WisconsinArt wrote:
Yes, this is yet another rant about the frustration of getting a model to actually do a shoot. You email them with your ideas of what you want to do and they're all excited but then they balk because it's commercial WORK or they don't want to sign a release form because it's suddenly different when their likeness is being "used."

what's wrong with that? they SHOULD balk just because it is "suddenly different". absolutely they should.

basically you have left out:

0. approach model or agency and provide full information about the session and all requirements

when you approach a model you tell them EVERYTHING in advance. there will be no surprises. NOTHING is "suddenly different". plain and simple. when contacting a model the basic facts:

1. How will the images be used?
2. What will they receive in compensation?
3. What must they bring and what condition do you need hair, skin, nails & etc.
4. What do they need to do when they arrive?
5. What date & time and about how long will it take?
6. Do they bring a voucher or do they need to sign a release?

everything is known before they even agree to booking the job. properly choosing and giving the right information to a model is - here it comes - the professional photographer's job.

WisconsinArt wrote:
5. Sign the model release form

My experience has not been like yours. Over the years, I have had one model wanting to alter my release, and one model wanting to see it in advance of the shoot, but no model has ever declined to sign my release.

WisconsinArt wrote:
This is how you become a model:

1. Make arrangements to do a shoot
2. Show up for the shoot, preferably on time
3. Get your picture taken a bunch of times
4. Take the money the photographer pays you
5. Sign the model release form
6. Hang out with the hip and cool people at the post-shoot party


That's all there is to it. I've never had a problem with a model doing #4. It seems #2 and #5 are issues. Amateur models also seem shocked when #6 is not actually true.

The point of this is it seems amateurs think that modeling is being sexy, beautiful, and getting a lot of attention. When I approach models for doing commercial work, it suddenly becomes WORK. It's no longer about living a life of being a Look-At-Me-Hottie.

Sorry. Being a model is WORK. Modeling is not being an Attention Whore where you post a few selfies of you in the mirror with your cell phone wearing a bra and panties so guys will tell you how beautiful you are.

If you want to be a MODEL, then show up and do the WORK.

Yes, this is yet another rant about the frustration of getting a model to actually do a shoot. You email them with your ideas of what you want to do and they're all excited but then they balk because it's commercial WORK or they don't want to sign a release form because it's suddenly different when their likeness is being "used."

Even when it's clothes-on, no wild animals or race cars with no seat belts, they just can't handle the idea of "using" their pictures for regular white bread commercial purposes.

Oh my gosh.. I can see where you went wrong... you neglected to read "The Amateur Photographer's Guide on How to Be a Photographer."

MoRina wrote:

Oh my gosh.. I can see where you went wrong... you neglected to read "The Amateur Photographer's Guide on How to Be a Photographer."

WisconsinArt wrote:
This is how you become a model:

1. Make arrangements to do a shoot
2. Show up for the shoot, preferably on time
3. Get your picture taken a bunch of times
4. Take the money the photographer pays you
5. Sign the model release form
6. Hang out with the hip and cool people at the post-shoot party


That's all there is to it. I've never had a problem with a model doing #4. It seems #2 and #5 are issues. Amateur models also seem shocked when #6 is not actually true.

The point of this is it seems amateurs think that modeling is being sexy, beautiful, and getting a lot of attention. When I approach models for doing commercial work, it suddenly becomes WORK. It's no longer about living a life of being a Look-At-Me-Hottie.

Sorry. Being a model is WORK. Modeling is not being an Attention Whore where you post a few selfies of you in the mirror with your cell phone wearing a bra and panties so guys will tell you how beautiful you are.

If you want to be a MODEL, then show up and do the WORK.

Yes, this is yet another rant about the frustration of getting a model to actually do a shoot. You email them with your ideas of what you want to do and they're all excited but then they balk because it's commercial WORK or they don't want to sign a release form because it's suddenly different when their likeness is being "used."

Even when it's clothes-on, no wild animals or race cars with no seat belts, they just can't handle the idea of "using" their pictures for regular white bread commercial purposes.

