glumpy wrote:

Your definition of violence is more than wanting, it's also steeped in ignorance.

The Shoeplay Warehouse wrote:
I'd like to ask a question, because it actually has bothered me on numerous occasions. Many of my shoots involve the act of tickling a person, and I state it on my profile, and I stated it in my explanation of my work to those interested models who decided to participate.

However at the shoot, the model seems to conveniently forget this detail of the work, and so starts acting as if she did not know what I was doing, and claiming it to be inappropriate.

Or, they'll take the money and then leave and spread all kinds of things about me. I've had a lot of it come back to me as well.

Or they'll ignore me.

What disturbs me is this question, "Is this common for most people? That they will go and do this kind of thing to most male photographers and get the money and leave, and slander people or other things?" or, "Did they truly forget what I described to them, multiple times, and which they also had time to go over in e-mail prior to the shoot?" At first I thought the latter, but now because it happened to me so often, I think it was the former.

Maybe they thought I wouldn't tickle them? I mean...wow....

I must be a surprise.

Yes, it is common.  It is often forgotten in these threads, that violence or inappropriate conduct by a photographer is always inexcusable.  That having been said, we often forget to talk about situations like you have stated.  Just because a model says there was inappropriate conduct doesn't mean that there has been inappropriate conduct.

Of course, you have also selected a genre that can easily result in misunderstandings.  I know bondage photographers who touch models all the time to work with ropes without incident.  Others will "creep" the models out.  There is an inherent risk of issues coming up when you do things that involve contact.

And that is the problem.  We all want to stamp out the "skeevy" behavior.  So much of this is "he said - she said" and it isn't always true that what she said is what happened.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Really????


Provide some more examples please?

I could step off the curb crossing a traffic light and get violently ran over by a car.  I'm more likely to get murdered by an angry ex-girlfriend than be kidnapped by models again.  So out of easily millions of photo shoots that have happened over the past 10 years, perhaps only one percent have had an occurrence of violence against women?

Any figures at all to back up your premise?  International crime statistics perhaps?

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
Though I am anti-escort, the fact that the oft repeated scenario of a male touching a female without her permission and the situation is downplayed in these forums as not a form of violence bothers me.

The Shoeplay Warehouse wrote:
I'd like to ask a question, because it actually has bothered me on numerous occasions. Many of my shoots involve the act of tickling a person, and I state it on my profile, and I stated it in my explanation of my work to those interested models who decided to participate.

However at the shoot, the model seems to conveniently forget this detail of the work, and so starts acting as if she did not know what I was doing, and claiming it to be inappropriate.

Or, they'll take the money and then leave and spread all kinds of things about me. I've had a lot of it come back to me as well.

Or they'll ignore me.

What disturbs me is this question, "Is this common for most people? That they will go and do this kind of thing to most male photographers and get the money and leave, and slander people or other things?" or, "Did they truly forget what I described to them, multiple times, and which they also had time to go over in e-mail prior to the shoot?" At first I thought the latter, but now because it happened to me so often, I think it was the former.

Maybe they thought I wouldn't tickle them? I mean...wow....

I must be a surprise.

if you are having numerous cases where models are alleging inappropriate contact from you, maybe for starters you might want to take up a form of photography that doesn't involve tickling and touching models?

This just as a common sense suggestion.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
you (and others)  are forgetting the power dynamic that is at play in a number of  MM shoots which is an older (and in most cases larger and physically stronger) adult male is shooting a young female who is in various stages of undress.

Also the power of 'I have control of your payment'.

There is a guy in the UK, i believe, who gets girls to travel for shoots then refuses to pay them unless they do something or other.

Even smart girls seem to have occasionally put up with something because they had invested so much and it was such a little thing. And sometimes the little thing escalates.

(Applies to TFP too)

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
if you are having numerous cases where models are alleging inappropriate contact from you, maybe for starters you might want to take up a form of photography that doesn't involve tickling and touching models?

