Forums > Model Colloquy > Reciprocity, reply times & communication skills

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

All of this might well be filed under "don't sweat the small stuff" but it's irking me a bit regardless, so here goes.

I am finding that communication, reply times, and reciprocity on the part of many models is lacking, especially in MM emails and Facebook (which should be no big surprise!).

There are several models I have worked with whose self-promotion posts on FB I make a point of "liking" to support them. None of them have "liked" my posts announcing my own work, including their published sets, on Flickr.  (It feels petty to even type this, but I'll own up to caring somewhat.)

I realize complaining about this is petty, and I'm telling myself not to care about this shit. A first-world problem, to be sure. And FB is after all inherently narcissistic and most models and photographers are mainly concerned with promoting themselves (to the point that I now hide most of their posts...some of them go overboard IMO in posting the minutia of their life)

But more reciprocity would be nice. I don't think the models are unhappy with my work, since I notice they are posting it in their ports and sometimes using it for avatar pics.

Then there's reply times and the whole "read but not replied to email" here on MM. I don't mean someone not replying to an initial unsolicited email about working together. I definitely get and respect the "no reply is its own response (i.e, a "no")" idea. Rather, models who have either contacted me, who I've already worked with, or who have replied and are interested, but who don't follow up, either to confirm dates or provide references (I ask for them if they don't have a credits list)

I recently sent a get-well card to a model who was hospitalized, but haven't heard back. I would hope that anyone who has worked with me would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there's no ulterior motive (i.e. trying to get down their pants) behind such things. That same day I sent a congratulations card to a former co-worker who is pregnant. Stuff like this is just what nice people do, or should do IMO.

I realize these are not serious issues, but I'm finding myself less tolerant or patient with these kinds of reciprocity fails.

Am I expecting too much by expecting such communication in return? I don't think I am, personally, but I'm limited to my own POV and experience.

The main problem here is that I might be caring too much and assuming such reciprocity as a baseline for professionalism (and manners)...a state of engaged disinterest is probably a good mode to be in.

Sep 10 13 04:00 pm Link

Photographer

Carlos Occidental

Posts: 10546

Glendora, California, US

huremics wrote:
"don't sweat the small stuff"

This.

Sep 10 13 04:11 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

LOL. Why did you even bother?  :-)

But seriously, I realize that from an intellectual perspective, but from a feelings/emotional perspective, reciprocity in terms of communication DOES matter to me, as well it should perhaps.

Sep 10 13 04:11 pm Link

Photographer

Carlos Occidental

Posts: 10546

Glendora, California, US

Professional models will give you the reciprocity you so desire.  Unprofessional models will not.  With your current method, you'll find out quickly who's trying to be professional and who isn't.  There's nothing else you can do.  So, don't sweat the small stuff.

Sep 10 13 04:17 pm Link

Photographer

BeachBoudoir

Posts: 754

Robertsdale, Alabama, US

Life is much simpler if you choose to work with those that you find common ground with and think as you do. The others that do not reply, or are less than communicative I just move on and consider it probably wouldn't be fun anyway.

When do I feel like I have been blown off? I don't really feel that way because I just move on to the next one.

I've developed friendships with some of the models I have photographed and some I never hear from again. Others I will send a request to shoot and not hear back. Then a few months they ring me up for a shoot.

I know it's frustrating but you are not going to change anyone's behavior.

Sep 10 13 04:18 pm Link

Photographer

BeachBoudoir

Posts: 754

Robertsdale, Alabama, US

huremics wrote:
LOL. Why did you even bother?  :-)

But seriously, I realize that from an intellectual perspective, but from a feelings/emotional perspective, reciprocity in terms of communication DOES matter to me, as well it should perhaps.

I'm going to go on a limb and say maybe the models pick up on this and it puts them off. Feelings and emotions should not come into play.

Sep 10 13 04:19 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

@Carlos: That's a fair point. I guess it's a weeding out process to find the models who are professional (reliable, on top of their game, able to communicate properly, etc.) and ditch the others.

Sep 10 13 04:19 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

JonPhoto wrote:
I'm going to go on a limb and say maybe the models pick up on this and it puts them off. Feelings and emotions should not come into play.

That's a really good point. Thanks for making it. Going to remember that and try to integrate that POV from here on out.

It's worth noting that I feel this way about interactions with people in every aspect of life, not just working with models. Reciprocity is one of the yardsticks whereby I measure a person's character. Maybe a less invested, more removed approach is appropriate in the photography scenario.

