Click Hamilton wrote:
There are also alpha female wannabees (in the Urban Dictionary sense of the expression) around here who do the same thing by manipulating, targeting and harassing men or other women for their ulterior reasons.

This door swings both ways.

Predators, charlatans and opportunists come in all genders.

glumpy wrote:
HAHAHAHA!

Classic!

Of course there are those that get upset when everyone else doesn't get upset over something as they think they ought to be so they have something to preach to the choir about.

the only ones who seem to be getting upset in this thread are you and Click.

And over what?

A simple point that violence isn't just a physical manifestation.


Seriously.  Why is it so upsetting for some MM photographers to rationally discuss the issue of violence and inappropriate photographers on MM?

BeautybyGod wrote:
i could have responded to more claims i'm pretty sure people can't back up, but i was busy yesterday.

what you did say...

i made my case. you either have evidence to support your claim... or you don't.

i'm guessing you don't.

what I don't have is the inclination to prove a point with links that any person that's been alive for 20 years knows is inarguable. If someone has to post a drawn out boring list of links because you don't have the common knowledge to automatically know this is true, then it's pointless trying to discuss the topic or educate you.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
Seriously.  Why is it so upsetting for some MM photographers to rationally discuss the issue of violence and inappropriate photographers on MM?

Because it's being discussed and admitted it occurs but some people want to blow it out of proportion and over dramatise the topic.

What's YOUR solution to this "once is too much" problem that will make it never happen again?

glumpy wrote:
what I don't have is the inclination to prove a point with links that any person that's been alive for 20 years knows is inarguable. If someone has to post a drawn out boring list of links because you don't have the common knowledge to automatically know this is true, then it's pointless trying to discuss the topic or educate you.

bad excuse.

well just so you know, i DID check other professions for similar info and links... before i ever first posted that link list... and no other profession i checked even comes close. especially over the last few years and when you add up the number of victims.

policemen, doctors, dentists = no

what you don't have is any real knowledge to back up your statement. it seems pretty safe to say you didn't have any idea about the amount of photographers arrested and convicted. i doubt anybody did, including myself.


it seems to me, it would be easy enough to show your position to be correct, if it is.

note: post edited

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
Seriously.  Why is it so upsetting for some MM photographers to rationally discuss the issue of violence and inappropriate photographers on MM?

'Cause some folks project?

glumpy wrote:
So what is your answer?
As you point out, we are humans first and what ever else 2nd.

There is no "answer" because you are talking about controlling other's actions. You will never get rid of unwanted behaviour completely, but taking whatever steps is comfortable is as close as you can get. Like checking references, making sure people know precisely where you are and who you are working with, having someone like an mua for example there so you are not alone with someone who is a stranger to you or have never met before, etc etc. Lots of things you can do to attempt to make it a safer environment but obviously like anywhere else there are never going to be any 100 percent guarantees in anything we do. Always a risk in some way.   

glumpy wrote:
Please point out with detail and precision, exactly where anyone here has said it never happens.

You have made comments to others about semantics but you seem to like to play those types of games to make an argument so I will play along... What I wrote specifically was..."making it seem like it never happens" not what you stated I said which was that I claimed someone specifically "said" "it never happens" however there are many posts claiming it to be so very rare in an obvious attempt to ...(I will put it this way instead for your benefit as it seems I have to be even more clear and precise).....make it seem like it happens far less often then it does. I am hopeful you are capable of reading them for yourself they are spread throughout the pages of this thread.

Chicchowmein wrote:
since it is so common you should be able to cite some legitimate cases and sources

or

Art of the nude wrote:
Best evidence I've seen, in anything approximating a typical MM shoot, it happens once every five to ten years.

Just two quick ones there..... I am sure you get the point.

glumpy wrote:
The only people that are proposing the perfect world scenario are the ones with the " One time is too many" BS.
Apply that to life  and no one will ever be born because one still birth is one time too many so better give up on life before it starts.

So because we cannot possibly stop it from happening all together we should just not do anything and accept it as just something that happens right. Yea good idea there. Hope it doesn't happen to your daughter, sister, niece, etc. and you still have that opinion. Wonder if you would sit her down and say look, this kind of thing happens so rarely, this was just a fluke thing. I do not think anyone (I certainly am not) saying live in a bubble because these people exists and these things happen, but to dismiss it as just oh well shit happens(rarely apparently)...that I don't understand at all.

glumpy wrote:
While the shooters are copping all the flack here from the feminist supporters, How about the models pull their fingers out of their arses and do some checking on who they are working with instead of crying poor me afterwards.

Is it still just "poor me" when everything they can do to research someone from here checks out and something happens anyway? or you are just naïve enough to believe that because many of us are legit photographers just looking to work and shoot there aren't other photographers with motives beyond that who have studios, working etc. 

glumpy wrote:
The miniscule amount f people I have had check me out before hand is real testimony as to how few take this basic and straightforward safeguard.
And please , no on give me the " But they were only new so didn't understand or know better " crap.

