Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Tony like you I don't like the pay me because I'm pretty attitude that exists.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I have never claimed anything that has not Bern based on data and evidence Tony, evidence that you have consistently ignored.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I once exclusively made my living that way, and the demand exceeded supply to the extent whete I wished I could replicate myself and soon found myself in a network of dozens of non RAM models covering each other. And there are hundreds on RAM too. Most if these models also do photographic modelling and lots of them on MM. I'd estimate a hundred on MM in London alone and no doubting they ate mostly Malibu a living.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
You ate on denial of this and dismiss them as not important and nit professional despite the fact that numerous models here have testified that they do it as it can pay well, and a majority of models indicating willingness to do it.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
You state you believe there are only 25 pro.models on MM site wide yet there ate easily that many in forums.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I have no interest in raising the professional status of the site apart from seeing you guys being messed around by wannabes. As MM won't do that it's up to you to. But the reality is the experience models,here are mostly professional and you won't secure them without pay or high production value with real designers etc. Those models make up 20% of the site only. I have never claimed they ate mire but pros ate here in abundance if you look.

Can someone please translate?

Greg Kolack wrote:

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Tony like you I don't like the 'pay me because I'm pretty' attitude that exists.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I have never claimed anything that has not been based on data and evidence Tony, evidence that you have consistently ignored.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I once exclusively made my living that way, and the demand exceeded supply to the extent whete I wished I could replicate myself and soon found myself in a network of dozens of non RAM models covering each other. And there are hundreds on RAM too. Most of these models also do photographic modelling and lots of them on MM. I'd estimate a hundred on MM in London alone and no doubting they are mostly making a living.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
You are in denial of this and dismiss them as not important and not professional despite the fact that numerous models here have testified that they do it as it can pay well, and a majority of models indicating willingness to do it.

Can someone please translate?

There done.

I'm on a mobile phone and had to be quick before battery died and did not have chance to correct. You should try it sometime it's a pig with a crap predictive text..

CHAD ALAN wrote:

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

Hey guys, I like you both but I sense that things are starting to go in circles again.

Just sayin'

You think???

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

There done.

I'm on a mobile phone and had to be quick before battery died and did not have chance to correct. You should try it sometime it's a pig with a crap predictive text..

I did not need a translation, and I think that scares me.

CHAD ALAN wrote:

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

Hey guys, I like you both but I sense that things are starting to go in circles again.

Just sayin'

It was nice when they agreed to not post for a month...

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
There done.

I'm on a mobile phone and had to be quick before battery died and did not have chance to correct. You should try it sometime it's a pig with a crap predictive text..

Posting my long thoughts on MM to prove others wrong are not that important to me to deal with that.

CHAD ALAN wrote:
Hey guys, I like you both but I sense that things are starting to go in circles again.

Just sayin'

One view is based on data and the other view....not.

Tony has made no secret of his view that unless you are with a top agency you aren't a real model.

It's evident this is fallacious. Evidence abounds that the top of those models aside, many struggle
to make a living anyway so the money is on fit and showroom, catalogue and commercial. They often don't even particularly require great height. Again evidence abounds to this fact. As does the vast market for promotional models.

I am not saying that the market for nude models doesn't exist. But I haven't made any money from it and offered it for a while. The only nude shoots I did were either for proper workshops , or at my own request as I wanted some images to promote myself as a life model. Only one paid job here included some nudity. Every other paid job I was offered was clothed. You certainly don't see many in paid castings and those there are don't get nearly as many hits unless they are big money. Those that do get viewed we often pass around to each other as a joke ! The bulk 65% on average are jobs related to one industry or another be it lookbook, hair industry, niches like bridal or lingerie companies, or promo, fit etc work. That's where most of my MM work has come from, so it stands to reason industry standard models are going to have a better strike rate at those. Mine is 1 in 12 so that was enough to add to my existing work load when I was full time and remains so. In fact it's rare now. I even have to apply for castings because I get enough work from my existing contacts and have a queue as I can only afford to do a day or two a month.


Nevertheless I will defend Tony's right to give his view as erroneous as it is. But each time the argument is made, by him or others, I will point out the evidence to the contrary.

Greg Kolack wrote:
Posting my long thoughts on MM to prove others wrong are not that important to me to deal with that.

I think it important that photographers trying to liase with models realise our perspective rather than exploding all over forums whining that they've been flaked on and don't get replies. It's up to others whether they read it or not.

Herman Surkis wrote:

Kelli lives in LA
Eliza is close to London
Kate is Toronto
So no surprise there.

Eliza lives in Monmouth I drive to that area to shoot landscapes (very pretty) and it's mile away from London especially if you rely on public transport which is a nightmare... forget about going to agency castings.
Kelli and Kate are in populated areas where there's activity as opposed to hills and forests.
Saying that Monmouth and the surrounding area is great for anyone shooting nudes on landscapes.
Anyone from abroad like the States visiting the UK/Wales I highly recommend the area where Eliza lives.

WIP wrote:
Eliza lives in Monmouth I drive to that area to shoot landscapes (very pretty) and it's mile away from London especially if you rely on public transport which is a nightmare... forget about going to agency castings.
Kelli and Kate are in populated areas where there's activity as opposed to hills and forests.
Saying that Monmouth and the surrounding area is great for anyone shooting nudes on landscapes.
Anyone from abroad like the States visiting the UK/Wales I highly recommend the area where Eliza lives.

I don't live in Monmouth.

Models here don't necessarily list where they live. Where's the university of Monmouth then? And actually Copenhagen is a regular commute for me uni work wise I don't drive so go by public transport So London's nothing. I've even done gigs in London en route there. Plus the odd one there and Norway etc.

