GeorgeMann wrote:
Model Mayhem provides a method of communication for models, photographers, those wishing to sell cameras, lingerie , lighting, etc., as well as paying jobs for models and photographers, even though on a smaller scale.
Much the same as the "advertising industry" puts them in touch with the clients wishing to advertise and nothing more.
The "Banking Industry" does the same with those wishing financing or a place for the MM amateur models to place their money made through MM advertising.
"Photography Gear" is purchased widely by photographers that have communicated right here on MM asking others what, which, and who to buy and deal with.
How much more of an industry do you need than an industry that can and does supply you with everything you need from equipment, subjects, clients, and producers, as MM does??

MM doesn't do any of it for you. You do all the work, it's not an industry, it's a website. More like a social media site in a niche market. It doesn't provide a real hands on service or product.

Now if MM set you up with those clients and has the gear on the shelf for you and arranged payments etc.  then I would agree.

Marin Photography NYC wrote:

MM doesn't do any of it for you. You do all the work, it's not an industry, it's a website. More like a social media site in a niche market. It doesn't provide a real hands on service or product.

Now if MM set you up with those clients and has the gear on the shelf for you and arranged payments etc.  then I would agree.

"Now if MM set you up with those clients and has the gear on the shelf for you and arranged payments etc.  then I would agree"

There is absolutely no industry that does any of the work for you.

Read above. I said "Model Mayhem provides the source of communication"
to obtain all of the aforementioned products.

The so called "Fashion industry" (the industry) does not provide you with anything more.
If you participate in the "fashion industry" you must provide your own equipment, your own, or the clients, clothing, and usually the agencies supplied model, and you get all that by communicating with those in charge of what you need.
Top notch photographers and models here on Model Mayhem need to do nothing more than "communicate" to get what they desire through MM.
MM has a tremendous supply of quality photographers, and quality models, making up one hell of a profitable "industry"

The Grand Artist wrote:
So no one on Model Mayhem earns any money from modeling?

Of course they do, but no one on MM is making the big industry bucks you make if you are signed to a major agency. If you were, and agency would snatch you up ASAP bc you clearly make money.
This site is for hobbyists and for ppl like myself to make side money. A number of models signed and unsigned use this site for quick money jobs that don't have to go through the hassles of their agency. (Ex. I get plenty of low paying work that my agency wouldn't bother with bc they'd make $40 from it. In the end I make all of it and I pay my bills w/o needing a side job.)

JThompson wrote:
Of course they do, but no one on MM is making the big industry bucks you make if you are signed to a major agency. If you were, and agency would snatch you up ASAP bc you clearly make money.
This site is for hobbyists and for ppl like myself to make side money. A number of models signed and unsigned use this site for quick money jobs that don't have to go through the hassles of their agency. (Ex. I get plenty of low paying work that my agency wouldn't bother with bc they'd make $40 from it. In the end I make all of it and I pay my bills w/o needing a side job.)

This is a narrow view of modelling.
There are thousands of models here making a living. It's easy enough in a primary market. There are hundreds, many of them here, making a living primarily out of life modelling in London alone.
Then thousands doing promotional modelling.
Just fyi, you nay want to read Ashley Mears the sociologists findings.
She shows a picture of agency high fashion models struggling, sometimes in debt for thousands. And catalogue and fitting models making good money. I certainly kept a roof over my head in London doing Art and fit mainly. Not big industry bucks maybe but a living.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/ … ogist.html

The Grand Artist wrote:
I can not believe this was such a complicated question for so many people.

There isn't 'a' modelling industry. Models work across several vastly different economic areas, and MM models serve all plus amateurs.
So as you didn't establish what you meant, it needed a discussion.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

There isn't 'a' modelling industry. Models work across several vastly different economic areas, and MM models serve all plus amateurs.
So as you didn't establish what you meant, it needed a discussion.

+1

The Grand Artist wrote:
I can not believe this was such a complicated question for so many people.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe."

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

There isn't 'a' modelling industry. Models work across several vastly different economic areas, and MM models serve all plus amateurs.
So as you didn't establish what you meant, it needed a discussion.

This thread is old but I am pretty sure that someone posted a definition of industry.

I understand that creatives define everything through their own individual worldview and personal life experiences so I really should not be surprised by the various responses.

Herman van Gestel wrote:
it's for 10% about the industry, and 95% about hobby...

.. enough margin to find the 1% talent...



herman
www.hermanvangestel.com

That's 106%.

Smedley Whiplash wrote:
Now that Soapbox is gone, the Mayhem part doesn't make sense. 

I recommend calling it DayOldOatmeal.com now. 

Ahh...no.

There is still plenty of mayhem without the SB.

Smedley Whiplash wrote:
Now that Soapbox is gone, the Mayhem part doesn't make sense. 

I recommend calling it DayOldOatmeal.com now. 

  Disappointed because above link didn't work

WIP wrote:

I think you're being screwed over.

That.

I can only speak for the market in Paris but being a working model here is a bit like that:

so you got signed with a top agency. Super! You're one of their 300 beautiful  girls and your hopes are high.

OMG you REALLY, for once, actually did get to win a casting?? Hell!! Well done. The client must have absolutely LOVED you and insisted a great deal so they actually take you and not the bookers girlfriend as usual (who is also a model in your agency...get it?).

You see the pay slip, it says 3800eur. F*** me! And you're going to have a whopping 1200eur out of that.

