PrimePix wrote:
A photographer gives his honest opinion and you label him a Troll?... C'mon, be more creative than to
dish out a way overused term that doesn't even fit the premise.... Start a thread asking for input and condemn others that have a different opinion than your own? ... welcome to communism

Well go back and reread his first post,  first he casts doubt on the likelihood of the models replying honestly and closes by attacking their reliability. 

I started a thread asking for  first hand knowledge as input, not opinions. Please do reread my OP

Katsung wrote:
Can we define "creepy"  ?
I hear it so often these days.

barepixels wrote:
am curious too.  OP how about posting some samples

Its not something I want to define myself, mainly because its subjective and everyone has a different idea. If I was to define it then somebody is sure to post exceptions or something I left out.  Since the definition is not the objective of this thread attempting to define it will only send the thread off topic.

Not being a model myself, I don't get any creepy messages to post as an example. Though if one of the models has an example they would like to post with the names redacted to avoid outing, then I have no objection.

salvatori. wrote:
Unless you are standing over the shoulder of models and reading their PMs, I'm not sure how credible your results are going to be. I mean, you're only gonna hear what the models want you to hear (and what you want to hear from them as well).

That really hasn't been my experience.

I've had a number of friends who wanted to give modeling a try & thus join this site only to give it up. When I inquire about it (since many have become my friends & they'll still shoot with me), they list those same reasons as the OP. Although I freely admit my model pool is limited, many of the claims of the OP can be corraborated by experienced models who open up a 2nd profile (especially if their profiles are segregated - like one is nonnude & the other nude).

MartaBrixton wrote:
No, you don't have to rethink anything, you look great! Just post a casting call and you will see you'll get plenty of messages. I don't receive ANY messages at all unless I post a casting call. Good luck!

Jasmine Jordon wrote:
Thank you! I've actually received a couple of responses to my availability notice which have resulted in scheduled shoots (fully clothed). My nude shoot is one I've set up outside MM. Perhaps I'm just not the "creepy" guy's type? Short and sweet isn't for everyone. Lol

However, things could change after my port is updated. Please do not misinterpret what I'm saying. I do not hope for "creepy" messages! I'm just saying I've not received any inappropriate messages.

Ask and you shall receive

Koryn wrote:
It is my personal opinion that many people are FAR too sensitive about that sort of thing.

"porn like offers" does not necessarily mean "porn."

Fetish content is often not explicitly pornographic, is allowed on this site, and is one of the reliable markets that freelance models can use to earn a living.

I've always found it amusing when models who are unfamiliar with the atmosphere of booking web-based work act shocked and appalled that they are getting offers to do lingerie spanking videos.

That's just the internet modeling landscape. No one is going to make you take the job if you don't want to, but it's sure as hell not "creepy."

I agree that what sounds creepy to some may sound perfectly fine to another.

Unfortunately models that leave make their decision on their perception of the offers. So when you bundle 3 or 4 borderline offers with a bunch of other nude offers and maybe one clearly creepy offer, that persons perception is possibly skewed. Particularly if there have been no non nude offers made.

So while 90% of the offers considered in isolation may be fine, I think that perhaps the combination of grouping them and the timing of their arrival paints a completely different picture for many new models.

Jasmine Jordon wrote:
I joined a couple of weeks ago. Since then I've only received 2 messages which I deemed to be scams. However, I have not received any "creep" emails asking for anything.

My profile clearly states I do nudes... Perhaps I should rethink the modeling thing? After all, if I'm not getting these types of messages, what does that say about my sex appeal? Oh my! And I was in the midst of arranging my first full nude shoot! Hmmm...

I just got some new pre wrinkled bed sheets, and just remodeled my basement, wanna come shoot some "art nudes?" oh it's for my coffee table book.

Revenge Photography wrote:
Actually I have had model log in to MM and show me the messages they are getting.

Also I believe that most models are not pathological liars, so without evidence to the contrary I am inclined to what they say as true.

But thank you for the troll anyway.

Are you getting why there is a little friction now in this forum area given that attack on you and disrespect of your question?


In answer to your question.
The UK is different. There are several sites here that new models are bombarded with sleazy messages. Here it's just the odd one. I put up on my profile that I didn't want such messages and 'this site is not a knocking shop' and they have subsided.
So I am not sure whether they tend to target new models or whether that got the desired effect. I think a little of both. I think the sleazy guys are more likely to hit on models they regard as possibly naive.

Just as these guys exist, unprofessional models exist. I don't think judgements should be made about the majority of the membership on either.