Actually if You are paying Her - She could be considered the Pro ( depending on how much she earns ) and ....

well i really dont need to say anything further

MoRina wrote:
Oh my gosh.. I can see where you went wrong... you neglected to read "The Amateur Photographer's Guide on How to Be a Photographer."

Rightgeous

MoRina wrote:
Oh my gosh.. I can see where you went wrong... you neglected to read "The Amateur Photographer's Guide on How to Be a Photographer."

This

Rob Photosby wrote:
My experience has not been like yours. Over the years, I have had one model wanting to alter my release, and one model wanting to see it in advance of the shoot, but no model has ever declined to sign my release.

I think Rob has a point here.

Regarding paid work; if there is low pay and an low amount of pictures for the model there is certainly a reason to check the release a little extra and make restrictions in the release as a model. Also, it may be a reason to jump a shoot with poor conditions if you make more money somewhere else and prices at the local photographer is low. Regarding TF; if there is too much TF and too little paid work it could also be a reason to limit the use in a release to increase paid work. Also if the amount of pictures recieved in a TF is low. Also, there is nothing saying that you can not bring your own release as a model if the release presented is too poor.

The opposite way around; if the models do a poor work, it can also be a reason for restrictions of the pay and photos. What usually counts here is the work recieved from the model and not the status of the model. If the model is married or a student has nothing to do with how a market should work since I presume photographers aren't into charity or that they presume some models are less talented and motivated due to status. Another thing is that distance cost which has nothing to do with the quality of a model.

The hard thing is to find this balance when you have never been working together before. So it is very often preferred to stick to photographers you know. Out of convinience.

One of the first things you get to read on MM is "Where Professional Models Meet Model Photographers". I would say that a title "professional" isn't something you choose by yourself. It is something you achieve from others and have to take good care of. The second, third, fourth..... thing you get to hear on MM is very often that 2 cm, 1 kg or size x will ruin ones career. Sometimes I wonder if it is professionals saying all this without exceptions. You maybe grow untill  5"8" but after certain age you probably start to shrink. That is the normal lifecycle. I had some professionals to explain the fitting model for me. I was told that sizes are very often an average of many models all around the world which one or two fitting models happens to fit in. Very few would cut their legs for a pair of jeans to fit or remove ribs to fit som robot average size x. And is that really something to try to achieve?! The only thing people seems to have in common here on MM is that we all have the intention of becoming professionals which is fair enough I would say.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
This may get me some hate but paying models for pretty pictures  often makes little sense.   Lets be honest thats what is mostly shown on MM.   There is often little difference between a model you pay and those who don't.   In fact studies show that money isn't what motivates us and I've found models who want to work with me for photos are often more attentive and I've had better results from them.    I'm not saying paying models is bad.   Paying for commercial work is fair because you're making money.   Paying  a model for some cool images at the beach with no client, no great clothing doesn't make good financial sense in many cases.


If someone has a look you really like and she/he isn't up for trade.   Nothing wrong with paying but before you do consider what you're doing.   Does that person add real value to your portfolio?   Are you planning to approach paying clients.   The truth of it is most of the people who join MM as models have little desire to make this full time.   Its fun for a short while and they move on.   Never forget where you are at.   This is a site where  unpublished, non standard average looking models with sub par shots ask if they should accept paid work with photographers who don't have good work.    Have fun with this.   If its a serious project or one that pays you then pay your models.

If its mostly about pretty photos then maybe not.    MM is filled with mostly amateur photographers who only showcase their work here.   Some can afford to pay hundreds a day to models for that.   I can't.   Those who can perhaps should.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
This may get me some hate but paying models for pretty pictures  often makes little sense.   Lets be honest thats what is mostly shown on MM.   There is often little difference between a model you pay and those who don't.   In fact studies show that money isn't what motivates us and I've found models who want to work with me for photos are often more attentive and I've had better results from them.    I'm not saying paying models is bad.   Paying for commercial work is fair because you're making money.   Paying  a model for some cool images at the beach with no client, no great clothing doesn't make good financial sense in many cases.