Its true Monmouth is a nice area for tourists as is the Cotswolds. That much is true. As is the area I really live which is about two and a half hours away.  As you know, I am frequently in your local magazines , websites, and press ads editorials and event coverage and guest style advice. So thought I'd better indicate close proximity to your area but give myself time to get there, and to places like the NEC for bridal shows and clothes show live , vintage and equestrian events etc. These are my major markets outside London. So it's better to say I'm closer to them than I am. But also stay in Wales see my logic? That and it prevents people who I'm never going to be working with prying. I also have somewhere near Monmouth and Cheltenham to use to crash if need be.

Herman can also confirm what I say as the truth if he looks at my FB.

Where I actually live theres limited work though I have nice clients like my avatar photographer, and the lady who.made the headpiece. But I'm four hours from central London and do the odd gig there. Indeed the same train is caught by one of the other AP commuters. If it's an afternoon or evening gig I get the megabus. But it's a long journey and knackering. I do the odd gig.

From Monmouth actually I've got a lift to Newport and been in London within 3 hours. It once took me nearly that to get from a morning gig in  Surrey to work in Farringdon.

But London is not off limits to anyone in the UK if the moneys decent and it is. The reason I don't do it much is the,travelling is tiring and I also have PhD work to do atm so it's easier to temp locally plus do a modelling gig each month on a weekend or evening. My main local photographer can give me more than I actually can do atm.


As for Hermans comments, I knew he'd say primary markets are different. That's true as I have indicated, but models in BC are often going to list themselves as Vancouver even if they aren't. I did research on BC and found 20% of models have some professional industry experience. Maybe not as regular as primary markets. And in any case, if one of my clients needs a model locally I get one from London. I put them up. It's not difficult. Hermans excuse was that it costs $100 to travel to him. Well thats nothing. There's ways and means of recuperating that get other creatives in to pool resources and share. Eg the models,we get down from London will do a showroom event, a band video, a fashion show, etc as well as a shoot.


So think guys where we say we are, may not necessarily be where we actually are. So maybe cast your net wider.


But yes I realise that there aren't many pro models in out of the way places. You have to be near a primary market, or even commute to several, to make a living. Check pro models details of where they say they are. They will frequently list several primary markets. As did some of the BC models I sent to Herman.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
It's normal for working pros to earn decent money and get  stylists and muas. If there's no pay, then it's honest to say ok I will do tf but I wanna decent team. That's not egoism. That's if I'm giving up a days work, or possibly a few days, to shoot tf it's got to be worth it. I've never demanded that but have certainly accepted that plus some financial reward

I've seen the reverse - photographers demanding I work tf, being abusive when I say no, and their ports are weak as dishwater.

I think you should ask for references if in doubt or you get the wrong impression. Divas don't have many.

There you go again. If a 'working pro' is used to getting a team on a shoot, OF COURSE she isn't going to accept tf without one (unless it's something she's interested in that doesn't need one). You know full well I'm not talking about them, because I already said I wasn't. You seem wholly unwilling to accept what is obvious to any photographer who has been frequenting these sites for any length of time - that the vast, the overwhelming, majority of models, how so ever they describe themselves, would not survive for ten seconds outside the bio dome that is the internet modelling site. Which makes the demands they make absurd. The only reason they get away with making them is because priapic fools are prepared to empty their wallets in order to see some skin flashed. You can knock that one down if you can be arsed and I will leave it at that. It's silly to pursue futile argument.

Tim Griffiths wrote:
There you go again. If a 'working pro' is used to getting a team on a shoot, OF COURSE she isn't going to accept tf without one (unless it's something she's interested in that doesn't need one). You know full well I'm not talking about them, because I already said I wasn't. You seem wholly unwilling to accept what is obvious to any photographer who has been frequenting these sites for any length of time - that the vast, the overwhelming, majority of models, how so ever they describe themselves - would not survive for ten seconds outside the bio dome that is the internet modelling site. Which makes the demands they make absurd. The only reason they get away with making them is because priapic fools are prepared to empty their wallets in order to see some skin flashed.

That's a damning indictment of other photographers. I think the human nude beautiful. I see no difference in it being used as a subject for photographers any more than artists. Sure, plenty are just after letching but I certainly don't think it the majority.


If however, the average paying photographer is after nudity and willing to pay how come I only got a few offers? The vast majority of my photographic work from here and elsewhere was clothed. Sure got loads of tf offers. But they were largely from the guys you are talking about they DON'T like paying.

I already stated too that I'm only saying it appears about 20% of models here work professionally or semi professionally. If you aren't referring to them, then that's fine. I've just never seen a casting or a profile,where a wannabe is demanding that.  I've seen plenty of pros ask for it if they are going to do tf and I've never known a photographer whinge about it either. But there again I'm  not working generally with gwcs either. On the odd time I do, they are generally not after a high fashion look. As I avoid the ones after titties, or they avoid me because I'm not busty enough, I tend to get very nice camera club types who want to shoot me on elegant wardrobe or lads or student photographers who want to shoot me retro pin up style or alt fashion. That's their bag. They like those styles. And they take up photography because they think it beautiful. Is there really anything wrong with that? As I say I only do the odd one like that but certainly been to a man (and woman) said its been the most positive experience. Several students submitting work to uni  have subsequently had their tutors book me for small group workshops incidentally so I guess they thought it worthy too. But for those gigs I do my own styling. I've even got a few published for the photographers which has given them a buzz.

At what point are those things not classed as 'industry' anyway? Students, camera clubs where the members are often photographers published in a different genre who want to practice on a real model? They buy camera equipment so the camera companies take them seriously, and are often not rank amateurs, just in this field atm. Some of the students will definitely work in the industry later. To me it's no different to doing the fashion or art college gigs


So if you are saying the vast majority of models wouldn't survive outside the biosphere of the internet modelling world I'd be inclined to agree. I'm talking about the twenty per cent that certainly do. In fact MM is just for the odd jobs for many, including me. But to ignore those models that make up that 20% is a big mistake. We range from journeymen like me to performers and actors doing modelling as part of their work, to grid  girls, to the glamour girls, to commercial agency and top alt and other niche models,  to Elite , Premier and Oxygen girls. I can give you a list of several hundred in London alone. So who cares about the thousand wannabes who cause all the strife when they are here? And plenty of competent hobbyists, hard working aspiring models, and those with a little experience and ready to start paid work in between? I started using this as a platform and managed to make a decent living in the real world through it. But applying for jobs using my port offsite to other model employers not internet photographers. Though was always happy to work with the latter and several were far from internet photographers.