There is endless discussions like this on the net as well as all modeling sites having cautions and head's up to be aware of. The fact is 99% of models are too lazy to put any effort into anything they do, Much easier to garner sympath after the event.

I agree that models need to check up on the people they plan to work with, and that there are many who I am sure do not do so near enough, but because you didn't hear about it you can assume models don't do a search on you or talk to models you have worked with?  Quite the assumption there. You may be surprised.

glumpy wrote:
"The fact is 99% of models are too lazy to put any effort into anything they do"

This about sums up the attitude I constantly see you posting in regards to models, I have often wondered why you are even on this site as my assumption was that these were the "lazy" people (99 percent by your count anyway) you were trying to connect and work with. Good luck with that.

BeautybyGod wrote:
did you guys even read this whole thread?

Yes, I have and it's a damn book!!!! 

The point has already been made time and time again that violence against people by other people happens ... sometimes when one is in an authority position such as teacher, clergy, police, doctor or photographer.  Violence most often occurs between significant others.  These are facts that no one denies.  I have already mentioned time and time again that using due diligence in communication is of key importance when meeting up with strangers, however, one is more in danger of being attacked by someone they are very familiar with. 

You can post all you want, but it will not change these facts nor make those who have a habit of insisting on bringing an escort any safer.  Communication is key!

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
A simple point that violence isn't just a physical manifestation.

No one doubts that is the truth. 

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
Seriously.  Why is it so upsetting for some MM photographers to rationally discuss the issue of violence and inappropriate photographers on MM?

It's not a problem or upsetting at all.  We can discuss all day and night about the issue of violence and inappropriate behavior by teachers, clergy, police, doctors, as well as photographers all the time!  Sad that no one understands that the solution is not fear mongering, but to come up with positive ideas for using ones brain.  Due diligence works better than simply believing you are safe if you bring a bodyguard.

My rule of "No strangers" works wonders!  I have no issues with people carefully checking me out as well as I check them out.  I am the photographer who has been kidnapped before by two women in 1992, and I have learned that using common sense works wonders!  Learn from the experience!  Don't be a stranger, and don't model or photograph ANYONE that you consider a stranger!

Jeffrey M Fletcher wrote:

re:Doctors - your statement would be true for the clients of doctors, not so for the nurses, medical assistants, receptionists, etc., who work with and for the doctors. Any of those people would be very quickly without a job if they started any silliness about bringing their bf, boyfriend, mum, manager or companion to work with them for their safety.

Yes, but i can only assume the statistics mainly refer to doctors attacking patients, so that's not entirely relevant. Of course none of it is relevant since, like most of the job comparisons that go on, it's a completely apples vs oranges scenario.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
My rule of "No strangers" works wonders!

You will never work in the real commercial industry.

This attitude and arbitrary stance is simply out of keeping with the realities of work as I have witnessed in over 20 years as a magazine and advertising photographer. Extra people come to shoots. Models bring escorts; rappers bring entourages.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Hundreds of threads on "escorts" have been posted in this forum, but if I had a dollar for everytime that using "due diligence" has been brought up, I'd be able to pay off a lot of bills!   Yet that is your answer!

i wish i had a dollar for every time you brought up how you were kidnapped by the aryan amazons.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
My rule of "No strangers" works wonders!

Dan Howell wrote:
You will never work in the real commercial industry.

This attitude and arbitrary stance is simply out of keeping with the realities of work as I have witnessed in over 20 years as a magazine and advertising photographer. Extra people come to shoots. Models bring escorts; rappers bring entourages.

Ah yes, but this isn't the mainstream commercial industry.  That is why we have to have escort threads every week.

Dan Howell wrote:
You will never work in the real commercial industry.

This attitude and arbitrary stance is simply out of keeping with the realities of work as I have witnessed in over 20 years as a magazine and advertising photographer. Extra people come to shoots. Models bring escorts; rappers bring entourages.

You misunderstand my meaning of "strangers."   I have worked in the real world for over 30 years as a photographer.   At portrait studios, potential clients made appointments.  Couples interested in hiring me as their photographer always met with me in person first.  Models who are going to shoot with me will exchange information and speak on the phone at least once before shooting.  Most everyone will have exchanged information with me.  When they are going to bring a MUA, another model, an assistant, or a musician ... yes, I get asked before anyone brings a guest, and I ask the person with whom I am shooting if I wish to bring a guest for many reasons. 

With every photo session, I know who to expect will show up because it's already been discussed.  Guests are welcome as long as it's been discussed and is mutually agreed upon by all parties.  Only once have I had a situation where I had to turn away someone who came knocking at the studio door ... the uninvited boyfriend of one of the models I was shooting in a two model shoot.

