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Models for TF, not easy to find
Fellow MM'ers. I have a hard time to get any interest in any TF based shoots, doesn't matter if it is for charity or other use. I have had a number of projects with all sorts of different themes, all with the same outcome. On the other hand I get asked frequently if I can't shoot TF, which I do, so what is the difference? No model seem to pay any attention to projects that doesn't pay, and then they will ask for free services themselves. This is sometimes frustrating as I'm not in charge of the whole project, only parts of it. Is this a normal occurrence or is it only in my area? Curious to know. Apr 05 15 11:58 am Link Sorry for you difficulties. Modeling rates (and photographer rates) are subject to the local supply & demand. Perhaps that's what's at play here? Sounds like you have projects, with clients. Models might assume that you are getting compensated for these projects, and they might be wondering why you get paid but they don't. Or perhaps they don't feel that their usage of your images is sufficient compensation for their modeling? Hey, perhaps you need to consider paying models? Apr 05 15 12:08 pm Link Wait... I don't understand. So, you're saying that models won't do trade with you, but then they will? Or is it really just that you're complaining the models YOU want to shoot for trade aren't interested? Apr 05 15 12:36 pm Link I frequently pay models for projects that have a budget for it. But some are not organized by me so I can't use money that are not there. So any casting for TF shoots get no love at all. So I'm not picking the model, I just put out a general casting open to anyone. In comparison all my paid castings generate a lot of interest. I get asked by models if I can't help them out by shooting TF, and I do quite frequently. I'm just curious to figure out if it is just so that models are expecting to get compensated when photographers want to shoot and not compensate photographer when they want to shoot. Apr 05 15 12:48 pm Link LarsN photography wrote: I would arrange with models that if you shoot them TF then they will need to shoot trade with you for one of your projects. There is nothing wrong with Quid Pro Quo Apr 05 15 12:56 pm Link Most models come and go on here without ever updating their ports. You just explained why. Many pretend to want to create something when really they are on here only to sell their "beauty " for $$$. Apr 05 15 01:04 pm Link LarsN photography wrote: The common explanation is supply and demand, but that isn't valid as far as I'm concerned. It's really about Want and Need. Sure lots of models Want to shoot, but they don't Need to. The photographer Needs a model. That allows the model to take advantage. If you were in a room with 50 models and announced an opportunity to shoot, not one of them Needs you. They could all just sit and say Meh. But you need one of them, so you'll put in more effort. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a bountiful supply of models who really wanted to shoot, like they needed it? But sadly, that's not the case. There's nothing evil or devious going on. Apr 05 15 01:04 pm Link LarsN photography wrote: Yes, models only do TFP when there is something in it for them. That is the nature of the thing. Apr 05 15 01:48 pm Link Pictures of Life wrote: Well said! Apr 05 15 01:51 pm Link Every ones time has value. If you can produce photo's a model wants they will trade (TF) if they find no value in your photo's expect to pay. Apr 05 15 02:05 pm Link I believe it is supply and demand of which want and need is a part. What I've seen in my area since joining MM is that number of photographers wanting to shoot TF (or even reasonable rates) has been increasing more than incoming models. From what I see many who fill out model profiles have no real interest in modeling, but simply want to be able to tell their friends they're a model. Also at play is the ease and acceptance of cell phone selfless which lowers the demand for TF images. Also consider the message that comes across in many of the model rate threads. Many of those can lead new models to believe they should be able to commend $100/hour right off the bat. I've come across many models who repeatedly turn down reasonable offers, and just fade away never getting what they have come to believe they are worth. Off course MM now being owned by a bulletin board company has absolutely no vested interest in models and photographers actually getting together to shoot. All they care about is membership fees and numbers. Apr 05 15 02:06 pm Link Pictures of Life wrote: I totally agree on that. At first I wanted to suggest it could be the projects that are not interesting for the models. But supporting children's charity calendar sounds interesting, even though the photos might not be what models on mm are looking for. And as Risen Phoenix Photo said, you could always arrange trades that include "working" for one of your projects in return for a TF shoot the way the model wants. Apr 05 15 02:24 pm Link The simple answer is usually the right one. "I have boobs, give me free stuff" Apr 05 15 02:36 pm Link Aurigraphy wrote: Whilst I have done modelling work to raise funds for charities, I'm often wary of it. If I were to consider a charity shoot I would question both the charity itself and if there wasn't some better place for the money to go, and the likely benefit to the charity and if there wasn't some better way to raise money. Generally I would just avoid them as there are more efficient and direct uses of my time that can benefit charities than the sort of charity shoots that are arranged on sites such as this. Apr 05 15 03:25 pm Link Abbitt Photography wrote: Yep and a lot of models can't tell the difference in quality of an image. Apr 05 15 03:48 pm Link WIP wrote: Very true. Apr 05 15 04:12 pm Link JadeDRed wrote: I am probably not going to do a charity shoot unless I happen to know the photographer personally. I am not interested in a calendar, charity or not. Why not do ONE shoot that includes something you want