This just as a common sense suggestion.

Actually, the level of incidence does not bother me. I am bothered by the possibility that these individuals are doing this purposely or that they simply misunderstood.

Do I detect a hint of derision as well? Very nice way to season the response if so.

The Shoeplay Warehouse wrote:
I'd like to ask a question, because it actually has bothered me on numerous occasions. Many of my shoots involve the act of tickling a person, and I state it on my profile, and I stated it in my explanation of my work to those interested models who decided to participate.

However at the shoot, the model seems to conveniently forget this detail of the work, and so starts acting as if she did not know what I was doing, and claiming it to be inappropriate...

Or, they'll take the money and then leave and spread all kinds of things about me. I've had a lot of it come back to me as well.

Or they'll ignore me.

...Maybe they thought I wouldn't tickle them? I mean...wow....

I must be a surprise.

Since many models fail to read or comprehend a profile's minutiae , you must be quite a surprise, indeed...



Z.

zaxpix wrote:

Since many models fail to read or comprehend a profile's minutiae , you must be quite a surprise, indeed...



Z.

I am dying over here. You have shot me in the gut and I'm dying right now. That picture is hilarious.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
if you are having numerous cases where models are alleging inappropriate contact from you, maybe for starters you might want to take up a form of photography that doesn't involve tickling and touching models?

This just as a common sense suggestion.

The Shoeplay Warehouse wrote:
Actually, the level of incidence does not bother me. I am bothered by the possibility that these individuals are doing this purposely or that they simply misunderstood.

Do I detect a hint of derision as well? Very nice way to season the response if so.

It seems to me that if a high percentage of women that you work with have not-so-good things to say about you after the fact, that there might be a problem on your end.

You can either try and figure it out and fix it before you have unwanted legal issues or you could switch to a photographic format where you don't touch models.

No derision, just common sense.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
A mere accidental brushing of a body part isn't a form of violence.  But a person who is using their power over another to force an unwanted touching is actually a violent (and criminal act).

Ok, if that semantic pleases your agenda and sounds sufficiently dramatic, I don't have the inclination to argue over a frivolous point.
If this " Violence" bothers you, please continue to be outraged or whatever emotional state you think people should feel.

I had a client many years ago That I told I was going to adjust the collar on her shirt if that was OK.  She put my hand on her boob and said I could touch whatever I wanted. I had absolutely no interest in this person and professionally declined the offer.
I guess she was being violent towards me and I never even knew it till now.

I'll have to sit down and try and get myself upset about that now I suppose.

The Shoeplay Warehouse wrote:
Many of my shoots involve the act of tickling a person, and I state it on my profile, and I stated it in my explanation of my work to those interested models who decided to participate.

However at the shoot, the model seems to conveniently forget this detail of the work, and so starts acting as if she did not know what I was doing, and claiming it to be inappropriate.

Or, they'll take the money and then leave and spread all kinds of things about me. I've had a lot of it come back to me as well.


Maybe they thought I wouldn't tickle them? I mean...wow....

I recently put up a casting call  and mentioned twice that I do figure and nude work and stated plainly and specifically 4 times that I wanted to do some topless shots in the shoot and only models comfortable with that need apply.

I have an application from a girl that seems half a chance, enthusiastic, seems creative and we talk about styles and themes of shots I want to do which she says she is excited about.

On the day she turns up with not just one but 2 wannabe henchmen. I tell her I don't allow escorts and a discussion develops and she says neither is her BF, they are just friends. I ask if she is going to be comfortable doing topless shots in front of them and then get the shock horror reaction that she didn't know that's what the shoot was " about" and I had made no mention of it.

I ask if she actually read the casting or just clicked on all of them?
I go to the laptop, Pull up the casting still on the site and ask her to read it and tell me how many times it categorically state that topless shots are a requirement.