By the way for a point of interest, I've specialized in shooting music since I first picked up a camera as a teenager.  One of my favorite artists to shoot with is a female rap artist with whom I've shot with since she started.  I know every person in her entourage.  It's nothing new to me because I am properly introduced before hand.

BeautybyGod wrote:

i wish i had a dollar for every time you brought up how you were kidnapped by the aryan amazons.

Still pales greatly to the number of threads posted about escorts. 

GPS Studio Services wrote:
Ah yes, but this isn't the mainstream commercial industry.  That is why we have to have escort threads every week.

 

I think you "get" me.  It is not often that a commercial studio has a walk in client from the street.  Most have some sort of communication via email, messages, and even phone calls before shooting.  I use these forms of communication to check people out before shooting if at all possible!  They don't seem like such strangers once proper information has been exchanged.

DarrylPascoePhotography wrote:
Lots of things you can do to attempt to make it a safer environment but obviously like anywhere else there are never going to be any 100 percent guarantees in anything we do. Always a risk in some way.

Agreed.

So that puts pay to the altruistic  but impractical " Once is too much" Bleating.
It is, but you are never going to stop it.

What I wrote specifically was..."making it seem like it never happens" not what you stated I said which was that I claimed someone specifically "said" "it never happens" however there are many posts claiming it to be so very rare in an obvious attempt to ...(I will put it this way instead for your benefit as it seems I have to be even more clear and precise).....make it seem like it happens far less often then it does. I am hopeful you are capable of reading them for yourself they are spread throughout the pages of this thread.

Go back and count up how many time I have categorically and flat out said it DOES happen. I still don't for a minute believe it is the problem people here make it out be though.
Long lists of incidents where it is unknown how any involved were actual shooters over people posing to be in order to lure people in, how many models actually did ANY checking before they went with them and what time frame these incidents occurred over prove absolutely nothing other than human nature.

But to be fair and also play your side of the game, if it is as bad as you believe, what's the solution? The only one I can see is to shut down sites like this and ban photographing models unless you are licenced and checked out to do so.

Saying models should check out the people they work with and do their home work is laughable even though I say it myself.  As long as I have been on the net, ( and I started earlier than a lot of people) There have been people and sites advising/ imploring models to check out who they want to work with.

The fact remains the greatest majority just don't do it.  If they haven't got the message in 10+ years, they sure as hell aren't suddenly going to wake up to themselves now.

So because we cannot possibly stop it from happening all together we should just not do anything and accept it as just something that happens right. Yea good idea there. Hope it doesn't happen to your daughter, sister, niece, etc. and you still have that opinion.

No it won't happen to my daughter or Niece. I'll make sure of that by not letting them have the lazy and complacent attitude 99% of net models have.

My niece wanted to be a model and I flat out forbade she stuff around with internet modeling. They family knew I was serious enough that there was going to be some serious fireworks if she did and they also knew that I cared enough to go apeshit if she tried.

She is in my folio and I shot her and gave her mother a list of reputable agencies to go see. I knew she wouldn't get into them because as biased as I might be, I knew her looks were not the problem but lacking about 12" in height was certainly going to be.

If she wants to play model which she does from time to time, her and I ( and usually my wife and sister in law) go out and make a bit of a day of it.
Fulfills her need of wanting pics for self confidence and to look back on and keeps her well out of harms way.

If her or my daughter did want to dabble in the internet modeling cesspool, I/ They would know the shooter was legit before the 2nd email to them.
Half the folios on sites like this you can pick the slimeballs just by looking at their profiles and pics. And no one get on your high horse about that, I'm not going to explain it and give such people a tutorial in hiding the red flags.

Is it still just "poor me" when everything they can do to research someone from here checks out and something happens anyway?

And how many times does that happen?
If people did their homework with due diligence, it wouldn't be as many as however many it is now. 
I think we have already agreed that you can't eliminate the problem or human nature so I would suggest it fits the ultimate agenda and wishes of everyone here.
I really believe that's pie in the sky though because the laziness of models on sites like this is proven beyond argument so as I said, I can't see a 180o turn around in the attitudes now.

or you are just naïve enough to believe that because many of us are legit photographers just looking to work and shoot there aren't other photographers with motives beyond that who have studios, working etc.

On the contrary.
I think internet modeling is a cesspit of creeps and perverts. If the stories I have heard from models are just 10% true, it more than bears out my beliefs. Looking at so many folios on sites like this confirms all other suspicions.

I agree that models need to check up on the people they plan to work with, and that there are many who I am sure do not do so near enough, but because you didn't hear about it you can assume models don't do a search on you or talk to models you have worked with?  Quite the assumption there. You may be surprised.

No, I wouldn't be.
For one thing I have used a site that had basically no connections  or links to who I am.  Further more, I'm a huge believer in market research and I ask each and every person I work with why they wanted to shoot with me, who else they have worked with and how do they check out the shooters they work with in advance.
Basic marketing questions I apply to clients and everyone else I  work with in my business.

