Herman Surkis wrote:
Eliza is really not that bad.
She agreed to TF with me, years ago.
Unfortunately one of the stipulations was that I had to fly her out to me in Victoria, and give her a champagne dinner at the Empress Hotel. (at least she did not insist on flying first class)
After some negotiating back and forth, the deal fell through due to budget constraints.

You flaked!

Fire Ice Photography wrote:
Model Mayhem is a joke!! There are a handful of top quality professional photographers and a sprinkling of top professional models but the vast majority are "wanna be's" from GWC's pretending to be professionals and models that think that just because someone in there hometown thought they were pretty, think they can make it as a model in a field that is saturated with "wanna be's". There are very few exceptional photographers on this site that have a vision beyond the "pretty girl against a brick wall" canned image. I do not consider myself a professional nor a GWC, I am just a serious hobbyist that is trying to find a personal style that is uniquely mine and not something that is copied from someone else. I see a lot of exploitation on this site by GWC's feeding these "aspiring" model's dreams of having a career. Model Mayhem as an industry...maybe for the people that own the site!! Anyway that is my 2 cents.

And I think you're wrong. This is an inspirational site if you know where to look.

Fire Ice Photography wrote:
Model Mayhem is a joke!! There are a handful of top quality professional photographers and a sprinkling of top professional models but the vast majority are "wanna be's" from GWC's pretending to be professionals and models that think that just because someone in there hometown thought they were pretty, think they can make it as a model in a field that is saturated with "wanna be's". There are very few exceptional photographers on this site that have a vision beyond the "pretty girl against a brick wall" canned image. I do not consider myself a professional nor a GWC, I am just a serious hobbyist that is trying to find a personal style that is uniquely mine and not something that is copied from someone else. I see a lot of exploitation on this site by GWC's feeding these "aspiring" model's dreams of having a career. Model Mayhem as an industry...maybe for the people that own the site!! Anyway that is my 2 cents.

It's the same on every site I know of, not just MM. They are marketed as essentially professional in order to attract models in the first place.
If they were marketed as networking sites where people could get into the equivalent of amateur dramatics it would be closer to the truth but the appeal would be substantially less.
At least I suppose that would be the case. Photographers have fewer illusions about their capabilities, or at least their potential, than models (though not by much), so they would likely be happier about the am dram label. What would be in it for the would be model, though?

You can see the marketing pitch: join The Model Players and get some nice pictures taken by a bloke called Sid. And Dave, Ralph and then Victor. Andy is quite good too, but he has a severe personality disorder, so maybe not unless you are not easily spooked.

Yan Tan Tethera wrote:
And I think you're wrong. This is an inspirational site if you know where to look.

Depends what inspires you.

Don't get me wrong - there really are very good people on both sides of the lens. But that does not apply to the bulk of the membership. As I said, it's not just an MM thing.

WIP wrote:
It's about people talking about Model Mayhem with a lot of time on their hands.

Why do you have all this free time?   

WIP wrote:
Because I need a distraction from processing images and it's cooler then hanging out with Vince Vaughn on a 5 day bender.

Similar with me. I do it because data does my head in after a few hours but need to get back on with it after a break so no time to go out. And sometimes I learn stuff here, have interesting conversations etc. So understand. I think I can probably type much faster than you guys though

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
You flaked!

You do not flake on Eliza, and survive.

Project cancelled due to investor difficulties ( I could not afford the airfare).

Tony Lawrence wrote:
A member has said MM is about money if so, show me the money as they say.   Their isn't any real money for models beyond art and explicit nudes.   Their isn't any money for photographers beyond a very select few here.   Retouchers, MUA and others can make some cash.   I understand some who try and paint MM as a place to park photos for clients to see and hire from.   How can they when many here post inaccurate measurements and feature images so Photoshopped and altered that in many cases its almost impossible to recognize the model who shows for the casting or work.   Often times photos are years old.   Models of every kind should always have up to date images.   

Again... MM is a fun way to network.   Its a wonderful place for hobbyists to hire amateur models or do TF.   It is NOT a place any serious photographer who is booking models for a paying client should consider.   It is NOT a place to try and book models from and pay if the plan is to show your book to new paying clients.   It is NOT a place to try and book models and in some cases MUA for high level test shoots.   MM is not about any industry besides internet modeling.

Almost completely agree with Tony.
If you add in Eliza's perspective from a major market, then you start finding a balance.

As other models and photographers have stated over and over again on many, many other threads, except for several limited major markets, Tony is pretty much on the mark.

And MM is also a place for photographers who shoot for fun to meet models who like to model for fun. Model I shot today is a prime example. She has been doing it for 10 years. Is more experienced than many signed models I have worked with.
Actually often had the pose nailed before I could finish giving my directions. However she simply does not have the look nor stats for most agency work. In another market she could make coin as a fit and commercial model. Now to be fair she likely makes more money modelling than I do selling in any of the local galleries.

Did I happen to mention that she dared to be...15 minutes early. OMG, can't trust anybody anymore.

And what are people fighting about?

Herman Surkis wrote:
Almost completely agree with Tony.
If you add in Eliza's perspective from a major market, then you start finding a balance.

As other models and photographers have stated over and over again on many, many other threads, except for several limited major markets, Tony is pretty much on the mark.

And MM is also a place for photographers who shoot for fun to meet models who like to model for fun. Model I shot today is a prime example. She has been doing it for 10 years. Is more experienced than many signed models I have worked with.
Actually often had the pose nailed before I could finish giving my directions. However she simply does not have the look nor stats for most agency work. In another market she could make coin as a fit and commercial model. Now to be fair she likely makes more money modelling than I do selling in any of the local galleries.

