What Fun Productions wrote:
Well, I guess we can conclude this was just another exaggerated problem.

Folklore is strong on MM.

I don't that know its exaggerated or folklore, I've seen the PM's local models are getting with my own eyes. I've talk quite openly with many of the models I shoot.

The problem is real but does seem to vary in its severity in different area's.

It's also important to consider that few new models use the forum and of those many are reluctant to post.

What Fun Productions wrote:
Well, I guess we can conclude this was just another exaggerated problem.

Folklore is strong on MM.

Revenge Photography wrote:

I don't that know its exaggerated or folklore, I've seen the PM's local models are getting with my own eyes. I've talk quite openly with many of the models I shoot.

The problem is real but does seem to vary in its severity in different area's.

It's also important to consider that few new models use the forum and of those many are reluctant to post.

Probably a Canadian issue.

Laura UnBound wrote:
Yes, I got a handful of offers I wasn't keen on when I signed up. I decline or ignored them. Now I hardly get anything.

Of course, since you make clear you are not shooting (which I am sad about) that might be expected.

BTHPhoto wrote:
I once messaged a new model who said "yes" to the shoots nudes box in her profile. My message said "Welcome to MM.  Please take a look at my portfolio and let me know if you'd be interested in discussing a shoot."  Her response was "Ew, your [sic] not even a fashion photographer but you shoot nudes? That's just creepy. I don't think so."  Based on that first hand knowledge, my input to the thread is that you have to take all those claims with a grain of salt.  I'm sure some are real, but I'm also sure that some proportion fall in the category of "creepy" for reasons that have nothing to do with inappropriate content or intent.

So would you say that 11 requests to webcam nude and masturbate is appropriate?
How about a dozen asking for a date?
How about
"You are up yourself luv nobody's going to pay you unless you do (adult) levels"


These were in a small minority on MM. But they are par for the course on some UK sites. And certainly I got a few fruity ones here on joining too.


So.Please don't play this down it can be a problem. I think being able to CAM inappropriate requests may now help. But of course if they have your email and FB and phone number it comes through like that.


Ultimately this does more damage to photographers than anyone else because these creeps make us perhaps a little over cautious. So pretending it's not an issue for new models ,who seem the most targeted, is perpetuating the problem.

But sure yes I can see your point too that some models are ridiculous. Equating shooting nudes with being a creep is obviously whacko or immature. And certainly anyone who thinks fashion photographers are by contrast automatically safe is naive. I was myself in thinking that a well published fashion photographer on MM would not do anything to risk his reputation.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/photogra … 69509.html
But on the other hand I've encountered photographers who are sympathetic to that particular creep.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

So would you say that 11 requests to webcam nude and masturbate is appropriate?
How about a dozen asking for a date?
How about
"You are up yourself luv nobody's going to pay you unless you do (adult) levels"


These were in a small minority on MM. But they are par for the course on some UK sites. And certainly I got a few fruity ones here on joining too.


So.Please don't play this down it can be a problem. I think being able to CAM inappropriate requests may now help. But of course if they have your email and FB and phone number it comes through like that.


Ultimately this does more damage to photographers than anyone else because these creeps make us perhaps a little over cautious. So pretending it's not an issue for new models ,who seem the most targeted, is perpetuating the problem.

But sure yes I can see your point too that some models are ridiculous. Equating shooting nudes with being a creep is obviously whacko or immature. And certainly anyone who thinks fashion photographers are by contrast automatically safe is naive. I was myself in thinking that a well published fashion photographer on MM would not do anything to risk his reputation.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/photogra … 69509.html
But on the other hand I've encountered photographers who are sympathetic to that particular creep.

+1

I get a creepy message about once a month. I use the term "creep" loosely, but mostly it is to describe someone who has covert intentions.