All the dieting, the castings, the disappointments (yes, you heard the client on that other job wanted you too but somehow that one booker gf got the job. Booker said it's because your nose was too big and you should probably consider surgery).

So that was the one job you booked with your agency in 3 months. Thrilling! In the meantime, you obviously have an exclusive contract so freelance stuff - no way!

Ok, I think you get the idea.

Now, as a freelance model a catalogue is about 300-600eur/day (that's the low to average rate). You shoot several of them per month; sometimes several a week. You get your regular clients, you do fittings and whatnot. You push it up to 4000-6000eur a month.
Noone tells you you need surgery, not much weird agency politics going on.

You're free and what you earn goes into your pocket.

Agencies in this day and age have a lot less work than what they used to. The girls that are working and getting the high fees (and YES, I have seen agency girls do crappy showrooms for 100eur a DAY - as a freelance you'd claim more than DOUBLE as a minimum rate, trust me...!) - these girls are pretty much top models or at the level just Under that. These are a very, very, very select few.

Most agency girls wait for the phone to ring - I have friends in that situation, they're secretly freelancing to actually pay the bills, so I know what I'm talking about.

So this was kinda long. My point being: agencies are full of hot.... air. And full of themselves, too. If you approached an agency girl directly and offered her to do that 4000usd catalogue for 400usd.... I bet at least 1 out of 2 would say yes.

ddtphoto wrote:
Depends. If it's a national ad campaign with top shelf agency talent then those numbers aren't too crazy for a full day rate. I know a hand model who told me he still gets about $30,000 a year for an ATT commercial he did 3 years ago. His hand was in the spot for about 5 seconds.

Oh boy! Do I want something like that, YES.
Jen
edit: however, thankfully due to MM I am allowed to be in this periphery...willing to hop over to the real industry for sure but, thanks to this mayhem I have a hobby for now.

Magda Kulpinska wrote:
That.

I can only speak for the market in Paris but being a working model here is a bit like that:

so you got signed with a top agency. Super! You're one of their 300 beautiful  girls and your hopes are high.

OMG you REALLY, for once, actually did get to win a casting?? Hell!! Well done. The client must have absolutely LOVED you and insisted a great deal so they actually take you and not the bookers girlfriend as usual (who is also a model in your agency...get it?).

You see the pay slip, it says 3800eur. F*** me! And you're going to have a whopping 1200eur out of that.

All the dieting, the castings, the disappointments (yes, you heard the client on that other job wanted you too but somehow that one booker gf got the job. Booker said it's because your nose was too big and you should probably consider surgery).

So that was the one job you booked with your agency in 3 months. Thrilling! In the meantime, you obviously have an exclusive contract so freelance stuff - no way!

Ok, I think you get the idea.

Now, as a freelance model a catalogue is about 300-600eur/day (that's the low to average rate). You shoot several of them per month; sometimes several a week. You get your regular clients, you do fittings and whatnot. You push it up to 4000-6000eur a month.
Noone tells you you need surgery, not much weird agency politics going on.

You're free and what you earn goes into your pocket.

Agencies in this day and age have a lot less work than what they used to. The girls that are working and getting the high fees (and YES, I have seen agency girls do crappy showrooms for 100eur a DAY - as a freelance you'd claim more than DOUBLE as a minimum rate, trust me...!) - these girls are pretty much top models or at the level just Under that. These are a very, very, very select few.

Most agency girls wait for the phone to ring - I have friends in that situation, they're secretly freelancing to actually pay the bills, so I know what I'm talking about.

So this was kinda long. My point being: agencies are full of hot.... air. And full of themselves, too. If you approached an agency girl directly and offered her to do that 4000usd catalogue for 400usd.... I bet at least 1 out of 2 would say yes.

Interesting perspective from someone with first hand experience.


Only thing I slightly raised my eyebrow at was showroom only paying 100 a day from agencies. This is not my experience. I know what the agency models were on. I was getting more than that as the house model. But they were getting many many times more. But I guess it varies.


With your last point it's what I'm always saying. The,reason agency midels are here is,to pick up those 400 a day jobs. The problem is on MM, a large number of photographers don't have those third party clients, and like to foster the illusion that actually they don't need to pay even agency models because they will test for free. If they could do that of course, they wouldn't be here.

They don't believe that there are castings for those catalogue etc jobs on MM for 400 a day because they don't look. We freelance journeymen may get the did one, but agency models freelancers are going to get most. In both circumstances, instead of photographers thinking hell I can get an agency model on here for a mere 400 a day, or a good journeymen non agency model for 250, they think it's outrageously expensive. They have no clue what agencies charge. They have this dream of agency models shooting for fun not money. And look at the rest of us as mercenary. Instead they go for new models who look like they will trade because they have crap ports, and predictably we get the flake threads resulting, and it ends up a couple of those gas actually cost more than 400 a pro would have.

ddtphoto wrote:

Depends. If it's a national ad campaign with top shelf agency talent then those numbers aren't too crazy for a full day rate. I know a hand model who told me he still gets about $30,000 a year for an ATT commercial he did 3 years ago. His hand was in the spot for about 5 seconds.

I think I know who you're talking about
It says named George Castanza ?

KA Style wrote:
Sure but, its mostly about wanna B's. This site has gone down hill over the years in terms of quality models. Ive been here a long time, I think almost 9 years. Ive been the model and the MUA too, I know all sides of the fence. MM is more of a social site and not a professional site and thats ok.

Thats said, there are some Very professional people on this site, always has been, and always will be but, they are much less than all the wanna b's. Many have dwindled off over the years too. The forums are a so dead compared to years back!