Did I happen to mention that she dared to be...15 minutes early. OMG, can't trust anybody anymore.

And what are people fighting about?

I'm only interested in evidence and the way things are not the way people would like things to be.


Tony steps on and says show me the money just after I listed a typical days castings. Actual DATA. There are seldom more than 25% nude. There are only a small number of hobbyist photographers offering paid castings too. Same kind of percentage.
65%-75% nearly always coming from third parties, or via photographers and third parties, or via stylists muas etc.


The models hits on those VASTLY outnumber tf views

So Tony is not right is he?

About nude. I did nude for 3 years here theres barely a paying job.
It may be different stateside, but here nudity isnt in short supply. If you are fine with posing nude you can make a healthy living at it at art schools etc.


As we have also heard many times before from many photographers,
'why don't models respond to emails?"

We've had all sorts of ridiculous suggestions. Models testimony is never listened to.
The fact actually is we are selective, and are generally interested if we are experienced, in paid work. As unpaid work offered tends to often be from amateur photographers wanting to shoot adult, when one rejects them they become extremely rude. To the point where I certainly, not here but on a UK model site, stopped opening them. I use my port here to answer the paid castings and to apply for castings off site. Most models using this site effectively are doing that. Even if we are only 20% of the models here, we are the active ones. Again those models ineffective at using the site lose interest and don't log in for years.

You want to see what MM is about rather than what you'd like it to be about check paid castings, and bear in mind those are only a fraction of model castings and employers elsewhere for which it's good to have an online port.

MM is many things to many people. But if you can't get it to work for you do not sneer at models who do because of false expectations. The industry of course may be Dove Soap and Vogue at the top, but it's also lifestyle mags, boutique ads, sofa company and travel poster commercial ads, hair shows, fit and showroom modelling, event and promo/trade fair modelling, hostessing, modelling at art and edu establishments and artists, (from Royal Academy to St Martins to comic book artists), grid girl modelling, glamour, fetish, niche modelling like alt and bridal, etc etc etc.
Many midels here are able to promote themselves here successfully for those kinds of work. Now and again they nay be up for a tf shoot. But don't expect it and don't moan about models,here because we are busy actually doing paid work. Paid journeyman modelling.


Models do not practice for years to hone their craft as photographers do. We are a short term career, and we often hit the ground running. We aren't generally about Artistic vision. We just facilitate that sometimes but are equally happy promoting cosmetics or motorcycles.So don't give us the you should do it for art shit. That's your thing not ours; although I never had an actual artist moan about paying (nor a pro photographer ) and in any case what is actually occurring often is developing a craft not artistic vision. Those that don't understand that know nothing about professional modelling. And it never ceases to amaze me that the many pro and semi pro models who make their living or part living at this that testify to this effect are continually ignored.


I'm getting sick to the back teeth of models being put down for being mercenary. This is our job. How dare you guys insult people doing their job paying taxes etc. If you can find models who do it for fun thats great fuck off and get them and leave us alone to mop up the industry work and work from photographers realising that if they want pro reliable models they are in a marketplace with many other employers of our services. But that's not what's happening. We keep hearing time and time again about your failures to engage pro models here. Dont respond to the insulting emails etc, do they? Yes it's an insult to ask a pro model to work free unless you have something like a real editorial with actual wardrobe. So you go for the selfie port girls and they let you down.Or you go to bus stops, end up giving away your photo services to women that may actually pay for them, and often it's those who become those selfie port with one pro shoot monsters.

So the data is there for all to see just look at views under paid castings compared to tf views wise.
The pro and semi pro models here are working across many industries, or specialising in niches in a variety of industries. In the process of getting that work, be it an agency or freelance model looking for extra, it's useful to have an online portfolio. The views on paid castings support this observation. The views on tf castings refute the claim that models here are seeking tf with hobbyists. So the question asked about the modelling industry. While there isn't such a thing because it's cross industry, it's clear most models here arent interested in working the hobby side of things unless you get real and offer pay.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

MM is many things to many people.

It's brilliant entertainments and people's BS, it's better than TV.

Herman Surkis wrote:
152 Paid castings male and female models

For ALL of Canada.

1508 for ALL USA.
And 6950 Paid only, very experienced models.

Make what you will.

Canada Total model castings 577
Paid 152
So around 25% which is higher than what I suggested.

Views lets pick just five

1. 1103 views promo for energy drink $300
2. 183 views Toronto fashion week $tbc
3. 54 views tv bikini models $200
4. Riotfest promo $100 plus perks eg entry 97 views
5. Cosmetics campaign $tbh 92 views


I also note a moderate photographer offering small money for nude has only got 5 views.



Now TF

1. Editiorial fashion shoot 37 views
2. Port shoot 4 views
3. Tf with experienced photographer/production company 24 views
4. Adult no boundaries 13 views
5. Port dev shoot 12 views


I note also having accidentally left the 'all' on at first theres one casting tf FOR a magazine for a photographer and only fifty have viewed it so so much for you guys interest in doing something 'industry' or for the love of photography.


But there ya go. Of the tf jobs, wheres the interest? The editorial one, which I've also said before. Up the ante if you want models tf.your competition does.


USA 1505 paid castings for models. tf 3765 . That's much higher than 25%.
From total of 1761 overall paid castings so there's far more industry work for models than other people.


UK 197 paid model castings. From a total of 281 paid castings overall. Total 979. So around 20% paid for models.


Bear in mind too that a fairly high ratio of tf castings and certainly those with the higher views -  - around 1 in 4 - certainly look like industry castings rather than hobbyist.


OK let's look at some other stats. I normally do London because there are a lot of models I know. I have done Chicago and St Louis and a few other places before.