They all read and then she states she didn't see that. I ask if stating something 4 times isn't enough, how many times did she think I should mention it?
One of the handbags decides to get assertive and says she won't be doing topless shots so it's that or nothing. I say OK,  see ya later.
Then they get all pissy because I have wasted their time!
Stuff me!

This isn't the first time this has happened, it's about the 4th  in the last 18 months.
Another reason why web sites are such an inefficient way to recruit models.

I don't know if they really are that stupid and illiterate or they like the sound of the concept and want to do it even though they are aware they don't fit the stated criteria.
I make a point now of making sure I state ( again) in the preshoot arrangement discussions that I require topless shots and to please verify they are comfortable with that.
 
You just can't take anything logical and obvious as a given.
I would have thought it would go without saying that someone knew there was topless shots involved in a shoot when it's written FOUR times in the casting but I obviously give many of these people too much credit in the intelligence department.

It may help if you do the same as I do and get a written confirmation that they know you are going to tickle them during the shoot and are OK with that.
Hard for them to whine when you have their confirmation on something before you shoot but I'm not so stupid as to think they wouldn't anyway.
I know better than that.


When you say these girls are taking the money and leaving, you don't mean before you actually photograph them do you?
if that's the case, don't offer payment till the shoots is done.

glumpy wrote:
And lots more Convictions against Priests and Doctors.

Maybe girls should take an escort for their safety when they go to see these people as they have a far worse track record than photographers do.

I couldn't agree more. The only violence I've heard of has been in these forums about the 'possibility' of violence. I know there are bad people in every walk of life, but there are good ones too and all it should take is a few strokes of the keyboard to determine the difference.

glumpy wrote:
And lots more Convictions against Priests and Doctors.

Maybe girls should take an escort for their safety when they go to see these people as they have a far worse track record than photographers do.

I've never been to a doctor who banned patients from bringing people with them. That seems to be pretty standard practice.

Haven't got a clue about priests.

JadeDRed wrote:

I've never been to a doctor who banned patients from bringing people with them. That seems to be pretty standard practice.

Haven't got a clue about priests.

I have never heard of ANYONE taking someone with them to a Doctor "For their safety".

I'm pretty sure if anyone thought they needed to take someone with them for safety reasons, They wouldn't go to that doctor in the first place which is my exact philosophy with models and escorts.

If you think you need to take someone with you to a photographer for your safety, you're an idiot for even going near them in the first place.

L Bass wrote:
I know there are bad people in every walk of life, but there are good ones too and all it should take is a few strokes of the keyboard to determine the difference.

Exactly!

Yet I can count on one hand the number of people in the last 5 years that have asked me for references and NONE of them were the people that thought they needed a butt wiper to come with them.

Dekilah wrote:
I have heard that too. If it is the same guy I have heard of, he also has a lot of really good references from a lot of local llamas I know. I have met him multiple times and he seems like a nice guy. I think in his case some of the llamas might either be a little new to real bondage or they might be like me and just not enjoy the more strenuous styles.

I have also heard both bad and good reports.  I worked with the llama who gave the bad reference the day after her shoot with him.

BeautybyGod wrote:
for the record. i don't like escorts... so let's not go there.

LOL.

So why did you bring it up?

---

Regarding the topic of this thread, with so many violent predators amongst us, why on earth would ANYONE want to be a photographer or a model?

A month ago, someone attempted to cut the locks off my garage with a bolt cutter. After reading this fear-mongering thread, I think there must be a high probability that this would-be criminal is also masquerading as a model or a photographer.

Lock your doors. Tape your windows. Don't go outside.
You'll be sorry.

JadeDRed wrote:

I've never been to a doctor who banned patients from bringing people with them. That seems to be pretty standard practice.