Dont ever expect to get paid work from here, sure you can but not like many think. If you use this site knowing there will be flakes you may run into and you'll probably never get a paid gig.. you'll enjoy it more because you have realistic expectations on what the site really is.

I have no facts here just assumptions.. what maybe 5-10% of users actually make any money from this site? Those that are only use MM as a tool, an extension of their business. They probably get more out of social media.

I think it's different for models and photographers.

I didn't expect to come here to find work from members. I expected to find maybe one or two people to shoot tf with as I didn't have many shoots under my belt. I had a lot of experience modelling life drawing, and through it was getting other modelling work anyway. But for boutiques, fashion houses, fashion colleges etc. I didn't and don't need photographers, and certainly didn't want or expect work from amateur photographers.

The main purpose was to have a portfolio online.
What a model then does with it is have the web address on her z card. I landed some pretty amazing jobs doing that.
Online ports get looked at by prospective clients. I put my email address on my port originally.
This way, if you search 'model London' and say a fashion house magazine boutique art institution etc, I'd come up. Or maybe people would just know my first name from meeting me at an art class or at a boutique show room etc and could again search. My emails there so I'd get maybe a dozen a week, and maybe a third would translate to paid work.

Meanwhile, the majority of enquiries here remiained tf. Maybe one a month paid.

It's much the same now.

So you are right you can't expect work from here.
But models don't generally have websites. So online port hosting sites are important.
It's not like this for photographers. Those looking for paid work from models will be by and large disappointed, and so will those expecting tf. It is only useful for securing professional or experienced part time or amateur models. And they will mostly want paying. Because the only reason we sustain what we do is through paid work. And there are no shortage of those willing to pay in a primary market.

I do have data to support this. Check the views yourself if you doubt me.  The castings where people are paying models the views outnumber the unpaid ones more than ten to one. Sometimes more than fifty to one. Of course that gives an indicator of how many castings a model has to apply for to get a paid job here too. It's easier for industry standard models, agency models, and those who can string a sentence together of course. So that brings the odds down to 1 in 12 in my case. So in addition to the one cold call by my port, I'd get a couple of castings. In addition to.marketing myself through my port to the real world , I was able to model full time professional for three years with no agency representation.

Other pro models I know their experience is the same. We may have a blog and a Facebook, but industry professionals want and expect to see your online port. I have a hard portfolio too, but every casting I went to already had my pics printed out. I hardly got it out. Which is a shame because I had some really nice quality prints and tears.


So models expecting work to come to them here are unrealistic. And photographers expecting the same or tf, are also unrealistc. There us a way to use the site successfully, and it's using the professional and experienced models with lots of credits, good references, and portfolios.
Even if the majority don't have that, thousands do. Of course, you generally either have to pay them, or they can be enticed with editorials, big creative teams and ambitious projects, or genuine gallery bound Art projects.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I think it's different for models and photographers.

I didn't expect to come here to find work from members. I expected to find maybe one or two people to shoot tf with as I didn't have many shoots under my belt. I had a lot of experience modelling life drawing, and through it was getting other modelling work anyway. But for boutiques, fashion houses, fashion colleges etc. I didn't and don't need photographers, and certainly didn't want or expect work from amateur photographers.

The main purpose was to have a portfolio online.
What a model then does with it is have the web address on her z card. I landed some pretty amazing jobs doing that.
Online ports get looked at by prospective clients. I put my email address on my port originally.
This way, if you search 'model London' and say a fashion house magazine boutique art institution etc, I'd come up. Or maybe people would just know my first name from meeting me at an art class or at a boutique show room etc and could again search. My emails there so I'd get maybe a dozen a week, and maybe a third would translate to paid work.

Meanwhile, the majority of enquiries here remiained tf. Maybe one a month paid.

It's much the same now.

So you are right you can't expect work from here.
But models don't generally have websites. So online port hosting sites are important.
It's not like this for photographers. Those looking for paid work from models will be by and large disappointed, and so will those expecting tf. It is only useful for securing professional or experienced part time or amateur models. And they will mostly want paying. Because the only reason we sustain what we do is through paid work. And there are no shortage of those willing to pay in a primary market.

I do have data to support this. Check the views yourself if you doubt me.  The castings where people are paying models the views outnumber the unpaid ones more than ten to one. Sometimes more than fifty to one. Of course that gives an indicator of how many castings a model has to apply for to get a paid job here too. It's easier for industry standard models, agency models, and those who can string a sentence together of course. So that brings the odds down to 1 in 12 in my case. So in addition to the one cold call by my port, I'd get a couple of castings. In addition to.marketing myself through my port to the real world , I was able to model full time professional for three years with no agency representation.

Other pro models I know their experience is the same. We may have a blog and a Facebook, but industry professionals want and expect to see your online port. I have a hard portfolio too, but every casting I went to already had my pics printed out. I hardly got it out. Which is a shame because I had some really nice quality prints and tears.


So models expecting work to come to them here are unrealistic. And photographers expecting the same or tf, are also unrealistc. There us a way to use the site successfully, and it's using the professional and experienced models with lots of credits, good references, and portfolios.
Even if the majority don't have that, thousands do. Of course, you generally either have to pay them, or they can be enticed with editorials, big creative teams and ambitious projects, or genuine gallery bound Art projects.

My point was set realistic expectations for a social site such as this. That is what MM is, social. Ive worked as a model, mua and the photographer. I know how it rolls and I know how its changed here over the years. Castings are down compared to years back, Ive been running castings since 2005, forums are slow, etc, etc.

