Tony Lawrence wrote:
OP, you have a studio space so approach area modeling agencies.   http://www.businessofmodeling.com/model … -kentucky/   You won't have to pay their models to test.   Other ideals include using Facebook or Craigslist.

Thanks for that link. I admit, I had not thought of that. I will give that a go. Much appreciated.

calistastyles wrote:
Perhaps try regular people ie not on MM.

They won't institute a rating system on here -- if you want the reasons why you can do a Search for the multiple threads on why not.

Sorry people no showed on you -- Just keep trying someone is bound to show up especially since you are offering some cash.

Murphy's law -- model just called to say she will be there tomorrow. Bound to happen once I started complaining. Perhaps my bad run of luck is over!

Portico Photography wrote:

Murphy's law -- model just called to say she will be there tomorrow. Bound to happen once I started complaining. Perhaps my bad run of luck is over!

No, her cat will puke on the carpet just before she heads out.

Portico Photography wrote:
Which brings me to my question. Why don't they have a system here whereby we can "rate" our experience (or lack thereof) with another member of the community. Doesn't have to be difficult -- more like eBay.  Simple criteria. Imagine how far a simple "Didn't show" rating would go. (or, to be fair, "didn't deliver" as well.)

Why not?

Because it is subject to abuse.
Because we have no reason to believe or disbelieve your assessment.
Because it will cause a hecka lot more work for the moderators.
Because it may make MM more vulnerable to civil disputes.
Because there is no recourse for the person receiving a bad review.
Because it is only one side of the story.
Because the person getting the poor review has no recourse.
Because it is "guilty by accusation" which offends people who believe in true justice.
Because it will make MM a less friendly place.
Because it is a poor substitute for checking references.
Because people considering the reviewed person might not find the reviews.
Because people giving a bad review will in turn receive bad reviews.
Because a bad review may or may not be true.

There.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Because it is subject to abuse.
Because we have no reason to believe or disbelieve your assessment.
Because it will cause a hecka lot more work for the moderators.
Because it may make MM more vulnerable to civil disputes.
Because there is no recourse for the person receiving a bad review.
Because it is only one side of the story.
Because the person getting the poor review has no recourse.
Because it is "guilty by accusation" which offends people who believe in true justice.
Because it will make MM a less friendly place.
Because it is a poor substitute for checking references.
Because people considering the reviewed person might not find the reviews.
Because people giving a bad review will in turn receive bad reviews.
Because a bad review may or may not be true.

There.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Because it is subject to abuse.
Because we have no reason to believe or disbelieve your assessment.
Because it will cause a hecka lot more work for the moderators.
Because it may make MM more vulnerable to civil disputes.
Because there is no recourse for the person receiving a bad review.
Because it is only one side of the story.
Because the person getting the poor review has no recourse.
Because it is "guilty by accusation" which offends people who believe in true justice.
Because it will make MM a less friendly place.
Because it is a poor substitute for checking references.
Because people considering the reviewed person might not find the reviews.
Because people giving a bad review will in turn receive bad reviews.
Because a bad review may or may not be true.

There.

So why not make it a positive reviews only system? I'm considering two models. This one has a bunch of positive reviews, that one has no reviews at all. Not perfect, but at least it's something to go on.

John Jebbia wrote:
So why not make it a positive reviews only system? I'm considering two models. This one has a bunch of positive reviews, that one has no reviews at all. Not perfect, but at least it's something to go on.

This.

Portico Photography wrote:
Which brings me to my question. Why don't they have a system here whereby we can "rate" our experience (or lack thereof) with another member of the community. Doesn't have to be difficult -- more like eBay.  Simple criteria. Imagine how far a simple "Didn't show" rating would go. (or, to be fair, "didn't deliver" as well.)

Why not?

(note: while frustrated, not whining -- its a cruel world out there,  and I can take my lumps like a man.)

There is already a system.  Just nobody will tell you about it.   It's because there are two really large families of models.
The "Cancella" family is not the largest.  These girls will at least call or e-mail you (albeit, often at the last minute) to let you know the shoot is off.  The grandmothers in this family have an amazing number of lives, each having died multiple times causing the model to have to cancel the shoot.  This is the family that owns the cats that puke on the rugs at the last minute,

The largest family, though, is the Flakerella family.  It has bizillions of sisters, cousins, and shirt tail relatives.  They are just too busy with their hair, lipstick, underarm deodorants, nails, etc, etc to ever be able to even e-mail or text you that they won't be making an appearance.   

Now, seriously, some good advice has already been given about screening the MM models.  You will also develop your own screening procedures to avoid the Cancella's and the Flakerella's. 