WIP wrote:

Eliza lives in Monmouth I drive to that area to shoot landscapes (very pretty) and it's mile away from London especially if you rely on public transport which is a nightmare... forget about going to agency castings.
Kelli and Kate are in populated areas where there's activity as opposed to hills and forests.
Saying that Monmouth and the surrounding area is great for anyone shooting nudes on landscapes.
Anyone from abroad like the States visiting the UK/Wales I highly recommend the area where Eliza lives.

Worth the visit, especially if Eliza will buy the tea and crumpets.

Herman Surkis wrote:

Worth the visit, especially if Eliza will buy the tea and crumpets.

The photographers models and muas who've stayed generally get a champagne breakfast at the beach restaurant smoked salmon and eggs, or lavabread and bacon,  steak lunches, or afternoon teas (that's scones and clotted cream)! A bit of seal watching maybe some horse racing. They will sometimes get dragged to Dead of Night too if it falls right or a gig or burlesque We look after people check my references if you like ask Chrys, Betsy, or Cyanimages. But as I said I'm.nit in Monmouth so Chris WIP is closer so he can give you the Wye Valley tour

WIP wrote:
Not forgetting the National Park in Merthyr... the land of waterfalls...it's something out of a fairy tale.
Symonds Yat nr Eliza and the Costwolds (today's landscapes) FB.

Stunning landscapes for nudes ..... Eliza may oblige.

Don't do nudes any more had no call for it. Carl shoots a lot of stuff in Brecon with the waterfalls and his landscape books sell well, and he does fashion and vintage stuff on location there. but doesn't do nudes either. But you ate right it's like a fairy tale..
I still prefer the forest of dean though. Where I am from originally.  Do you know Puzzlewood? They filmed Blake's Seven there and Merlin and Dr Who. Again cool for tourists, then there's Tintern etc.

Why aren't you out these places shooting nudes then?

By the way, Herman knows I'm not in Monmouth if you doubt me.

So can we stop the threadjack now?

Tony Lawrence wrote:
A few things.   I've never said that I only consider models with agencies as actual models nor do I believe that  freelancers shouldn't be paid.   I have said that I believe in education and understanding what your market is.   Being 5'5" and thinking you are going to make it as a fashion model is foolish and its some of the crap some members here spew.   My observations are and please keep in mind these are my opinions.   I have no hard data to back this up nor will try and prove it with links, etc.   The models from sites like MM who make money seem to largely be the traveling nude models.   Many might actually make more at traditional jobs but they like to move around.   Several have stayed with me in the past.   They make as much they can in a city and try to save money on hotels and food by trading room and board with host photographers or they stay with local models and friends.

I have seen few non nude models do this.   Don't kid yourself though.   Their is a Industry on MM.   Its the Internet modeling industry and for a select few models its good money.   So do boutiques, stores and others book from these sites?   First, in most cases you have to be a member to contact models.   This is why Facebook is sometimes better for models.   All that said.   My feelings are you need to be young, tall, pretty, thin, White (in most cases) and live near a fashion or commercial market.   The average fashion models career is under a year.   Nude modeling in America comes with a lot of potential problems.   Certain professions like teaching, law and business can be somewhat conservative and even well done artistic nudes can be problematic. 

If you believe that being a freelance or as a member says a journeyman model will pay you enough to live on and you don't do nudes then go for it.   If you think their is enough work around that isn't booked through agencies and you can get it.   If you believe that small stores and designers and others have budgets capable of paying models then go for it.   Most simply don't.   I've been to a lot of fashion shows and with exception of a few, models weren't paid but traded clothes or tickets for their time.   My observations have been that its hobbyists on sites like MM who pay and they aren't paying you to pose in cool clothes you got from some obscure but creative designer.   Its for nudes

You should check my credits. Nothing obscure about them. They were supplied by the press offices for mag print published shoots. It's the same for many midels and creative teams.

There's very limited nude work and artists and art institutions  pay MUCH more longer hours regular work.

If you do the wrong kind of nude work you are certainly buggered for getting paid to.Jodel for boutiques and designers or getting stuff from press offices. Once more you have no cites or,data fir these beliefs and reject the testimony of myself, Kate Eaton and Victoria Elle, Kelly K etc  etc who have told you how things work for pro models. We've told you about fit and promo and given evidence of what they pay and we've all done some of them.  You also reject the fact that paid castings are only 20-35% from amateurs and very few nude amateur or pro. I've already given the castings from the other day as proof and every time I've given them it's the same story.  You carry on believing what you like and this site will continue to frustrate you and others who believe what you do. It's beyond belief and demonstrably false that models in primary markets are not working. I've given you samples from many areas in previous threads of models from your area and mine with credits that make mine look like Cinderella but I can assure you if I get to go to the ball they certainly do.
Not that you will look, but others will. Some of these you will know..


https://m.modelmayhem.com/2463288
https://m.modelmayhem.com/1836249
https://m.modelmayhem.com/1828264
https://m.modelmayhem.com/737802
https://m.modelmayhem.com/672233
https://m.modelmayhem.com/2622107
https://m.modelmayhem.com/1006931
https://m.modelmayhem.com/381437
https://m.modelmayhem.com/2537968
https://m.modelmayhem.com/1336856
https://m.modelmayhem.com/1594690
https://m.modelmayhem.com/757313
https://m.modelmayhem.com/2583607
https://m.modelmayhem.com/2199710
https://m.modelmayhem.com/1273373
https://m.modelmayhem.com/2807860
https://m.modelmayhem.com/815869
https://m.modelmayhem.com/322842

Now, those are just 25 models in London off the top of my head so can you see looking at those how absurd it sounds when you say there ate only 25 pro models site wide?
I promise you I could find 200 like that just other fit and showroom and top agency girls. There,will easy be another 100-200 from BMA and other commercial agencies too. Making damn decent money. The girls and guys we see on tv in newspapers,and mags and tube posters and catalogues.every day and there's hundreds if them here with ports.