I also know it's not just the gwcs guilty. In fact the vast majority of them ate extremely humble, respectful, and want to learn. I've never had a problem with any I've worked with. Some of the most disgusting messages I had were from established and respected photographers.

Several for example start out interested in shooting. One talks back and it gets quite late. Sometimes I feel alcohol may be involved. Then a few inappropriate comments. Of course one lets them go a little because they know they are good photographers and you want to shoot. So one tries to avoid it. Then it comes to asking to webcam almost every time, generally with suggestive coarse language. And that's the point one cuts out.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Are you getting why there is a little friction now in this forum area given that attack on you and disrespect of your question?


In answer to your question.
The UK is,different. There are,several sites here that new models her bombarded with sleazy messages. Here it's just the odd one. I put up on my profile that I didn't want such messages and 'this,site us not a knocking shop's

I don't think it was a personal attack on me, more an attack on the topic and an attempt to turn it into a train wreck by attacking the integrity of models in general.

From what I've heard models that put statements similar to yours in their profile tend to send the message to the "pouncers" that they are not an easy mark. So they do tend to get fewer questionable offers. Unfortunately not all new models are prepared or pre warned. While others may be wary of adding something like that for fear of discouraging legitimate offers.

So far it appears that a number of factors are at play such as locality and the age/experience of the model.

Edit: You caught me out by adding to your post

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
So I am not sure whether they tend to target new models or whether that got the desired effect. I think a little of both. I think the sleazy guys are more likely to hit on models they regard as possibly naive.

Just as these guys exist, unprofessional models exist. I don't think judgements should be made about the majority of the membership on either.

I also know it's not just the gwcs guilty. In fact the vast majority of them ate extremely humble, respectful, and want to learn. I've never had a problem with any I've worked with. Some of the most disgusting messages I had were from established and respected photographers.

Several for example start out interested in shooting. One talks back and it gets quite late. Sometimes I feel alcohol may be involved. Then a few inappropriate comments. Of course one lets them go a little because they know they are good photographers and you want to shoot. So one tries to avoid it. Then it comes to asking to webcam almost every time, generally with suggestive coarse language. And that's the point one cuts out.

It's pretty clear that the problem isn't confined to what many would call GWC's or even when a model first joins.

Indeed 2 models I know gave up because photographers that have quite good portfolios acted inappropriately at shoots more than six months after they joined. Some waited until a second or third shoot to behave that way.

To be clear I think that is a problem also. For now though I'm concerned that the initial onslaught is driving models away before they are here long enough to balance that negative experience with the positive benefits of being here.

Revenge Photography wrote:
I don't think it was a personal attack on me, more an attack on the topic and an attempt to turn it into a train wreck by attacking the integrity of models in general.

From what I've heard models that put statements similar to yours in their profile tend to send the message to the "pouncers" that they are not an easy mark. So they do tend to get fewer questionable offers. Unfortunately not all new models are prepared or pre warned. While others may be wary of adding something like that for fear of discouraging legitimate offers.

So far it appears that a number of factors are at play such as locality and the age/experience of the model.

I think that a very accurate assessment imho. Is this what you suspected?

The webcam 'let me see what I'm paying for' isn't going to work on experienced models for example. Though it's sometimes tried on. Again not so much here now. Especially since it's been announced that one can CAM offenders.


On your added point (apologies for being too quick)
No I don't think it will drive models away. It was extremely bad one time with a big shot photographer with me and it didn't drive me away.

I think factors affecting that are more likely to be the realisaction photographers don't generally pay models unless there is a third party or the model is experienced. New models can sometimes be under the impression photographers want to shoot them simply because they are 'hot' and will pay lots for this.

I also think that models often don't get much interest apart from those first creepers so leave. As a model you cannot put a port up here and expect things to happen. It's just an online port it's up to you as a model to graft. Applying for castings on site and elsewhere, liasing with designers and muas ad well as photographers, and having a z card in the real world with MM site link for example.

So I think if one does that, starts to get some biz, then one will not be put off by creeps. But if one sits and waits and only get the creeps yes that could make some leave.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

I think that a very accurate assessment imho. Is this what you suspected?

The webcam 'let me see what I'm paying for' isn't going to work on experienced models for example. Though it's sometimes tried on. Again not so much here now. Especially since it's been announced that one can CAM offenders.

I'd pretty much already come to that conclusion after talking to a number of local models. What I wasn't clear on was how widespread the problem is, not having spoken directly to models around the world.

Revenge Photography wrote:

I agree that what sounds creepy to some may sound perfectly fine to another.