In addition to that you are allowed to have a "Do Not Recommend" list.  Personally, I don't do that.  IMHO, it falls in the guilty by accusation category.   I can see huge liabilities for MM if they officially had such a category or if they booted the "wannabee's".  Plus, getting paid for ads based upon membership is an incentive to not boot anybody that isn't guilty of some egregious violation of the rules.

Gary Livingston wrote:
Require a deposit for a booking. Done. Fixed. No more problems. Especially, for the paltry amount of $30 (half your fee). I don't think anyone would be too scared about losing that much only.

Ummm.....

John Jebbia wrote:
So why not make it a positive reviews only system? I'm considering two models. This one has a bunch of positive reviews, that one has no reviews at all. Not perfect, but at least it's something to go on.

While it might be nice, there are still problems:

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Because it is subject to abuse.
Because we have no reason to believe or disbelieve your assessment.
Because it will cause a hecka lot more work for the moderators.
Because it may make MM more vulnerable to civil disputes.
Because there is no recourse for the person receiving a bad review.
Because it is only one side of the story.
Because the person getting the poor review has no recourse.
Because it is "guilty by accusation" which offends people who believe in true justice.
Because it will make MM a less friendly place.
Because it is a poor substitute for checking references.
Because people considering the reviewed person might not find the reviews.
Because people giving a bad review will in turn receive bad reviews.
Because a bad review may or may not be true.

There.

I'm a big believer in checking references, especially if the person I'm asking for a reference is someone I know.  But failing that, I can glean a lot of information from a model's portfolio.  These things give me a favorable impression:
...  She has a wide variety of photographers represented in her portfolio.
...  She has a wide range of genres & expression.
...  She has been working for at least a few years.
...  She is a successful traveling model.
...  She has very good images in her portfolio.

A "nicey-nice" rating system would be "nice", but it really isn't necessary, and it certainly won't satisfy those photographers who want some kind of system to punish models for not showing up or otherwise disappointing them.

Greg Kolack wrote:
Asking MM to be part of the solution is ironic because its actually a big part of the problem.

Not all of us are experiencing the problems described by the OP.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Not all of us are experiencing the problems described by the OP.

Agreed...

But it has contributed to the wannabes who do flake.

Portico Photography wrote:
Which brings me to my question. Why don't they have a system here whereby we can "rate" our experience (or lack thereof) with another member of the community. Doesn't have to be difficult -- more like eBay.  Simple criteria. Imagine how far a simple "Didn't show" rating would go. (or, to be fair, "didn't deliver" as well.)

Why not?

Well... others replied to you already... and it's like a popping your cherry/initiation thing...

You've made offer for paid gigs and models flaked... that in itself is something that is just weird... most models will jump on the opportunity to make a quick buck and getting images for their port.

Anyway... rating systems for models or photographer's just don't work...

I had to google a suspect photographer and found many complaints, but then within those complaints, he showed his side of the story... and it made sense.

Another member (model) had gotten a really bad review on "ripp-off report" and... wow... then you saw her rebuttle and the people who wrote the negative review were actually vindictive douche-bags... who tried to rip her off... (I know the model)...

So, a he said/she said scenario is pretty bad.

What had been recommended over the years is to put a note on your own MM profile of members "not recommended" for your reasons.

Anyway... just a thought!

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Not all of us are experiencing the problems described by the OP.

Greg Kolack wrote:
Agreed...

But it has contributed to the wannabes who do flake.

Easily addressed -- don't work with wannabes who flake.  If such things bug you, expend a little more effort in your selection criteria.

Portico Photography wrote:
Long time lurker, first time poster.

Just opened my studio. Great location, nice space, dressing room, waiting room. Got it all decked out. Looking to get into the headshot business -- simple and straightforward.

Willing to spend a little dough to build a portfolio, so I run casting calls  -- 3 to be exact. The deal is $60 for one hour of time, headshot work only. I will also give you three shots, retouched, for your port.

With those three calls, I got six appointments. Five have stood me up. Tomorrow morning's has gone radio silent on me.

Which brings me to my question. Why don't they have a system here whereby we can "rate" our experience (or lack thereof) with another member of the community. Doesn't have to be difficult -- more like eBay.  Simple criteria. Imagine how far a simple "Didn't show" rating would go. (or, to be fair, "didn't deliver" as well.)

Why not?

For starters, I sympathize but what you're asking for (accountability) is like pissing into the wind. Those who's its targeted against (cancellations/no-shows on both sides of the camera) aren't going to care what happens what some silly rating system says.

Beyond that, I'm simply going to tell you what has worked for me. Maybe it will for you, maybe not. But hopefully it'll give them something to think about.