But I will do British Columbia as its you Herman. 302 models come up as very experienced. That's 10% of the total. Of the first forty of these, 21 have extensive industry experienced across a variety of areas. Fashion promo glamour art and commercial credits; or work in related field eg acting. A handful within that may veer toward adult fetish etc. And a handful nude. They make up another 9 .
10 may be questionable because they haven't listed credits or experience but seem to have at least some good pics. I see only four one may question their claim. So 75% of these models at least have extensive  industry credits and at least some great pics. I've found you some that are even open to do tf for the right photographer you could give them a go if interested I will email.
Its a similar story with experienced models. I'd say almost half can actually say to have some industry experience. There are 1059 in this section. 
So that's say 400 plus approx. 200 from very experienced section being conservative.

When it comes down to some experience and no experience it becomes harder. But that's obvious by their own admission. There are the odd few that undervalue themselves in this respect. These make up just over fifty percent of the total. Only about 15% of those appear to have some industry experience. So lets say 250 of them.

So a conservative estimate of models in your are Herman with industry experience is 850 models from 3000. That's over 20%.

Now what is noticeable, is that only 10% are strictly paid assignments only, though 30% of very experienced models specify it. So its not like models are totally against tf. But two thirds of models list 'depends on assignment' . Now what that means I can tell you, is if you are offering brilliant port images, or have high artistic or editorial objectives, then you may get them IF they are free. Even newbie models should be looking to work with decent photographers. But the very experienced ones, you are going to have to up the ante to get them.

There is one particular model in your area Herman, that if I was a photographer, wouldn't rest until she was in my port. If I had to pay her, or get my act together to source designers to work on an editorial, I'd do it. I'm going to send you her. Naturally we shouldn't talk about her in public, but you tell me if you have approached her. This is an industry model. There are many, but this one stands out.

Just to conclude, as I have always maintained, whatever area you look at about 20% of models here are working or have worked professionally or semi professionally across several genres. Just because some of you dismiss these models because they don't do tf, does not mean they are not here.

The Grand Artist wrote:
Just curious because people keep asking what industry when people say the industry on a site called Model Mayhem. Next you are going to tell me a company called Apple is not a grower of apples.

No idea why this bothers you.

There are industry people here, just like there are industry people on Instagram, FB, Twitter and your local Beverly Hills coffee shop.

Herman Surkis wrote:
152 Paid castings male and female models
For ALL of Canada.

1508 Paid Castings for ALL USA.
And 6950 Paid only, very experienced models.

UK
925 Paid only, very experienced models.
And 194 Paid castings

Make what you will.

Exactly.... 1508 paid castings for the entire USA and 6950 pay only models.   As I continue to say the models who work from these sites are the nude ones.   They are being contacted by photographers via a PM or the models do a traveling notice.   In fact I have NEVER been asked by a clothes only traveling model to shoot.   All of this would be just academic if not for it helps produce.   Models who believe at 5'5" that they can be signed and who invest sometimes thousands for useless fashion photos.   Some come to sites like MM and really believe they can be fit models in Kansas or fashion models in NY at 5'5".   After all she read where Suzy has a friend who makes $10,000 a month as a freelance model.   Yet, Suzy never actually shows photos of this friend.

How could a serious client began to  book models from sites like this where models list their ages over 100 and have inaccurate measurements.   Several weeks ago I wanted to book a model for some of the small paid fashion work I have.   After days of running around trying to get a model here to respond and her not returning the calls to myself or the designer I gave up.   Just imagine someone with less time or patience trying to deal with that bs.   Its hard for fashion & commercial agencies to get their models work.   It has too be that much harder for freelance non nude models.   People tend to want to do live castings in the real world.   How many MM models want to do that.   All that said.   I get it.   Models want to be paid.   Tim made several great points as have you.   Its hobbyists here who pay and its usually for nude work.   I doubt their are twenty five full time non nude models here site wide who make a living from sites like these.

Despite members who claim to have made thousands a day doing fashion only from this site.   I'm also the King of Ghana.   That's about as believable.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Exactly.... 1508 paid castings for the entire USA and 6950 pay only models.   As I continue to say the models who work from these sites are the nude ones.   They are being contacted by photographers via a PM or the models do a traveling notice.   In fact I have NEVER been asked by a clothes only traveling model to shoot.   All of this would be just academic if not for it helps produce.   Models who believe at 5'5" that they can be signed and who invest sometimes thousands for useless fashion photos.   Some come to sites like MM and really believe they can be fit models in Kansas or fashion models in NY at 5'5".   After all she read where Suzy has a friend who makes $10,000 a month as a freelance model.   Yet, Suzy never actually shows photos of this friend.

How could a serious client began to  book models from sites like this where models list their ages over 100 and have inaccurate measurements.   Several weeks ago I wanted to book a model for some of the small paid fashion work I have.   After days of running around trying to get a model here to respond and her not returning the calls to myself or the designer I gave up.   Just imagine someone with less time or patience trying to deal with that bs.   Its hard for fashion & commercial agencies to get their models work.   It has too be that much harder for freelance non nude models.   People tend to want to do live castings in the real world.   How many MM models want to do that.   All that said.   I get it.   Models want to be paid.   Tim made several great points as have you.   Its hobbyists here who pay and its usually for nude work.   I doubt their are twenty five full time non nude models here site wide who make a living from sites like these.

Despite members who claim to have made thousands a day doing fashion only from this site.   I'm also the King of Ghana.   That's about as believable.

I've always said you have to be on a primary market. That's obvious. You have yo go where the work is.