Unfortunately models that leave make their decision on their perception of the offers. So when you bundle 3 or 4 borderline offers with a bunch of other nude offers and maybe one clearly creepy offer, that persons perception is possibly skewed. Particularly if there have been no non nude offers made.

So while 90% of the offers considered in isolation may be fine, I think that perhaps the combination of grouping them and the timing of their arrival paints a completely different picture for many new models.

Again, if one finds it uncomfortable they are being offered a large bulk of nude offers, they might want to reconsider modeling - any kind of modeling. That's a large part of what the opportunities available online are, nude, glamour and work that is (in some way) lightly erotic. If you can't deal with the fact people want to shoot you nude, or playing a sexy role, whether or not you choose to accept, modeling just isn't for you. People who want fashion and commercial models can cast through agencies and get amazing, tall, gorgeous models, girls barely out of high school. People who need models for other genres often have far more relaxed perceptions of beauty, and tend to cast online.

Joining an online portfolio site, then expecting to do high end commercial work, or really any kind of mainstream work, other than possibly swimwear or lingerie, is just unrealistic.

The person doesn't have to take the work (more for me. Yay!), but she does need to understand that nudity has made up a significant portion of the arts world, since the days when people started learning how to draw stick figures on cave walls. That has not changed, will likely never change.

Koryn wrote:
If you can't deal with the fact people want to shoot you nude, or playing a sexy role, whether or not you choose to accept, modeling just isn't for you. People who want fashion and commercial models can cast through agencies and get amazing, tall, gorgeous models, girls barely out of high school. People who need models for other genres often have far more relaxed perceptions of beauty, and tend to cast online.

Joining an online portfolio site, then expecting to do high end commercial work, or really any kind of mainstream work, other than possibly swimwear or lingerie, is just unrealistic.

I've just going to quote the part I'm going to comment on

I think in any online activity especially creative activities one is well served by a thick skin and an open mind.

But with regard to the part I've quoted, not everyone is here to be a top fashion model or even get paid work. Many come here simply because they derive pleasure from being photographed and don't expect to be paid. They are happy to have access to good photographers willing to shoot them TF.

Other come here because it makes them feel special and beautiful or to boost their flagging self esteem.

I don't think it unreasonable for them to expect to not be hassled to shoot nudes.

I often shoot TF just for the sheer pleasure, I often tell clients willing to pay that I don't want to be paid. So I personally don't see a person as less of a model because their motivation is pleasure rather than becoming rich and famous. We all have our own motivators, none is more valid than another.

Rays Fine Art wrote:
I once had a relatively new model say to me, during our second nude shoot, "You know, I thought it would be kind of, you know, creepy shooting nudes with an old man, but it's not.  You're really very nice."  I wasn't quite sure whether to take that as a compliment or an insult, but decided that compliment felt better.

I get that from time to time too, I just laugh and tell them "Its ok, I only look creepy".

Rays Fine Art wrote:
Just adding to the definition/sensitivity observations already stated, I think "creepy' is such an over used word and so subject to personal definition that it ultimately means nothing.  I once had a relatively new model say to me, during our second nude shoot, "You know, I thought it would be kind of, you know, creepy shooting nudes with an old man, but it's not.  You're really very nice."  I wasn't quite sure whether to take that as a compliment or an insult, but decided that compliment felt better.

This has happened to me a couple of times too. Stung a little at first then just laughed it off.

Rays Fine Art wrote:
Just adding to the definition/sensitivity observations already stated, I think "creepy' is such an over used word and so subject to personal definition that it ultimately means nothing.  I once had a relatively new model say to me, during our second nude shoot, "You know, I thought it would be kind of, you know, creepy shooting nudes with an old man, but it's not.  You're really very nice."  I wasn't quite sure whether to take that as a compliment or an insult, but decided that compliment felt better.

haha ouch. that sounds like getting told "you're hot for an older woman" which I have been told on here via pm by "young studly male models"

its an age thing, no disrespect to younger models but Im pretty sure no model over 35 would ever say that to a photographer because by 33 you are already becoming aware of your own shelf life
and its depressing

Koryn wrote:
Again, if one finds it uncomfortable they are being offered a large bulk of nude offers, they might want to reconsider modeling - any kind of modeling. That's a large part of what the opportunities available online are, nude, glamour and work that is (in some way) lightly erotic. If you can't deal with the fact people want to shoot you nude, or playing a sexy role, whether or not you choose to accept, modeling just isn't for you. People who want fashion and commercial models can cast through agencies and get amazing, tall, gorgeous models, girls barely out of high school. People who need models for other genres often have far more relaxed perceptions of beauty, and tend to cast online.