That's before you get to all the top grid girls, hostesses, and top promo girls if which there,will be another 100-200 with credits as long as your arm; international many of them.

Then all the performance girls, actresses burlesque acts, etc. who model too.

Then there,will be a good,few hundred journeymen like me who do a bit of everything. Then the niche girls who do alt, life modelling, outside, mature, character models,etc etc.

It's getting on for a thousand in London. Pro models real industry. Just London.

Plus there will be a thousand or more part time.  So it's easy 20% industry of one kind or another models of total.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
We've always had published members.   From Ken Marcus or Benjamin K  Their are former Playboy models and models who have appeared in W, Elle, Vogue, Town & Country to catalog models to those who have done national ads but how many are making a living from booking fashion ONLY work here.   Maybe someone knows this but how many current working models on main boards at these agencies are here.   http://models.com/agencies/top/
My understanding is most agencies don't want their models from the main boards on MM but that could be wrong.

Another question is how many models on MM make a living from fashion only booking from work found here.   Not nude but fashion only.   MM is a social networking site with some working professionals.  Its a fun place to vent and hang out but how can this site be taken serious with posts like, 'What to do when your model has gas?'   
While doing laundry today I met a female film maker.   I mentioned I shoot and went to grab a tablet to show her some of my work.   She asked me where I found my models.   I mentioned MM and she laughed.   She said she had several friends who designed clothes and they had models not show from here.

Anyway,   I am curious about my questions.   Main development board and making a living from clothes only work found on MM.

What you are giving as evidence is anecdotal, heresay do you understand? The fact a film maker laughed at mention of MM is especially moot because there are so many actors on here also modelling, not to mention numerous film makers. A designet may have had models not show but it's just as easy for a designer not to screen models properly as it us for a photographer.


However you have raised a question. I have answered it before. And listed London models from Oxygen, Elite, and Premier in the UK all with extensive credits including models I did runway with From 8, 5 had ports here. Only the very senior models - the regular Vogue and Elle models who did campaigns and catalogue work almost daily didn't. Which is not surprising. They earn mega money don't need to add their own work . There are also Elite etc models in the London sample above.

Now nobody is saying that the top.models from those agencies are there. And a lot if them don't list their agency, or have a false or shortened name. Also, you see many models signing up then after a few months they delete their port. Then you get new faces, and lots of models formerly with those top agencies.
Probably agencies don't like their models on sites like this that stands to reason.


But I will do it again with yours just to show you have a spattering.
IMG
https://m.modelmayhem.com/833503
Marilyn
https://m.modelmayhem.com/60662
New York Model Management
https://m.modelmayhem.com/427701
Elite/Factor
https://m.modelmayhem.com/752265
DNA
https://m.modelmayhem.com/3111009
Ford
https://m.modelmayhem.com/881214
https://m.modelmayhem.com/560657
Fusion
https://m.modelmayhem.com/2517600



But in any case again you talk only about high fashion modelling which is a very tiny tip of an iceberg. And there are many other icebergs that represent other economic areas.
The modelling industry is FAR from only high fashion modelling and it's erroneous to suggest it is. Because that what you aspire to you sneer at people like commercial and promotion and life and fit models but we are all economically active as models across several industries. And in higher number on MM as we are in the real world, and more likely to be after the smaller work that's offered here to boost our workloads in slack times. That's why we and they are here. We DON'T get most of our work here. We get it from agencies or fashion houses or designers boutiques ad agencies edu institutions etc. NOBODY is saying most of the work comes from here that would be absurd.

What I AM saying is that demonstrably most if the,paid castings here ARE industry and NOT nude. I've proved it with the data time and time again.


BUT ONCE MORE

Today's paid castings USA

NUDE 6
NON NUDE 19

So stating an opinion over and over that you cannot support with evidence is pointless. The data speaks for itself.


Where are all these hobbyists throwing their money around to see,women naked? Truth is they aren't. They mostly want tf. There are plenty paying of course too. But it's not the main work offered here.

Now nobody is saying that you can't make money modelling nude too.
But I've consistently found that the spattering of adult work aside there is VERY LITTLE paid nude work in the UK. And it looks a similar story on the US.  And if the castings are all done by browse, why didn't I get any requests to speak of to do paid nude work? There was me came here to do some nude shoots tf to get more life modelling work, and I got loads of offers paid from people who wanted to put me in clothes. And found castings to be the same.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

What you are giving as evidence is anecdotal, heresay do you understand? The fact a film maker laughed at mention of MM is especially moot because there are so many actors on here also modelling, not to mention numerous film makers. A designet may have had models not show but it's just as easy for a designer not to screen models properly as it us for a photographer.


However you have raised a question. I have answered it before. And listed London models from Oxygen, Elite, and Premier in the UK all with extensive credits including models I did runway with From 8, 5 had ports here. Only the very senior models - the regular Vogue and Elle models who did campaigns and catalogue work almost daily didn't. Which is not surprising. They earn mega money don't need to add their own work . There are also Elite etc models in the London sample above.

Now nobody is saying that the top.models from those agencies are there. And a lot if them don't list their agency, or have a false or shortened name. Also, you see many models signing up then after a few months they delete their port. Then you get new faces, and lots of models formerly with those top agencies.
Probably agencies don't like their models on sites like this that stands to reason.