Most models I personally know do have a website. They dont really use MM for professional works, the send their pro site.

KA Style wrote:
My point was set realistic expectations for a social site such as this. That is what MM is, social. Ive worked as a model, mua and the photographer. I know how it rolls and I know how its changed here over the years. Castings are down compared to years back, Ive been running castings since 2005, forums are slow, etc, etc.

Most models I personally know do have a website. They dont really use MM for professional works, the send their pro site.

We don't need them unless we are a 'brand' ourselves like glamour models or burlesque acts. Actresses and models generally don't need them. An IMDB entry or online port is all we need. Even our blogs and facebooks are for followers not business. Though admittedly that can be goid for exposure too. Simply no need for a website never even contemplated it yet I made a living using MM as my online port for 3 years in London. Where you need to earn serious dollar to keep a roof over your head. Even most if my FB followers found me here or via my blog.

MM don't realise what they have so can't expect others to.  And I guess there are other port hosting sites. But that is what models need and use in the real world, not websites, and you guys are just extra. And of course to liase with designers, muas other models etc. I use the browse feature to find excellent contacts here in those fields too. I'm sorry to say I've never had to search for a photographer and I will let you wonder why some competent photographers struggle to get answers from emails from models as judged by complaints to that effect. Of course you can imagine we are not here, or not serious, or don't get paid work. But while you believe it you will find it difficult to liase effectively with them. I don't gave a problem. Neither do photographers who've worked it out..


Look imagine if there were only elite education establishments where you had to pay through the nose to get a teacher for your kids. (model agencies)
The only other way was through "Teacher Mayhem" an online website for teachers (including some of those)  to sell themselves. Or it could be doctors. Now yes you have to rule out the large number with no credits. Or take a chance. Or you could pay a fraction of what the elites edu establishments charge?  Now it's a no brainer isn't it? Still going to try for the teachers who haven't passed their probation year or never will? No. You go for the best you can because your kids or your sick kids deserve the best you can afford. Or would you try it on because some parents have prodigy kids so boast they don't need to pay the teachers? Add to that the approach counts fir a lit. You going ti sound professional to secure their services or you going to say " hi sexy wanna cam?"

As I said. Those who want to find professionals here will.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Interesting perspective from someone with first hand experience.


Only thing I slightly raised my eyebrow at was showroom only paying 100 a day from agencies. This is not my experience. I know what the agency models were on. I was getting more than that as the house model. But they were getting many many times more. But I guess it varies.


With your last point it's what I'm always saying. The,reason agency midels are here is,to pick up those 400 a day jobs. The problem is on MM, a large number of photographers don't have those third party clients, and like to foster the illusion that actually they don't need to pay even agency models because they will test for free. If they could do that of course, they wouldn't be here.

They don't believe that there are castings for those catalogue etc jobs on MM for 400 a day because they don't look. We freelance journeymen may get the did one, but agency models freelancers are going to get most. In both circumstances, instead of photographers thinking hell I can get an agency model on here for a mere 400 a day, or a good journeymen non agency model for 250, they think it's outrageously expensive. They have no clue what agencies charge. They have this dream of agency models shooting for fun not money. And look at the rest of us as mercenary. Instead they go for new models who look like they will trade because they have crap ports, and predictably we get the flake threads resulting, and it ends up a couple of those gas actually cost more than 400 a pro would have.

This is the problem I have with your posts on this: everything you, and others, say about the life of a journeyman model is no doubt true, but you miss the point that while it may theoretically be a good deal to pay such a model, or an agency model who is freelancing, it is also a total waste of money for a hobbyist photographer - at least on anything like a regular basis. The money goes into a black hole. You get a great looking model who can rock her poses, but all that gives you is a few pics you can bung onto your portfolio. A week later and you have lost any passing interest you might have had in them in the warm post shoot glow while you are editing. Then it's gone, vanished, who gives a shit etc etc, and you are thinking about the next one.
You've just spent £200-£300 on the net equivalent of vanity publishing. And we're supposed to do it over and over?
Now, you are always saying that these models are worth their hire, and you'll get no argument from me. However, what that also means is that your few pics of a great model are not going to persuade other such models to suddenly abandon their rates and work with you for trade.
That's only going to happen if you shoot them a lot, and along the way raise your game to a level where the images really are worth it without a fee.
By themselves those models will do nothing to improve your photography beyond telling you what a good model looks and acts like. And that's just as likely to spoil the appeal of more ordinary models for you.
I have seen photographers who shell out time and again shooting the best models they can get, and their photographs still suck. Yes they are in focus, not over-exposed etc etc, but fuck me are they boring. Endless clones of equally unimaginative stuff that could just as easily be produced by shooting tf with the not so attractive girl down the road, even if you don't have that glossy edge.
I don't know what motivates the guys who are well heeled enough to keep chucking that money away. I think they are like stamp collectors who obsess over having perfectly neat binders full of tiny little pictures.
To be perfectly honest, even the good ones, who get elevated to some kind of quasi-mystical status aren't producing art. Mostly they happen upon a formula that wins them kudos, and then they refine it. And then they reproduce it ad infinitum.
Sure it's nice to look at at, but it's still so much so what.
But, if they can and want to pay out, I suppose it makes as much sense as hitting a tiny little ball around a field with a stick. Just don't make it into some kind of moral imperative for everyone who owns a camera.

rxz wrote:
I may be dating myself, but a company called Apple made Beatle albums.