Now as I've said, pro models here are going to be competing for the paid gigs, and MM us just extra. Few pro models make the bulk of their living from it.

I've found it one in twelve strike rate applications for castings. 24 a month gave me two paying gigs a month in addition to my fit work and my art work and the commercial, showroom and boutique ads I got via those contacts. But I got those through being able to show what I do on my online port.

Nobody is suggesting pro models make their living entirely from here. But there are almost a thousand pro and semi pro models just on London on this site. Of course you don't include life drawing models and fit and showroom models and promo models and niche models like alt bridal etc in your definition of what makes a model but we pay tax and work across the industries or specialise in one.


Now if you think you can attract pro models with tf be my guest carry on. The evidence shows the odds are massively against you. We aren't reliant on photographers here and in many cases will only work with then if there's a third party client a tear on the offing or you happen to catch one who needs a new update. Otherwise carry on with the wannabes and flakes. Because we don't have problems getting paid work. And a look at the paid castings shows there are plenty of industry jobs. And if I could get a couple a month with minimal effort and not industry standard the agency girls on here certainly will.


Models here represent many areas of work. We don't do exclusively photography unless we are in an elite or specialise in nude and travel re the USA yes. But that's a very very narrow minded view of modelling. And in any case there are many models in this very forum who don't do nude, and do fashion and commercial and make a living. But you've ignored their testimony before.


I have also demonstrated NUMEROUS times including in this thread that the majority of paid castings are not nude and not from hobbyists. Your statement us therefore demonstrably fallacious. Hobbyists are the very ones who don't like paying and think we should do it for love. Yes we get it. That's why half of us don't even reply to emails. They get arsey.

It may appear that MM is full of amateur models if you exclude the semi and full time professionals from your searches, or get bemused when they don't answer so imagine they aren't real etc,  yes. That's up to you.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I've always said you have to be on a primary market. That's obvious. You have yo go where the work is.

Now as I've said, pro models here are going to be competing for the paid gigs, and MM us just extra. Few pro models make the bulk of their living from it.

I've found it one in twelve strike rate applications for castings. 24 a month gave me two paying gigs a month in addition to my fit work and my art work and the commercial, showroom and boutique ads I got via those contacts. But I got those through being able to show what I do on my online port.

Nobody is suggesting pro models make their living entirely from here. But there are almost a thousand pro and semi pro models just on London on this site. Of course you don't include life drawing models and fit and showroom models and promo models and niche models like alt bridal etc in your definition of what makes a model but we pay tax and work across the industries or specialise in one.


Now if you think you can attract pro models with tf be my guest carry on. The evidence shows the odds are massively against you. We aren't reliant on photographers here and in many cases will only work with then if there's a third party client a tear on the offing or you happen to catch one who needs a new update. Otherwise carry on with the wannabes and flakes. Because we don't have problems getting paid work. And a look at the paid castings shows there are plenty of industry jobs. And if I could get a couple a month with minimal effort and not industry standard the agency girls on here certainly will.


Models here represent many areas of work. We don't do exclusively photography unless we are in an elite or specialise in nude and travel re the USA yes. But that's a very very narrow minded view of modelling. And in any case there are many models in this very forum who don't do nude, and do fashion and commercial and make a living. But you've ignored their testimony before.


I have also demonstrated NUMEROUS times including in this thread that the majority of paid castings are not nude and not from hobbyists. Your statement us therefore demonstrably fallacious. Hobbyists are the very ones who don't like paying and think we should do it for love. Yes we get it. That's why half of us don't even reply to emails. They get arsey.

It may appear that MM is full of amateur models if you exclude the semi and full time professionals from your searches, or get bemused when they don't answer so imagine they aren't real etc,  yes. That's up to you.

I think there's some confusion here. I've never tried to book an obviously professional model for tf. That is for three reasons:

1. I have nothing she wants except cash.

2. Beyond a certain point a model just does not need any more photographs except to refresh her book, and she should be doing that with someone who can give her photographs that are useful.

3. Models tend to get images as well as cash now anyway. Even if it's only one or two from a shoot, that's more than enough to keep things ticking over.

I've booked a couple of professional models. In fact, I booked one who works all over Europe (or did) a few weeks after picking up a camera because she was offering a last minute deal and it was too good an opportunity to miss. If I saw the deal again, I'd probably book her again, for all that I generally think it's a waste of money - because she was just so good. It would never occur to me to ask her for trade.

However, against that, for every model like her there are 100 who proclaim themselves professional, or semi professional, and who are simply deluded. They are no more going to shoot for the Littlewoods catalogue than I am going to shoot for Vogue. But nobody has told them, because nobody wants to stop those knickers hitting the floor.
Asking them for trade may well be n insult, but that's only because they have a ludicrously high opinion of themselves.

Tim Griffiths wrote:
I think there's some confusion here. I've never tried to book an obviously professional model for tf. That is for three reasons:

1. I have nothing she wants except cash.

2. Beyond a certain point a model just does not need any more photographs except to refresh her book, and she should be doing that with someone who can give her photographs that are useful.

3. Models tend to get images as well as cash now anyway. Even if it's only one or two from a shoot, that's more than enough to keep things ticking over.

I've booked a couple of professional models. In fact, I booked one who works all over Europe (or did) a few weeks after picking up a camera because she was offering a last minute deal and it was too good an opportunity to miss. If I saw the deal again, I'd probably book her again, for all that I generally think it's a waste of money - because she was just so good. It would never occur to me to ask her for trade.

However, against that, for every model like her there are 100 who proclaim themselves professional, or semi professional, and who are simply deluded. They are no more going to shoot for the Littlewoods catalogue than I am going to shoot for Vogue. But nobody has told them, because nobody wants to stop those knickers hitting the floor.
Asking them for trade may well be n insult, but that's only because they have a ludicrously high opinion of themselves.