I would bet my arse If I put up a folio here with all the red flags like offering stupid amounts of money for girls to be in magazines and made the shoot details as dodgy as all get out and even set up a couple of fake folios that I referenced and gave BAD references, I'd still get people wanting to work with me because they would allow greed and stupidity to take over from common sense whichfew models seem to have.

Do you think if I did that I'd get no takers?
Dunno if it's allowable to do that here but if it is I'd be more than happy to set it up to prove the point.

glumpy wrote:
"The fact is 99% of models are too lazy to put any effort into anything they do"

This about sums up the attitude I constantly see you posting in regards to models, I have often wondered why you are even on this site as my assumption was that these were the "lazy" people (99 percent by your count anyway) you were trying to connect and work with. Good luck with that.

Yeah well you can try to twist it as being some  non creditable attitude I have but it's well borne out.  I "connect" with very few people from modeling sites these days, it just isn't worth the effort to write 100 emails to get 10 responses 9 of which drop off after telling you how great the concept sounds and how excited they are about working with you and you propose a shoot date.

I have real good "Luck" finding people for test shoots off the street and I don't have to deal with the flakes or people wanting to bring butt wipers " For their safety" and other crap that goes with net modeling attitudes.

anyway, I'm getting bored with this discussion now and stating the same things over and over that have already been said.  The opposition is coming up with nothing to give me something to think about in changing my mind or validating their own position to give it any credibility or worth.

Lets just say that Violent assaults on models happen 10 times a day, every single day.

So what?
What is the practical and effective solution people have to stop it and how are you going to implement to fix the problem rather than just bleating about it which does nothing.


Thats the real question.

glumpy wrote:
I would bet my arse If I put up a folio here with all the red flags like offering stupid amounts of money for girls to be in magazines and made the shoot details as dodgy as all get out and even set up a couple of fake folios that I referenced and gave BAD references, I'd still get people wanting to work with me because they would allow greed and stupidity to take over from common sense which few models seem to have.

Do you think if I did that I'd get no takers?

For sure I've seen over the years that posts in other forums with the craziest, wildest bogus sounding offers and claims alway got the most responses from models.

glumpy wrote:
"The fact is 99% of llamas are too lazy to put any effort into anything they do"

That could be said about people in a lot of occupations and hobbies right here in the United States.  That might be why 1% have most of the money? 

Yes, it is a fact that only about 1% of the members of this website are active users of it.  It's not really a "cesspool" but more like a minority consisting of apathetic people who like complaining.  The loudest ones get heard?

glumpy wrote:
I would bet my arse If I put up a folio here with all the red flags like offering stupid amounts of money for girls to be in magazines and made the shoot details as dodgy as all get out and even set up a couple of fake folios that I referenced and gave BAD references, I'd still get people wanting to work with me because they would allow greed and stupidity to take over from common sense which few models seem to have.

Do you think if I did that I'd get no takers?

I know for a fact that you'd get plenty of "takers!"   This website has some fakes, spammers, scammers, and general creepy no gooders.  Most people are too lazy to use due diligence in checking references, talking to other people on the phone (something we had no choice but to do back in the dark ages before the Internet) and basically using communication skills along with good old fashion intuition.  I'm afraid that the Internet has given people confidence to be less alert ... not more aware like they should be.  A "body guard" shouldn't be necessary.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
did you notice your post had nothing to do models experiencing violence at a photoshoot?


maybe try and stay on point?

I was exactly on point, Ms. Patchouli.

You are just trying to spin it into something else.

Stop trolling. Soapbox is dead. I'm not going to respond to your word games and false pretense. Have a nice day.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Most people are too lazy to use due diligence in checking references, talking to other people on the phone (something we had no choice but to do back in the dark ages before the Internet)

Ah, here we go, the good old days before the net and when you had to use film and walk 20 miles to school on a dirt road that was all up hill both ways and bread was 10C a loaf. 

Mate, I couldn't agree with you more even if that is the sort of ignorant attitude most of the digital snappers have about " the old days".

The thing was when you had to put some effort into approaching people and personally communicate, there was none of the crap there is now. I have NEVER had anyone I have approached in the street want to bring a buttwiper to a shoot.  They had spoken to you or met you in person beforehand and already made their determination if you were legit or not. some asked if you had references which back then they took to be more in the form of a letter. I used to get a few of them but being lazy, it was easier just to supply some names and phone numbers.
None of this fabricated Internet BS that infects so many things these days.

Geez, I remember loads of mothers dropping off 16 yo girls to my studio to shoot with me and the only concern was what time they should come back to pick them up. It was a bit later when -I- became concerned about things that I started asking the parents to stay. Even then, plenty of them thought there was nothing to worry about and I was being overly concerned.

