting killed or raped is very, very small.  The chances that you will run into someone acting inappropriately (such as a male model who has come here to date rather than pose), is very high.  The chances of running into inappropriate conduct at a bar or club is high as well.  Like anything, models have to be mature enough to say "no" and just walk away.

I agree, it is the exaggeration and fear mongering that bothers me the most.

Jun 23 13 10:29 pm Link

Photographer

zaxpix

Posts: 1988

New Brunswick, New Jersey, US

GPS Studio Services wrote:
...it is the exaggeration and fear mongering that bothers me the most.

True.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Joseph Goebbels

Sometimes, Model Mayhem can be it's own worst enemy.

Z.

Jun 24 13 01:27 am Link

Model

Rachel in GR

Posts: 1656

Grand Rapids, Michigan, US

I don't do escorts, but there have been a handful of times when, if I hadn't had my head firmly on my shoulders, I'd have wished I'd had one. That being said, I don't think I'd necessarily have been KILLED, but... it could have gotten pretty bad. People can be skeezy.

Jun 24 13 08:00 am Link

Model

Dekilah

Posts: 5236

Dearborn, Michigan, US

Ecklipse wrote:
But for example, a bikini shooting in Santa Monica beach, just for saying an example...  would it really be necessary to bring an escort? it´s not like the photographer is going to attack and rape the model there in front of everybody

Fear of physical and/or sexual harm is not the only reason models bring escorts. Some models, particularly newer ones and including myself once upon a time, bring escorts because it helps with their self confidence and makes them feel emotionally secure.

Shooting in a public location, scantily clad (even if others are as well) would probably mean there is more chance (though hopefully still quite small) of someone outside the shoot trying to get a little too friendly with the model. I have done a few shoots in public where some of the guys around wanted to stop and stare or make rude comments to me or the photographer. No huge deal, of course, but I think that is more likely than any real danger.

Jun 24 13 08:16 am Link

Model

Dekilah

Posts: 5236

Dearborn, Michigan, US

Dekilah wrote:
In the case of bondage, I think it is nice to have someone else around just to avoid any drama or misunderstanding. I am sure there are those that will disagree and I know not everyone can arrange for that, but even as an experienced model I will say that bondage, as in real bondage where I would be unable to get free, requires a lot of trust.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I've yet to shoot bondage, but if I did, I would request a rigger!  The reason being that I'm not the least bit knowledgeable of tying up models.  I would absolutely have to have an assistant for obvious reasons!  Someday I will shoot it though!

Personally, I would be comfortable shooting with a rigger I trusted (to be safe) and photographer, even if I had not worked with them before and had not built any personal trust yet. Bondage is just one of those things that can get tricky because for many people it is not only a photographic subject matter they enjoy, but can be a personal fetish. Yes, most people are able to keep that fully under control, but some are not. And if I were to be suspended in midair, tied up, unable to get free, I think I would like a third party there outside of the one doing the tying. Again, I am perhaps especially cautious with this, and honestly I would prefer it be someone like the photographer just to avoid any extra opinions or onlookers.

However, I let it be known that if a model feels like they must bring someone because she has fear of the photographer (myself included) doing something inappropriate, then perhaps it's best if she passes on shooting.  If we are meeting for the first time, I understand that bringing a guest might help her be more relaxed and comfortable ... especially if that person is helping with hair, MU, carrying stuff, and making physical adjustments so that I don't have to.  I consider those guests there more for the comfort of the model, not for protection of some imagined bad thing that the photographer might do to her otherwise. 

I like shooting with the same models time and time again as we build trust with each other.  It's my manner of conducting myself honestly that I attribute the lack of problems with regards to models flaking or big bad escorts causing drama.  In fact, I enjoy the lack of drama very much!   No rants from me!  smile

I think it is good that you recognize that some models do bring escorts not for safety, but for her comfort. I did this for a while, as I had very little self confidence (which I still struggle with in other areas) and having someone along just made me feel at ease. And God knows had anyone tried anything with me, I would have been the one to let them know it was not okay. I can handle that much better than somebody across the room who is only going to know something is up if I say it is. Thankfully, I have had very few issues and all of them relatively minor. And I nixed my "escort" as soon as I got the first complaint that he was causing issues (being chatty). That was quite a while ago now.

And I think the best safety measure a model can reasonably have (sure an armed guard would be awesome at protecting, but so not reasonable) is to do her research, learn to recognize red flags, learn some general safety measures, and learn to be assertive.

Jun 24 13 08:25 am Link