1. The $60/hr rate + 2/3 or however many pictures is "eh". After the model has paid for her travel whether its bus, commuter fare, taxi, gas, etc, they'd be barely lucky to have enough to take themselves out to a halfway decent sitdown meal.

I'd try upping your giving rate or simply do a straight TF* so the model MIGHT be able to make it worth their troubles or simply offer that to local models (like students doing it "just for fun").

2. I love MM & everything but the messaging system is still basically the same as it was back in 2004 when I joined. Its a bleepin' TERRIBLE way to communicate, often sluggish, still never know when it'll go down & not be able to access critical information, its a crapshoot whether you'll get "new message" notifications sent to your regular email, among many other things.

If you're able to communicate through other means whether its FB or them giving you their private email, that might be something to think about.

Furthermore their mobile platform (putting it nicely) leaves A LOT to be desired. Despite pleas that the site develop an app for literally years, management is not inclined to do so. It is what it is.

3. Communicate how the newbies prefer to communicate. If its email, do it via email. If its MM, do it via MM. Phone = phone. Etc. Yes, it may be annoying for you but think of it this way, which is more annoying the method or them not showing up?

4. I've found that if people are going to bail or not show up, they probably would have done so regardless of whatever terms you were offering.

5. Public blacklists say more about the person posting them than it does about the person being posted about.

6. If you want to get the low-down on good models, befriend photographers. I can't tell you how many stellar models I've worked with because an acquiantence pointed me in their direction. Models also talk to & point their colleagues in yours.

7. Call or text the night prior to to stay on their radar. I've gotten into the habit of texting "looking forward to working with you tommorrow" that reminds them without explictly reminding them.

8. If I know a model has a kid, a very demanding day-job, a college student of some sort, ongoing medical issues, transportation issues, I tend to be a lot more forgiving than if they didn't. Maybe I'm to nice but I remember all to well how things can spring up on the fly. If they're anything like I was way back when, shooting (or in their case modeling) would have been the LAST thing on my mind.

9. If they cancel, I'll give them one more chance but even if they don't, I've found it an indicator how serious they are about rescheduling if they're proactive in suggesting an alternative date. Why? You may more be into shooting them than they are of you.

10. Do a reference check. MM already makes this easy where if they have pictures on their profile AND they've linked them to the photographer, you can daisychain it back to the photographer & simply ask how the shoot went. Use the "credited photos" link feature in a models port where a photographer has done just that. Other people like myself have created a "list" of all models who have chosen to use my pictures (some fit their ports more than it does mine).

In conclusion, you in no way shape or can't eliminate no-shows/late cancelations but hopefully you can reduce the likelihood of it happening or give you a better sense when it'll happen so (if you're anything like me) can sleep in that morning.

John Jebbia wrote:
So why not make it a positive reviews only system? I'm considering two models. This one has a bunch of positive reviews, that one has no reviews at all. Not perfect, but at least it's something to go on.

We sort of have that.  We can tag each other with compliments.

John Jebbia wrote:
So why not make it a positive reviews only system? I'm considering two models. This one has a bunch of positive reviews, that one has no reviews at all. .

This would not have solved the problem that the OP is ranting about. So a model has five positive reviews you see and 37 photographers who hate her guts that you don't see. So this system wouldn't change anything, now would it?

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Photographers working with amateur talent will always have to deal with last minute cancellations, no-shows, flakes and bs.   Paying may help but it is part of how things are.   You can do all the reference checks you want because those you are likely to hear from will be positive.   After all she/he showed for them.   How will you know who she/he didn't show for.   Last year a model who had flaked on me once and had called off last minute came through.   Pretty girl.   She had a lot of things with her and I said wow you brought your whole closet.   She confessed she had had no real stable place to live.   Many young people are just getting going in life.   Many don't see photo shoots as important as this is largely more hobby then career.   A member pointed out that $60.00 per hour wasn't much with travel, etc.   Lets understand that minimum wage is under $10.00 per hour so $60.00 for a hour of a models time, heck even two is great cash.

My tips:   Don't take any of this personally.  This isn't a date.   People flake or cancel last minute all over the world.   Even agency models do it.   There is nothing wrong with asking other photographers but their experience may only be unique to them and do you really want to do that with every new model.   Don't book studio time or MUA or take off work or drive long distances for models you don't know.   If you are trying to shoot fashion or commercial work then take your book to a real world modeling agency for tests.   Even if they refuse to send you talent its worth the attempt.   Nothing wrong with looking on websites for new faces but agencies are where you should go once you have a solid book and especially a real world studio.