Haven't got a clue about priests.

re:Doctors - your statement would be true for the clients of doctors, not so for the nurses, medical assistants, receptionists, etc., who work with and for the doctors. Any of those people would be very quickly without a job if they started any silliness about bringing their bf, boyfriend, mum, manager or companion to work with them for their safety.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
A mere accidental brushing of a body part isn't a form of violence.  But a person who is using their power over another to force an unwanted touching is actually a violent (and criminal act).

glumpy wrote:
Ok, if that semantic pleases your agenda and sounds sufficiently dramatic, I don't have the inclination to argue over a frivolous point.
If this " Violence" bothers you, please continue to be outraged or whatever emotional state you think people should feel.

It was an informational post correcting your (and some others) incorrect assertion that violence is only a physical manifestation of force.

glumpy wrote:
I had a client many years ago That I told I was going to adjust the collar on her shirt if that was OK.  She put my hand on her boob and said I could touch whatever I wanted. I had absolutely no interest in this person and professionally declined the offer.
I guess she was being violent towards me and I never even knew it till now.

Maybe the problem is that you misunderstand the whole concept of violence and power over other people.

glumpy wrote:
I'll have to sit down and try and get myself upset about that now I suppose.

If that makes you happy, why not.

Otherwise, you might want to read up on forms of violence so that you don't sound so ill-informed the next thread you want to participate on.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
You can either try and figure it out and fix it before you have unwanted legal issues or you could switch to a photographic format where you don't touch models.

No derision, just common sense.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
A mere accidental brushing of a body part isn't a form of violence.  But a person who is using their power over another to force an unwanted touching is actually a violent (and criminal act).

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
It was an informational post correcting your (and some others) incorrect assertion that violence is only a physical manifestation of force.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
Maybe the problem is that you misunderstand the whole concept of violence and power over other people.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
If that makes you happy, why not.

Otherwise, you might want to read up on forms of violence so that you don't sound so ill-informed the next thread you want to participate on.

You make some valid points, Ms. Patchouli.

There are also alpha female wannabees (in the Urban Dictionary sense of the expression) around here who do the same thing by manipulating, targeting and harassing men or other women for their ulterior reasons.

This door swings both ways.

Predators, charlatans and opportunists come in all genders.

glumpy wrote:
And lots more Convictions against Priests and Doctors.
Maybe girls should take an escort for their safety when they go to see these people as they have a far worse track record than photographers do.

L Bass wrote:
I couldn't agree more. The only violence I've heard of has been in these forums about the 'possibility' of violence. I know there are bad people in every walk of life, but there are good ones too and all it should take is a few strokes of the keyboard to determine the difference.

did you guys even read this whole thread?
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … st18334836

Please feel to post more links for priests and doctors.

or for that matter, models in car accidents on their way to shoots. lol

put up... or shut up, as they say.


Two men are accused of luring aspiring models and actresses to South Florida with promises of stardom, then drugging, sexually assaulting and filming them to fuel a pornography business
http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI54782/
http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/08/17/2 … gging.html

"About 50 women reported similar crimes by Flanders and Callum, prosecutors told the judge"
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/ … 6108.story
http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/pulp/ … s_rape.php


Orange resident gets prison time for luring girls online
Riverside County court convicted him of 79 felonies
Authorities believe that there were at least 80 victims, with photos from girls from at least 16 states and two countries collected from his computer after his arrest.
http://www.ocregister.com/news/girls-34 … rison.html
http://temecula.patch.com/articles/alle … ster-girls


http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/ … d=32210982
The 28-year-old killer lured her to his flat by telling her he was looking for girls to model jewellery.