If someone has a look you really like and she/he isn't up for trade.   Nothing wrong with paying but before you do consider what you're doing.   Does that person add real value to your portfolio?   Are you planning to approach paying clients.   The truth of it is most of the people who join MM as models have little desire to make this full time.   Its fun for a short while and they move on.   Never forget where you are at.   This is a site where  unpublished, non standard average looking models with sub par shots ask if they should accept paid work with photographers who don't have good work.    Have fun with this.   If its a serious project or one that pays you then pay your models.

If its mostly about pretty photos then maybe not.    MM is filled with mostly amateur photographers who only showcase their work here.   Some can afford to pay hundreds a day to models for that.   I can't.   Those who can perhaps should.

Not everything is shown on MM.  There are some models here who are worth being paid.  They are not in the forums.

Leonard Gee Photography wrote:
basically you have left out:

0. approach model or agency and provide full information about the session and all requirements

when you approach a model you tell them EVERYTHING in advance. there will be no surprises. NOTHING is "suddenly different". plain and simple. when contacting a model the basic facts:

1. How will the images be used?
2. What will they receive in compensation?
3. What must they bring and what condition do you need hair, skin, nails & etc.
4. What do they need to do when they arrive?
5. What date & time and about how long will it take?
6. Do they bring a voucher or do they need to sign a release?

everything is known before they even agree to booking the job. properly choosing and giving the right information to a model is - here it comes - the professional photographer's job.

I've taken the snarky comments in stride because I myself was being snarky but when you say "I have basically left out" you make assumptions that just aren't true. We'll just say you're trying to be helpful.

But lemme tell you, treating amateur models the same as an experienced, professional model just doesn't work.

There really are many factors, though. The Young and Stupid are just that, young and stupid. Also, my studio is outside a large metropolitan area and even the professionals can be too lazy to bother and drive out 35 miles.

It's just amazing that you offer to pay for good, honest, clean work and no one wants to show up.

The one thing I haven't tried is to ask for open leg nudes, go on a date afterwards, and do it for TFP. Does that work? :p

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I never want to give the impression that MM isn't full of models who are beautiful and many are worth paying.   Personally I can't pay them for pretty pictures without a client or way to recoup my money.   This limits who I get to shoot for sure but is my financial reality.

There are models in the industry that do free shoots to update their books. I hate that a lot of MM models try to charge for non commercial jobs and I hate it even more when photographers actually pay them. The photos aren't going to be used and most likely not going to get you jobs.

WisconsinArt wrote:

I've taken the snarky comments in stride because I myself was being snarky but when you say "I have basically left out" you make assumptions that just aren't true. We'll just say you're trying to be helpful.

But lemme tell you, treating amateur models the same as an experienced, professional model just doesn't work.

There really are many factors, though. The Young and Stupid are just that, young and stupid. Also, my studio is outside a large metropolitan area and even the professionals can be too lazy to bother and drive out 35 miles.

It's just amazing that you offer to pay for good, honest, clean work and no one wants to show up.

The one thing I haven't tried is to ask for open leg nudes, go on a date afterwards, and do it for TFP. Does that work? :p

I'm hearing excuses.

When you're a professional, dealing with professionals, they show up, you pay them, they work, they sign your release and they leave.  No afterparty.

When you're not a professional (like me) you set up a shoot, they show up, you don't pay them, you don't make them sign any crazy paperwork, you sometimes hang out afterwards, and then you get them the trade images in a reasonable time.  I've had models come from much further than 35 miles to a shoot.  It's not the distance.  It's the motivation for the model to show up.  If it's not going to be for amazing images, it had better be for the right amount of rent/food/makeup/party money.