I'm completely inclined to agree that the nude/glamour work makes up a very large portion of the modeling world. But just take a look at how MM itself is marketed & the rules it has like the arcane no nudity in avatars & the bizarre no porn networking.

MM specifically promotes the commercial, editorial, & fashion genres. It brings Google ad revenue (Brian Diaz has specifically said as much in the past), plus it gives them credibility from the media. Also for most of America that lives outside of MM, they still view nudity = bad. Lord help you if you're a model who does nudes, you're either a whore, a slut, or worse.

With them trying to have it both ways, can one not understand the confusion in their mixed messages for the uninitiated?

Farenell Photography wrote:

I'm completely inclined to agree that the nude/glamour work makes up a very large portion of the modeling world. But just take a look at how MM itself is marketed & the rules it has like the arcane no nudity in avatars & the bizarre no porn networking.

MM specifically promotes the commercial, editorial, & fashion genres. It brings Google ad revenue (Brian Diaz has specifically said as much in the past), plus it gives them credibility from the media. Also for most of America that lives outside of MM, they still view nudity = bad. Lord help you if you're a model who does nudes, you're either a whore, a slut, or worse.

With them trying to have it both ways, can one not understand the confusion in their mixed messages for the uninitiated?

+1000
if you were a newbie who never had any exposure to the "nude photography world" you might be shocked/surprised by all the offers for nude when you joined MM

Personally I came from the flickr world and had never checked "puppies and kitties only" on there so nothing on MM was a surprise to me

Revenge Photography wrote:

The second hand knowledge to you is first hand to me because I read the PM's myself. Posted that information only because it's relevance as part of the reason for me starting this thread.

It is entirely possible that its a local thing, that is one of the things I want to try and determine.  The information you have from models regarding the type of profile does indeed sound like it is also a factor.

Let's be honest, a few creepy people in a city/location can spam a lot of new models and really create a bad impression of th site; I am sure we have all seen it.

AJScalzitti wrote:

Let's be honest, a few creepy people in a city/location can spam a lot of new models and really create a bad impression of th site; I am sure we have all seen it.

As I said in the OP I do believe its a minority responsible for it.

barepixels wrote:

am curious too.  OP how about posting some samples

I don't know if you guys find this creepy, but I did.

A photographer that only had extremely toned, tanned, blonde models with implants in his portfolio messaged me. He said I would be perfect for a swimsuit shoot in another state (don't want to specify, middle of no where in my eyes). On his page, he had an advertisement that he was shooting swim wear in June-July, but I told him that I was busy with school during those months so he offered me to come out in August. I thought that it seemed strange that he would want to shoot at a different time, but I was also excited at the possibility of being flown out. I gave him my number for business purposes and he just got even more creepy.

What was creepy was that:
1. None of his models looked like me.
2. He kept using winking faces all throughout the messages. ) ) )
3. When I gave him my number, instead of using it to discuss the shoot. He started asking me "where are you from? " (okay...) "what do you do for fun )" (okay...)
NOTHING related to shooting me.
4. I started getting irritated and texted "So, it's interesting that you would want to shoot me considering that I look nothing like the models in your port" and he says "why wouldnt i want to shoot you? you're hot and sexy ) )"

Y'all, I was so done with him. So I stopped texting back and of course he kept texting "hello?" "are you okay?" "happy easter".

I perceived that as pretty creepy.

Cervezax wrote:
What was creepy was that:
1. None of his models looked like me.
2. He kept using winking faces all throughout the messages. ) ) )
3. When I gave him my number, instead of using it to discuss the shoot. He started asking me "where are you from? " (okay...) "what do you do for fun )" (okay...)
NOTHING related to shooting me.
4. I started getting irritated and texted "So, it's interesting that you would want to shoot me considering that I look nothing like the models in your port" and he says "why wouldnt i want to shoot you? you're hot and sexy ) )"

Y'all, I was so done with him. So I stopped texting back and of course he kept texting "hello?" "are you okay?" "happy easter".

I perceived that as pretty creepy.

If that's what you find creepy (the bolded parts), it looks like I'm screwed as well.

Seriously, I may have a majority of white, fit, & thin looking models in my portfolio but sometimes a person is looking for diversity in their projects. That & the reason why a majority of the people in my port are white, thin looking females are because that's simply the most willing people to step in front of my camera. If you think that's creepy then I don't know what to tell you.

Sometimes to when a model has already given me her number, I'll randomly text just to stay on their radar. People do get busy, y'know? That & MM's messaging system is not all that reliable. Just this week I've stopped getting email alerts after once again, they "fixed" something. Lord only knows if I'll ever get them back.

