J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

Why am I not surprised (sarc) - apparently it's measured in buff-inches.

Thank you for your helpful and thoughtful comment.

You should not be surprised.  Buff specifies umbrella measurements the same way the rest of the industry - "Arc Size".   The Arc Size is the measure of the open umbrella starting from one end of the umbrella, going over the top of the canopy to the other end.

If you look at the PLM specifications on Buff's web site, he is very clear.
The 64" PLM is specified as:
64 inches (across the arc, tip to tip)
54 inch diameter (across the open face)
33.5 inches collapsed

I am not sure how you had trouble understanding this chart.



You may wish to google "How to measure an umbrella" for more on umbrella sizes.

Michael Fryd wrote:

Thank you for your helpful and thoughtful comment.

You should not be surprised.  Buff specifies umbrella measurements the same way the rest of the industry - "Arc Size".   The Arc Size is the measure of the open umbrella starting from one end of the umbrella, going over the top of the canopy to the other end.

If you look at the PLM specifications on Buff's web site, he is very clear.
The 64" PLM is specified as:
64 inches (across the arc, tip to tip)
54 inch diameter (across the open face)
33.5 inches collapsed

I am not sure how you had trouble understanding this chart.



You may wish to google "How to measure an umbrella" for more on umbrella sizes.

Well, here's a link to a reputable company that doesn't - maybe you've heard of them - it lists them as diameter.
http://profoto.com/int/products/light-s … /umbrellas

Here's another
https://photoflex.com/products/72-silver-umbrella

PCB using the arc because rain umbrellas do is perfectly in keeping with their flim-flam smoke and mirrors marketing strategy.

I think maybe you're confusing things with rain umbrellas - which is mostly what umbrellas are good for - I always keep one in my car in case it rains.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
Well, here's a link to a reputable company that doesn't - maybe you've heard of them - it lists them as diameter.
http://profoto.com/int/products/light-s … /umbrellas

Here's another
https://photoflex.com/products/72-silver-umbrella

PCB using the arc because rain umbrellas do is perfectly in keeping with their flim-flam smoke and mirrors marketing strategy.

I think maybe you're confusing things with rain umbrellas - which is mostly what umbrellas are good for - I always keep one in my car in case it rains.

It is clear you don't like Buff's marketing.   I disagree with your assessment that Buff's marketing is "smoke an mirrors" as the specification page for the product is very clear as to the measurements.

However, the topic at hand is to help the OP pick the best products for her.  What seems relevant to that topic is the performance and specifications of the products she may wish to consider.  Whether or not you like the company's marketing doesn't seem to have much relevance to that issue.

The issues we should be discussing are the relative strengths and weaknesses of the various products, and how they fit the OP's needs.   A discussion on the marketing strategies of various companies probably belongs in a different thread.


I think that everyone is now clear that the dimensions of Buff's PLM modifiers are on the product's web page.  There is no need to further discuss there actual dimensions.

Laura Bello wrote:
So my wonderful mother is offering to buy me something rather expensive for xmas this year and I'm really thinking I'd like a strobe kit of some sort.  I currently use off camera flashes for my studio work and it totally sucks :p.  The problem is I've only worked with stobes a few times and don't know all the in and outs of what to look for when it comes to buying them. Naturally the ones I got to use, which were amazing, were profoto and those are seriously out of my price range, my mom only loves me so much lol. 

Anyways this is the kit I was thinking of asking for since it seems like its rated well and it uses Bowens modifiers (I already have a decent beauty dish that fits Bowens equipment)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 … _Head.html

What's really important to me when it comes to strobes is mostly power naturally.  I shoot a lot of sharp beauty work so I really need to be able to shoot around ISO 100 SS: 150 with an F-stop of at least 11.  Right now the max I can get from my flashes is about F-9 on a good day and when I shoot beauty work I'll have wonderfully crisp eyes but sometimes the models nose will be blurry, obviously not ideal.  I'm not sure what the minimum wattage I would need to achieve that and I feel like I read that a higher wattage doesn't necessarily = more power, there's other factors involved.