Sep 10 13 04:20 pm Link

Model

CRIMSON REIGN

Posts: 813

Baltimore, Maryland, US

Wow! And here I am thinking that I look desperate because I do (or try to) respond in less than 24 hours to every email, FB, MM, and OMP whether it's a soliciting work or just paying me a compliment. I guess some models are too busy modeling to get to their messages in a timely fashion.

Sep 10 13 04:22 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

CRIMSON REIGN wrote:
I guess some models are too busy modeling to get to their messages in a timely fashion.

This reads more like rhetoric than reality.

Sep 10 13 04:26 pm Link

Photographer

Carle Photography

Posts: 9227

Oakland, California, US

Carlos Occidental wrote:
Professional models will give you the reciprocity you so desire.  Unprofessional models will not.  With your current method, you'll find out quickly who's trying to be professional and who isn't.  There's nothing else you can do.  So, don't sweat the small stuff.

Carlos is correct, he and I have worked togeather because BOTH of us are able to communicate in a timely manner and we each understand that if you want the job you have to do the leg work. Leg work these days means answering emails and in the 24/7 world we live in, you need to answer them fast.

Some models/photographers know this. They get the jobs.
Some models/photographers don't know this. They do NOT get the jobs.

Then you hit the point of saturation, you start to filter emails and messages because you have so many that you only reply to the current jobs or the best offers.

So in short:
People don't reply because they don't care in general, or they specifically don't care about YOUR project.

When I do cold calls, to models, I send out 3-5 messages, then I book who replies.
I don't even bother with checking up on anyone who does NOT reply.
I don't like to sweat.. smile

Today alone by 4:30pm
15 Emails
2 Phone calls
1 Txt

Some these are about jobs with money on the table.
Some are about trade work.
Some are spam. (Vanity press invites)
Some are bacon. (Gallery invites, lists I am subscribed too.)
Some are about future meetings.
One business is offering me samples of their product.

I start with the biggest/most current jobs first.
Then move on to the jobs that are further out.
Then to the meetings with current connections, then to the meetings with new people, then the trade offers, then the sample guy...

I have been unsubbing more and more to art events that are Vanity press and shows that are far away.

I delete the spam.

(A very busy and popular model can get over 200 emails a DAY)

Sep 10 13 04:28 pm Link

Photographer

Erlinda

Posts: 7221

London, England, United Kingdom

I am so sad to see another butt hurt photographer on the models forum complaining about models…….

Humans don't reply. It's not just models…….. We all do it… I do it and I do it because I don't want to waste my time replying to someone I don't care for or have any interest in working with…. I have better things to do with my time. This is how most people that don't reply think… Not just photographers, not just models or mua or women… Most human beings just don't care.

I'm sorry to break it to you, it's a sad day I know. sad

Sep 10 13 04:29 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Erlinda wrote:
I am so sad to see another butt hurt photographer on the models forum complaining about models…….

Humans don't reply. It's not just models…….. We all do it… I do it and I do it because I don't want to waste my time replying to someone I don't care for or have any interest in working with…. I have better things to do with my time. This is how most people that don't reply think… Not just photographers, not just models or mua or women… Most human beings just don't care.

I'm sorry to break it to you, it's a sad day I know. sad

Yeah, it's a "butt-hurt" post, I'll own up to that. I knew that when I wrote it, but did so regardless. Thanks though for your sarcasm. The Internet desperately needs more of it.

My post was probably also too long, since I mentioned that I don't have a problem with those I haven't already worked with not replying. I get that and respect it, since it means "not interested.' And nor do I expect replies ASAP.

Glad I gave you an opportunity to put me down, though. Keep up the positive energy.

Sep 10 13 04:33 pm Link

Photographer

Erlinda

Posts: 7221

London, England, United Kingdom

huremics wrote:

Yeah, it's a "butt-hurt" post, I'll own up to that. I knew that when I wrote it, but did so regardless. Thanks though for your sarcasm. The Internet desperately needs more of it.

My post was probably also too long, since I mentioned that I don't have a problem with those I haven't already worked not replying. I get that and respect it, since it means "not interested.'

Glad I gave you an opportunity to put me down, though. Keep up the positive energy.

I'm sorry what? Where did I put you down? I didn't say anything about you, or called you any names or being mean to you. I just feel sorry for the models, all they get is these threads all the time.

Sep 10 13 04:39 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Perhaps I overreacted. I detected a lot of snark in your post.

