Photographer
CrunchySpart
Posts: 17
Midlothian, Virginia, US
I have been doing numerous photo shoots lately dibbing and dabbing in different areas to gain experience in different areas. I think my next challenge would be boudoir or nude.
I am going to make a casting call for a paid local shoot.
Because I am looking for experience, It doesn't really matter to me who the model is or what she looks like as long as i can learn from them (other factors will be considered such as references but that isnt the point to this topic) . So for compensation I was going to have the models set their rate, and I would pick the lowest number. I have not seen a casting call like this so I understand it is very unconventional.
As models, would you be offended to see a casting call such as that?
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3971
Seattle, Washington, US
Picking the model with the lowest rate doesn't make any sense since you stated that you want a model with experience that you can learn from. Lowest rate does not equal most experienced/best to learn from. I suggest you either change your objective, or pick the model that's going to be the most helpful for you and save a little extra to pay her rates. An extra $25 per hour (or even more) is completely worth it since you'll learn more from an experienced nude model in a couple hours than you will from an inexperienced one in a whole day.
LOWER RATE DOES NOT = BETTER VALUE
A casting like the one you're describing is going to cause most of the experienced nude models to laugh and move on. They know their value, and typically choose not to work with people that don't understand the concept of value vs price. I doubt your casting will offend many models, but it will drive away the good ones, and end up hurting you in the end when you don't get any quality applicants. Such a casting will attract desperate models with little to no experience.
Model
Caitin Bre
Posts: 2687
Apache Junction, Arizona, US
MelissaAnn wrote:
Picking the model with the lowest rate doesn't make any sense since you stated that you want a model with experience that you can learn from. Lowest rate does not equal most experienced/best to learn from. I suggest you either change your objective, or pick the model that's going to be the most helpful for you and save a little extra to pay her rates. An extra $25 per hour (or even more) is completely worth it since you'll learn more from an experienced nude model in a couple hours than you will from an inexperienced one in a whole day.
LOWER RATE DOES NOT = BETTER VALUE
A casting like the one you're describing is going to cause most of the experienced nude models to laugh and move on. They know their value, and typically choose not to work with people that don't understand the concept of value vs price. I doubt your casting will offend many models, but it will drive away the good ones, and end up hurting you in the end when you don't get any quality applicants. Such a casting will attract desperate models with little to no experience. +1
Model
D A N I
Posts: 4627
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
I don't think it's a good idea
Photographer
Culturally Destitute
Posts: 551
Seattle, Washington, US
In my experience, you get what you pay for.
Photographer
Benjamen McGuire
Posts: 3991
Portland, Oregon, US
Ask for their rates, but don't specifically say you will pick the lowest. Consider their rates vs value privately. Or you could just directly contact someone knowledgeable, experienced, beautiful, nice, and just all around awesome in your area. https://www.modelmayhem.com/98824
Clothing Designer
Baanthai
Posts: 1218
Bangkok, Bangkok, Thailand
CrunchySpart wrote:
So for compensation I was going to have the models set their rate, and I would pick the lowest number. Is your casting call going to read "Need cheapest model I can find"??? Total Fail.
Photographer
CrunchySpart
Posts: 17
Midlothian, Virginia, US
Based on that, I think I would just ask the model to list their rates and availability.
I won't mention that price would be the deciding factor (which it is not, as mentioned i would be checking references among other things)
I think i just worded this horribly horribly wrong. Glad I learned that here in the forum instead of during the casting call. Thank you all for the input.
(I don't have the time search the area for models, especially since hardly any respond right away or even at all so a casting call is the option i would prefer)
mod can lock this if they want. i got the answer i'm looking for and won't be checking this thread anymore, but i know ppl are still going to post on this. matters not to me. thanks everyone above who gave me non sarcastic advice.
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 3523
Royal Oak, Michigan, US
Its smart to realize that learning from more experienced models is a smart investment. It's not smart to understand that the appearance of your models is a big factor in evaluating your portfolio by future clients and talent. Having the right pretty models for boudior and nude work is a great tool to inspire others to work with you and hire you, so ignoring looks and hiring on price alone is a mistake.
When I see photographers with photos of very short models trying fashion, or flat models doing boudoir, or models with large breasts doing fine art nudes-its a clear sign that the photographer doesn't understand the critical style cues that make those genres work well. Likewise. pretty and passionate models are essential for boudoir.
Photographer
Leonard Gee Photography
Posts: 18096
Sacramento, California, US
1. Experience does not equal quality or natural talent
2. Rates do not translate equally to quality or a great model
3. There is natural talent who will test, there is $300 hour models with no experience
4. Self perceived "experience" does not equal real world talent
5. How do you determine the ability of a model without actually testing them?
Photographer
John Horwitz
Posts: 2920
Raleigh, North Carolina, US
What could possibly go wrong?