There was one girl I worked with numerous times and I lined her up an interstate job I was shooting. The mother rang and asked if it would be OK if she came with me and stayed in my room with me so I could keep an eye on her if that was OK?
The girl was still only 17 and the parents were quite protective of her.  I made some comment asking if the mother thought that it was really wise to send their beautiful young daughter interstate with an ugly old man and the mother replied that she knew I thought of the girl like a little sister and the only concern she had was if I got too overly protective with any young men that wanted to come talk to her and kicked their backsides.

When I took the girl home, I found the parents had invited my wife over and made us a fantastic meal as a thank you for me looking after the daughter and brought us both a small gift.
I wouldn't even contemplate doing that these days unless it was a family member and as I don't have any that fit the bill, never going to happen again.

That was the sort of thing that did make the old days great. Trust, respect, decency and honour. Things weren't perfect but they sure weren't as fked up as they are now that's for sure!


I still approach people directly and it still yields hugely better results than web sites. Obviously young people even prefer the old fashioned values and methods and it instills more confidence in them that just going through a web site.

glumpy wrote:
I recently put up a casting call  and mentioned twice that I do figure and nude work and stated plainly and specifically 4 times that I wanted to do some topless shots in the shoot and only models comfortable with that need apply.

I have an application from a girl that seems half a chance, enthusiastic, seems creative and we talk about styles and themes of shots I want to do which she says she is excited about.

On the day she turns up with not just one but 2 wannabe henchmen. I tell her I don't allow escorts and a discussion develops and she says neither is her BF, they are just friends. I ask if she is going to be comfortable doing topless shots in front of them and then get the shock horror reaction that she didn't know that's what the shoot was " about" and I had made no mention of it.

I ask if she actually read the casting or just clicked on all of them?
I go to the laptop, Pull up the casting still on the site and ask her to read it and tell me how many times it categorically state that topless shots are a requirement.

They all read and then she states she didn't see that. I ask if stating something 4 times isn't enough, how many times did she think I should mention it?
One of the handbags decides to get assertive and says she won't be doing topless shots so it's that or nothing. I say OK,  see ya later.
Then they get all pissy because I have wasted their time!
Stuff me!

This isn't the first time this has happened, it's about the 4th  in the last 18 months.
Another reason why web sites are such an inefficient way to recruit models.

I don't know if they really are that stupid and illiterate or they like the sound of the concept and want to do it even though they are aware they don't fit the stated criteria.
I make a point now of making sure I state ( again) in the preshoot arrangement discussions that I require topless shots and to please verify they are comfortable with that.
 
You just can't take anything logical and obvious as a given.
I would have thought it would go without saying that someone knew there was topless shots involved in a shoot when it's written FOUR times in the casting but I obviously give many of these people too much credit in the intelligence department.

It may help if you do the same as I do and get a written confirmation that they know you are going to tickle them during the shoot and are OK with that.
Hard for them to whine when you have their confirmation on something before you shoot but I'm not so stupid as to think they wouldn't anyway.
I know better than that.


When you say these girls are taking the money and leaving, you don't mean before you actually photograph them do you?
if that's the case, don't offer payment till the shoots is done.

I feel you

Not long ago I posted a Casting Call for a bondage shooting... the title of the Casting Call was "Model needed for bondage shooting (being tied up and gagged), I mentioned that model must be ok with being tied like 6 times in the casting call.


A model replied, really interested... I asked her to take a look to my portfolio, I asked her for an email address to send her some samples of my work and I mentioned the bondage subject like a lot of times, she was like ok, I´m really interested

the day of the shooting she showed up, we started the shooting and I told her that we would do some photos before the tied up thing, and she was like "the what?"

-"The tied up thing, it´s a soft bondage shooting, did you take a look to the pictures I sent you?
-"Which pictures?"
-"Those I sent to your email... did you take a look to my portfolio in MM?"
-"Uh, not really"
-"... ok, did you read the Casting Call at all?"
-"uh, well, no... I just reply every casting call in my area"

I had to show her my portfolio there, in my laptop... she was like "ok, looks fun, let´s do it"... we shot, but anyway I should have stopped the shooting right there, because I´m risking myself, these kind of models are so unstable

I don´t doubt there has been attacks against models, as some people as posted here, that´s terrible and I totally condemn that, but I also believe most of the "attacks" are pure b*llsh!t from unstable drama queens

glumpy wrote:
Go back and count up how many time I have categorically and flat out said it DOES happen. I still don't for a minute believe it is the problem people here make it out be though.
Long lists of incidents where it is unknown how any involved were actual shooters over people posing to be in order to lure people in, how many models actually did ANY checking before they went with them and what time frame these incidents occurred over prove absolutely nothing other than human nature.