The problem is that many amateur photographers think that because a model isn't going to shoot a Littlewoods catalogue or appear in Vogue she isn't a professional. So they DO approach us and it IS an insult. Because £40 or tf is an insult to a life model fit model or promo model who can bag £100-£300 a day doing journeyman stuff. Nothing grand about it. But it's a living.


So we get the "who do you think you are?" not because we think we are going to shoot Littlewoods catalogues but because we are working journeyman modelling circuits. In primary markets (and lets face it it's easy for a Cheltenham model to work London and I know a few who do). So it's not that we are dreaming of something big we ARE doing journeyman stuff. Stuff that there's a market for - you guys just often don't realise how vast and varied that market is or that actually it can pay decent money.


Look it's exactly the same as someone saying to you guys
" hey who do you think you are charging that kinda money you aren't going to be shooting Vogue" when you charge a couple k for a wedding or something. Well firstly why are they contacting you to do a job if they don't value you, and secondly how dare they put you down for doing journeyman stuff.

KA Style wrote:

My point was set realistic expectations for a social site such as this. That is what MM is, social. Ive worked as a model, mua and the photographer. I know how it rolls and I know how its changed here over the years. Castings are down compared to years back, Ive been running castings since 2005, forums are slow, etc, etc.

Most models I personally know do have a website. They dont really use MM for professional works, the send their pro site.

Hi,
I'm not a professional working model yet and am using this site in order to meet people and gain experience of modeling as well as to build up a portfolio and ability.

Maybe the reason we are here is different for many of us but, am I using it as an industry site? Not really but I am using the social aspect of it to participate in the industry. Sort of.
JenB

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I've always said you have to be on a primary market. That's obvious. You have yo go where the work is.

Now as I've said, pro models here are going to be competing for the paid gigs, and MM us just extra. Few pro models make the bulk of their living from it.

I've found it one in twelve strike rate applications for castings. 24 a month gave me two paying gigs a month in addition to my fit work and my art work and the commercial, showroom and boutique ads I got via those contacts. But I got those through being able to show what I do on my online port.

Nobody is suggesting pro models make their living entirely from here. But there are almost a thousand pro and semi pro models just on London on this site. Of course you don't include life drawing models and fit and showroom models and promo models and niche models like alt bridal etc in your definition of what makes a model but we pay tax and work across the industries or specialise in one.


Now if you think you can attract pro models with tf be my guest carry on. The evidence shows the odds are massively against you. We aren't reliant on photographers here and in many cases will only work with then if there's a third party client a tear on the offing or you happen to catch one who needs a new update. Otherwise carry on with the wannabes and flakes. Because we don't have problems getting paid work. And a look at the paid castings shows there are plenty of industry jobs. And if I could get a couple a month with minimal effort and not industry standard the agency girls on here certainly will.


Models here represent many areas of work. We don't do exclusively photography unless we are in an elite or specialise in nude and travel re the USA yes. But that's a very very narrow minded view of modelling. And in any case there are many models in this very forum who don't do nude, and do fashion and commercial and make a living. But you've ignored their testimony before.


I have also demonstrated NUMEROUS times including in this thread that the majority of paid castings are not nude and not from hobbyists. Your statement us therefore demonstrably fallacious. Hobbyists are the very ones who don't like paying and think we should do it for love. Yes we get it. That's why half of us don't even reply to emails. They get arsey.

It may appear that MM is full of amateur models if you exclude the semi and full time professionals from your searches, or get bemused when they don't answer so imagine they aren't real etc,  yes. That's up to you.

I have and still do shoot working pro models.   Some from Factor and BMG and I'm a hack.   So anybody good can.   This ideal that you put forward that photographers can't get pro models for tests is absolute BULLSHIT.
This pay me because I'm pretty attitude mostly exists here.  I shot a very nice girl who is on my Facebook page who told me she models because she enjoys being photographed and she has a job and she added I don't want to be forced into doing shots I'm not comfortable with because I don't have any money.


Ever wonder why its primarily you making the claims you do?   Where are all the other clothes only models?   Where are all the models making a living from this site?   Why do so many models stop signing in after a few weeks or months?    I get that you want to push the notion that MM is a professional site and their are lots of paid fashion or commercial jobs here but the simple fact is their aren't but like Don Quixote you continue the good fight.   I admire that I guess and on that note rather then start another of our infamous battles which close threads and are a disruption I'll not respond to you anymore.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

The problem is that many amateur photographers think that because a model isn't going to shoot a Littlewoods catalogue or appear in Vogue she isn't a professional. So they DO approach us and it IS an insult. Because £40 or tf is an insult to a life model fit model or promo model who can bag £100-£300 a day doing journeyman stuff. Nothing grand about it. But it's a living.


So we get the "who do you think you are?" not because we think we are going to shoot Littlewoods catalogues but because we are working journeyman modelling circuits. In primary markets (and lets face it it's easy for a Cheltenham model to work London and I know a few who do). So it's not that we are dreaming of something big we ARE doing journeyman stuff. Stuff that there's a market for - you guys just often don't realise how vast and varied that market is or that actually it can pay decent money.


Look it's exactly the same as someone saying to you guys
" hey who do you think you are charging that kinda money you aren't going to be shooting Vogue" when you charge a couple k for a wedding or something. Well firstly why are they contacting you to do a job if they don't value you, and secondly how dare they put you down for doing journeyman stuff.