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
House of Thailand wrote:
Is your casting call going to read "Need cheapest model I can find"??? Total Fail. Yeah, what this person said.
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 39248
Portland, Oregon, US
CrunchySpart wrote:
Based on that, I think I would just ask the model to list their rates and availability.
I won't mention that price would be the deciding factor (which it is not, as mentioned i would be checking references among other things)
I think i just worded this horribly horribly wrong. Glad I learned that here in the forum instead of during the casting call. Thank you all for the input.
(I don't have the time search the area for models, especially since hardly any respond right away or even at all so a casting call is the option i would prefer)
mod can lock this if they want. i got the answer i'm looking for and won't be checking this thread anymore, but i know ppl are still going to post on this. matters not to me. thanks everyone above who gave me non sarcastic advice. You didn't word this horribly wrong, it sounds like you worded this exactly right, you just might not have gotten the answers you hoped for. Remember, we learn from our mistakes, so this is probably a valuable lesson.
If you're looking for experience and quality, you need to be willing to pay THAT rate, if you're looking to pick the model based on her rate, especially without you having work in that specialty, it is unlikely you'll find an experienced model (like you said you wanted) who is willing to go cheap for you, ESPECIALLY if you're hoping to learn from her and not just hire her.
This about this, in your situation, you're not just paying for the modeling and talent, but you're also paying them to help learn from them, and that is certainly worth far more than trying to find experienced/quality models on a Walmart/McDonalds budget.
If you can't afford an experienced model at this time, save up your money, and hire based on the talent, not on their rate.
Sometimes, you just have to pay for quality. Good luck.
Photographer
Kevin Flick Photography
Posts: 24
Savannah, Georgia, US
There's an old saying that works for almost any field. I learned it in the automotive and service industries. In those case it's "Cheap, Fast, Done right. Pick 2." In this case... "Experience, Quality, Price." Pick two, but you will rarely, if ever, find all three in the same person.
Model
Nicole Nu
Posts: 3981
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
MelissaAnn wrote:
Picking the model with the lowest rate doesn't make any sense since you stated that you want a model with experience that you can learn from. Lowest rate does not equal most experienced/best to learn from. I suggest you either change your objective, or pick the model that's going to be the most helpful for you and save a little extra to pay her rates. An extra $25 per hour (or even more) is completely worth it since you'll learn more from an experienced nude model in a couple hours than you will from an inexperienced one in a whole day.
LOWER RATE DOES NOT = BETTER VALUE
A casting like the one you're describing is going to cause most of the experienced nude models to laugh and move on. They know their value, and typically choose not to work with people that don't understand the concept of value vs price. I doubt your casting will offend many models, but it will drive away the good ones, and end up hurting you in the end when you don't get any quality applicants. Such a casting will attract desperate models with little to no experience. +1
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 12221
Los Angeles, California, US
MelissaAnn wrote:
LOWER RATE DOES NOT = BETTER VALUE And higher rates do not equal higher quality. Particularly on MM.
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3971
Seattle, Washington, US
J O H N A L L A N wrote:
And higher rates do not equal higher quality. Particularly on MM. That should be obvious, but apparently it's not to some people. It's best to judge a model/photographer on the quality of their work rather than their rates. Picking a model with the highest rate and assuming she's the best isn't any wiser than what the OP originally proposed. People need to use their heads, read profiles, look at ports, and judge for themselves what is the best value for their needs. Best value often falls somewhere in between the highest and lowest quoted rates.
Model
Model MoRina
Posts: 6638
MacMurdo - permanent station of the US, Sector claimed by New Zealand, Antarctica
I recall a couple occasions over the last 6 or so years when being asked for my rates I was warned that the decision was being made solely on price.
I decline to give my rates in those cases.
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 7504
New York, New York, US
The OP has said that he won't be reviewing the thread, so for any others with the same need to gain experience and knowledge, and FWIW:
One of my first models was brand spanking new and did her first ever nude shoot with me. It was one of the best shoots I ever had and I learned more from her than almost any other model, whatever their experience or rates. One part was that she had a dynamite body and knew instinctively what she needed to do to show it off to its best advantage. But another big ingredient was that we worked together, talking, asking, trying things and exchanging opinions on what worked and what didn't. That's a technique that you can employ with every model, whatever her experience.
Understand, I'm not undervaluing the benefits of using an experienced model, but I am saying that every shoot can and should be a learning experience. Learning is something we do, with or without teaching. The teacher can only facilitate learning not enforce it. And my experience has been that we can learn more from examining our mistakes to see what we did wrong than we can from examining our successes to see what we did right. In the case of an inexperienced photographer working with an experienced model oftentimes the success of the picture is a result of the model's personal skill and look rather than anything the photographer did, either right or wrong. In that case there's nothing she can teach the photographer.