"Photographer to the stars jailed for sex assaults"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/photogra … 69509.html


"The man, she said, was holding what appeared to be a professional quality camera, and he told her that he was taking photographs of her to post on the Internet. "
http://www.florida-criminal-attorney-bl … rings.html


convicted of sexually assaulting 9 aspiring actresses
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-06-10/ … rison-term


Richard Dow - pleaded guilty late Tuesday afternoon to sexually assaulting 11 women and assaulting one woman. Prosecutors stayed an additional 14 charges.
http://m.torontosun.com/2012/05/08/ex-c … nst-models
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/08/ex … nst-models
Richard Dow - A former Winnipeg police officer is headed to jail for sexually assaulting 11 young women whom he persuaded to model for his off-duty photography business.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breaki … 29906.html


3 assault convictions and a murder
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jul/27 … me-model27
http://news.findlaw.com/court_tv/s/2006 … 74722.html


Ryan Chamberlain - she was sexually assaulted by a photographer as she worked as a model at a studio in the King and Bathurst streets area. 
http://www.680news.com/2012/06/11/toron … stigation/
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/11/ph … -complaint


A photographer in Pennsylvania pleaded guilty to third-degree murder on Monday in the stabbing death of a Canadian porn actress.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2005 … 50228.html


Karim Remtulla - It's alleged that a man, who portrayed himself as an amateur photographer on a modeling website, lured a girl for photo sessions before plying her with drugs and alcohol and sexually assaulting her.
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/modules. … e&sid=2229


Douglas Shimizu - A photographer has been arrested after allegedly sexually assaulting a model after a studio photo shoot.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/27 … -on-model/
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2012/ … tudio.html


Troy man arraigned, charged with sexual conduct with runaway teen, 17
http://www.freep.com/article/20130315/N … ay-teen-17


Rademaker ... lured Pandelios into the Angeles National Forest for a photo shoot, then killed her when she resisted his sexual advances
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/31 … me-model31
http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/s … urder.html


Bradford
http://lacountymurders.com/wanted/LADIES1.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-10 … 2385.story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Richard_Bradford


Alcala, a photographer with an IQ of more than 160, murdered Robin Samsoe, 12 .... as well as four women
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Alcala
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne … Bundy.html
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/seri … ala/1.html

(Alcala) aspiring actress and singer who disappeared from Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 1977 after she went to pose for a freelance photographer
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-291041--.html
Alcala 2012
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-06-20/just … PM:JUSTICE


Rathbun
http://articles.latimes.com/1996-12-17/ … inda-sobek


photographer who raped and indecently assaulted his model clients has been jailed for seven years
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3004320.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl … 020861.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ … odels.html


Dean Kelly
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=803316
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/201 … del_a.html
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/201 … faces.html


"A professional photographer was today starting a 12-month prison sentence for sexually assaulting a teenage model"
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/PERVERT%2 … 0136331946


Fork: "A local photographer has been arrested, accused of drugging, then attacking a 16-year-old aspiring model."
http://www.wthr.com/story/19527718/phot … els-safety
http://www.wthr.com/story/19518062/gree … ploitation
http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/crime/po … tatus=true


"he would help them find jobs as models and took nude photographs and videos of the girls in his home under the guise of creating modeling portfolios before sexually assaulting them"
http://www.sunjournal.com/news/city/201 … ua/1119399



"It's alright. This is how models are made."
http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/crime/prom … ping-model
http://www.koat.com/news/29417196/detail.html


"PERVERTED photographer Mark Neville has been jailed for three years after he sexually assaulted a 17-year-old girl who posed for pictures."
http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/Pe … story.html


"posed as a photographer for a modeling agency to entice teen-age girls into posing in lingerie or in the nude and then sexually assaulted them"
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-02-22/ … al-assault


Woman raped after answering Facebook modeling agency ruse
http://www.eagletribune.com/latestnews/ … gency-ruse


man accused of secretly videotaping models changing clothes at a swimsuit fashion show
Robert Liguori, 51, pleaded guilty in suffolk County Criminal Court to eight counts of unlawful surveillance in the second degree
https://sites.google.com/site/therealleonardoliguori/


An Arizona man is in custody for allegedly luring at least three teenage girls to his home and encouraging them to engage in sexually explicit acts while being photographed"
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/18/po … latestnews


AU - Man accused of sexually assaulting aspiring model
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 … -news.html
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/201 … ring-model