Any suggestions or good info to know about buying strobes?  Should I look into 'building' my own set myself as opposed to buying a kit or would the bowens be a good way to go since I'm a newbie?  Oh and if it helps my budget is around $800

I believe you will need more power, at least 600 to 800 watt/Seconds if you want to shoot at f11 and 100 ISO, when you add a soft box to your lights you will be dropping the light power from 1 to 3 stops. The other benefit is faster recycle time at mid power plus longer lamp and circuit life if you are not shooting at 100% power all the time.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
Why am I not surprised (sarc) - apparently it's measured in buff-inches.

Michael Fryd wrote:
You may wish to google "How to measure an umbrella" for more on umbrella sizes.

Not trying to be snarky here, but... umbrella manufacturers probably decided long ago to measure umbrellas the simplest, least troublesome way possible. Which I expect is the case when they are closed. Measure the spine length and multiply by 2. Not many umbrella users fret about umbrella diameters when open.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
>>>>>  Tangent Alert  >>>>>

For me, you can't talk about studio strobes without first talking about the studio.  Get a strobe kit that matches the constraints of the studio.  For example:

...  You don't need 10 foot tall light stands if your space has 8 foot ceilings.
...  You don't need super-powerful & bright lights if the space is small.
...  If the space is small, you need to be able to dial down the power.

In addition, getting a power pack, strobe heads, and light stands is about half the battle.  You also need to consider things like the following:

...  Light modifiers (soft boxes, umbrellas, snoots, reflectors, etc.),
...  Backgrounds & stands for the backgrounds,
...  Posing aids (like boxes),
...  Reflectors,
...  Radio triggers (e.g. Pocket Wizards),
...  Stands for putting strobes close to the floor,
...  Props & wardrobe,
...  Storage & carrying cases,
...  etc.

Also, in general, you have to take into account the space used by your modifiers.  A light stand with an umbrella takes up a lot of space.  A light stand with a boom arm also takes up a lot of space.

Also, a three head kit is 10x more flexible than a two head kit (assuming you have the studio space) -- two light setups can be limiting.

There is nothing wrong with starting small & expanding.  For example, starting with two heads is okay if your power pack can accept three or four heads, which you can obtain with future purchases.

So, that'll get you thinking.

>>>>>  End Tangent  >>>>>

NOT tangent.
On the mark, and similar to what I was going to say.

Adorama has some nice kits,

Ok, I was going to read everything before commenting, but since I have already started...

Plan carefully for the future.

or consider what you are getting now as a throw away, meaning you know that at some point in the future you will change gears completely. Very quickly the mods will end up locking in you into a system.

DO NOT worry about the top of the line systems, the very, very expensive stuff. By the time you need them, you will be able to justify them. By the time you *need* , Profoto, Elinchrome, Broncolor...

And as others have pointed out you can easily mix speedlights and strobes. It was mentioned that the speedlights will not work TTL in a mixed light setup, well guess what the strobes that TTL are very few and far between.

And you will likely get as many different suggestion as the number of people doing the suggesting. Which should tell you that all of the good stuff will do the job for you.

Michael Fryd wrote:

There are many good options to choose from.

Here are some topics I think you should consider:


I like a solution that allows you to grow.  You should be buying into a system, not just buying something to meet your immediate need.  You want something that works now, but should you grow your system, the items you buy today should still be a useful part of that

You want a solution that offers a wide range of modifiers. 

You want a system that is repairable should you drop a light into a swimming pool.

You want a system that offers all of the capabilities that you will eventually need.

You need to ask yourself if you want to be limited to shooting in a studio (i.e. electricity is available) or you want to shoot places where there isn't a convenient electrical outlet.

When shooting studio lights, most photographers choose to manually set strobe power levels.  It's helpful to have a remote that allows you to change power levels.


I am familiar with  Paul Buff's line of lights so I will give examples from his product line.   I think Buff's product line is an excellent solution for someone in your situation, but it certainly is not the only solution.


Buff has two significant product lines - the low cost Alien Bee line ($225 to $360), and the high performance Einstein line ($500).  You can buy into the system with low cost Alien Bees, and when you need high performance lights, you can add Einsteins.  When you start using Einsteins as your main lights, the Bees become hair lights, background lights, etc.