But I will do it again with yours just to show you have a spattering.
IMG
https://m.modelmayhem.com/833503
Marilyn
https://m.modelmayhem.com/60662
New York Model Management
https://m.modelmayhem.com/427701
Elite/Factor
https://m.modelmayhem.com/752265
DNA
https://m.modelmayhem.com/3111009
Ford
https://m.modelmayhem.com/881214
https://m.modelmayhem.com/560657
Fusion
https://m.modelmayhem.com/2517600



But in any case again you talk only about high fashion modelling which is a very tiny tip of an iceberg. And there are many other icebergs that represent other economic areas.
The modelling industry is FAR from only high fashion modelling and it's erroneous to suggest it is. Because that what you aspire to you sneer at people like commercial and promotion and life and fit models but we are all economically active as models across several industries. And in higher number on MM as we are in the real world, and more likely to be after the smaller work that's offered here to boost our workloads in slack times. That's why we and they are here. We DON'T get most of our work here. We get it from agencies or fashion houses or designers boutiques ad agencies edu institutions etc. NOBODY is saying most of the work comes from here that would be absurd.

What I AM saying is that demonstrably most if the,paid castings here ARE industry and NOT nude. I've proved it with the data time and time again.


BUT ONCE MORE

Today's paid castings USA

NUDE 6
NON NUDE 19

So stating an opinion over and over that you cannot support with evidence is pointless. The data speaks for itself.


Where are all these hobbyists throwing their money around to see,women naked? Truth is they aren't. They mostly want tf. There are plenty paying of course too. But it's not the main work offered here.

Now nobody is saying that you can't make money modelling nude too.
But I've consistently found that the spattering of adult work aside there is VERY LITTLE paid nude work in the UK. And it looks a similar story on the US.  And if the castings are all done by browse, why didn't I get any requests to speak of to do paid nude work? There was me came here to do some nude shoots tf to get more life modelling work, and I got loads of offers paid from people who wanted to put me in clothes. And found castings to be the same.

With respect, Eliza its very difficult to have conversations with you because you don't answer directly.   I looked at several of the models links you provided and I can't find the models on the agencies they claim websites.   At least on the main board.   Which makes sense because as I understand it the better agencies don't want their models on sites like MM.   The point of being represented is that they book you work.   Further I asked how many models book enough clothed only work from this site to live on.   I see no evidence that any one does.   I do personally know several nude models who do well here.    However you like to debate for debates sake.   Part of my personality is the same.   What seems inconsistent in your argument is that you use MM for your data then dismiss it.

A few side points.   You listed several models who may NOT actually be currently signed with the agencies they claim.   Rather then looking at paid castings which are small in number when compared to the number of paid only models on MM consider that much of the work is arranged via a private message or when models do travel announcements.   How many clothes only models travel and are paid too shoot?   You said  that models book work  through ad agencies.   Really?   That can't be accurate because agencies like Leo Burnett use modeling and talent agencies.   If ad agencies which ones?   

Where do freelance models find all this non nude work?   Craigslist, Backpage?   What you continue to do is post links to agency signed models.   Lets hear from some of those models?   If you know some as you claim I'd love to hear from them because otherwise its as it always becomes.   The Eliza forum or Eliza vs. Tony.   That's pointless.   So if its just going to more debate between us then I'll pass.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
With respect, Eliza its very difficult to have conversations with you because you don't answer directly.   I looked at several of the models links you provided and I can't find the models on the agencies they claim websites.   At least on the main board.   Which makes sense because as I understand it the better agencies don't want their models on sites like MM.   The point of being represented is that they book you work.   Further I asked how many models book enough clothed only work from this site to live on.   I see no evidence that any one does.   I do personally know several nude models who do well here.    However you like to debate for debates sake.   Part of my personality is the same.   What seems inconsistent in your argument is that you use MM for your data then dismiss it.

A few side points.   You listed several models who may NOT actually be currently signed with the agencies they claim.   Rather then looking at paid castings which are small in number when compared to the number of paid only models on MM consider that much of the work is arranged via a private message or when models do travel announcements.   How many clothes only models travel and are paid too shoot?   You said  that models book work  through ad agencies.   Really?   That can't be accurate because agencies like Leo Burnett use modeling and talent agencies.   If ad agencies which ones?   

Where do freelance models find all this non nude work?   Craigslist, Backpage?   What you continue to do is post links to agency signed models.   Lets hear from some of those models?   If you know some as you claim I'd love to hear from them because otherwise its as it always becomes.   The Eliza forum or Eliza vs. Tony.   That's pointless.   So if its just going to more debate between us then I'll pass.

Ok here are the models I gave you.

Not all of them are on the websites now I will grant you but I provide evidence that they were , plus another MM model I found while looking for the other one. I don't have much time atm but this will have to do you for now. I think its clear they aren't lying, or weren't at the time they put their ports up.

Caiten:
http://antm411.com/catie-anderson/

Megan Ewing:
http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/mo … gan_Ewing/

As you know Marilyn just have select models up like Kate Moss Missy Rayder Naomi Campbell etc.

Megan Duggat
http://forums.thefashionspot.com/f52/me … 94019.html

NYCNYCNYC has gone to considerable lengths to avoid being identified. But at least was with factor in your town. Ask Rachel Hanlon if you know here she appears to have worked with her.

Andre is with Models 1
http://www.models1.co.uk/details.aspx?n … ;r=A&num=8

Hannah Banana I would think is a pseudonym too but
http://thriftedandmodern.com/blog/congr … ons-hannah

But whilst checking Hannah's I found Hannah Glasby on MM
http://models.fordmodels.com/models/24/talents/35768
https://www.modelmayhem.com/1075767

The last one was Fusion UK which is different apologies, but just to show she is a pro model (A Vogue published model who is also a fit model to boot)
http://www.edytawilim.com/runway
http://www.edytawilim.com/publishedwork


I also never said that the main board models were on here. You would not be the only one shocked if they were. But the fact that a number of MM girls have experience at all with these agencies shows its not just a site for pro or semi pro nude models that's what I am attacking understand?