to do and something the model wants to do? I've done TF but the photographers approached me, I didn't approach them. 2 out of 3 times I got something of value in return. TF often takes a whole lot of time on the part of both parties. It's not something I would agree to lightly. Apr 05 15 04:25 pm Link I have worked with models who I felt I'd never use their images. Sometimes to help them and many times because I enjoy trying to create art. In contrast many of the models who join sites like MM are focused primarily on making money. I'm not faulting that view but its unfortunate in my opinion. You have to seek out those rare models who enjoy being a part of your work regardless of payment. Years past I was in NY and met a Elite model. She had her book with her. Beautiful woman. I gave her my hotel information and she called the next day ready to shoot. This when she had NOT seen any of my work. My demonic ex-wife put a stop to the shoot. What's interesting to me is how many models claim to be dedicated and passionate about fashion and modeling yet never shoot. Never update their profiles. How is it you love a thing but will only do it when someone pays you. OP, cast a larger net. Use Facebook and Craigslist. I note you are shooting MM models. It is what it is. Apr 05 15 04:30 pm Link The honest answer is you will simply have to pay models of the caliber you want to build your portfolio until it gets better and you are more successful. Only a high quality portfolio will get you to the high level clients and publication success that will bring you better TF talent. Obviously-what you are doing now will not accomplish that. Apr 05 15 05:05 pm Link In regard to have a portfolio filled with 'high quality' caliber talent. When I joined in 2005 their was a member who was well published and shot NY agency models. I emailed her via her website and I she replied. She wanted to play it forward and give back. After a few weeks she pulled her membership. We spoke and after a few flakes she moved on. This is a woman who has fantastic work. This a person any sane model wanting better images should beg borrow or steal to shoot with. Having what could considered great photos often means little to models who are focused on what they are being paid or not. One of the best commercial shooters here once said. MM is full of irresponsible dreamers. The sad truth is Richard Avedon could have had a profile on MM and models would reply with interested and how much are you paying. MM and sites like it are mostly filled with amateur talent. Your work often matters less then you think. Its your wallet that the vast majority are focused on. Apr 05 15 05:59 pm Link I have started to move away from MM and seek more collaborations by Facebook and other venues, with much better luck. It seems here that a lot of the models believe they are worth $100/hr even with little to no experience. I have even had one model tell me that she needed to get copies of select images for her portfolio because she was missing this style. What, I was going to pay her for her portfolio photos - don't think so. In regards to your work portfolio I have had very few actually ask for or even look at previous work, only concern is the rate I'm willing to pay. The charity stuff I shoot every year with some other photographers is well explained to the models and we always shoot with proceeds to Children's Christmas Toy Drive. Last year we had to do a second print run as we ran out mid December, which is great. I have worked with some great talent on MM but my experience is that I have had more cancellations, late arrivals and no-shows with MM models that from other places. But, I have been left hanging twice when I booked through an agency for a specific project, so this can happen even when you think you are good to go. Sucks when you have booked location and arranged for MUA. In conclusion I think it might be the demand-supply situation as so many people have picked up photography over the last few years and the ratio to models is to the advantage of the models. And I have to say that there are a number of people on MM that is not at all focused on modeling, but they have a profile on MM that they can show to their friends, some with no intentions of having a strong portfolio and pursue modeling. And then we have the "person with camera" situation on the other side, not easy this stuff  Apr 05 15 06:29 pm Link LarsN photography wrote: That seems to be where it's at FB.... groups have formed and distanced themselves from MM. Apr 06 15 03:22 am Link I think it's a matter of offer and demand. Models will work on TF if the project is valuable for their portfolio, and, personally, I don't see the point in doing by TF some shoot I already have on my port. Many people confuse TF with "shooting for free" and that's completely wrong. If I were you I would offer this project to models who don't have those kind of shots on their ports and, therefore, would benefit from shooting on TF with you. Cheers! Laura Apr 06 15 05:19 am Link LauraLuna wrote: Works both ways. Apr 06 15 06:10 am Link WIP wrote: True. And it also works for MUAs. Apr 06 15 06:27 am Link WIP wrote: Neither can "photographers" It goes both ways Apr 06 15 07:00 am Link Erlinda wrote: True. Apr 06 15 07:12 am Link your mileage may vary but i've always found that money really helps with their motivation. also getting to know them and having them in your circle of facebook friends. Apr 06 15 09:23 am Link Opportunities are where we find them. Often it has nothing to do with money, but with finding kindred spirits who want to explore possibilities and make art. Others are trying to build a business. Every spring there's a new crop of spring chickens who are curious and want to try modeling. This situation existed in the 60's and it exists in the same way today. They want to explore and meet people who can help them. Others are hard boiled eggs who have been doing this for many years, and have no interest in accumulating more free photos from amateurs that look like thousands of pictures they already have. Their purpose might be to build their