All Buff lights use the Balcar mount.   Modifiers that you buy for your Bees, will also work with the Einsteins.


For someone buying their first set of lights, you should think about whether you want to start with one good light (an Einstein) and a reflector, or two reasonable lights (Alien Bees).    The oft repeated wisdom is that one should first master one light with reflector, then move on to multiple lights.   Personally, I think this it is also reasonable to start with multiple lights.  You can go either way here.

The Bees do everything a beginning photographer needs.  Einsteins add some advanced features including a wider power range, shorter flash duration, and more accurate color temp and power setting.   

Not that the Bees are bad, they are on par, or better than most other lights.   Most lights (including the Bees) have a color temp shift between full and minimum power.  The Einstein eliminates this and provide constant color temp throughout the entire power range.   Most brands of light exhibit some minor shot to shot power variations when stopped down 3 or more stops from full power.  The Einstein eliminates this and provides consistent power from shot to shot.

The Bees are certainly a good light, and perform on par with lights costing much more money.  The Einsteins are better.


At some point you will break a light.  Buff provides excellent customer service.  Most repairs are $40 or $50, and you have your light back in about a week.  Not every company has service this fast or this inexpensive.

If you use your lights a lot you will eventually need to replace the flash tube.  A new flash tube from Buff is about $35 and easy for you to replace.    Some companies will charge a hundred dollars or more for a replacement flash tube.  I suggest you look up parts and repair costs for whatever brand you are considering.


Buff offers a wide set of modifiers.  Reflectors in a wide selection of beam widths.  Traditional and foldable softboxes (the foldable softboxes setup/teardown very quickly, but require more room to store).  Of course he offers beauty dishes, strip boxes, background reflectors, etc.   Most third party modifiers can be used by buying them with a "Balcar speedring".  If you search eBay you can find lots of inexpensive Chinese modifiers that fit Buff lights.

My favorite Buff modifier is his Parabolic Light Modifier (PLM) with the optional diffusion fabric.    With the fabric, you get a large diameter softbox.  Without the fabric, you get directional light reminiscent of natural sunlight.   



With studio strobes, there is a tradeoff between recycle time and peak power demand.  With a faster recycle time you need to be plugged into a beefier circuit.  Buff's lights are designed to work with normal household outlets.  You can plug a couple of Buff lights into the same circuit, and you probably wont blow a circuit breaker when they recycle.   Lights that recycle faster are more likely to blow the circuit breaker.  Lights that recycle slower, are more likely to get you annoyed.

When you are away from power, Buff lights are designed to work with Buff's Battery powered "Vagabond" inverters.  The 3.5 lb, $240 Vagabond Mini will power 400 to 500 flashes at 640Ws each.   If you don't mind slower recycle times, you can hook multiple flashes up to a single Vagabond.   Not all studio strobes play well with affordable battery/inverters.  If you want the option of shooting away from power, make sure your lights are compatible with some sort of portable power system.


Buff offers both dumb (trigger only) and smart remotes.  His CyberCommander system allows full radio remote setting of power levels for both Bees and Einsteins (initial setup is smoother with the Einsteins).    If all you need is RF triggering, there are lots of systems out there.  If your have multiple lights (some high up in the air) you will really appreciate the ability to set power levels from ground level.  The CyberCommander has a built in light meter, and a graphical display of what f/stop each light is set for (f/stop readout takes into account the currently mounted modifier and the light to subject distance).  While other companies make RF remotes for power level, it's hard to find one with all the features of the CyberCommander.


My advice is to buy either a one or two light Buff system.

For one light, I would buy an Einstein, an 86" PLM with diffusion cover, a stand, and a CyberSync trigger transmitter and transceiver.

For two lights, I would get two Bees, the matching CyberSync Plus receivers, and the modifiers from above.

I think if you go with Buff products, you have a lot of options for expanding your system.   The Einsteins and CyberCommander gives you functionality that is hard to match at any price.  The Bees give you tremendous value for your dollar.