"Victims told jurors that they came to Kaye seeking acting or modeling jobs."
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-06-10/ … rison-term


professional photographer is accused of sexually assaulting a model.
http://www.kpua.net/news.php?id=23913
http://www.khon2.com/mostpopular/story/ … Jwn5Q.cspx


"Lee Cropper first assaulted a model during a photoshoot in September last year, dropping his trousers and admitting “I'm a pervert” before forcing the woman to sexually pleasure him. "
http://www.haringeyindependent.co.uk/ne … on_models/
http://www.haringeyindependent.co.uk/ne … ourt_told/


"Local Photographer Facing 39 Charges"
http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/Poli … 73128.html
40 charges filed against local photographer accused of molesting girl
http://www.gazette.com/articles/godec-1 … z1o520n5r8
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/1 … 45768.html


"Phony photographer arrested in incident with teenage girl, police say"
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 … -girl.html


'Photographer' who drugged and raped girls is jailed for life
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne … ip-brindle
http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Photogr … story.html


"Local photographer returned from Hawaii to face sex charges"
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/ … er_is.html


Judd Weiss
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2012 … m.php#more


Fake photo shoot teenager jailed for sexual assault
http://www.click-manchester.com/news/lo … sault.html


ETX photographer arrested on 24 counts of child exploitation
http://www.ketknbc.com/news/crimewatch/ … f-child-ex


quite a few models vitimized
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 893&page=1

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
You can either try and figure it out and fix it before you have unwanted legal issues or you could switch to a photographic format where you don't touch models.

No derision, just common sense.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
A mere accidental brushing of a body part isn't a form of violence.  But a person who is using their power over another to force an unwanted touching is actually a violent (and criminal act).

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
It was an informational post correcting your (and some others) incorrect assertion that violence is only a physical manifestation of force.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
Maybe the problem is that you misunderstand the whole concept of violence and power over other people.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
If that makes you happy, why not.

Otherwise, you might want to read up on forms of violence so that you don't sound so ill-informed the next thread you want to participate on.

Click Hamilton wrote:
You make some valid points, Ms. Patchouli.

There are also alpha female wannabees (in the Urban Dictionary sense of the expression) around here who do the same thing by manipulating, targeting and harassing men or other women for their ulterior reasons.

This door swings both ways.

Predators, charlatans and opportunists come in all genders.

I have to admit I don't understand what female wannabees are, even in the Urban Dictionary sense.   Are you referring to transgendered people?

But if you feel there is an epidemic of females in male bodies who  are  harassing male and female models on MM shoots, you really might want to consider starting a thread discussing this threat.

Or CAM it.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
I have to admit I don't understand what female wannabees are

That's OK.

That's not what I said anyway.

Alpha-female is the noun. Wannabee is the modifier.

But of course you already knew that.

L Bass wrote:
WOW... after looking over that HUGE list of links about models getting abused... it makes me wonder... did any of those victims check references? Just curious.

although some here would insist most of them did not check references, there is no real way to tell.

most of the victims seem to be newbies that probably had little or no knowledge of the potential pitfalls... nor any real knowledge of ways to weed out the bad guys.

not any different from the hundreds of 'is this a scam?' posts on here.

L Bass wrote:
WOW... after looking over that HUGE list of links about models getting abused... it makes me wonder... did any of those victims check references? Just curious.

It makes me wonder why people are stuck on talking about the past, and not about finding future solutions?  How about improving communication.

The problem of sexual assault and violence against women will never be resolved by always looking back over ones shoulder.  Let's look forward to reducing it as much as possible.  Communication is the answer!  Use due diligence in communication and the chances of making a bad choice will be reduced.

BeautybyGod wrote:
did you guys even read this whole thread?

More to the point, did you?

No one is saying photographers or people posing as them haven't committed crimes.
I have no idea what you are attempting to prove with your long drawn out list of links.
No one denying things happen, but even with your long list, what does happen in in no way commensurate with the fear mongering mantra that people crap on about.