All IMHO as always, of course.
ETA and following on Melissa Ann's very accurate comment just above, learning to make those value judgments and on what factors to base them is a big part of a photographer's learning process. It's an area in which the mistakes can be worth a whole lot more than the successes.
Photographer
Laubenheimer
Posts: 9317
New York, New York, US
Rays Fine Art wrote:
The OP has said that he won't be reviewing the thread, so for any others with the same need to gain experience and knowledge, and FWIW:
One of my first models was brand spanking new and did her first ever nude shoot with me. It was one of the best shoots I ever had and I learned more from her than almost any other model, whatever their experience or rates. One part was that she had a dynamite body and knew instinctively what she needed to do to show it off to its best advantage. But another big ingredient was that we worked together, talking, asking, trying things and exchanging opinions on what worked and what didn't. That's a technique that you can employ with every model, whatever her experience.
Understand, I'm not undervaluing the benefits of using an experienced model, but I am saying that every shoot can and should be a learning experience. Learning is something we do, with or without teaching. The teacher can only facilitate learning not enforce it. And my experience has been that we can learn more from examining our mistakes to see what we did wrong than we can from examining our successes to see what we did right. In the case of an inexperienced photographer working with an experienced model oftentimes the success of the picture is a result of the model's personal skill and look rather than anything the photographer did, either right or wrong. In that case there's nothing she can teach the photographer.
All IMHO as always, of course.
ETA and following on Melissa Ann's very accurate comment just above, learning to make those value judgments and on what factors to base them is a big part of a photographer's learning process. It's an area in which the mistakes can be worth a whole lot more than the successes. honestly, every model is different. every person is different. i've talked to many new models after their photo sessions about this. some say they are more on the shy side and like to just jump into the photo session without a lot of conversation and have the photographer direct them as much as possible. they don't want to exchange opinions, they just want to be directed. then there are other models who are more outgoing when it comes to modeling and they don't mind talking about the photos, etc as the session goes along. so my assessment is that for new models, many prefer the photographer to guide them through the shoot. but for experienced models it becomes more of a collaboration, with strong conversation and discussions.
Photographer
Marin Photo NYC
Posts: 7348
New York, New York, US
Loki Studio wrote:
When I see photographers with photos of very short models trying fashion, or flat models doing boudoir, or models with large breasts doing fine art nudes-its a clear sign that the photographer doesn't understand the critical style cues that make those genres work well. Likewise. pretty and passionate models are essential for boudoir. So being a "generic" photographer based on genre is a key to success?
Having images that aren't different is a good idea? Good luck with that.
If you want to learn to shoot, take classes, buy a book, workshops, or become an apprentice. Paying a model to become a better photographer is the stupidest thing I ever heard.......Do you hire a person at a flat fix to change your alternator?
Model
Isis22
Posts: 3557
Muncie, Indiana, US
If you can't be bothered to do a simple search for models in your area then really it's going to be a crap shoot. Pun intended.
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 28745
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
CrunchySpart wrote:
Based on that, I think I would just ask the model to list their rates and availability.
I won't mention that price would be the deciding factor (which it is not, as mentioned i would be checking references among other things)
I think i just worded this horribly horribly wrong. Glad I learned that here in the forum instead of during the casting call. Thank you all for the input.
(I don't have the time search the area for models, especially since hardly any respond right away or even at all so a casting call is the option i would prefer)
mod can lock this if they want. i got the answer i'm looking for and won't be checking this thread anymore, but i know ppl are still going to post on this. matters not to me. thanks everyone above who gave me non sarcastic advice. I dont think you worded it wrong at all. You specifically said
So for compensation I was going to have the models set their rate, and I would pick the lowest number. Seems pretty clear.
Good models aren't going to fight each other for your money by way of lowering their rates to make sure they're cheaper than the next. We dont like being lowballed in the first place, we're not going to do it to ourselves for a single lousy shoot possibility.
Photographer
Images Maker
Posts: 763
Salinas, California, US
A very good model told me this once, A very good model, will not get good pics from a beginner photographer, but a beginner model, can get great pics from a good photographer.
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 39248
Portland, Oregon, US
Images Maker wrote:
A very good model told me this once, A very good model, will not get good pics from a beginner photographer, but a beginner model, can get great pics from a good photographer. A very good model told me once not to give models Cheetos to eat when shooting.
It is great that she told you that once, sure, lots of possibilities *can* happen, but that does not mean they are *likely* to happen, but it really does not relate to the OP's question.
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 4810
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
If your main aim is to learn, I think you will find it more fruitful to engage a model with dance training because they tend to be more consciously aware of why various poses work or do not work and so can help educate you.
Alternatively, you might cast for a skilled photographer to act as your assistant and tutor.