We all get our noses put of joint. It's just ego. Photographers go through different phases. If you get beyond "Wow! Tits! Lord, let me live long enough to get this lens cap off/" you start to develop a bit of an eye, and suddenly you are beyond shit. The more you look at what is possible, the worse it gets. I've stared for an age at a Man Ray print and been absolutely mystified by what makes it so, so good. The last exhibition I went to was Erwin Blumenfeld at Somerset House, and there was refined talent and mastery of technique in stupid amounts.
And then you look at at a supposedly professional model's port (or photographer, come to that) and it's fucking awful. That doesn't matter, but it's accompanied by the sort of self promotion that would shame a Hollywood A lister. It's ludicrous.
I don't bother asking for tf. Never really did much. There's not a lot of point when it's some kind of terrible insult to suggest to a model that it might be a laugh to
get this or that going. I've enjoyed working with most of the models I have worked with, but exposure to so much brittle egoism has put me right off. Even the tf castings you do see from someone who might be interesting to shoot contain demands for MUA this, stylist that, and all I think it: for fuck's sake, who the hell do you think I am, and who the hell do you think you are?

Tim Griffiths wrote:

I think there's some confusion here. I've never tried to book an obviously professional model for tf. That is for three reasons:

1. I have nothing she wants except cash.

2. Beyond a certain point a model just does not need any more photographs except to refresh her book, and she should be doing that with someone who can give her photographs that are useful.

3. Models tend to get images as well as cash now anyway. Even if it's only one or two from a shoot, that's more than enough to keep things ticking over.

I've booked a couple of professional models. In fact, I booked one who works all over Europe (or did) a few weeks after picking up a camera because she was offering a last minute deal and it was too good an opportunity to miss. If I saw the deal again, I'd probably book her again, for all that I generally think it's a waste of money - because she was just so good. It would never occur to me to ask her for trade.

However, against that, for every model like her there are 100 who proclaim themselves professional, or semi professional, and who are simply deluded. They are no more going to shoot for the Littlewoods catalogue than I am going to shoot for Vogue. But nobody has told them, because nobody wants to stop those knickers hitting the floor.
Asking them for trade may well be n insult, but that's only because they have a ludicrously high opinion of themselves.

Tim, you are preaching to the converted.
And those who are not converted, well it is a waste of time.

And I agree with your comment about the better pro models. As a hobbyist I do not see the point of paying. And as yourself I have little to offer a pro model other than money. I have been paid as often as I have paid, which is not very often. I fact I am often surprised when a pro accepts my offer to trade, or stranger still asks me to trade.

Herman Surkis wrote:
Some people here are locked into a concept and cannot see another point of view.

The vast majority of people on MM are hobbyists (photographers and models), or deluded wannabees (photographers and models).

There is a sprinkling of (percentage wise) actual pros. And some of the pros are not pros in what they come to MM. As an example some photographers here make big money shooting product, and like to shoot models for fun time. Some pro models may be high fashion, and come here to shoot arty stuff, or they may be 'parts models' but figure the rest of them ain't too shabby. 

Some come to network with pros in other fields. Looking for a stylist, MUA etc.

And as far as journeyman whatever.
Why would I pay to photograph a Chevy or Fiat? Even though both are very competent at getting me from point A to point B. But I will pay to photograph a Ferrari or a mint MG A. In the real world there are many types of models. In the real world there are many types of Photographers. I cannot imagine Vogue/Testino searching out a fit model for a cover. I also cannot imagine an Haute model searching out the best product photographer to improve her portfolio.

Horses for courses.

Now it bears repeating.
We mostly agree that, and we mostly constantly seem to forget that...

If I benefit you more than you benefit me, then you pay me.
If you benefit me more than I benefit you, then I pay you.
And if we are relatively equal, then perhaps trade.

It works like that to an extent but here's the deal. I may only be a fiat, but have worked direct from MM ,  twice with a photographer with Vogue and big campaign credits, and once with a photographer with Tatler credits, and three times with current Vogue wardrobe for smaller magazines.  I have worked with stylists who regularly do Vogue and other big mags.  They are ALL better than me but I haven't paid any of them and in some cases been paid somewhere along the line. Even expenses can be better than what hobbyists offer.  Then I get a hobbyist photographer who doesnt get why I wont give up a grands worth of fit work to shoot for fun and is rude to me.
I don't quite ever get why that happens since why ask me to shoot if you don't think I'm worth anything? I don't want to work with anyone who doesn't value what I do. Pro photographers never complain. In fact ALL have said my rates reasonable.

I am sure from talking to other models they share similar experiences.

I imagine photographers get it too from wannabe models. So the truth Herman isn't in your latter equations. It's also to do with WHO does the asking. I've never asked anybody. It's photographers chasing models not so much vice versa.

If the reverse were true you'd have hundreds of paid castings from models asking for photographers. But you don't.


The truth is that as I have shown with data 20% of models here have at least regular part time industry work ,  and 65% of paid castings are industry, and a fair proportion of tf too. Less than 20% of paid castings offer nudity. Now just because you don't value promo life modelling or fit and showroom, doesn't mean that other photographers are the same. I have cited in other threads ay least twenty models here who get regular fit work as well as other industry work including commercial campaigns, fashion editorials etc. They are NOT two different animals. Same is true with promo. Kate Eaton, Victoria Elle and Kelly Kickham, are just three pro models here in forums have also testified to this. So who knows best? You guys who shoot for fun or four industry professionals?


So to add to your last points. If you are asking me to work expect to pay unless you are offering editorial or high production value. And even then I am going to be more inclined to do it with photographers who've given me a dozen paid jobs in the past. I'm loyal like that. So if you are doing the chasing expect to pay or have something cool to offer other than more photos. Because enough photographers give us pics plus pay.