My favorite genre of creep (and this happens fairly often) are the ones who fill their portfolio with photos that were clearly taken by like 5 different photographers with about 2 of those being extremely well-taken fashion shots (for credibility, I guess?) and the rest being bad attempts at homemade porn with the date and time of the photo on the lower left corner.

Then they'll send messages like "hey beautiful...like ur look alot...let me no if u want to shoot sum erotica...paid..."

If it's a slow day I might string them along a bit for funsies and see how much bullshit I can get out of them. At least it's entertaining

salvatori. wrote:
And I am simply amazed when photographers on this site tell everyone about 'all the models' that share all their personal experiences with them. I consider myself lucky when a model shows up...

Well said!!!!

salvatori. wrote:
And I am simply amazed when photographers on this site tell everyone about 'all the models' that share all their personal experiences with them. I consider myself lucky when a model shows up...

J Millman Photography wrote:
Well said!!!!

I guess some of us have less trouble getting models to come to shoots.

Jay Farrell wrote:
So, is it wrong that I offer them candy?

Depends

BTHPhoto wrote:
I once messaged a new model who said "yes" to the shoots nudes box in her profile. My message said "Welcome to MM.  Please take a look at my portfolio and let me know if you'd be interested in discussing a shoot."  Her response was "Ew, your [sic] not even a fashion photographer but you shoot nudes? That's just creepy. I don't think so."  Based on that first hand knowledge, my input to the thread is that you have to take all those claims with a grain of salt.  I'm sure some are real, but I'm also sure that some proportion fall in the category of "creepy" for reasons that have nothing to do with inappropriate content or intent.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
So would you say that 11 requests to webcam nude and masturbate is appropriate?
How about a dozen asking for a date?
How about
"You are up yourself luv nobody's going to pay you unless you do (adult) levels"


These were in a small minority on MM. But they are par for the course on some UK sites. And certainly I got a few fruity ones here on joining too.


So.Please don't play this down it can be a problem. I think being able to CAM inappropriate requests may now help. But of course if they have your email and FB and phone number it comes through like that.


Ultimately this does more damage to photographers than anyone else because these creeps make us perhaps a little over cautious. So pretending it's not an issue for new models ,who seem the most targeted, is perpetuating the problem.

But sure yes I can see your point too that some models are ridiculous. Equating shooting nudes with being a creep is obviously whacko or immature. And certainly anyone who thinks fashion photographers are by contrast automatically safe is naive. I was myself in thinking that a well published fashion photographer on MM would not do anything to risk his reputation.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/photogra … 69509.html
But on the other hand I've encountered photographers who are sympathetic to that particular creep.

I'm not playing it down any more than other people are playing it up, and I'm not pretending it's not an issue.  I said I'm sure some are real, and I said some proportion are labeled creepy for reasons most of us wouldn't put in that category.  Quashing or exaggerating the truth in either direction in order to emphasize the other serves no purpose but to mislead. 

I would hope most people here are interested in fostering healthy skepticism based on reality, not fostering fear based only on highlighting the ugly things and suppressing any discussion of the balance.  Although I guess the framing of the OP suggests I may be wrong.

Revenge Photography wrote:

salvatori. wrote:
And I am simply amazed when photographers on this site tell everyone about 'all the models' that share all their personal experiences with them. I consider myself lucky when a model shows up...

I guess some of us have less trouble getting models to come to shoots.

+1

BTHPhoto wrote:
I would hope most people here are interested in fostering healthy skepticism based on reality, not fostering fear based only on highlighting the ugly things and suppressing any discussion of the balance.  Although I guess the framing of the OP suggests I may be wrong.

How do you come to that conclusion?  I clearly state in the OP that I believe it to be a minority at fault.

I also clearly state that the purpose of the thread was to help me determine whether its just something happening local to me or more widespread. So I asked specifically for models with first hand knowledge to post and not photographers with theories and debate. Debate on the subject is great, start another thread for it, but it doesn't help my goal here it just derails the thread taking it off topic.