Model
Erin Holmes
Posts: 6583
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US
You'll probably end up getting either a super inexperienced model, or a super desperate "model" who needs any amount of money asap...if you're lucky you'll get both!
Photographer
David Stone Imaging
Posts: 1032
Seattle, Washington, US
Images Maker wrote:
A very good model told me this once, A very good model, will not get good pics from a beginner photographer, but a beginner model, can get great pics from a good photographer. Everyone has an opinion...but I've known models where it is next to impossible to take a bad photo. I know of one such beginner photographer that found 3 such [nude] models to start his port. However, he has yet to do so well with the inexperienced models...but at least he is able to book them from what he did with professional models.
Photographer
BillyPhotography
Posts: 467
Chicago, Illinois, US
Why would they be offended? Just don't tell them. I don't tell models my selection method, which is filtering in search from cup size DD to max.
Model
Cwen
Posts: 1760
Washington, District of Columbia, US
I'd avoid something like that.
Model
Nicole Nu
Posts: 3981
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Loki Studio wrote:
When I see photographers with photos of very short models trying fashion, or flat models doing boudoir, or models with large breasts doing fine art nudes-its a clear sign that the photographer doesn't understand the critical style cues that make those genres work well. Likewise. pretty and passionate models are essential for boudoir. Hahaha you can't be serious can you?
Please then, enlighten me, what is exactly is that I shoot since it can't possibly be art nudes since I have big boobs.
Please oh please oh wise one of all the genres.
Photographer
Llobet Photography
Posts: 4915
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
Why are you picking by lowest rate number when you're looking for a model with experience? You're just going to get the cheapest but not the best.
I would pick the best model I can afford.
I did this with fashion models a couple of years ago and it worked perfectly. They gave me a great start. They were great to work with too!
Photographer
Bare Essential Photos
Posts: 3605
Upland, California, US
CrunchySpart wrote:
I have been doing numerous photo shoots lately dibbing and dabbing in different areas to gain experience in different areas. I think my next challenge would be boudoir or nude.
I am going to make a casting call for a paid local shoot.
Because I am looking for experience, It doesn't really matter to me who the model is or what she looks like as long as i can learn from them (other factors will be considered such as references but that isnt the point to this topic) . So for compensation I was going to have the models set their rate, and I would pick the lowest number. I have not seen a casting call like this so I understand it is very unconventional.
As models, would you be offended to see a casting call such as that? Well, those things we do and say reflect on who we are.
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
do you have traveling nude models in your area? i've had great success with them. but you may be able to get a local nude model cheaper. i've had local nude models who were $30-$75 for a shoot. and sometimes you can even get them TF.
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 7504
New York, New York, US
Loki Studio wrote:
When I see photographers with photos of very short models trying fashion, or flat models doing boudoir, or models with large breasts doing fine art nudes-its a clear sign that the photographer doesn't understand the critical style cues that make those genres work well. Likewise. pretty and passionate models are essential for boudoir. NicoleNudes wrote:
Hahaha you can't be serious can you?
Please then, enlighten me, what is exactly is that I shoot since it can't possibly be art nudes since I have big boobs.
Please oh please oh wise one of all the genres. D'ja ever notice how long the rule-breakers in art are remembered and how quickly the rule-followers are forgotten?
All IMHO as always, of course.
Photographer
Art Silva
Posts: 10064
Santa Barbara, California, US
CrunchySpart wrote:
I have been doing numerous photo shoots lately dibbing and dabbing in different areas to gain experience in different areas. I think my next challenge would be boudoir or nude.
I am going to make a casting call for a paid local shoot.
Because I am looking for experience, It doesn't really matter to me who the model is or what she looks like as long as i can learn from them (other factors will be considered such as references but that isnt the point to this topic) . So for compensation I was going to have the models set their rate, and I would pick the lowest number. I have not seen a casting call like this so I understand it is very unconventional.
As models, would you be offended to see a casting call such as that? Not going to work!!!
The only way you can get an experienced model at the "lowest" rate is if "you" have something to offer her photographically. But since you are new to the genre and are seeking to learn it, that kind of offering will get you nowhere.
Supply and Demand and a bit of negotiating is in play here
Photographer
J-PhotoArt
Posts: 1133
San Francisco, California, US
Leonard Gee Photography wrote:
1. Experience does not equal quality or natural talent
2. Rates do not translate equally to quality or a great model
3. There is natural talent who will test, there is $300 hour models with no experience
4. Self perceived "experience" does not equal real world talent
5. How do you determine the ability of a model without actually testing them? +1
Model
Figuremodel001
Posts: 342
Chicago, Illinois, US
While it's probably done all the time, there may be more to consider than the pure cost. Cheapest is fine but not necessarily best. It's a starting point though and could well be part of your learning process on the road to seeking the best value. Pretty mush the same rule as buying any product or service.
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