Tim Griffiths wrote:

We all get our noses put of joint. It's just ego. Photographers go through different phases. If you get beyond "Wow! Tits! Lord, let me live long enough to get this lens cap off/" you start to develop a bit of an eye, and suddenly you are beyond shit. The more you look at what is possible, the worse it gets. I've stared for an age at a Man Ray print and been absolutely mystified by what makes it so, so good. The last exhibition I went to was Erwin Blumenfeld at Somerset House, and there was refined talent and mastery of technique in stupid amounts.
And then you look at at a supposedly professional model's port (or photographer, come to that) and it's fucking awful. That doesn't matter, but it's accompanied by the sort of self promotion that would shame a Hollywood A lister. It's ludicrous.
I don't bother asking for tf. Never really did much. There's not a lot of point when it's some kind of terrible insult to suggest to a model that it might be a laugh to
get this or that going. I've enjoyed working with most of the models I have worked with, but exposure to so much brittle egoism has put me right off. Even the tf castings you do see from someone who might be interesting to shoot contain demands for MUA this, stylist that, and all I think it: for fuck's sake, who the hell do you think I am, and who the hell do you think you are?

It's normal for working pros to earn decent money and get  stylists and muas. If there's no pay, then it's honest to say ok I will do tf but I wanna decent team. That's not egoism. That's if I'm giving up a days work, or possibly a few days, to shoot tf it's got to be worth it. I've never demanded that but have certainly accepted that plus some financial reward

I've seen the reverse - photographers demanding I work tf, being abusive when I say no, and their ports are weak as dishwater.

I think you should ask for references if in doubt or you get the wrong impression. Divas don't have many.

Smedley Whiplash wrote:
Now that Soapbox is gone, the Mayhem part doesn't make sense. 

I recommend calling it DayOldOatmeal.com now. 

True. they should rename the site to "Model Nothingtoseeherepleasedon'tblockthesidwalk".

MB JenB wrote:

Hi,
I'm not a professional working model yet and am using this site in order to meet people and gain experience of modeling as well as to build up a portfolio and ability.

Maybe the reason we are here is different for many of us but, am I using it as an industry site? Not really but I am using the social aspect of it to participate in the industry. Sort of.
JenB

This is a social site for people interested in modeling and model photography. Big modeling agencies would be idiots if they didn't use this site for scouting for talent. So, no, this is not an industry site but, yes, it is a public place where you can get noticed. If you have what happens to sell at the right moment.

Fotticelli wrote:

This is a social site for people interested in modeling and model photography. Big modeling agencies would be idiots if they didn't use this site for scouting for talent. So, no, this is not an industry site but, yes, it is a public place where you can get noticed. If you have what happens to sell at the right moment.

+!

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
It works like that to an extent but here's the deal. I may only be a fiat, but have worked direct from MM ,  twice with a photographer with Vogue and big campaign credits, and once with a photographer with Tatler credits, and three times with current Vogue wardrobe for smaller magazines.  I have worked with stylists who regularly do Vogue and other big mags.  They are ALL better than me but I haven't paid any of them and in some cases been paid somewhere along the line. Even expenses can be better than what hobbyists offer.  Then I get a hobbyist photographer who doesnt get why I wont give up a grands worth of fit work to shoot for fun and is rude to me.
I don't quite ever get why that happens since why ask me to shoot if you don't think I'm worth anything? I don't want to work with anyone who doesn't value what I do. Pro photographers never complain. In fact ALL have said my rates reasonable.

I am sure from talking to other models they share similar experiences.

I imagine photographers get it too from wannabe models. So the truth Herman isn't in your latter equations. It's also to do with WHO does the asking. I've never asked anybody. It's photographers chasing models not so much vice versa.

If the reverse were true you'd have hundreds of paid castings from models asking for photographers. But you don't.


The truth is that as I have shown with data 20% of models here have at least regular part time industry work ,  and 65% of paid castings are industry, and a fair proportion of tf too. Less than 20% of paid castings offer nudity. Now just because you don't value promo life modelling or fit and showroom, doesn't mean that other photographers are the same. I have cited in other threads ay least twenty models here who get regular fit work as well as other industry work including commercial campaigns, fashion editorials etc. They are NOT two different animals. Same is true with promo. Kate Eaton, Victoria Elle and Kelly Kickham, are just three pro models here in forums have also testified to this. So who knows best? You guys who shoot for fun or four industry professionals?


So to add to your last points. If you are asking me to work expect to pay unless you are offering editorial or high production value. And even then I am going to be more inclined to do it with photographers who've given me a dozen paid jobs in the past. I'm loyal like that. So if you are doing the chasing expect to pay or have something cool to offer other than more photos. Because enough photographers give us pics plus pay.

Kelli lives in LA
Eliza is close to London
Kate is Toronto
So no surprise there.

And we have done the statistics dance before.
No one especially me is denying the there are some top pros on this site.
I think 20% is a stretch and an anomaly of how you did the search. Be that as it may if you are going to tell me that 20% of the models on MM are making a living off MM, I really, really want the source of whatever you are smoking so I can get me some. Part time means what? I know a couple of local models who make a couple of hundred a year doing nudes, or for art schools. That is a low level of part time. And I would really love to know how you figured out the pay level for that 20%.

And if they were all better than you, should you not have been paying THEM. I mean that is part of the rational you keep making why photographers should be paying models. And yes I get it, they got in touch with you, so they wanted something you had to offer, and either their client was paying them, or they were doing something special. And yes it is in who does the asking. As the old business maxim goes  "the first to quote a price loses".
Kind of like dating. If I ask you out, I expect to pay. If you ask me out, I expect you to pay" But the reality is that that no matter who does the asking, the guy usually pays.