What, at all, does that have to do with whether Model Mayhem is connected the the industry?

Tim Griffiths wrote:
This is the problem I have with your posts on this: everything you, and others, say about the life of a journeyman model is no doubt true, but you miss the point that while it may theoretically be a good deal to pay such a model, or an agency model who is freelancing, it is also a total waste of money for a hobbyist photographer - at least on anything like a regular basis. The money goes into a black hole. You get a great looking model who can rock her poses, but all that gives you is a few pics you can bung onto your portfolio. A week later and you have lost any passing interest you might have had in them in the warm post shoot glow while you are editing. Then it's gone, vanished, who gives a shit etc etc, and you are thinking about the next one.
You've just spent £200-£300 on the net equivalent of vanity publishing. And we're supposed to do it over and over?
Now, you are always saying that these models are worth their hire, and you'll get no argument from me. However, what that also means is that your few pics of a great model are not going to persuade other such models to suddenly abandon their rates and work with you for trade.
That's only going to happen if you shoot them a lot, and along the way raise your game to a level where the images really are worth it without a fee.
By themselves those models will do nothing to improve your photography beyond telling you what a good model looks and acts like. And that's just as likely to spoil the appeal of more ordinary models for you.

I have seen photographers who shell out time and again shooting the best models they can get, and their photographs still suck. Yes they are in focus, not over-exposed etc etc, but fuck me are they boring. Endless clones of equally unimaginative stuff that could just as easily be produced by shooting tf with the not so attractive girl down the road, even if you don't have that glossy edge.
I don't know what motivates the guys who are well heeled enough to keep chucking that money away. I think they are like stamp collectors who obsess over having perfectly neat binders full of tiny little pictures.
To be perfectly honest, even the good ones, who get elevated to some kind of quasi-mystical status aren't producing art. Mostly they happen upon a formula that wins them kudos, and then they refine it. And then they reproduce it ad infinitum.

Sure it's nice to look at at, but it's still so much so what.
But, if they can and want to pay out, I suppose it makes as much sense as hitting a tiny little ball around a field with a stick. Just don't make it into some kind of moral imperative for everyone who owns a camera.

Journeymen models don't look to work with hobbyist photographers. Generally they are actually the very ones who DON'T want to pay.
The assumption that's it's hobbyists paying models is a false one. Sure some do. And sure a good hobbyist with nice work and ideas a model will work with.

I choose to work with hobbyists only if I think they show some promise and I can help. But if course I want pay for this too. To be honest, I havent worked with that many beginner photographers on MM. The ones I have worked with have been through camera clubs, educational establishments, and workshops, not MM. So they know models are paid. And I have actually been given some of my favourite images through them though haven't used them on my port. But most I haven't seen the outcome. Neither have I for many of my pro jobs unless I friend calls me and says you are in "Dorset Life" or something.
Nevertheless I still have drawers full of CDs I have barely looked at.

So models don't need photographs if they've been at it a while. My port shoots ate all paid but I've still got pics and all are fairly recent and were from shoots resulting in publication.

So here's what ACTUALLY happens.

Most professional photographers or Art photographers know that if they want me they ate going to have to pay me. Less if there's a tear or it's a big creative team with designers etc. I am always open for reduced rates for ambitious projects.

Then you get the experienced semi pro phophotographers or at the level where they are getting their portfolio ready foe that step. But they now need to do something more ambitious like a location shoot on a fashion style. They need wardrobe and know pro models have it. Or maybe they want to specialuse on a niche like vintage and pin up so need to have wow pics to attract paying female clients (non models and prospective models)  who want to be shot in that style.
With a few shoots like that, a photographer is likely going to then try approaching designers and then getting first publications and ads, website and catalogue work etc.
Sure that's not what some want to do they want to be shooting at top fashion or commercial level. That's hard to reach. Sure they can try to get ti test with agency models and build a gradual port over years. But you can just as likely be leap frogged over by the former cited who gets in Wonderland or the like. I've seen it happen.

All those know pro models require paying. And it IS worth their investment. A model you pay £250 to for all day, she shows up, has creative input, probably going to be able to source good muas and wardrobe, is going to cost you less than a couple of flakes who bring nothing to the table. Time is money. And many pro or almost pro photographers know this. They also know they are competing with artists, edu establishments, designers, boutiques, hair companies, promo companies etc for models services.

I don't HAVE to justify this. This is how it is and anybody doubting it is kidding themselves. We are quite happy getting our own work, and mist appear content to let you guys remain bemused. Probably because they see the forum reactions when models try to out you straight. But some of us continue to try.


Now here comes the killer. The MM or Pimpleport or Purestonk  amateur photographer.
SOME idiot has told them you don't have to pay models they will do it for pictures. Yes, the same kind of hobbyists you mention and worse. Sometimes the pics are immaculately crafted but there's not a model among them. They are portraits, of a particular coy style. Or they ate bodyscapes. Beautifully crafted and put but not much use for trade. Or they are as you say the crap ones,too. But heres the WORST. The photographers who THINK they ate pros now because they've got paid by a Paul Raymond mag for two shoots. Or even worse the readers wives shooters. Or the obnoxious wedding photographer who has no model images, but thinks because he's making £50k a year on weddings he's of a standard that models will trade with him. Then spreads shit round the internet about why models are up themselves. Few even know what modelling actually is. They just think it's just about sexy looks. You get the guys who think every model must want to do glamour, and they will need such images,for their port so will trade. It even drives experienced glamour models up the wall. The "shoot with me luv I'll make you a,star" attitude prevails with these hobbyists.