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
+1

I get a creepy message about once a month. I use the term "creep" loosely, but mostly it is to describe someone who has covert intentions.

My favorite genre of creep (and this happens fairly often) are the ones who fill their portfolio with photos that were clearly taken by like 5 different photographers with about 2 of those being extremely well-taken fashion shots (for credibility, I guess?) and the rest being bad attempts at homemade porn with the date and time of the photo on the lower left corner.

Then they'll send messages like "hey beautiful...like ur look alot...let me no if u want to shoot sum erotica...paid..."

If it's a slow day I might string them along a bit for funsies and see how much bullshit I can get out of them. At least it's entertaining

Not directed at you specifically, but that seems like the sort of thing that should be CAMed more regularly and acted upon pretty rapidly.

Generally speaking:

Is there some reasoning that I'm not aware of as to why models won't report this sort of thing so those people can be removed from the site?

Should there be an incentive beyond making the site a better place for everyone?

Is the process of CAM a message too unknown? Too difficult?  Responded to too poorly or rudely?

How can the process be improved so those people are removed from the site and have a harder time returning?

Rays Fine Art wrote:
Two things-- First, thank you for a well thought out and well defined question.  You even found a way to ask the photographers to butt out without offending us (well, most of us)

And Second, I'd also like to hear and particularly if the ladies can separate out a rough idea of the relative frequency of the inappropriate to the appropriate inquiries and whether they see the same ratio in the inquiries sent from an MM mail box vs other email services.

I've gotten a few, but certainly nothing to compare to the real messages in my inbox. And actually yeah, I get a higher volume of weird things through my emails(however I do have 4 email addresses to my one mm)

DougBPhoto wrote:

Not directed at you specifically, but that seems like the sort of thing that should be CAMed more regularly and acted upon pretty rapidly.

Generally speaking:

Is there some reasoning that I'm not aware of as to why models won't report this sort of thing so those people can be removed from the site?

Should there be an incentive beyond making the site a better place for everyone?

Is the process of CAM a message too unknown? Too difficult?  Responded to too poorly or rudely?

How can the process be improved so those people are removed from the site and have a harder time returning?

I flag all creepy messages and CAM anyone suspicious, personally.

DougBPhoto wrote:

Not directed at you specifically, but that seems like the sort of thing that should be CAMed more regularly and acted upon pretty rapidly.

Generally speaking:

Is there some reasoning that I'm not aware of as to why models won't report this sort of thing so those people can be removed from the site?

Should there be an incentive beyond making the site a better place for everyone?

Is the process of CAM a message too unknown? Too difficult?  Responded to too poorly or rudely?

How can the process be improved so those people are removed from the site and have a harder time returning?

Personally I sometimes veer away from using CAM because of the replies I get sometimes.

Revenge Photography wrote:
It has become increasingly common for new models to tell me that when they join this site they are bombarded with creepy requests to shoot nudes or porn like images.

I'm curious whether you consider all "requests to shoot nudes" creepy.  And, yes, I have asked models, some new to MM, and some very much not new, whether they were interested in shooting nudes.  Some say yes, some say no.  Plenty of those who say yes, including the one I'm scheduled with in a couple weeks, say "shoot nudes = no" on their profile.  Another who I've talked with says no in her profile, but posted a casting call seeking nude shoots.

Eye of the World wrote:

Of course, since you make clear you are not shooting (which I am sad about) that might be expected.

Oh no I still get plenty of shoot offers. Just not of the creepy nature.


But I'm not a newbie and I'm not 16 anymore so I've probably lost my appeal

Art of the nude wrote:
I'm curious whether you consider all "requests to shoot nudes" creepy.

I don't consider all requests creepy personally. Though sometimes the timing of legitimate requests can be the problem. However, my thoughts on it are irrelevant.

In this context, the only definition of creepy that matters is that of the new model getting the message.  Wrong or right, it is his or her perception of the offer that becomes their truth and its their perception of the messages that is the deciding evidence to stay or leave the site.