And stop perseverating about the asshats that made you ridiculous offers and then got their knickers in a twist because you turned them down. We know they exist, we know there are far, far too many of them on this site, and since MM is not disposed to fix things, learn to live with them like we have to learn to live with flaking models.

There are 230538  models on MM. Are you going to tell me that 20% of those are making a significant part of their income from modeling on MM?

And this is extremely ironic "I don't quite ever get why that happens since why ask me to shoot if you don't think I'm worth anything? I don't want to work with anyone who doesn't value what I do. Pro photographers never complain. " (Eliza) Since if you flip it around, it might remind you of a ranting thread I started where I complained that I got no appreciation from wannabee FB models, and yet had no problem with pro-models (pro models, pro dancers, pro musicians). I have had girls I would not boink, much less photograph get pissed at me because I would not photograph them. And believe me, at my age my boinking standards are pretty low. (let me guess what kind of a flame war this last is going to start).

No argument here " If you are asking me to work expect to pay unless you are offering editorial or high production value. And even then I am going to be more inclined to do it with photographers who've given me a dozen paid jobs in the past. I'm loyal like that. So if you are doing the chasing expect to pay or have something cool to offer other than more photos. Because enough photographers give us pics plus pay."

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I have and still do shoot working pro models.   Some from Factor and BMG and I'm a hack.   So anybody good can.   This ideal that you put forward that photographers can't get pro models for tests is absolute BULLSHIT.
This pay me because I'm pretty attitude mostly exists here.  I shot a very nice girl who is on my Facebook page who told me she models because she enjoys being photographed and she has a job and she added I don't want to be forced into doing shots I'm not comfortable with because I don't have any money.


Ever wonder why its primarily you making the claims you do?   Where are all the other clothes only models?   Where are all the models making a living from this site?   Why do so many models stop signing in after a few weeks or months?    I get that you want to push the notion that MM is a professional site and their are lots of paid fashion or commercial jobs here but the simple fact is their aren't but like Don Quixote you continue the good fight.   I admire that I guess and on that note rather then start another of our infamous battles which close threads and are a disruption I'll not respond to you anymore.

Tony like you I don't like the "pay me because I'm pretty" attitude that exists. Those girls are NOT professional models. My problem is that its photographers who have often created those monsters. I've come across several myself and they really think they deserve to earn money because they think they are better looking than professional models. And GUESS who gave them that ideas. It's not just about the look and never has been.

I have never claimed anything that has not been based on data and evidence Tony, evidence that you have consistently ignored. I've trawled through samples of models on various areas. Looked at their credits. Seen when they have campaigns under their belt, done catalogue showroom and extensive high level promotional work often international it's safe to say they are making at least part if their living this way. I have proved to you numerous times what fit and showroom models make. It's not peanuts. None of those models do adult work. Some may do tasteful nudity, as I did myself, but there's NO money in it from photographers here in the UK. Even adult industry the photographers - who are often as amateur looking as they come - offer tf. Not that I'd do it for all the tea in China but they are the biggest pain in the ass on UK modelling sites.  Art nude does not exist in the way it does in the states. You've seen who Stefano used it wasn't specialist art nude most models have no objection to tasteful nudity. Certainly no money there. But aalmost all his models actually had varied credits including fashion, but also fit, promo, and life drawing.


So again I'm not disputing that the US travelling nude model business exists, but it doesn't as such so much elsewhere. Certainly not here. Those that do model nude professionally in the UK will either do glamour, specialist arty fetish, cater for adult market, or do life drawing. And each of those are all different. The latter a great many models make a living at. I once exclusively made my living that way, and the demand exceeded supply to the extent where I wished I could replicate myself and soon found myself in a network of dozens of non RAM models covering each other. And there are hundreds on RAM too. Most of these models also do photographic modelling and lots of them on MM. I'd estimate a hundred on MM in London alone and no doubting they are mostly making a living.

The same is true of promo. I know many doing promo and have cited dozens before from many regions of the US aswell as UK making a living and what they do and how much they earn. You are in denial of this and dismiss them as not important and not professional despite the fact that numerous models here have testified that they do it as it can pay well, and a majority of models indicating willingness to do it.

Fit and showroom I've covered but again searches indicate around 100 in London alone who list it on credits. NO doubt whatever of their earning potential, and almost all of them have impressive credits fashion and commercial too.


You state you believe there are only 25 pro models on MM site wide yet there are easily that many in forums. And Kate Eaton, Victoria Elle, Kelly Kickham and myself to name just four who have made this point before. None of us make money taking our clothes off. Myself excepted but that was life modelling. And even that well paid gig soon took a back seat to higher paid fit and showroom for designers and fashion houses. So if I can get those gigs so can other serious models who are industry standard (I'm not ).


Everyone on my credits have provided my work and there is no question if any of them being non industry.


Around 20% of models on this site work in some capacity or other in the industry. That may dip in some areas. But if there's that many in BC which I've now sampled then that's a decent indicator. It's slightly higher in London. Probably lower in Kansas.

I've proved that. I've also proved that 65% of castings in paid assignments advertised are non nude, and industry in some capacity or other.

So what you believe is without foundation, and what I go on is what the data says.

I have no interest in raising the professional status of the site apart from seeing you guys stopped being messed around by wannabes. As MM won't do that it's up to you to to sample properly or suffer the consequences.  But the reality is the experienced models here are mostly professional and you won't secure them without pay or high production value with real designers etc. Those models make up 20% of the site only. I have never claimed they are more but pros are here in abundance if you look.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Hey guys, I like you both but I sense that things are starting to go in circles again.

Just sayin'