EVERY model here will have approaches from these guys. Most of us wouldn't even work with most of them for pay. And here they are, imbued with this ridiculous idea that some better photographer mate has teased them with that you can get models for free here.

The sad thing is, after being inundated with this crap, a,lot of models actually stop even opening emails. I left one UK site after fifty such requests in first couple of weeks. Not one offered pay, and most I would I actually have shot for pay!!!! So there I am working,with photographers like Marco Sanges and Sheradon Dublin , and Agent P and the Royal Academy, plus the journeyman stuff, and getting ABUSE from amateur photographers that I decline!!!!

Never had abuse over my rates from a pro. Ever. It only comes from deluded hobbyists. Not that they are all like this.Some are charming and understanding.  But enough are so hostile and demanding that it will make experienced models often choose not to reply. It's like the sign in the pub: "please don't ask for credit as refusal often causes offence".

WIP wrote:
After reading all of that and yes I did read it all,  I think, it seems MM is not the site for Eliza and is below her standards.

You obviously didn't. I'm here aren't I not on Pimpleport?
Or the posts I responded to.

The point is that even if this site represents say a 80-20% ratio amateurs to professionals, it's best to work with the 20% or those who take their work seriously and have ability, models or photographers.


The problem is that the hobbyist with the arrogant idea they can get models tf and are rude in approach and abusive after rejection can make models reluctant to reply. Models use their ports here largely as a base to get real world,work from site and offsite, apply for paid castings etc not try to get paid work with the kind of amateurs that the previous poster cited. You don't see them posting paid castings.


It's the same for photographers who are serious. Don't waste your time on.potential flakes,and wannabes be selective. That's not like,saying the,site isn't good enough for you is it? I'm even handed in this but you have to get real. This is a site where models host ports in pursuit of paid work. And it works. But photographers trying that are going to be disappointed. Your ultimate aim should be to get third parties from your websites. Then you'll have clients to pay your models. Those that do that are the ones posting many of the paid castings here and the ones most models here are after. But theres also non photographer jobs.

One of my recent best paid jobs was modelling at a wedding fair for eg. Nothing to do with photographers but from a designer contact here. There were photographers there but no clue who they were or which wedding publication the pics will be in.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

Journeymen models don't look to work with hobbyist photographers. Generally they are actually the very ones who DON'T want to pay.
The assumption that's it's hobbyists paying models is a false one. Sure some do. And sure a good hobbyist with nice work and ideas a model will work with.

I choose to work with hobbyists only if I think they show some promise and I can help. But if course I want pay for this too. To be honest, I havent worked with that many beginner photographers on MM. The ones I have worked with have been through camera clubs, educational establishments, and workshops, not MM. So they know models are paid. And I have actually been given some of my favourite images through them though haven't used them on my port. But most I haven't seen the outcome. Neither have I for many of my pro jobs unless I friend calls me and says you are in "Dorset Life" or something.
Nevertheless I still have drawers full of CDs I have barely looked at.

So models don't need photographs if they've been at it a while. My port shoots ate all paid but I've still got pics and all are fairly recent and were from shoots resulting in publication.

So here's what ACTUALLY happens.

Most professional photographers or Art photographers know that if they want me they ate going to have to pay me. Less if there's a tear or it's a big creative team with designers etc. I am always open for reduced rates for ambitious projects.

Then you get the experienced semi pro phophotographers or at the level where they are getting their portfolio ready foe that step. But they now need to do something more ambitious like a location shoot on a fashion style. They need wardrobe and know pro models have it. Or maybe they want to specialuse on a niche like vintage and pin up so need to have wow pics to attract paying female clients (non models and prospective models)  who want to be shot in that style.
With a few shoots like that, a photographer is likely going to then try approaching designers and then getting first publications and ads, website and catalogue work etc.
Sure that's not what some want to do they want to be shooting at top fashion or commercial level. That's hard to reach. Sure they can try to get ti test with agency models and build a gradual port over years. But you can just as likely be leap frogged over by the former cited who gets in Wonderland or the like. I've seen it happen.

All those know pro models require paying. And it IS worth their investment. A model you pay £250 to for all day, she shows up, has creative input, probably going to be able to source good muas and wardrobe, is going to cost you less than a couple of flakes who bring nothing to the table. Time is money. And many pro or almost pro photographers know this. They also know they are competing with artists, edu establishments, designers, boutiques, hair companies, promo companies etc for models services.

I don't HAVE to justify this. This is how it is and anybody doubting it is kidding themselves. We are quite happy getting our own work, and mist appear content to let you guys remain bemused. Probably because they see the forum reactions when models try to out you straight. But some of us continue to try.


Now here comes the killer. The MM or Pimpleport or Purestonk  amateur photographer.
SOME idiot has told them you don't have to pay models they will do it for pictures. Yes, the same kind of hobbyists you mention and worse. Sometimes the pics are immaculately crafted but there's not a model among them. They are portraits, of a particular coy style. Or they ate bodyscapes. Beautifully crafted and put but not much use for trade. Or they are as you say the crap ones,too. But heres the WORST. The photographers who THINK they ate pros now because they've got paid by a Paul Raymond mag for two shoots. Or even worse the readers wives shooters. Or the obnoxious wedding photographer who has no model images, but thinks because he's making £50k a year on weddings he's of a standard that models will trade with him. Then spreads shit round the internet about why models are up themselves. Few even know what modelling actually is. They just think it's just about sexy looks. You get the guys who think every model must want to do glamour, and they will need such images,for their port so will trade. It even drives experienced glamour models up the wall. The "shoot with me luv I'll make you a,star" attitude prevails with these hobbyists.