Revenge Photography wrote:

Actually I have had model log in to MM and show me the messages they are getting.

Also I believe that most models are not pathological liars, so without evidence to the contrary I am inclined to what they say as true.

But thank you for the troll anyway.

How true is that, "I consider myself lucky when a model shows up" lol..far to many flakes.

And he wasn't "trolling", so if you don't want people to comment then maybe you shouldn't have started this post.

And I myself have several models on MM and not one of them has ever said a thing to me about any sleazy offers they have gotten, so maybe your models are just unlucky.

And I'm not saying there isn't creepy photographers on MM because there is, because I've had a few offers to share photos with some of these people and that is something I will never do because I stand by a little thing called "professionalism"

But if your models get these type of offers then maybe they should report these "so called photographers" to MM, instead of running to you, and then you writing a post about it.

Because what does that achieve for them?, absolutely nothing.

So maybe you should inform these new models there is a little thing on MM called "Blocking"...and that maybe these models should start using it.

What Fun Productions wrote:
Probably a Canadian issue.

Eh?

Laura UnBound wrote:
Oh no I still get plenty of shoot offers. Just not of the creepy nature.


But I'm not a newbie and I'm not 16 anymore so I've probably lost my appeal

Steve MacGarrett might disagree.

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
I flag all creepy messages and CAM anyone suspicious, personally.

Unfortunately, I think you're likely exceptional rather than typical.

Cayleigh Chaos wrote:
Personally I sometimes veer away from using CAM because of the replies I get sometimes.

*nods*

Unfortunately, the community still relies on things being reported, and we kinda need to do that, even if it seems like things are not being taken seriously, or responded to as courteously as one would expect.

salvatori. wrote:
So this thread, and my initial reply's response from the OP and a FG, pissed me off enough that I deleted my account, took a day off, drank some beer, and then decided to come back, because well, that just seemed like the illogical and dopey thing to do.

What I see on my return: no matter how much logic is thrown in the face of the house-of-cards premise of the original post, the only thing I see is the OP wants the thread locked because it hasn't gone his way, he continually cites me as a problem (even though I spent the weekend half-drunk and doing lawn work - with sharp implements! the horror!) and the MM fora has not disappointed me in entertainment value.

Don't even get me started on a few of the other goofy threads that still have legs...

Glad I came to my senses... lol

O_o

I haven't continually cited you as a problem at all.

As for it not going my way, I had no desire for it going anyway at all other than to stay on topic and not become a train wreck.  I wanted input from models, not theories and disruption. Yet even though I asked photographers to not interject with opinions the majority of the posts are exactly that.

Is your own sense of self importance so great that you absolutely had to push your opinion where it specifically wasn't wanted?

But you proceeded to not only push that unwanted opinion, you threw in two veiled insults directed at models.

Now you act all butt hurt?

please.... go drink some more

Revenge Photography wrote:

I haven't continually cited you as a problem at all.

As for it not going my way, I had no desire for it going anyway at all other than to stay on topic and not become a train wreck.  I wanted input from models, not theories and disruption. Yet even though I asked photographers to not interject with opinions the majority of the posts are exactly that.

Is your own sense of self importance so great that you absolutely had to push your opinion where it specifically wasn't wanted?

But you proceeded to not only push that unwanted opinion, you threw in two veiled insults directed at models.

Now you act all butt hurt?

please.... go drink some more

Uhh, I'm hardly butt-hurt.

Did I push my opinion? That's how you see it. I saw a thread with a bad foundation and flawed logic, and you accused me of trolling simply because I disagreed with your premise.

You have maintained throughout the thread that there was simply no possibility that you could have been wrong. IMHO, you are showing a level of pride that is more self-important than anything I've said, and my last reply here was supposed to be on the lighter side. Sorry if you missed that.

I will not reply again in this thread. I'm done, no matter what yours, or anyone's reply on my logic, or evident lack thereof.

salvatori. wrote:

Uhh, I'm hardly butt-hurt.