business as professionals selling a service, book their schedules tight and try to survive by what they have learned to do. There's a lid for every pot. Everyone is on a different timeline or a different part of their learning curve. Cast a wider net. Search other forums or venues for people with similar interests. Draw upon people who might like to try modeling from places that are not already defined as modeling/photographer sites. Find people who have interests and abilities that align with your own. Money is only one element in all of this. There are many other motivating factors. If we are starving artists with no money spend then that may be a parameter within which we will have to work. There are still rich light and photo opportunities everywhere around us for exploring ideas and practicing our skill sets. If we have some extra money, time, equipment, rich locations, excellent props, ideas or talent to share, it's a good thing to help others who are not in a position to contribute as much into the exchange as you can, except what they have by nature, motivated interest and their personalities. Seek out rich lighting and imaginative rendering of fun ideas with people who also want to be creative, or who want to help and encourage you with your ambitions. Build from there. In the meantime, keep working on improving your images with new techniques.  Apr 06 15 09:55 am Link Jerry Nemeth wrote: Yep, I have terrible nightmare in regards to the shite I produce. Apr 06 15 10:50 am Link WIP wrote: We appreciate your honesty. Apr 06 15 11:17 am Link Jerry Nemeth wrote: Jerry if you'd have assisted the photographers I had you'd be saying the same. Apr 06 15 12:54 pm Link Risen Phoenix Photo wrote: Agree! I know I have a 'wish list' of concepts I'd love to do. If there was a photographer willing to shoot one of these for me, I'd gladly trade for shooting one of theirs. Apr 06 15 03:57 pm Link I am in your area and I generally find that if I approach a model directly instead of posting a casting call I get a better response. In general I find that most times I approach a model to shoot things go well and the shoot happens as planned, but very recently (2015) I have had a higher than usual number of last minute cancellations or conversations about shoots that don't materialize. It hasn't been significant enough to conclude that things are different and/or more difficult than before, but I have noticed an increase lately. I have never hired a model on MM. All of my MM portfolio has been done TF so I can't compare success of paid vs. TF arrangements. There are a couple of Facebook groups here in Ottawa that seem to have some decent amount of activity, but I have generally preferred to contact models through MM and find that it is the same group of models on Facebook and MM. I used to organize larger shoots involving hairstylists, wardrobe designers, MUA and models, but found that getting all those schedules to align and have everyone show up was difficult so I have simplified it to shoot just with a model or model + MUA when the concept requires it. Perhaps contacting models directly by PM may get you better results than a general casting call? Apr 06 15 04:07 pm Link LarsN photography wrote: Perhaps it's time for a little introspection here instead of ranting that models you want to work with won't work with you? Maybe it's not them, it's you? This is hard for many people's ego but have you actually bothered to think about that? Maybe it's your portfolio? Maybe it's your method of communication with them? It could be a lot of factors, but if you are approaching models asking them to trade, the reason you are being declined is because they see the value of the trade as being lopsided in your favor. They see the exchange of work as them providing a greater level of value to the project than you are offering, so as such, they decline. The solution to this problem is to offer them something they DO value...money is typically the easy solution to this issue. Apr 07 15 04:00 am Link it will depend on the quality of your images as well....just because you can hold a camera doesn't mean they need to do TFP...they check a port out and see if you have added value to their port (don't forget, they have every day dozens of requests).....so you need to stand out!! the best way to get TFP models is to make images that are exceptional enough in quality, theme compared to 80% here on MM... Herman www.hermanvangestel.com Apr 08 15 12:54 pm Link LarsN photography wrote: I have not seen your work and I do not imply anything. In general, improving one's work is the best bet. Apr 08 15 01:34 pm Link LarsN photography wrote: My take on it is as follows. #1., and you make my point for me, in that everyone views Tee Eff as being "free" AKA "void of value". Until they want something, so they'll ask for it for "free". I have a long ranty opinion about use of the term "Tee Eff Peepee" and my not using it, so I'll drop the rant now. I'm understanding you to be asking about a "Trade Shoot" scenario, or at least that's what I'm responding to. Disclaimer: I am not an expert, nor do I claim to be. Anyone who questions the weight of my opinion(s) is free to validate my words based upon their review of my work (website) – which may/may not be supportive. Apr 08 15 06:53 pm Link I think as a model , I do not have any qualms about a TF based shoot. The only thing is that if the photographer is willing to give me paid assignments in the future , it will be a win win situation for both Apr 09 15 01:01 am Link Dipty wrote: That's a "Test Shoot", not a trade shoot. The OP was specifically referring to a trade shoot, where he wanted to trade xxx for modelling service in order that they both conduct a photoshoot together resulting in photos they could both use for self-promo online/wtvr. (I'm not aware of his specific terms, nor does it matter) Disclaimer: I am not an expert, nor do I claim to be. Anyone who questions the weight of my opinion(s) is free to validate my words based upon their review of my work (website) – which may/may not be supportive. Apr 09 15 04:34 pm Link |