I also NEVER EVER said that a model could make her living exclusively from MM in fact I've always maintained quite the opposite so stop making a straw man. Pro models come here to host their portfolios and use them to get work from the real world and the odd bit from you guys. I got my RA and AP gigs FROM using my port linked in my applications follow? Plus a great deal of my boutique work.

Then about 15% of my work has come direct from MM. Almost all of it from castings so I question your assertion that most of it goes under the radar. Maybe the models hustling for it, and maybe those doing adult etc. Maybe even the art nude. But as most of my direct work came from castings, and as I'm pretty low down the food chain, I would think other industry standard models have a better than 1 in 12 strike rate in castings. Indeed as I have PROVED those are getting the hundreds of looks while models don't answer pms remember?

As for the models I worked with. I don't know them, and only one is still here. It wouldn't be right for me to ask her or indeed the other models, to engage in this thread. But recall I did prove it to Stefano before.

udor wrote:
I would say MM is not much different... it is very diverse, it is more a community where "representatives" of different industries (professional) and "communities" (artist, hobbyists, models, glamour and other people who shoot in a certain field) are coming together to network.

Btw., I would say that people who work in the fashion industry and have a MM profile might be only 10-20%, probably mixing in with commercial photographers.

The vast majority of MM members are people who shoot as a hobby, with income derived from non-related professions in the field of glamour and art/art nudes and similar genres.

MM is not an industry and that's why you are being asked which industry you are referring to when you mention "the industry"...

Hope that helps.

I would have to agree!!

KMP wrote:
If you're asking if MM is not considered a modeling or fashion industry forum, I'd say not.  At least not that people would admit to. lol

There are a few working pros on here.  There are also some amazing amateur models, photographers and  MUAs.

However they are tremendously outweighed by wannabes and some delusional folks.

I'm not a fashion shooter and have never claimed to be anything of the sort.  I enjoy the site for its informative, technical forums and it is just one more tool in keeping up with what's going on in the world...even if it's not the fashion world.

Also, every so often,  I read a forum that is so outrageously stupid, it gives me a great laugh...
... I still laugh about the one where a photographer had to use his cell phone because he was too hung over and forgot his camera.

+1

Saadiq Photography wrote:
MM is a social internet site and has NOTHING to with the working business of modeling or the fashion industry as a whole!  Yes, you can find a few selective working industry professionals within this MM playground.  But, more often you'll find murky pools of wannabes, hobbyist and or those seeking to push their own senseless and or "unscientific" agenda via these threads. (pun intended)



Furthermore, its rather disingenuous to harp on unfounded and non factual industry related information as if its somehow MM fact.  Especially when the person doing the harping and or agenda baiting has no DIRECT, WORKING knowledge of such fashion and or agency representation subject matters. Yet that same person has the audacity to debate/argue as if they've been there done that.



edit: I expect the hit dog to holler.

I haven't got an agenda. But I'm the only person in this thread to have supplied any data. It's up to others to look at it, check themselves and see what they think.

I've never claimed to be agency represented. I am just saying there are hundreds of agency represented models here. I have never worked as a fashion model as such and never claimed to, But I DO get paid for modelling clothes, and I did work in a major fashion house as a model for almost two years. Mainly fit - and the brighter people here know what that pays. During that time I worked alongside models from top agencies in London doing showroom/runway. So I don't know nothing about these things either. I would actually say that probably has given me more of an insight than some into the general fashion industry. Have you worked with a top designer at least two or three days a week for that time? I doubt it.

One thing though, is I don't have bad references from ANYONE I've worked with. The same cannot be said for all.....

And I have made a living as a professional model for three years. There are people in this thread that know that.

If I'd only done fit and life modelling, its still economic activity that involved me paying rather a lot of tax.

And there's nothing more unscientific than personal attack. Ad hominem, veiled or not, is the resort of people with no argument.

I've also never said this isn't largely for wannabes and amateurs, hobbyists etc. What I've said is that there are people here from several economic areas. Its probably around 20% in primary markets. Including fashion as Udor points out. So actually be careful that you know what is being said when you attack someone before jumping in with venom. There's nothing to debate. What I will say is that I don't have the kind of contempt for hobbyists and amateurs that some here seem to. Only those who let people down; and always suggest to steer clear of the selfie ports etc.

The debate with Tony atm is just he claims the majority of paid work here is nude. Which the data available from paid castings, suggests is false. He also says there are no fashion agency models here, which is also false. Sure they disappear and change their names etc if they get signed, sure they often don't last long with a particular agency. But that's besides the point. And there are stacks of commercial agency models here. They wouldn't be here if there was no work I don't see them shooting nudes. Then promo models etc. Its simply ridiculous to say these aren't models , or don't represent economic activity just because they aren't fashion models.

But I'm certainly not saying this place is all industry that would be ridiculous. Industry people are just here to pick up the odd gig. Including you apparently.

Even if it was just 10% here that could be said to be professionals in one industry or economic area or another,   it is in the region of 85 000 people worldwide. A considerable number. Not to be spat and sneered at. Neither for that matter, are those who just do it for a hobby. The photographers keep the camera industry in business.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I haven't got an agenda. But I'm the only person in this thread to have supplied any data. It's up to others to look at it, check themselves and see what they think.