Did I push my opinion? That's how you see it. I saw a thread with a bad foundation and flawed logic, and you accused me of trolling simply because I disagreed with your premise.

You have maintained throughout the thread that there was simply no possibility that you could have been wrong. IMHO, you are showing a level of pride that is more self-important than anything I've said, and my last reply here was supposed to be on the lighter side. Sorry if you missed that.

I will not reply again in this thread. I'm done, no matter what yours, or anyone's reply on my logic, or evident lack thereof.

Let me spell it out

You pushed your opinion where it was specifically requested you not do so.
(So it appears you don't respect boundaries.)

You state that the models will not give an honest reply and won't show up at shoots.
(That part is why I called your post a troll)

When called out on it rather than bow out or stay on topic you chose to argue and further disrupt the thread.

When I refused to be drawn and ignored your off topic posts, you decided the best course of action was to spit the dummy and disable your account.

Then after a few days you come back with the announcement what you turned to alcohol to deal with your hurt feelings.

I ask you what single part of your behavior will lead models to trust you will respect their boundaries at a shoot or them for that matter?  What single action on your part in a public forum will inspire a model to trust you and want to work with you?

Models will be left to guess at how you conduct yourself away fropm the public spotlight.

Do you still wonder why models are not tripping over each other to shoot with you?

Revenge Photography wrote:
I'd like to hear first hand from models.

Photographers and others unless you are actually sending those PM's I don't consider it to be first hand knowledge. So please refrain from posting unless it absolutely necessary.

so, if you're sitting at a computer with a model and reading such messages with them, unless I actually sent it, then you don't consider it to be first hand knowledge?

what if a model takes the message and screen-shots it and emails it to me, is it still not adequate evidence, your honor, to be able to observe and relate, as it is for the model, looking at the same exact thing?

I've read a LOT of messages that I did not send, yet amazingly I can still comprehend what I have read and the various captures that have been shared.

I'm sorry, but IMHO, reading these messages just like the model receiving the messages is more than adequate first hand knowledge of what is going on.

This site already has too much polarization going on, we don't need more BS trying to drive the two camps farther apart or encouraging pointing fingers at each other, when we are codependent and should be supporting each other.

DougBPhoto wrote:

so, if you're sitting at a computer with a model and reading such messages with them, unless I actually sent it, then you don't consider it to be first hand knowledge?

what if a model takes the message and screen-shots it and emails it to me, is it still not adequate evidence, your honor, to be able to observe and relate, as it is for the model, looking at the same exact thing?

I've read a LOT of messages that I did not send, yet amazingly I can still comprehend what I have read and the various captures that have been shared.

I'm sorry, but IMHO, reading these messages just like the model receiving the messages is more than adequate first hand knowledge of what is going on.

This site already has too much polarization going on, we don't need more BS trying to drive the two camps farther apart or encouraging pointing fingers at each other, when we are codependent and should be supporting each other.

If you had such captures I would have happily accepted them, also if you had access to a new models account to read their PMs that5 too I would have accepted.

What I didn't want is the theories and that ultimately as I suspected completely derailed the thread. When all the posturing and theories from photographers in the main continued unabated the models stopped posting the information I wanted to gather.

I don't care what other people think is creepy it's irrelevant nor do I care if anyone agrees with the accuracy of the responses. The thread was created so I could decide for myself if the problem is just a local one or not.

To be honest I hate the "them and  us" mentality, but increasingly the behavior of photographers that feel their opinion must be heard even though it is specifically not wanted is making me feel far more sympathetic to the models.

This thread is a perfect example, driven totally off topic by people like yourself.

Revenge Photography wrote:
If you had such captures I would have happily accepted them, also if you had access to a new models account to read their PMs that5 too I would have accepted.