I don't remember saying that YOU claimed it didn't happen. But to answer the other part of your statement I would say its a bigger problem then most here make it out to be. Mostly due to their lack of wanting models to believe they need to bring "escorts" to shoots. Hence how forum topics like this proceed to start pissing matches between two sides of an argument that really never ends with anything but stupidity in most cases. This is also coming from someone who prefers that models not bring anyone that isn't part of the shoot process and is vocal about it in my correspondence if asked. I also 99 percent of the time have a team on every shoot period anyway. That being said if I really want to work with a model and they feel comfortable bringing someone along due to have never met me etc etc, whatever they can sit in the lounge area away from the shoot area anyway they wont be a bother.

glumpy wrote:
But to be fair and also play your side of the game, if it is as bad as you believe, what's the solution? The only one I can see is to shut down sites like this and ban photographing models unless you are licenced and checked out to do so.

I do think sites like this need to be much more strict on their policies on how photographers and others get accepted to being a part of it. I have been vocal about that for some time within this site despite the fact that I am sure unfortunately I don't think much will change there. This site claims to be something that right now its not even close to. It doesn't need to be that way.

glumpy wrote:
Saying models should check out the people they work with and do their home work is laughable even though I say it myself.  As long as I have been on the net, ( and I started earlier than a lot of people) There have been people and sites advising/ imploring models to check out who they want to work with.

The fact remains the greatest majority just don't do it.  If they haven't got the message in 10+ years, they sure as hell aren't suddenly going to wake up to themselves now.

Some will not do what is smart and check things out really well, that being said doing that alone can only do so much. Remember that the way this site among others is set up, you don't know who is writing the profiles, messages, etc completely. When a model looks up.... "mayhem photographer" all they will see is whatever the person behind that name has placed unless others have written things about them. How much do you think checking online through the name used on this site will tell them who the person behind the name is? and whether that person has other motives? and when things happen there is always a first time....the poor model that gets caught being that persons first inappropriate experience had no references that would have said he did anything bad before. That's if they would even have access to any model that the person would have caused a problem for. You think the guy is going to offer that info to someone that he shot that model at all?

glumpy wrote:
No it won't happen to my daughter or Niece. I'll make sure of that by not letting them have the lazy and complacent attitude 99% of net models have.

My niece wanted to be a model and I flat out forbade she stuff around with internet modeling.

You mean with all the advice you can give about checking references and the fact that you could even look up these potential photographers you still don't trust internet modelling for your niece?..interesting.

glumpy wrote:
She is in my folio and I shot her and gave her mother a list of reputable agencies to go see. I knew she wouldn't get into them because as biased as I might be, I knew her looks were not the problem but lacking about 12" in height was certainly going to be.

If she wants to play model which she does from time to time, her and I ( and usually my wife and sister in law) go out and make a bit of a day of it.
Fulfills her need of wanting pics for self confidence and to look back on and keeps her well out of harms way.

its great that your niece has you to shoot with her so she doesn't have to worry about the stuff independent models have to go through....see you said earlier it is not as bad as some on here are saying it can be, however you wouldn't let your own niece step two feet in the internet modelling world due to concern for her. (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) Most models do not have the access to an uncle who is a professional photographer to do that for them, and maybe they have a passion to do this despite not being born with the height to get agent representation for example. You think they should just not do it? or find their uncle bob to do it so they don't have to worry about it?

glumpy wrote:
If her or my daughter did want to dabble in the internet modeling cesspool, I/ They would know the shooter was legit before the 2nd email to them.

I can bet you wouldn't in all cases know that. See the thing is...I know of some agency represented models (high end agency...ford and next LA) that I have had the pleasure of working with that have told me of similar stories when they were sent out by the agency. Mind you those photographers may lose out on getting any more shoots through the agency (if the model isn't too scared to say something to someone about what happened), and its not just the model alone with the photographer in those situations...it can still go wrong, the model can still be mistreated etc etc. (though yes of course less likely then in the internet modelling world)

glumpy wrote:
Half the folios on sites like this you can pick the slimeballs just by looking at their profiles and pics. And no one get on your high horse about that, I'm not going to explain it and give such people a tutorial in hiding the red flags.

I agree in some cases you can see who possibly may have other motives....sometimes...maybe.

glumpy wrote:
If people did their homework with due diligence, it wouldn't be as many as however many it is now.

Yep this is true..they would avoid some of them for sure.

glumpy wrote:
On the contrary.
I think internet modeling is a cesspit of creeps and perverts. If the stories I have heard from models are just 10% true, it more than bears out my beliefs. Looking at so many folios on sites like this confirms all other suspicions.

I agree much of sites like this that have such a weak system of allowing just about anyone into it, you are bound to get a large number of creeps, which is why that the women who do this as a job or even serious hobby need to be very careful while doing it. That's what surprises me about some of the attitudes from some people when discussing security measures that some people take to try their best to avoid problems. Instead of slamming them for trying to remain safe using multiple methods they may feel comfortable with they are told "would you do this and ask about bringing someone at your office job"...no but I wouldn't start checking all my office coworkers on google to check them out and figure out as much as I could about them to make sure they were all legit either. I doubt many would if they were being honest. This is a different animal of job and models should be careful more than a typical job.

glumpy wrote:
Do you think if I did that I'd get no takers?
Dunno if it's allowable to do that here but if it is I'd be more than happy to set it up to prove the point.