But this is just my opinion.  I am sure that others will make recommendations for other brands.

Keep in mind that any brand of light will help you take a great photograph.  The differences are mostly in how convenient they are to use.  In terms of the look of the photograph, the modifiers (and perhaps the flash duration) are the critical factors.


God luck and let us know what you decide, or if you have additional questions.

I went from Bee's to Einsteins.

I am quite happy.

However there are other similar routes.
As above, you will not likely go wrong with PCB (lets not get into that war), but there are other options that will give similar results for more or less money.

DougBPhoto wrote:
Laura, what did you wind up purchasing?

I decided to get a new computer (my boyfriends building it for me) with the money instead cause I'm currently retouching on a 4 year old laptop with only 4 gigs of memory and a 15 inch monitor.  As much as I would love strobes I talked it over with my mom and since I'm trying to work as a retoucher and my laptop has been crashing and being slow lately we decided it was the better choice. Plus she was much more willing to buy me something that might be used for work instead of fun since my photoshoots are just for fun. Maybe next year I'll get strobes but my boyfriend was wonderful enough to get me a really nice soft box that fits my off camera flash so that's been great in the meantime and my new computer comes this week so I'm sure that'll really make my retouching easier and hopefully better.

DougBPhoto wrote:
Sounds like the bigger necessity for you, that is for sure.

I was hoping maybe you'd gone with the Bowens, still hoping to hear more hands-on opinions of them.

I really think when I do get some I'll got with that Bowens kit since I already have a beauty dish that fits the mount and now I also have a softbox as well.  That and they really just seem pretty good for what I'm going to need them for.  I'll try to remember to message you if I ever get my hands on them!

Laura Bello wrote:

I really think when I do get some I'll got with that Bowens kit since I already have a beauty dish that fits the mount and now I also have a softbox as well.  That and they really just seem pretty good for what I'm going to need them for.  I'll try to remember to message you if I ever get my hands on them!

Thanks Laura, I appreciate that. 

I'm actually researching this for a friend and we will probably make a purchase before you do. 

Laura Bello wrote:
I decided to get a new computer (my boyfriends building it for me) with the money instead cause I'm currently retouching on a 4 year old laptop with only 4 gigs of memory and a 15 inch monitor.  As much as I would love strobes I talked it over with my mom and since I'm trying to work as a retoucher and my laptop has been crashing and being slow lately we decided it was the better choice. Plus she was much more willing to buy me something that might be used for work instead of fun since my photoshoots are just for fun. Maybe next year I'll get strobes but my boyfriend was wonderful enough to get me a really nice soft box that fits my off camera flash so that's been great in the meantime and my new computer comes this week so I'm sure that'll really make my retouching easier and hopefully better.

There are so many low cost alternatives nowadays for your lighting needs, if you are comfortable trying something different.



For as low as $89.95 per head you can get 300ws strobes on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Neewer%C2%AE-300S … obe+Lights

or buy a kit
http://www.amazon.com/Neewer%C2%AE-Phot … _pr_sims_t

Stronger light than on camera strobes The low cost would allow to improve on your current lighting until you could upgrade to better studio lighting and you could use them for additional light when you upgrade.  A win, win IMHO. You can find great samples of work done with Neewer DI or Godox strobes on Flickr.

PS... You do wonderful work.

Love the Arts wrote:

There are so many low cost alternatives nowadays for your lighting needs, if you are comfortable trying something different.



For as low as $89.95 per head you can get 300ws strobes on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Neewer%C2%AE-300S … obe+Lights

or buy a kit
http://www.amazon.com/Neewer%C2%AE-Phot … _pr_sims_t

Stronger light than on camera strobes The low cost would allow to improve on your current lighting until you could upgrade to better studio lighting and you could use them for additional light when you upgrade.  A win, win IMHO. You can find great samples of work done with Neewer DI or Godox strobes on Flickr.

PS... You do wonderful work.

I started with similar Chinese strobes. They worked fine but the lack of a speedring mount made mounting any sort of modifier other than small softboxes or barndoors impossible. The do work with the apollo orb and some speedlight modifiers however. They also work with large umbrellas if you use an umbrella bracket and hang the light off the umbrella shaft.