If  you were really scared of some one or thought they may commit a Violent crime against you See, you can spin the dramatic words both ways) would you work with them even if you could take a friend?
No, you wouldn't and if you did, you'd be a complete moron.

If a model feels so frightened and worried about a shooter, then anyone with common sense would not work with them regardless if they had a friend or on.

Funny how now one is ( or ever has) argued with my position of if you are scared I'll comit a crime against you , stay the hell away but they are still trying to justify the legitimacy of having a hand hlder/ butwiper with them on shoots.

If models really think they are in so much danger of a Violent crime against them, why are they even modeling in the first place?

Couldn't be they are just talking crap so as to give some justification to controling BF's who they know they ought to get rid of but don't have the guts to could it?

No, i'm sure that's not much to do with it.

Click Hamilton wrote:
LOL.

So why did you bring it up?

i didn't want anybody to think i was a pro-escort guy going off on a rant, that's exactly why.

Click Hamilton wrote:
There are also alpha female wannabees (in the Urban Dictionary sense of the expression) around here who do the same thing by manipulating, targeting and harassing men or other women for their ulterior reasons.

This door swings both ways.

Predators, charlatans and opportunists come in all genders.

HAHAHAHA!

Classic!

Of course there are those that get upset when everyone else doesn't get upset over something as they think they ought to be so they have something to preach to the choir about.

glumpy wrote:
More to the point, did you?

No one is saying photographers or people posing as them haven't committed crimes.
I have no idea what you are attempting to prove with your long drawn out list of links.
No one denying things happen, but even with your long list, what does happen in in no way commensurate with the fear mongering mantra that people crap on about.

yeah, i read the whole thread. i tried to stay on subject with my posts.... and stick to facts i know about.

i could have responded to more claims i'm pretty sure people can't back up, but i was busy yesterday.

what you did say...

glumpy wrote:
And lots more Convictions against Priests and Doctors.
Maybe girls should take an escort for their safety when they go to see these people as they have a far worse track record than photographers do.

i made my case. you either have evidence to support your claim... or you don't.

i'm guessing you don't.

glumpy wrote:
Funny how now one is ( or ever has) argued with my position of if you are scared I'll comit a crime against you , stay the hell away but they are still trying to justify the legitimacy of having a hand hlder/ butwiper with them on shoots.

now maybe Click can see why i put that 'i don't like escorts' statement in my post. lol

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
I have to admit I don't understand what female wannabees are

Click Hamilton wrote:
That's OK.

That's not what I said anyway.

Alpha-female is the noun. Wannabee is the modifier.

But of course you already knew that.

did you notice your post had nothing to do models experiencing violence at a photoshoot?


maybe try and stay on point?

DarrylPascoePhotography wrote:
As someone else stated, one time is too many and frankly its disappointing and quite disgusting to see people arguing over the amount of time they have "heard of" or "read" or "witnessed" some form of abuse or sexual assault being reported on a shoot making it seem like it never happens because they are not aware of it much as if that makes a difference.

And to answer the OP's question...yes I do know of violence and abuse happening on shoots unfortunately both to models and photographers.

So what is your answer?
As you point out, we are humans first and what ever else 2nd.

Please point out with detail and precision, exactly where anyone here has said it never happens.

The only people that are proposing the perfect world scenario are the ones with the " One time is too many" BS.
Apply that to life  and no one will ever be born because one still birth is one time too many so better give up on life before it starts.

While the shooters are copping all the flack here from the feminist supporters, How about the models pull their fingers out of their arses and do some checking on who they are working with instead of crying poor me afterwards.

The miniscule amount f people I have had check me out before hand is real testimony as to how few take this basic and straightforward safeguard.
And please , no on give me the " But they were only new so didn't understand or know better " crap.

There is endless discussions like this on the net as well as all modeling sites having cautions and head's up to be aware of. The fact is 99% of models are too lazy to put any effort into anything they do, Much easier to garner sympath after the event.