EVERY model here will have approaches from these guys. Most of us wouldn't even work with most of them for pay. And here they are, imbued with this ridiculous idea that some better photographer mate has teased them with that you can get models for free here.

The sad thing is, after being inundated with this crap, a,lot of models actually stop even opening emails. I left one UK site after fifty such requests in first couple of weeks. Not one offered pay, and most I would I actually have shot for pay!!!! So there I am working,with photographers like Marco Sanges and Sheradon Dublin , and Agent P and the Royal Academy, plus the journeyman stuff, and getting ABUSE from amateur photographers that I decline!!!!

Never had abuse over my rates from a pro. Ever. It only comes from deluded hobbyists. Not that they are all like this.Some are charming and understanding.  But enough are so hostile and demanding that it will make experienced models often choose not to reply. It's like the sign in the pub: "please don't ask for credit as refusal often causes offence".

But this is about MM and, by extension, all the other internet sites - which you rightly or wrongly disparage. That's the key. They are populated, for the most part, by just the kind of photographer you want nothing to do with.

They are also populated by just the kind of model who would like to elevate herself to journeyman status, while harbouring dreams of levels beyond, but who doesn't stand a chance of doing so.

SOME idiot has told them they have what it takes and should be charging for their time. So they spend the next few years pining for something that can never be a reality - other then, of course, doing a few shoots with just the kind of amateur you would not give the time of day to even for pay.

Taken overall the activity that is internet model photography separates out into different layers.
Right at the top I dare say, from what you say as much as anything else, there is recruitment for and by genuine professionals for commissioned work or editorial submission. I honestly think this must be a very thin layer when taken as a proportion of the whole.

Underneath is the interaction between serious amateur photographer and professional model. These professional models may be a mix of agency model not tied to an exclusivity contract (or moonlighting anyway) or models who have worked hard to make the most of what nature gave them to carve out a niche as freelancers. They are relatively few in number - those who make such a living - and are far outnumbered by the serious amateur photographers who pay them.
This is also a fairly thin layer.

Underneath that layer it's Tin Pan Alley. It's a big fat layer populated by people who are not that talented. There are thousands of photographers here, and thousands of models. They only exist as such in this layer. No one in the real world is going to pay them for what they produce. It does not matter how extreme, and extremely deluded, their attempts at self promotion are, they are going nowhere else. It's an artificial world where the make believe is sustained only because of the mutual self-interest it serves.

I understand you, and others like you, have a self image and a status to protect, and that what you say is correct. It's just not correct for anyone who does not inhabit the same rarified strata.
You say it's all gone tits up because idiots have told photographers they don;t have to pay. I say it's all gone tits up because  idiots have told models they can get paid. For a whole variety of reasons that last has caused more misery, wasted time and frustration than I care to contemplate.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

The point is that even if this site represents say a 80-20% ratio amateurs to professionals, it's best to work with the 20% or those who take their work seriously and have ability, models or photographers.


Models use their ports here largely as a base to get real world,work from site and offsite, apply for paid castings etc not try to get paid work with the kind of amateurs that the previous poster cited. You don't see them posting paid castings.

Models who pose for amateurs of such model site can make a far better living £ than models working for an agency... that maybe the reason why many agency models come onto sites such as MM.

WIP wrote:

Models who pose for amateurs of such model site can make a far better living £ than models working for an agency... that maybe the reason why many agency models come onto sites such as MM.

Maybe the odd one. But if they work for certain adult website content amateur photographers they be unlikely to get legit work again. Fine I'd that's all they want to do. And that's another industry again.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
You obviously didn't. I'm here aren't I not on Pimpleport?
Or the posts I responded to.

The point is that even if this site represents say a 80-20% ratio amateurs to professionals, it's best to work with the 20% or those who take their work seriously and have ability, models or photographers.


The problem is that the hobbyist with the arrogant idea they can get models tf and are rude in approach and abusive after rejection can make models reluctant to reply. Models use their ports here largely as a base to get real world,work from site and offsite, apply for paid castings etc not try to get paid work with the kind of amateurs that the previous poster cited. You don't see them posting paid castings.


It's the same for photographers who are serious. Don't waste your time on.potential flakes,and wannabes be selective. That's not like,saying the,site isn't good enough for you is it? I'm even handed in this but you have to get real. This is a site where models host ports in pursuit of paid work. And it works. But photographers trying that are going to be disappointed. Your ultimate aim should be to get third parties from your websites. Then you'll have clients to pay your models. Those that do that are the ones posting many of the paid castings here and the ones most models here are after. But theres also non photographer jobs.

One of my recent best paid jobs was modelling at a wedding fair for eg. Nothing to do with photographers but from a designer contact here. There were photographers there but no clue who they were or which wedding publication the pics will be in.

Again, that is a model that only works for a small percentage. It's like telling people who play golf that the only way forward is to pay professional coaches to train them to a level where they can compete in the Masters, and on the way hire the best caddies on the best golf courses.
The advice that is sound for one guy in a million is not sound for the guy who just wants to go out and play his local nine hole course as a way of getting a bit of exercise and fresh air.  No coach or caddy in existence, and no amount of practice or kit, is ever going to get him to Augusta. For him the outlay involved would be absolutely insane, never mind completely unnecessary.