Cheers!
Noah

Noah Russell wrote:
I started with similar Chinese strobes. They worked fine but the lack of a speedring mount made mounting any sort of modifier other than small softboxes or barndoors impossible. The do work with the apollo orb and some speedlight modifiers however. They also work with large umbrellas if you use an umbrella bracket and hang the light off the umbrella shaft.

Cheers!
Noah

For $18.00 (US) you can buy a kit of barn doors, filters and a grid.
With a $15.00 adaptor, the Neewer strobes can use many Elinchrom, Bowen and Cowboy studio light modifiers, grids and beauty dishes.  With an adapater, Godox and Neewer strobes offer a lot of variety for a low price. If you decide to upgrade to Paul Buff, you can use Neewer strobes for slave lighting. You can use Mini Vagabonds with the Neewer 300 Ws strobes; they work just fine.  $89.95 per head is not a bad starting off point, if you want to add strobe studio lighting and your budget is limited. Buy cheap (they offer a year warranty) shoot now and save for more durable lighting later.

The Chinese have upped the entry level studio lighting game.  Giving a photographer some decent strobe lighting choices for a low price.

Love the Arts wrote:

For $18.00 (US) you can buy a kit of barn doors, filters and a grid.
With a $15.00 adaptor, the Neewer strobes can use many Elinchrom, Bowen and Cowboy studio light modifiers, grids and beauty dishes.  With an adapater, Godox and Neewer strobes offer a lot of variety for a low price. If you decide to upgrade to Paul Buff, you can use Neewer strobes for slave lighting. You can use Mini Vagabonds with the Neewer 300 Ws strobes; they work just fine.  $89.95 per head is not a bad starting off point, if you want to add strobe studio lighting and your budget is limited. Buy cheap (they offer a year warranty) shoot now and save for more durable lighting later.

The Chinese have upped the entry level studio lighting game.  Giving a photographer some decent strobe lighting choices for a low price.

The "universal mount" attaches with thumb screws to the thin plastic housing of the light using friction. My strobes had cracks in the plastic even trying to hold a 24x24 softbox.

Cheers!
Noah

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

Why am I not surprised (sarc) - apparently it's measured in buff-inches.

Isn't that how all men measure things?

Noah Russell wrote:

The "universal mount" attaches with thumb screws to the thin plastic housing of the light using friction. My strobes had cracks in the plastic even trying to hold a 24x24 softbox.

Cheers!
Noah

Cheers to you as well,  I have seen Alien Bee heads smoke and catch fire on You Tube. My point is defects happen no matter the brand.  I have been fortunate.  I use Neewer strobes for lightweight location work.  I have Speedotron for the studio. The Neewer 300ws strobes are a beefier alternative than Speedlights and, at $89.95 (US), cheaper than Alien Bees. So far, I have had no issues with these strobes, softboxes or grids. Amazon had a great deal on the kit, 3 heads softboxes, umbrellas, stands and a case for less than the cost of 1 AB800 head. It's more than paid for itself. Thank goodness for low cost options. When you know the limitations of equipment, you are rarely disappointed.

Apollo Photos wrote:
One thing no ones mentioned is how hard you are on your equipment.  If everything stays in your studio, and you aren't doing one or more shoots everyday, then you don't need to spend the thousands that many of the responders suggest.  High quality commercial equipment costs an arm and a leg, but stands up to years of daily abuse.  You can find some decent quality gear on Adorama, Amazon, and B&H, and probably your local camera shop, where you can get three lights and basic stands for about what the two Bowens cost.  Another suggestion, before you buy, go the your local camera shop, and rent.  See what you like, hear what they suggest for you.

+1

DanninTO wrote:
Maybe a tangent as well but.....

When buying lights always remember to put them on a good quality stand, and older does not necessarily mean bad.  Anytime you can find some old Mole Richardson stands on wheels snap them up they will outlast us all.  Plus until you have gotten a 'mole bite' you have not enjoyed photography!

+1