Of course you would get some people who are not acting smart enough to avoid that stuff. Just like you get some people who are doing it.

glumpy wrote:
It just isn't worth the effort to write 100 emails to get 10 responses 9 of which drop off after telling you how great the concept sounds and how excited they are about working with you and you propose a shoot date.

Yes I hear that all the time from others, I guess I have been lucky to avoid that stuff. Very few times have I ever in the years I have taken pictures of models whether it be from this site or others or wherever I get them from that they flake on me or dropping off after responding. In fact I can count on one hand over the total time I've been shooting. Over ten years. And so far I have had one model from here since using this site that didn't come to a shoot and she messaged me to tell me the circumstances a couple days before. I guess it's just the area I am in on top of how I use the site and communicate through it and the models I choose to message and attempt to collaborate with. 

glumpy wrote:
I have real good "Luck" finding people for test shoots off the street and I don't have to deal with the flakes or people wanting to bring butt wipers " For their safety" and other crap that goes with net modeling attitudes.

First you complain they don't do enough to feel that they are taking care of their safety but its fine as long as they do so in the way you think they should do it right. Gotcha. What if they research you and say okay well all seems fine, but to be sure I am going to bring someone so I am not alone with you because despite me checking you out, I don't know you at all. Let me guess...you don't think to yourself...oh well look she's being really smart and making sure she takes every added precaution available to her. Instead like some others you take it personal like she is insulting you by somehow attacking you  (someone she doesn't know at all) and making you feel all hurt that she doesn't just automatically trust you cause other people have said your great. Funny that for your niece, even checking references doesn't make you feel confident to let her get into internet modelling, as I am sure you could make sure she checked references and googled the people. yet if its you we are discussing its an insult for a model to worry about her safety. Again I prefer nobody that isn't part of the shoot myself as well, but I don't tear down anyone that is trying to make sure they take care of themselves and avoid problem situations. So I get it now....checking references and checking out through online searches etc is sufficient for models to do (as long as its not your niece cause no way she can get into this) and that's enough....cause you don't want escorts.


You are right about the real question being what can we all do to make the situation better. Like anything else, will never clear it all up completely but thankfully there are many viable options to at least somewhat avoid many of the problems. If they models use them.

Emma Anne wrote:
The life of the model is not the only thing she may be worried about. What if she's propositioned for sex? Asked to do things she's not comfortable with? Maybe it's a confidence thing?

Ahhh, so what?

Girls never get asked for sex when they go out to clubs and concerts or even get hit on at work? They never had bosses proposition them or ask them to do " Things they weren't' comfortable with??

This is exactly the type of comment that undermines the attitudes and position of people on discussions like this. They make out that undesirable things only happen in one unique situation which is crap. It' happens in every day life so why don't you make note and complain about that as well?
In work situations as far as I'm aware in most places it's illegal but I would think there would be few girls out there that have never had it happen to them and a damn site fewer that haven't had it happen more than once.

Shit, even I have been propositioned twice in my life time, both times during shoots. If that has happened to an ugly muther like me, pretty girls must get it on a weekly basis especially when they got to clubs and dances etc.

Trying to make out it's some shock horror thing when it happens in tiddly winks modeling situations is laughable and another example of the standards people propose not cutting both ways.

Many photographers seem to take models' feelings and emotions for granted. Models expose their bodies, hearts and souls on display for photographers who think the model is just another warm body.

No idea what you mean about feelings and emotions but it's obviously another road mined with semantics and soft of heart and head arguments that a load  of other things in life could be equally applied to.

As for exposing  bodies, hearts and souls, Yeah, again exactly the same when these sweet innocent cherubs go to clubs wearing next to nothing in order to get all the attention they can and hit on every good looking guy in the joint.
Only difference is there it's doof doof music instead of the Violins you are trying to create the sound effect here of.

IF your position is that models are hard done by or the modeling game isn't fair to models, then the one thing you can't deny is if they don't like it, no one is holding a gun to their head to continue.

I wouldn't allow my daughter to go near net modeling. I know for a fact it's full of weirdos and perverts and thats not just the shooters. The thing is that while people complain about the problems, so few do so little to prevent them.
That being the case, it's hard to get oneself in a tizz over the bad thiongs that happen when a huge amount of them are preventable with a little due dilligense and common sense.

When the majority of people do all they can to prevent problems you'll find no one more outspoken against what does happen than me.
When people bitch and whine without getting off their backsides to prevent problems, then sympathy from me is going to be thin.