Sep 10 13 04:52 pm Link

Model

Gianna Virginia

Posts: 178

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US

I think the internet has negatively changed the way people interact with one another. Basic social skills go out the window. And since people don't have to face you, it becomes very easy to blow people off. I still love the internet though. Just wish people could be more cordial. But I do get your frustrations.

Sep 10 13 04:57 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Gianna Virginia wrote:
I think the internet has negatively changed the way people interact with one another. Basic social skills go out the window. And since people don't have to face you, it becomes very easy to blow people off. I still love the internet though. Just wish people could be more cordial. But I do get your frustrations.

Thanks...good to know it's not just a question of being a "butt-hurt photographer"
smile

Sep 10 13 05:00 pm Link

Photographer

Erlinda

Posts: 7221

London, England, United Kingdom

huremics wrote:
Perhaps I overreacted. I detected a lot of snark in your post.

The only snark there might of been the "I'm sorry to break it to you, it's a sad day I know"

^^^^ That wasn't mean to bring you down… Just some sarcasm. smile

But everything else was not mean to be mean or bring you down.

Sep 10 13 05:21 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

OK, cool. My bad, and thanks for clarifying. Perhaps today I'm suffering from the equivalent of male PMS or something. Maybe I need to eat some red meat and go out and fire a few guns.

Sep 10 13 05:26 pm Link

Photographer

Erlinda

Posts: 7221

London, England, United Kingdom

huremics wrote:
OK, cool. My bad, and thanks for clarifying. Perhaps today I'm suffering from the equivalent of male PMS or something. Maybe I need to eat some red meat and go out and fire a few guns.

Jeeeeeeez, don't shoot no one hmm

Sep 10 13 05:28 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Ha, forgot you are from the UK. No, just bottles. I don't actually own a gun, though I have no problems with them, and I do enjoy firing them the few chances I have had. 

It was more like a "what can I do to bring up my testosterone levels" kind of sentiment.

Sep 10 13 05:30 pm Link

Artist/Painter

sdgillis

Posts: 2444

Portland, Oregon, US

CRIMSON REIGN wrote:
Wow! And here I am thinking that I look desperate because I do (or try to) respond in less than 24 hours to every email, FB, MM, and OMP whether it's a soliciting work or just paying me a compliment. I guess some models are too busy modeling to get to their messages in a timely fashion.

You mean you delay getting back to a job when you could have responded right away?  That's silly. The sooner we can verify a booking the better.

Sep 10 13 05:34 pm Link

Model

Danielle Reid

Posts: 4383

Little Rock, Arkansas, US

I sent out 100 emails in the last two days. 0 replies. I'm moving on with my life.

Sep 10 13 05:35 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 951

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

Now here's a forum post I've never seen before!

Sep 10 13 05:35 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Now here's a forum post I've never seen before!

If you have nothing to contribute, why post?

Sep 10 13 05:40 pm Link

Model

Laura UnBound

Posts: 27372

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

You say you do nice things with no ulterior motives....but here you're complaining you don't have nice things done back.

You didnt do a nice thing just to be nice, you did a nice thing hoping for one in return.

Life gets easier when you stop expecting people to play along by your rules of how nice things ought to be done.

Sep 10 13 05:52 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

If by "nice thing" you mean an acknowledgement, then, yeah, sure, I do hope/expect something of the kind. Not unreasonable.

Sep 10 13 05:57 pm Link

Model

CRIMSON REIGN

Posts: 813

Baltimore, Maryland, US

sdgillis wrote:

You mean you delay getting back to a job when you could have responded right away?  That's silly. The sooner we can verify a booking the better.

LOL! No, it all depends on when I get the message and if I can get on MM via my cell at the time. Can't answer a message that I haven't seen yet.

Sep 10 13 07:53 pm Link

Model

CRIMSON REIGN

Posts: 813

Baltimore, Maryland, US

huremics wrote:

This reads more like rhetoric than reality.

Depends on who reads it, it can be both.

Sep 10 13 07:54 pm Link

Photographer

Antediluvian Design

Posts: 1137

Dunmore, Pennsylvania, US

Would I be out of line saying generally models are self centered megalomaniacs who think of nothing but themselves generally. Just sayin. smile

Sep 10 13 08:45 pm Link

Model

Janelle Kane

Posts: 208

Los Angeles, California, US

People don't reply, it happens. Things come up, they get busy, cards don't always get delivered. I would just push your energy to better things, you know? I understand it must be frustrating if you're really wanting to work with them but ranting in a model forum about how you don't get likes on facebook and how you almost sound entitled to get them back for being nice just no. As for your friend in the hospital, is she discharged yet? There might be a lot on her plate at the moment.