Farenell Photography wrote:
If that's what you find creepy (the bolded parts), it looks like I'm screwed as well.

Seriously, I may have a majority of white, fit, & thin looking models in my portfolio but sometimes a person is looking for diversity in their projects. That & the reason why a majority of the people in my port are white, thin looking females are because that's simply the most willing people to step in front of my camera. If you think that's creepy then I don't know what to tell you.

Sometimes to when a model has already given me her number, I'll randomly text just to stay on their radar. People do get busy, y'know? That & MM's messaging system is not all that reliable. Just this week I've stopped getting email alerts after once again, they "fixed" something. Lord only knows if I'll ever get them back.

Everything was a compounded effect, if that makes sense.

I'm fine with diversity, I could definitely understand wanting to add that to his portfolio. That is why I did not immediately dismiss him and I have worked with photographers that have models that do not look like me, NO issue with that at all. It became a red flag after further interaction with him.

First, I look like nothing like anyone you have in your port. Second, you want to fly me out and shoot me after the date stated on your port. Third, the winking faces make me wonder, "is he thinking about trying something?".  Fourth, you are messaging me with nothing related to modeling and continue to do so.

All of those things TOGETHER made him creepy. It is perfectly okay to text me a few things here and there to make sure we are still shooting, but nothing he texted me had anything to do with shooting. It is important to act like a professional. Please do not tell me "because you're hot and sexy )", saying something like "I really love your look, I think it would add diversity to my portfolio" would make me feel much safer.

Sometimes, it's hard to explain why something felt creepy(unsafe) unless you were there to experience it.

Farenell Photography wrote:
I'm completely inclined to agree that the nude/glamour work makes up a very large portion of the modeling world. But just take a look at how MM itself is marketed & the rules it has like the arcane no nudity in avatars & the bizarre no porn networking.

MM specifically promotes the commercial, editorial, & fashion genres. It brings Google ad revenue (Brian Diaz has specifically said as much in the past), plus it gives them credibility from the media. Also for most of America that lives outside of MM, they still view nudity = bad. Lord help you if you're a model who does nudes, you're either a whore, a slut, or worse.

With them trying to have it both ways, can one not understand the confusion in their mixed messages for the uninitiated?

I can, though it seems that it would be the other way around. When I joined this site and OMP, many long years ago, with two years of classical art modeling under my belt, and only a vague curiosity about exploring arts photography, I was highly skeptical. Skeptical that ANYONE would want to work with a short, stocky woman, and skeptical that there would be any online work available to me that was not pornographic. I joined expecting to be bombarded with people wanting xxx models and escort services.

Instead, I was booking legit portfolio building shoots almost immediately, exchanged emails with all types and kinds of creative folks, and didn't get a single porn offer until almost a year after I joined, and that was an isolated incident.

Maybe going in with low expectations made a difference, but I really don't think so. There is little room for naivety online

FotoMark wrote:
I just got some new pre wrinkled bed sheets, and just remodeled my basement, wanna come shoot some "art nudes?" oh it's for my coffee table book.

I feel better now... thanks!

Cervezax wrote:

Everything was a compounded effect, if that makes sense.

I'm fine with diversity, I could definitely understand wanting to add that to his portfolio. That is why I did not immediately dismiss him and I have worked with photographers that have models that do not look like me, NO issue with that at all. It became a red flag after further interaction with him.

First, I look like nothing like anyone you have in your port. Second, you want to fly me out and shoot me after the date stated on your port. Third, the winking faces make me wonder, "is he thinking about trying something?".  Fourth, you are messaging me with nothing related to modeling and continue to do so.

All of those things TOGETHER made him creepy. It is perfectly okay to text me a few things here and there to make sure we are still shooting, but nothing he texted me had anything to do with shooting. It is important to act like a professional. Please do not tell me "because you're hot and sexy )", saying something like "I really love your look, I think it would add diversity to my portfolio" would make me feel much safer.

Sometimes, it's hard to explain why something felt creepy(unsafe) unless you were there to experience it.

makes total sense to me, your "spidey-sense" was tingling and when you questioned him further you just got more and more put off by his responses, so while not "CREEPY" in all caps, it more or less set your alerts off and you are right to listen to that little voice

if i had gotten the same responses i would have backed off too

Kyzn wrote:
It's not just female models that received inappropriate shoot requests when first joining, just throwing that out there...

Absolutely.. I have heard of male models being targeted in the same way. In some ways it's more difficult for a male, because you are expected to suck it up and receive little sympathy or support.

Thank you for posting.