I am both lazy and complacent and anal and pedantic.
When people carry on about problems or dangers or my pet annoyance, safety and I don't have a problem with it, I won't concern myself with anything other than I do already.
When I do have legitimate fears, concerns or bad experiences with things, then my attitude is that you would give and do a lot after the fact to prevent that happening so why not pay your dues upfront and do all you can to prevent a situation you don't want to be in?

A simple example, yesterday I helped a friend take a load of rubbish to the dump in my trailer. HE comments about how I went to a lot of trouble to cover and tie it all down so there was no chance it would fall off on the road.

As I said, it's much more preferable to me to take a few extra minutes to make sure I don't have to worry now than look like an arse if I don't do it properly and it falls on the road and I have to pick it up or damages someone's vehicle and I have to pay for it.

Same as models. When they take the time to do all they can to avoid problems and they happen, I'll be the first one to offer to go kneecap anyone within traveling distance for them.
When they basically invite the predators through being lazy and ignorant, well sorry but my pity factor for you is about zero.

If people don't put in the effort to prevent themselves being victims, then in my book they shouldn't be so quick to complain when the slimebags that are relying exactly on their complacency achieve their sick goals. 

If you want to take pictures of people, be willing to deal with people and their emotions. If not, go take pictures of your cat.

I am more than willing to deal with them and do so a lot more expediently than the GWC's that will put up with any and all crap to get a girl in front of their camera.
Those that don't like it are free to work with people whom are prepared to put up with a lot more crap than I am.

But you are right, I do need to take more pics of my cats. I was only thinking the other day I don't have very many and I should do a lot more.

Undoubtedly there would be infinitely less rot to deal with shooting cats and I could make more money out of it than shooting models as well! :0)

Julian  W I L D E wrote:
I think if we're going to be concerned about violence towards our models... we  all need to STOP portraying violence in our images.  It only feeds an appetite that ultimately is self-destructive.   -JULIAN

I played with toy guns as a kid, I haven't ever shot anyone.

I've seen a thousand movies filled with death, explosions and general mayhem, but you know what? I'm an adult and know its fantasy.

glumpy wrote:
I still approach people directly and it still yields hugely better results than web sites. Obviously young people even prefer the old fashioned values and methods and it instills more confidence in them that just going through a web site.

You and I have had similar experiences when it comes to our recollection of "the good old days!"  When first starting out, I used to carry my portfolio (a book of 8 x 10's) on the bus when traveling to work or school and show it to prospective models that I would like to shoot.  Carrying business cards is something I still do, and I'd get some weddings that way too!  As a result of meeting at shopping malls, 7-11's, and restaurants, I have made connections for shoots.  You never know!

This thread does seem to be spinning in circles;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a6_ePsLsM8

Patrick Walberg wrote:
This thread does seem to be spinning in circles;

As does every thread on this or a related topic.

Danielle Reid wrote:
You don't know that. I've seen many nerdy looking tiny men that could kick ass like a MMA fighter. Besides guns and knifes don't see body size.

So how do you know I don't have guns or knives? Or OC? Or a pit pull? Or all four?  People will walk in the street when they see me coming down the sidewalk with my dog.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
This thread does seem to be spinning in circles

Z.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
A mere accidental brushing of a body part isn't a form of violence.  But a person who is using their power over another to force an unwanted touching is actually a violent (and criminal act).

Z.

Julian  W I L D E wrote:
I think if we're going to be concerned about violence towards our models... we  all need to STOP portraying violence in our images.  It only feeds an appetite that ultimately is self-destructive.   -JULIAN

Interesting point. Now, since so much of the portrayals of violence are descriptions in news stories or first person accounts, how would you suggest dealing with those? For instance, that long list of links. Do you think stories of this nature "feeds the appetite" for violence, or is it only images with fictional violence that have this regrettable effect?

Emma Anne wrote:
The life of the model is not the only thing she may be worried about. What if she's propositioned for sex? Asked to do things she's not comfortable with? Maybe it's a confidence thing?

Then say no, people get propositioned all the time and say no in all walks of life.

Emma Anne wrote:
Many photographers seem to take models' feelings and emotions for granted. Models expose their bodies, hearts and souls on display for photographers who think the model is just another warm body. Photographers need to realize that they are working with a HUMAN BEING. Not a plant, a car, a building.

People disregard others feelings all the time, its a two way street models disregard photographers feelings too. Again that happens in all walks of life.

Emma Anne wrote:
If you want to take pictures of people, be willing to deal with people and their emotions. If not, go take pictures of your cat.

I'm a photographer not a counselor, check your emotions at the door and be professional.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
It was an informational post correcting your (and some others) incorrect assertion that violence is only a physical manifestation of force.

I looked up it's definition

1. Behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
2.  Strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
A simple point that violence isn't just a physical manifestation.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
No one doubts that is the truth.

Well, actually, it seems some people on the thread do.
which is why I posted a correction.

Revenge Photography wrote:
I looked up it's definition (violence)

1. Behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
2.  Strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.