I've never claimed to be agency represented. I am just saying there are hundreds of agency represented models here. I have never worked as a fashion model as such and never claimed to, But I DO get paid for modelling clothes, and I did work in a major fashion house as a model for almost two years. Mainly fit - and the brighter people here know what that pays. During that time I worked alongside models from top agencies in London doing showroom/runway. So I don't know nothing about these things either. I would actually say that probably has given me more of an insight than some into the general fashion industry. Have you worked with a top designer at least two or three days a week for that time? I doubt it.

One thing though, is I don't have bad references from ANYONE I've worked with. The same cannot be said for all.....

And I have made a living as a professional model for three years. There are people in this thread that know that.

If I'd only done fit and life modelling, its still economic activity that involved me paying rather a lot of tax.

And there's nothing more unscientific than personal attack. Ad hominem, veiled or not, is the resort of people with no argument.

I've also never said this isn't largely for wannabes and amateurs, hobbyists etc. What I've said is that there are people here from several economic areas. Its probably around 20% in primary markets. Including fashion as Udor points out. So actually be careful that you know what is being said when you attack someone before jumping in with venom. There's nothing to debate. What I will say is that I don't have the kind of contempt for hobbyists and amateurs that some here seem to. Only those who let people down; and always suggest to steer clear of the selfie ports etc.

The debate with Tony atm is just he claims the majority of paid work here is nude. Which the data available from paid castings, suggests is false. He also says there are no fashion agency models here, which is also false. Sure they disappear and change their names etc if they get signed, sure they often don't last long with a particular agency. But that's besides the point. And there are stacks of commercial agency models here. They wouldn't be here if there was no work I don't see them shooting nudes. Then promo models etc. Its simply ridiculous to say these aren't models , or don't represent economic activity just because they aren't fashion models.

But I'm certainly not saying this place is all industry that would be ridiculous. Industry people are just here to pick up the odd gig. Including you apparently.

Even if it was just 10% here that could be said to be professionals in one industry or economic area or another,   it is in the region of 85 000 people worldwide. A considerable number. Not to be spat and sneered at. Neither for that matter, are those who just do it for a hobby. The photographers keep the camera industry in business.

I find it amusing... that you chose to comment on my open reply with what I see as a worthless unrequested defense.  Keep in mind I didn't directly address you nor your provocational comments via this thread. (others had already done so to some degree) Yet you seem offended by my open statement even though such statements are factual as it pertains to YOU by your own open admission.

So my direct question to YOU is... being that you don't have any DIRECT, FIRST HAND WORKING knowledge of such subject matters (fashion industry/agency representation) why are you still debating?!  And being that you have never been agency represented (fashion) and have never worked within the professional aspect of such industry why do YOU feel that your comments, replies and or statements are valid and or relevant as it pertains to the subject matter?!  Who appointed you the liaison to MM models?!

i.e ( I know someone that told me that a friend of a friend told them that Terry R said...)

Also, stop crying foul play or pushing the "personal attack button" in hopes of a mod life line!

Finally, I'm not interested in your dispute and or personal debate with other MM members (Tony) via this thread because it doesn't pertain to me!



edit: pushing a flawed argumentative agenda is dumb...  (anyone can share questionable MM links and or name drop in quest of swaying a few MM opinions)

Magda Kulpinska wrote:
Agencies in this day and age have a lot less work than what they used to. The girls that are working and getting the high fees (and YES, I have seen agency girls do crappy showrooms for 100eur a DAY - as a freelance you'd claim more than DOUBLE as a minimum rate, trust me...!) - these girls are pretty much top models or at the level just Under that. These are a very, very, very select few.

WHAT?!

Ahahahah, thank got I never got signed in Paris, then.

I have friends signed in both Milan and Paris and they NEVER and I say NEVER got 100€ a day for a showroom. And they are signed in "medium" agencies... not the top agencies.

And it's sad to hear the "girlfriend" thing... thank God in Portugal all the bookers are gay or married to other bookers. :p

Saadiq Photography wrote:
I find it amusing... that you chose to comment on my open reply with what I see as a worthless unrequested defense.  Keep in mind I didn't directly address you nor your provocational comments via this thread. (others had already done so to some degree) Yet you seem offended by my open statement even though such statements are factual as it pertains to YOU by your own open admission.

So my direct question to YOU is... being that you don't have any DIRECT, FIRST HAND WORKING knowledge of such subject matters (fashion industry/agency representation) why are you still debating?!  And being that you have never been agency represented (fashion) and have never worked within the professional aspect of such industry why do YOU feel that your comments, replies and or statements are valid and or relevant as it pertains to the subject matter?!  Who appointed you the liaison to MM models?!

i.e ( I know someone that told me that a friend of a friend told them that Terry R said...)

Also, stop crying foul play or pushing the "personal attack button" in hopes of a mod life line!

Finally, I'm not interested in your dispute and or personal debate with other MM members (Tony) via this thread because it doesn't pertain to me!



edit: pushing a flawed argumentative agenda is dumb...  (anyone can share questionable MM links and or name drop in quest of swaying a few MM opinions)

Model Mayhem does not just represent fashion photography. The whole point is that it represents many industries.

This thread is NOT about agency representation for fashion models if you hadn't noticed, so your ad hominem is entirely moot.

Bit I did work in the fashion industry. As a fit model party to a great deal that photographers are not. Including working with top agency represented models. So I do know something. It's pretty first hand when doing showroom and runway with them. Limited yes. But I do know what they earn. And that some if them were here. Which is the important thing in this thread. So it,qualifies me to speak when someone says there are no top agency models here. Not many maybe, but certainly some.

I can also see and show that regardless of whether MM has significant industry professionals here
or not, the vast majority of models are viewing paid castings rather than tf. Anybody who thinks otherwise is incorrect. I can also show those paid castings are mostly non nude, and mostly something that can be classed as some form of industry activity. Nobody is,saying fashion. Theres a,lot more to it than that, and it's patently obvious that certain people know far less about those areas like promo, fit, showroom, hair company, niche modelling like alt, life modelling etc than others as they have no experience of them at all!