WisconsinArt wrote:
This is how you become a model:

1. Make arrangements to do a shoot
2. Show up for the shoot, preferably on time
3. Get your picture taken a bunch of times
4. Take the money the photographer pays you
5. Sign the model release form
6. Hang out with the hip and cool people at the post-shoot party

That's all there is to it. I've never had a problem with a model doing #4. It seems #2 and #5 are issues. Amateur models also seem shocked when #6 is not actually true.

I think the easiest solution for #2 is to just watch for red flags and pick from models who are least likely to flake to begin with. I've written some tips on that here. As for #5, the best advice I can offer you from a model perspective is to send the release for them to look over in advance. The couple of times I've had a concern, it wasn't a deal breaker, but it was something I wouldn't have been comfortable signing without talking it over. Doing that in advance would help by at least weeding out the models who won't agree to your release.

The point of this is it seems amateurs think that modeling is being sexy, beautiful, and getting a lot of attention. When I approach models for doing commercial work, it suddenly becomes WORK. It's no longer about living a life of being a Look-At-Me-Hottie.

Sorry. Being a model is WORK. Modeling is not being an Attention Whore where you post a few selfies of you in the mirror with your cell phone wearing a bra and panties so guys will tell you how beautiful you are.

If you want to be a MODEL, then show up and do the WORK.

It is work. But for some of us, it's work we enjoy. I don't shoot commercial work thus far (not for lack of interest, but mostly because my look isn't desirable for it in my area), but I have shot plenty of work that was for projects that wouldn't be something I could share on my social media, etc (or at least not immediately). And in many of the cases that I was being paid, I never saw any photos anyway. I don't really appreciate the commentary about "attention whore" stuff, but I'm not going to debate that with you. I don't think it's really relevant to what I'm trying to say. I do think it's possible for a model to maintain a social media presence and a fan base and still be a serious, hard-working model.

Yes, this is yet another rant about the frustration of getting a model to actually do a shoot. You email them with your ideas of what you want to do and they're all excited but then they balk because it's commercial WORK or they don't want to sign a release form because it's suddenly different when their likeness is being "used."

Even when it's clothes-on, no wild animals or race cars with no seat belts, they just can't handle the idea of "using" their pictures for regular white bread commercial purposes.

I really don't understand why models would balk at paying commercial work. I could see a concern at their likeness being used if they can't be sure what it will be used for or if it might used for negative campaigns and such as that might threaten their professional or personal lives. Other than that, I don't know what the issue could be.

ETA: Since this topic is on how to be a model, I'll share the New Model Guide portion of my website, too.

MoRina wrote:
Oh my gosh.. I can see where you went wrong... you neglected to read "The Amateur Photographer's Guide on How to Be a Photographer."

Seems to me the original post is the "Photographer's Guide on How to Be a Model". Doesn't appear to be anything in this that an actual working model might have a problem doing.

Victoria Elle wrote:
Stop hiring amateur models for commercial projects.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

Not everything is shown on MM.  There are some models here who are worth being paid.  They are not in the forums.

I am always paid satisfactorily for my amateur modeling as are many other models I know that I have seen post in the forums. You may not think we are worth it but the amateur photographers we model for do.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
Not everything is shown on MM.  There are some models here who are worth being paid.  They are not in the forums.

Speak for yourself.
I made $400 for a simple park shoot yesterday for a few hours.

The forums are amusing.
Lot of people projecting.

Jules NYC wrote:

Speak for yourself.
I made $400 for a simple park shoot yesterday for a few hours.

The forums are amusing.
Lot of people projecting.

Good for you!

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
Good for you!

Yes indeed.
It's a regular gig (one of them).

Isis22 wrote:
The "Young" and the "Stupid" don't come to the forums to be enlightened so I am afraid you are just wasting your time.

True dat.

Isis22 wrote:
The "Young" and the "Stupid" don't come to the forums to be enlightened so I am afraid you are just wasting your time.

True.

WisconsinArt wrote:
...
But lemme tell you, treating amateur models the same as an experienced, professional model just doesn't work.

...

This is not a surprise right?

Not every novice is a goober either but I totally get that you needed to vent.

Jen