Sep 10 13 09:30 pm Link

Photographer

Anthony Yuen

Posts: 139

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

OP, before writing this kind of post, you should always ask yourself:

In the past, have you never done the very thing that you are "ranting" about?

Be honest now, have you never blown someone off and/or not reply/reciprocate, in a timely manner?

Just remember, when you point your finger at someone, three fingers are pointing back at you.

"Let those who are without sin, cast the first stone".

Sep 10 13 09:39 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Anastasie wrote:
People don't reply, it happens. Things come up, they get busy, cards don't always get delivered. I would just push your energy to better things, you know? I understand it must be frustrating if you're really wanting to work with them but ranting in a model forum about how you don't get likes on facebook and how you almost sound entitled to get them back for being nice just no. As for your friend in the hospital, is she discharged yet? There might be a lot on her plate at the moment.

Yeah, you're right re: moving my energy to better things. The only reason I posted is because it's been irking me despite my rationality telling me that this is petty and below my ability to be concerned about, it's been kind of a pattern, enough so that I decided to vent, knowing it is a "butt-hurt" post.

Just to clarify, there's no sentiment to "get them back" here. If you read it that way then I don't think I expressed myself very well. That would be ridiculous. Yep, she's out and back online.

Sep 10 13 09:51 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Anthony Yuen wrote:
OP, before writing this kind of post, you should always ask yourself:

In the past, have you never done the very thing that you are "ranting" about?

Be honest now, have you never blown someone off and/or not reply/reciprocate, in a timely manner?

Just remember, when you point your finger at someone, three fingers are pointing back at you.

"Let those who are without sin, cast the first stone".

Indeed. A good reminder. Though if we all practiced this then the MM forums would have maybe 1/100th of the posts they currently have. It'd be a ghost town, ha ha.

I very very rarely blow anyone off, and if I do it's because it's spam, irrelevant, or someone who is clearly bad news. My communiques with models I've shot with and who plan to shoot again with me don't fall under these categories.

I really do make a habit of practicing reciprocity, and do reply to messages I get on MM or FB, even if it's a polite 'no thanks.'


As it is, even posting here and bitching to a friend or two has been therapeutic. I don't feel as annoyed, though I still maintain the validity of my complaint and of the importance of reciprocity and manners in one's dealing with others.

Sep 10 13 09:57 pm Link

Photographer

Four-Eleven Productions

Posts: 749

Fircrest, Washington, US

People who can't be bothered to reply to a specific business offer basically are just revealing the crappy job their parents did in raising them.

"No answer is an answer" is a silly attempt to rationalize rude-ass behavior.

Sep 11 13 07:47 am Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 2831

London, England, United Kingdom

Gianna Virginia wrote:
I think the internet has negatively changed the way people interact with one another. Basic social skills go out the window. And since people don't have to face you, it becomes very easy to blow people off. I still love the internet though. Just wish people could be more cordial. But I do get your frustrations.

This.

Try not to spend too much energy on those that don't respond and spend it on those that do.

Sep 11 13 08:05 am Link

Photographer

kevin bellanger

Posts: 465

Albany, New York, US

huremics wrote:

Thanks...good to know it's not just a question of being a "butt-hurt photographer"..........I am a butt hurt photog I feel your pain, at this point if a Girl does not reply after 3 weeks (message read) I send another message that's goes something like this...message read no reply typical never mind .this usually gets their attention, and 50% say sorry I have been busy OR I don't check this site much. the other 50% say hey your rude, unprofessional. either way  I know this pretty much guarantees that I will not be working with said girl but at least I get project my butt hurtness and get some degree of satisfaction . 
smile

Sep 11 13 08:40 am Link

Photographer

The F-Stop

Posts: 1510

New York, New York, US

Wait, you'll get the stupid answer "NO REALY IS A REPLY."


hahaha morons!

Sep 11 13 08:43 am Link

Photographer

kevin bellanger

Posts: 465

Albany, New York, US

Four-Eleven Productions wrote:
People who can't be bothered to reply to a specific business offer basically are just revealing the crappy job their parents did in raising them.

"No answer is an answer" is a silly attempt to rationalize rude-ass behavior.

....YEAH

Sep 11 13 08:43 am Link

Photographer

kevin bellanger

Posts: 465

Albany, New York, US

The F-Stop wrote:
Wait, you'll get the stupid answer "NO REALY IS A REPLY."


hahaha morons!

.....YEAH

Sep 11 13 08:44 am Link