Now. We have a fashion model here. So I will butt out and perhaps you and Tony and others will take note of what she has to say.

Abaddon Thirteen wrote:
Oh and everyone talking about supermodels... You are wrong.

Supermodels are nothing but model celebrities, mainly from the 90s or early 00s, that are HIGHLY paid for being... celebrity models.

If you consider the girls and boys doing Dior or Chanel campaigns to be supermodels, I can give you one example: I used to date a male model who did a campaign for Dior. A clothing campaign, some years ago. Although it's true than male models are paid less than female models, it's almost incredible that he... modelling for Dior... a campaign... got 10.000€ (the agency then kept 3.000€, I think). I got a hair casting for an advertising in Indonesia that paid 10.000€ for a day PLUS all the travelling expenses.

So Dior and all the other big brands pay much less than you think. It's not millions as some are saying. Unless you're Kate Moss or Linda Evangelista.

And I'm not saying MM is the fashion industry. There are lots of industries in need of models and photographers, from fashion to nude or even alternative. Even the music industry. Model Mayhem is a great way to display your work and get noticed. To improve your portfolio. Or simply to have a place to have all your work gathered. And yes, you get paid jobs here. And yes most are TF shoots.

But what if I told you most people around here don't give a f*** about the fashion industry? Some people just want to have fun.

(Not me, I want to work :p )

Cool! We have a fashion model here

Sooo basically you agreed with everyone by saying the MM is not the fashion industry. Like most people were saying, this site is more for glamour and just having fun. Just like you stated in your last sentence.

So I have a couple of questions:
1. How many of those high paying fashion jobs did you get through MM?
2. Did those companies actually do a casting on MM and find you?
3. Did the casting directors from your fashion week gig actually do a casting on MM?
4. Are your friends with the major ads on MM??
5. Were your friends contacted through MM to get those campaigns??

These are serious questions. Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to prove a point

NW Photography wrote:
Cool! We have a fashion model here

Sooo basically you agreed with everyone by saying the MM is not the fashion industry. Like most people were saying, this site is more for glamour and just having fun. Just like you stated in your last sentence.

So I have a couple of questions:
1. How many of those high paying fashion jobs did you get through MM?
2. Did those companies actually do a casting on MM and find you?
3. Did the casting directors from your fashion week gig actually do a casting on MM?
4. Are your friends with the major ads on MM??
5. Were your friends contacted through MM to get those campaigns??

These are serious questions. Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to prove a point

If you read my comments you will see that I was agency signed for the past 5 years. And those jobs were through my agency. and my friends are agency signed. So your questions are pointless since I was trying to make a point about everyone saying MM models get paid too much. And ask too much. I don't care if people think this site is crap or not. I'm just saying: I wish I could get here the money I got when signed. I won't and no model will. Truth is: most photographers around here don't give a penny to professional models. They think they ask too much even if they ask stupid rates like 20€ per hour. Although a fashion model, agency signed, don't get millions like some were saying, they don't get 100€ per job either.

This site is great to get jobs as a freelancer. And those jobs are jobs a signed model can't get. Many companies prefer freelancer models... It's cheaper. And as an agency signed model I wouldn't be able to do my alternative modelling jobs. It's fashion, it's modelling but it's considered "downgrade" to an agency. I left my agency because they didn't let me work as a freelancer, they didn't let me do alternative fashion, nor nudes, not nothing. Just big brands and fashion designers. And they are c**** who treat you like a freaking robot who is never skinny enough and they get 20% of all your earnings and sweat.

Capiche?

Modelling site: all kinds of modelling. From fashion to nude, to glamour. MM is great for alternative models. And an alternative model will never get signed with Elite. So yes, the industry (because it's a market where you trade work for money) is more than agencies. Is every single designer, model and photographer who gets money from working. Professionals.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

This is in line with what agency models I have worked with have told me. People here don't believe it.


Models may work tf now and again for select photographers but it should not be expected from pro models.

Are you saying that Abaddon Thirteen is not a pro model as she does tf.

Abaddon Thirteen wrote:

If you read my comments you will see that I was agency signed for the past 5 years. And those jobs were through my agency. and my friends are agency signed. So your questions are pointless since I was trying to make a point about everyone saying MM models get paid too much. And ask too much. I don't care if people think this site is crap or not. I'm just saying: I wish I could get here the money I got when signed. I won't and no model will. Truth is: most photographers around here don't give a penny to professional models. They think they ask too much even if they ask stupid rates like 20€ per hour. Although a fashion model, agency signed, don't get millions like some were saying, they don't get 100€ per job either.

This site is great to get jobs as a freelancer. And those jobs are jobs a signed model can't get. Many companies prefer freelancer models... It's cheaper. And as an agency signed model I wouldn't be able to do my alternative modelling jobs. It's fashion, it's modelling but it's considered "downgrade" to an agency. I left my agency because they didn't let me work as a freelancer, they didn't let me do alternative fashion, nor nudes, not nothing. Just big brands and fashion designers. And they are c**** who treat you like a freaking robot who is never skinny enough and they get 20% of all your earnings and sweat.

Capiche?

Modelling site: all kinds of modelling. From fashion to nude, to glamour. MM is great for alternative models. And an alternative model will never get signed with Elite. So yes, the industry (because it's a market where you trade work for money) is more than agencies. Is every single designer, model and photographer who gets money from working. Professionals.

Ahh. I get what your saying. You have to realize that most photographers on MM are not doing photography full-time. They are just regular people who take photos for FUN. For some photographers, when a model has rates; of course they are gonna complain! Paying a model literally comes out of their pockets. They don’t have clients that are paying the budget. If they do pay a model, they seem to only shoot nudes. That’s what it seems like MM is mostly about.

I do happen to agree with you on alternative modeling. This site seems to be good for that field. I have no interest about that field. So, I can’t comment on that.