Right on, Tony!  Over the years, I've kept posting revised versions of my "reduces flakes ..."  tips in hopes of helping others.  I say "reduces" because we all know that it is impossible to avoid all flakes from happening.  Most of the time, I can spot a flake before I even get as far as booking a date, time & venue with them.  Those models that don't confirm the most vital of information over the phone with me will not be considered booked, and therefore no flaking can happen.  Models who have confirmed are on the calendar with me, and little communication is needed until the day or night before when I like to send a text or make a short call to remind/confirm once again our appointment to shoot.  If I don't get a reply or not able to reach the model, I'll still consider it booked, however ... I'm going to have a back up plan just in case.   I don't take it personal, and most who've not been able to make it have at least called to cancel.  I've been very fortunate that not very many models have flaked on me.   Reviews would be worthless in all those cases.

The vast majority of models I've worked with are available for me to work with again because once they've done that first shoot with me, the trust and confidence level has increased.  I'm more likely to invite models I've worked with before to shoot paying gigs in the future.  I've had so few models flake on me that I can remember each and everyone, and count those who have done a "no show/no call" on just one hand for my entire career of 30 years.  It's because I do care about people that I at least try to find out later what happened.  There is one "no show/no call" that still haunts me to this day.  I wonder if I had something to do with her disappearance.  Here is what happened ....

Early in 2006, I was getting a team of models together to work my booth for the HIN car show season.  Through one of the models who worked at a retail clothing store with her, I was introduced to a beautiful young Iranian woman.  She had a boyfriend who was a handsome match for her, and together they made a most attractive couple.  Being that I have covered Iranian Festivals in the past, I'm familiar and respectful towards Eastern cultures and the Muslin faith in general.  This couple seemed Westernized however.  She brought with her some clothing which included lingerie that would be of Victoria's Secret standards and was not hesitant to pose in any of her more revealing clothing.  I've always enjoyed shooting good looking couples with the thought of commercial value for such images, so I asked if he'd like to join her in some of the those pictures.   Again, there was no hesitation, and he eagerly involved himself in making great pictures with her as a "real life" loving couple that they were. 

This couple seemed fine with the images I shot.  Now here comes the mystery!  The Iranian model was a complete no show/no call for the car show!  Fortunately I over book the number of models I need for events, so I didn't miss her that day.  After that car show, I had a chance to try getting a hold of her again.  No dice!  So I asked her friend (a model who did show up that day) that had introduced her to me for any word about what happened.  She told me that her grandfather had become suddenly ill and that she had to leave the country.  At least that is what this young woman had told the store she worked at with my other model.  I can't help but wonder ... did grandpa become ill because his grand daughter became Westernized posing with her boyfriend?   I hope not!   But you are correct in saying not to take it personal, Tony!

Rays Fine Art wrote:
There are those who will disagree with me but I find that the best way to avoid flakes is to communicate fully, promptly and most of all personally with your partner whichever side of the camera you're on.  Face-to-face if possible but if not, at least by telephone.  A casting notice is a cold, impersonal thing but once the other guy recognizes you as a real person I find that they are much less likely to flake.  Even in a preliminary PM or Email it doesn't hurt to personalize it with a positive comment on the other guy's portfolio or a question about that sorts of things the other person likes to shoot.  People are much less likely to flake when a personal connection has been established.

And listen, really listen, to the other person- - - Is (s)he forthcoming, enthusiastic, positive sounding about the project, or lackadaisical?  If the latter, it may be time to cut bait and move on to the next prospect.  If (s)he has a suggestion or a request to shoot something you haven't thought of (or even don't particularly want to do) maybe you could sweeten the deal by expanding the shoot to include the idea.  What could it hurt, after all, and it might reduce the chance of a no-show.

And for those times when nothing works, I keep a bowl of wax fruit and a little Victorian statuette in my studio.  It reminds me that I always have the upper hand---the model can't model without the photographer but the photographer can always photograph without the model.  Not much comfort, maybe, but some.

All IMHO as always, of course.

^^  I agree completely with this ... your humble opinion.  ^^

WIP wrote:
There is a forum post where a photographer stated he'd only be shooting older models and this maybe the issue with the new influx and generation of younger models who have no self respect nor respect for anyone else.

Welcome to a new world of I can't be bothered.

^^ What you are demonstrating is called ageism, and it is wrong!  ^^

I know that there are plenty of younger people who are respectful towards others time and will not flake on you.  Then I also know older people who "can't be bothered" and will flake on you.

WIP wrote:
There is a forum post where a photographer stated he'd only be shooting older models and this maybe the issue with the new influx and generation of younger models who have no self respect nor respect for anyone else.

Welcome to a new world of I can't be bothered.

How does that explain older photographers flaking, ignoring emails, canceling at the last second, being complete dicks for no other reason than to attempt to make theirs grow...

Age doesn't equal mature.

DEP E510 wrote:

DEP E510 wrote: