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TFP etiquette?
Hey MM'ers, I'm relatively new to MM and I've reached out to many models offering TFP work with them. I've had some great experiences and met some incredible people, but lately it seems that for the past month every shoot that I've set up literally at the last hour all of a sudden get's "sick" and cancels or simply stops returning emails. Now I understand TFP is simply "trade", but is this a common thing that I simply need to suck it up on? I try to be as respectful as possible to anyone that I'm considering shooting with and I request on my profile that they do the same. I guess I simply didn't know what to expect. Not upset or anything, but it does get a bit frustrating putting shot boards together, talking for days about looks, locations, concepts only to have them bail at the last minute. Are there any other things I should be aware of prior to shooting any TFP work? I have releases, and if they're under 18 I alway expect a parent present. Aside from that any input? Thanks fam. Dec 21 15 09:24 am Link I blame this on Wal Mart. Dec 21 15 09:49 am Link RobOnekeaPhotography wrote: Yep. Dec 21 15 09:54 am Link You need to understand that the majority of people on MM, both models and photographers are not professionals and they act accordingly. It's very common for models to flake on a TF shoot because the reality is that they have no real incentive to show up. Models do on occasion flake on paid shoots as well but you have a much better chance of the model showing up if the shoot is paid and you're dealing with a pro that makes her living modeling. Models that flake on TF shoots are very common so you just need to accept it and move on. Just exercise caution if you're setting up a TF shoot and you're also planning to rent studio space for the shoot or employ the services of a MUA since you will likely have to pay for those services even if the model flakes. Dec 21 15 10:03 am Link Well, yeah, you could stop embracing the MM hobbyist paradigm, by discontinuing the use of the word "TFP". MM models often equate that with freebie photoshoots - and it's understandable that someone who feels they are offering a freebie wouldn't feel the same obligation to be responsible. Dec 21 15 10:04 am Link Being still fairly new to MM, my whole intention was to get better at shooting, posing, lighting, etc. and see it as a win-win for most aspiring models. I guess because my first TFP shoot I did was phenomenal and the model was on time, easy to work with, and communication was great. I throw out castings every so often, and get a decent amount of responses, I guess as I progress I just need to suck it up and not take it personal. Still gonna push on though! Dec 21 15 10:10 am Link RobOnekeaPhotography wrote: It's usually not personal, just a by product of dealing with unprofessional people. Dec 21 15 10:14 am Link This is the holiday season and people get busy. Key is never take or make it personal. You are shooting so clearly you're doing something right and by the way that engagement shot is great. Whenever models flake or cancel last minute I reflect on those who have driven hours to work with me TF or those who have posed nude in filthy bug infested old buildings. When you aren't paying people they may decide that photos alone aren't worth it. So anything that sounds like more fun means your shoot is canceled. At least their calling to say so. A few tips. Look at the last time they've updated their profile. Always get a phone number. Listen carefully to how they respond to questions. Do they seem engaged and excited or indifferent. Personally I've found models who want to shoot will write and come out within a week or so of contacting me or my writing them. Sometimes models don't have easy transportation so meeting them close to their homes is helpful. A few bucks can also go a long way toward having models show. $10.00 or $20.00 per hour for example. Hook up with a local MUA or two. Fashion shows are also a good place to meet new faces. In any case its not you. Dec 21 15 10:18 am Link RobOnekeaPhotography wrote: Some models find this off-putting. RobOnekeaPhotography wrote: Work with her again. Dec 21 15 10:38 am Link Top Gun Digital wrote: This all the way. And you know what has happened to me. While I know Models have other things to do, like working at wal mart or the piggly wiggly...Should it take 7 days to hit me back? When I am trying to plan and execute a shoot, with locations and whatnots, things change..and to hit me back 7 days later...well it just don't fly well...And This... Dec 21 15 10:39 am Link There's never an excuse to be rude. I agree with the comment that most people here are not professionals but that's not an excuse to not return an email or a call when you set up a shoot. If it's not important to you, don't waste someone's time by booking a shoot. OP, like you, I've met some great people through MM and have also done the whole "Will you please take pics of me but I won't even return your call that day" routine. It does get frustrating but your work speaks for itself and towards your ability. Anymore, when things start getting frayed, I thank a model for his or her time and move on to a great shoot with another. Since you have shot with some beautiful people, talk with them. After each shoot, I pass along an extra business card and ask the model to give it to a friend. This has worked well for me in that people normally hang with like minded people so that chances of getting someone who no shows you is more limited. Best wishes in all you do. Keep shooting, truly like your work. Dec 21 15 10:47 am Link Actually, people often post the 'Next' comment as a way of dealing with divas or no-shows, or whatever, but sometimes I wonder if there are sufficient real models on MM for there to be enough nexts. I don't mind people not responding to initial enquiries - it's their loss, not mine (is what I tell myself) - but going through the motions of discussing the shoot and then just not finally fixing the date and time, that's a complete waste of time. Dec 21 15 10:49 am Link I don't think it's so much TFP etiquette as it is the difference between agency models and independents. Agencies need to show they are reliable. If an agency model routinely cancels or flakes, even for test shoots, the agency will likely drop her. The same simply is not true of independent models, especially those who are likely to accept TF. If an MM model flakes on you (TF or paid), odds are most other photographers will never know and it will have little bearing on her future ability to line up shoots. Of course if the model has lost interest in modeling, then there is no consequence at all. Realize anyone can fill out a MM model profile on a whim and lose all interest in a matter of days. Some fill out MM profiles simply so they can tell all their friends they are a model, with no real interest of ever shooting with someone they don't personally know. While I still get more cancellations than I would like, here's some things I've found very helpful: 1. I get a phone number. Models who think they may flake will reluctant to give their phone number. A model is considering flaking will be less likely to do so if she knows the photographer will call asking why she's late. 2. I no longer chase models who drop communications. Obviously they are not very interested, and even if I get them engaged again, there's a good chance they will cancel. 3. I do an email confirmation 2-3 days before and a phone confirmation one hour prior. I'm not going to line up a new model in this time frame, but at least I'm not wasting my time setting up my home studio, and sitting around wondering if the model will show. 4. I never invest anything I'm not happy to lose in shoots with independents. I don't rent studio space, I don't forgo other important opportunities and don't invest any notable money. I have an alternative use for my time. A couple years ago, I got very frustrated with model cancelations and flaking and took half a year off shooting models. With the above policies, I now have no real flaking, less cancelations and much less frustration. Dec 21 15 11:02 am Link In order to persuade people to work with you as a TF* assignment, you first have to have something that it worth their time in doing. This could be simply upgrading what they already have in their portfolio. Could be a out-of-the-oridinary idea. Could be a creative team behind you. Their reasons in working with you might have ZILCH to do with you bring to the table but of them simply having the time. If the TF* thing isn't working for you & people keep bailing, try doing a Zip Code radius search of your area for models travel. You'll probably have to pay but its a small price in comparison to the lost time you're getting w/ other models bailing at the last minute. Dec 21 15 11:15 am Link RobOnekeaPhotography wrote: Speaking personally, my general rule of thumb: "Don't invest a lot of time, energy, and/or money in a shoot with a new-to-you model", and that goes doubly for TF* situations. I figure that if the project requires "shot boards" and "talking days", I should be paying the model. But that's just me. Dec 21 15 12:15 pm Link RobOnekeaPhotography wrote: Internet models suck, but you can cut your losses to minimal if you pay attention to the obvious. Dec 21 15 12:48 pm Link J O H N A L L A N wrote: You could always say "Test" instead but be aware that there is a subtle difference of purpose between a true "Test" and a true "TFP", if nothing else than that it's not unreasonable to expect at least the possibility of a paid shoot coming out of a successful "Test", whereas in a true "TFP" the only goal for either party is the pictures produced, together with a learning experience and with luck, a pleasant social interchange. Dec 21 15 06:50 pm Link I've been doing TFP for many years. I've posted my 'rule' a few times on this forum. I have found that most shoots that a TFP model agrees to do will be in 72 hours if possible and always by the coming weekend. If weather is not an issue and the shoot does not occur it will not and some models change it to a 'rolling cancellation' where they will apologize and swear next weekend will work and then just do it again the next weekend or cut off contact with the photographer. One model that is in my area got me for six weekends in a row many years ago. She has been on MM for years and NEVER had any new shots in her profile. A serious model will want YOUR contact information. They will confirm the shoot. A flake will not. I still do TFP but any sign of flaking and I drop the model and move on. Dec 21 15 07:14 pm Link A MM model would contact me every few months and then flake for sessions. No big deal to be candid but she did finally come through and I asked her what the deal was. She confessed that she was staying with friends and had no stable place to stay. This was kinda confirmed by her having two massive suitcases and a laptop with her. Her not showing wasn't about me at all. Yes, she should have let me know she couldn't come. However my guess is she had more pressing things on her mind. Lets turn this around. If someone asked you to shoot their home for free. Even if they had a cool home and a friend mentioned going to a party or doing something that sounded like more fun. What would you do? A few days ago a MM model hit me up for a casting I have for a small cosmetic website. Its photos and products only. She didn't follow up after her few texts that she would come this past weekend. I wrote her here once Friday to remind her. It is what it is. I'm not paying for this project. I also understand what MM is and isn't. Dec 21 15 07:40 pm Link Top Gun Digital wrote: True. Models do on occasion flake on paid shoots as well but you have a much better chance of the model showing up if the shoot is paid and you're dealing with a pro that makes her living modeling. NOT true. Dec 21 15 07:40 pm Link When I joined MM there was a member who's style I thought I knew. I wrote her via her website and I was correct. She is a well known NY fashion shooter who has been published extensively. She told me she wanted to give back. After a few weeks I noted she was gone. I asked her what was going on and she said she had moved on after a few flakes. If a fantastic shooter with published work has problems then what might happen to us mere mortals. A member mentioned having a good enough concept and frankly given most of the dreck shown on MM. I think the average model has no idea what good means. Concepts mean little as well. Look, we aren't talking about signed agency models with solid books and tears. There is often not so subtle digs at photographers who bring up this as a problem. This is a amateur networking website. Most of the models could never be signed by any agency and tend to post a few photos then largely quit after a few weeks. Sometimes they'll show and sometimes they won't and it wouldn't matter if you were the second coming of Richard Avedon or Helmut Newton. Dec 21 15 08:09 pm Link RobOnekeaPhotography wrote: It's very common for models to cancel shoots this time of the year.I don't even try to shoot this late in the year unless it's someone I've shot with a few times before. I'm serious! Blame it on the holidays. I managed a popular band and even though they could have made bigger pay checks, they insisted I not book them this time of the year. So keep your expectations low, and be pleasantly surprised when they do come through. Dec 21 15 08:22 pm Link It's quite common for the inexperienced/non-serious ladies to bail out of shoots last minute. The experienced models will at least offer a few days worth of notice in advance or may recommend another person. Double book models: at best you will have two for working with and at worst you'll still have a model. Dec 29 15 09:03 am Link It happens to models by photographers as well, as a reminder - be it last minute cancellations, short-notice arrangements, no-shows and so forth. I'll ignore the post about non-agency signed models not being up to scratch; speaking as someone who cannot be signed to a mainstream agency due to a lack of height, it has no impact on the standard of professionalism that I still hold myself to. I expect that with other models with the same lack of inches problem, they might encounter the same, aka not being treated as serious. What I have found helps; - email a week prior to the shoot as a reminder -email a day or two before the shoot -contact the morning of the shoot Does urgent real life come up? Sure. Do those happenings take priority over a shoot? They have. Isn't anything that can be done about that. But it isn't only models that do it so, the subject could really be expanded to people within the creative/collaborative spectrum in general rather than just always referring to models. Dec 29 15 09:24 am Link I know I am old school and live by the golden rule of "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you". IT's called "R-E-S-P-E-C-T". Things happen in everyone's life but in today's world of hi-tech communications, there is little excuse for not letting the person know you can't make it. I have and show respect for the people I collaborate with. Everyone's time is equally as valuable as the others. I come up with a concept, post a casting call, research swipe, go through everyones portfolio that replied "interested", make contact, set dates to see if you are available and still interested, make up a mood board, co-ordinate everyone's schedules for the shoot, set up lighting, etc. The MUAs and Hair artists spend time creating ideas that will work well with my concept. Hopefully the model will understand the "mood" I'm looking to create and work on expressions and poses. A lot of effort goes into a photoshoot. I learned to book a back-up model. If all goes well and everyone shows up, we all get some really good images to add to our portfolios. I work with both experienced and newbie models and for the most part have had really good experiences. (I hope that continues ;-) Dec 29 15 09:57 am Link I am responding to a comment. There are lots of professional non agency signed MM models. They show up on time, look great, follow up, return calls and are a joy to shoot and work with. Sadly they are a minority here. Judge that by the multiple threads started by frustrated shooters. While many were offering TF some have found flakes for paid work. My guess is some photographers here are unprofessional. My experience is that most follow through, respond to emails from models and are ready to shoot. Some of that is because we tend to be older and have invested time and money into our craft vs. models most of whom never graduate past selfies. Key is to not take anything personally. If you are a serious model who shows up TF or not, great. I assure you that many simply do not. Dec 29 15 01:03 pm Link OP...that is how it goes. Lots of dreamers, wannabes and flakes nowadays. (That goes for both models and photogs.) Recently I shot a project about a transwoman. nsfw https://danielteolijr.wordpress.com/201 … rag-queen/ I interviewed 21+ trans gals from ads. The shoot involved nudes, but no porn. I would have hired every one of them. The pay was $400- $500 a day or $80 to $100 an hour. They all said they wanted the job...but in the end they ALL flaked out except 1. That is pretty poor results...and that is with paying cash. I'm looking for a few months for a lesbi couple, a breast feeding mom and an alternative model....Nothing. Most of my work does not involve hiring models, but every once in a while I need a model, or more like access to a lifestyle. I'm glad I deal mainly in candid's, dealing with people is a pain. Dec 30 15 09:55 am Link It's definitely annoying. I learned very quickly, not to go too far out of my way for TFP shoots for new models (new to me, not necessarily new models), I seldom (if ever) bring in an MUA for a first shoot, or arrange anything from any of the designers I use, or plan out a location shoot even. If they can't make it to the studio to shoot to begin with, then I'm not going to put all that time and effort into something that's not going to happen anyway. I regularly tell new models that ask for MUA's etc, that I don't do that for a first shoot. Been burned enough to know what's a waste of time now. Spending 3 hours in a studio waiting for a model that hasn't bothered to text she's not coming, even though she confirmed the day of the shoot already, is a far too common occurrence with amateur models. Dec 30 15 12:28 pm Link I'd recommend trying alternative sources.. Instagram and FB are awfully successful! I mainly come on here to read these forums.. they're super informative and helpful, especially the archived ones! Dec 30 15 12:39 pm Link I've been going nuts with flakey models! I know they are not professional models, but what kind of PERSON bails on an appointment without warning? Does that PERSON behave the same way with the doctor, dentist or barber/salon? Being considerate and showing respect to others is a HUMAN thing. If people on this site can't live up to a certain standard, can we weed them out? I like the "verification" idea but we still have a problem, Houston. I sent out 3 of these things to models I like working with and only one responded! Can we start a forum where we post the names of these knuckleheads? Yeah, I'm pretty fed up. Eric Feathers Dec 30 15 12:43 pm Link Eric Feathers Photo wrote: I doubt they'd allow it, but if you're on FB, we have a local group for photographers only, to report models doing things like this, and there's also one for models to report photographers being likewise idiotic. Both groups are pretty tightly controlled, ie, only models are allowed in one, and only photographers are allowed in the other. Ppl that do both have to pick one. It works quite well as long as ppl don't rant, which just gets removed by an admin. 99% of posts are "worked with X. was great." or "Tried to work with X, here's what I did, here's what happened, and that's why I won't try and work with him/her again.". Likely your area has something like this too. Dec 30 15 01:12 pm Link For most emerging photographers, it is hard to offer young talent trade shoots that are significantly different than the 100 other options they have every day. Offering paid work, publication, or a very unique concept/location will probably bring you the most success with attracting reliable talent. Dec 31 15 01:37 am Link A lot of good points/advice already given-- This doesn't only happen with models, I'd say in general MM is a site that is often-used by hobbyists so yeah you get a lot of non-professional behaviour from all sides. I'm working on my port right now and have pretty much exclusively shot TFPs with photographers in my area. Like Malifica to prevent flaking and to reassure the photographer I'm not planning on flaking, I'll check in periodically around the date/time of the shoot--typically I'll exchange phone numbers (as it's been pointed out already someone may be less likely to flake if they realize the person they're bailing on can call them up and ask WTF) and text the day before the shoot, "Hey just checking in to make sure we are still on for the shoot tomorrow at --time--". Then the day of I'll say "Hello, see you soon", and as I'm traveling to the location I'll update the photographer on my ETA. Jan 01 16 08:17 pm Link Misconceptions: One: "If your were paying the models, they would behave different." Two: "If it was legit work, they would show up." Three: "If it would benefit them, they would be sure to be there." Four: "If you had a Real Studio, or if it was through an Agency, they would be sure to show up." Five: "Well if it was something like a television commercial for a local car dealer that paid $2,500.00 bucks for the day, the models would never stand you up. Nope, total BS. Well, while some models would kill for that job. The fact is, the two I hired in Corpus Christi, both did a test in a Studio. Both got approved by the Agency, and the Car Dealer. Both agreed to show up on a Saturday, and neither one showed up. He said, "I forgot." She said, "I had to babysit my sisters son." Neither one called to cancel, or answered the phone that day. Neither one was apologetic afterwards. So there you go. You are a legit guy, with talent, who is not trying to get anyone to take their clothes off. When it happens, have a cup of tea, and mutter, "their loss." Or do like I do, go have a beer at some bar, and bitch about it to the pretty girl sitting next to you, and after you buy her a few drinks, she shoots with you in the parking lot. That really happened too. Just don't let it get to you. Jan 01 16 10:04 pm Link I stopped doing TFPs long ago, the outcome was just too unpredictable. When I want a model, I just hire one. On the very rare occasion they cancel at the last minute, I take that money and treat myself to something. Makes me feel all better. Jan 02 16 05:32 pm Link Rays Fine Art wrote: Except that's not what testing is. Jan 02 16 05:40 pm Link |