It's not a perfect analogy because photographers are largely men, and being men they will pay to see (and photograph) pretty girls. And then only if they get their kit off. That's who the majority of models model for.  That's where the bulk of the money exchanges hands.

I do get it. You're good with a camera - good enough to earn a living out of model photography. Absolutely go out and hire the best models you possibly can, then start looking for business with that killer portfolio. I've even heard it said that you will be judged as much on your choice of model as on your ability with a camera (which seems counter intuitive to me, but there you go).

But out of every 1000 photographers on internet sites, how many are potentially that good?

edit: as a mater of fact, those photographers who really are that good will have great looking models flocking to work with them trade in no time at all. Please don't argue with that one, either, because I know very well that it is accurate. Unless there are models who are so selective that they will not work trade even for the super-talented. Maybe there are.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Some members want to make MM what it isn't.   Its not a website for professionals.   Its largely filled with as one member said, unrealistic dreamers.   I continue to see where a member says that fashion only models get the bulk of the paid work here.   I see no proof of that.   I never see clothes only traveling models.   Its nude art or nude glamor models who get paid because photographers here aren't paying models for clothed work for the most part.   TF or tests, sure.   Pay, no.   That's why so many models leave or stop logging in and updating if they don't do nudes.   MM is filled with men who want to see and shoot nude models.   Agencies are who books fashion and commercial work.

A few models here give the impression that MM will get you work for actual clients.   That might be true for the occasional designer with a limited budget or low paid project but you only have to have one casting where models simply don't show up to be done with that bs.   Companies, designers, stores and the like go to actual agencies because MM and OMP and other sites are NOT the Industry.   These people arrange castings where models are expected to show with comp cards to be evaluated.   Few busy pros have time for models who require escorts or who can't come last minute because they can't get a ride or their granny is sick or dead.

Folks here can spin this anyway they want.   MM is a fun place and a great to network and meet new people but is not a place that anyone with a decent budget or wants to keep their sanity should look for fashion or commercial models.   Do so at your own risk.

^^^    ^^^


This is a networking site for those interested in modeling and photography, but only slightly more useful than using Facebook or any of the many other websites that can be used for networking.  Most are not "professionals" or in some sort of "industry" here.  Althought I suppose you could call it "Internet modeling?"

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Some members want to make MM what it isn't.   Its not a website for professionals.   Its largely filled with as one member said, unrealistic dreamers.   I continue to see where a member says that fashion only models get the bulk of the paid work here.   I see no proof of that.   I never see clothes only traveling models.   Its nude art or nude glamor models who get paid because photographers here aren't paying models for clothed work for the most part.   TF or tests, sure.   Pay, no.   That's why so many models leave or stop logging in and updating if they don't do nudes.   MM is filled with men who want to see and shoot nude models.   Agencies are who books fashion and commercial work.

A few models here give the impression that MM will get you work for actual clients.   That might be true for the occasional designer with a limited budget or low paid project but you only have to have one casting where models simply don't show up to be done with that bs.   Companies, designers, stores and the like go to actual agencies because MM and OMP and other sites are NOT the Industry.   These people arrange castings where models are expected to show with comp cards to be evaluated.   Few busy pros have time for models who require escorts or who can't come last minute because they can't get a ride or their granny is sick or dead.

Folks here can spin this anyway they want.   MM is a fun place and a great to network and meet new people but is not a place that anyone with a decent budget or wants to keep their sanity should look for fashion or commercial models.   Do so at your own risk.

YEP!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Some members want to make MM what it isn't.   Its not a website for professionals.   Its largely filled with as one member said, unrealistic dreamers.   I continue to see where a member says that fashion only models get the bulk of the paid work here.   I see no proof of that.   I never see clothes only traveling models.   Its nude art or nude glamor models who get paid because photographers here aren't paying models for clothed work for the most part.   TF or tests, sure.   Pay, no.   That's why so many models leave or stop logging in and updating if they don't do nudes.   MM is filled with men who want to see and shoot nude models.   Agencies are who books fashion and commercial work.

A few models here give the impression that MM will get you work for actual clients.   That might be true for the occasional designer with a limited budget or low paid project but you only have to have one casting where models simply don't show up to be done with that bs.   Companies, designers, stores and the like go to actual agencies because MM and OMP and other sites are NOT the Industry.   These people arrange castings where models are expected to show with comp cards to be evaluated.   Few busy pros have time for models who require escorts or who can't come last minute because they can't get a ride or their granny is sick or dead.

Folks here can spin this anyway they want.   MM is a fun place and a great to network and meet new people but is not a place that anyone with a decent budget or wants to keep their sanity should look for fashion or commercial models.   Do so at your own risk.

+1 it's a networking site for creatives

Nobody can or should take a site about modeling too seriously when the models are allowed to "self identify" in their profiles.  If I need an Asian model with specific stats the agency will send me a list of choices.  On MM I can get a model who simply felt Asian that day, who decided their stats were some arbitrary numbers and who's 4th grandmother died last week.

AJScalzitti wrote:

+1 it's a networking site for creatives

Nobody can or should take a site about modeling too seriously when the models are allowed to "self identify" in their profiles.  If I need an Asian model with specific stats the agency will send me a list of choices.  On MM I can get a model who simply felt Asian that day, who decided their stats were some arbitrary numbers and who's 4th grandmother died last week.

Model Mayhem.

Where anybody can be whatever they want to be.

Even if they're not.