What I didn't want is the theories and that ultimately as I suspected completely derailed the thread. When all the posturing and theories from photographers in the main continued unabated the models stopped posting the information I wanted to gather.

I don't care what other people think is creepy it's irrelevant nor do I care if anyone agrees with the accuracy of the responses. The thread was created so I could decide for myself if the problem is just a local one or not.

To be honest I hate the "them and  us" mentality, but increasingly the behavior of photographers that feel their opinion must be heard even though it is specifically not wanted is making me feel far more sympathetic to the models.

This thread is a perfect example, driven totally off topic by people like yourself.

It happens all across the site, in every country represented.  The best way to try to get it to decrease is to encourage models to report those messages (as I posted earlier, which you're now claiming is off-topic, despite generating 2 relevant model responses.)

The problem is not a local one, it isn't rumor, it isn't legend.

/thread

Revenge Photography wrote:

If you had such captures I would have happily accepted them, also if you had access to a new models account to read their PMs that5 too I would have accepted.

What I didn't want is the theories and that ultimately as I suspected completely derailed the thread. When all the posturing and theories from photographers in the main continued unabated the models stopped posting the information I wanted to gather.

I don't care what other people think is creepy it's irrelevant nor do I care if anyone agrees with the accuracy of the responses. The thread was created so I could decide for myself if the problem is just a local one or not.

To be honest I hate the "them and  us" mentality, but increasingly the behavior of photographers that feel their opinion must be heard even though it is specifically not wanted is making me feel far more sympathetic to the models.

This thread is a perfect example, driven totally off topic by people like yourself.

You are seeing it now? You've asked us; photographers answer insinuating we are telling porkies. As you say it calls for a mod to issue a warning.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I think different people will have different interpretations of what constitutes creepy.  I remember one model stating she felt any photographer over the age of 30 was creepy.

Certainly doing freelance, especially on an amateur basis, will have some issues.  Some models will run into creepy photographers and some photographers will run into flaky models for example.

As the saying goes, it's hard to change other people.  What we can have some control over is the choices we make in dealing with such people.  We can reduce odds, and we can choose whether or not to pursue working with certain people.

Very true. With this line of work, where there are two people working together un monitored by a corporate entity or anything like that, 'creepy people' may feel it is ok to let their creep flag fly, or to be intoxicated while working, etc...

But I think in all lines of work that this still happens. I certainly have seen it in the 'office' world and other types of jobs. Again, most people who do this are in it for the art/work, but their will always be creeps..on MM, in church groups, schools and other walks of life.

I do not think that there is anything wrong with people in modeling/photography getting together outside of work or pursuing a further friendship, but there is a difference between that and being creepy.

Revenge Photography wrote:

The ratio is important, a few days back an experienced model created a new account because she forgot the password to her old one. In the first couple of days she got seven offers all to shoot nudes. No offers to shoot clothed. Of those seven offers three were from photographers known in the area to be creeps. Two were from photographers with no models credited and cheap porn like snapshots in their port. Only two of the seven were worth her looking into further.


Sure there may be creepy offers from creepy photographers but please don't lump all photographers of the nude as creeps. I believe creepy behavior happens after the first rejection

Her profile is marked as "some experience" and "depends on assignment" so I wonder what types of offers "no experience" and "any" are getting. Because it certainly seems that new models are being targeted before they learn better.

AgathaDelicious wrote:
What I find creepy and a bit funny are people who have written on their profile that they are not looking to hook up and will not abuse your phone number...but then they do.

This it is not TOO common though. And people who do this do get a reputation, especially since the world of fetish and other modeling is relativity a small community, at least in my town.

I have many model's phone numbers but only use them if there are problems or to confirm shoots.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I have many model's phone numbers but only use them if there are problems or to confirm shoots.

Yes And that makes you a professional.

I am speaking of people who will text a model hours and hours into the night after a shoot telling them 'we had a connection', and then, when they do not get the response that they want, they will insult the model personally.

Again, a rare case but it happens.