VeraBees wrote:
Why have I had such bad luck over the years?
I'll try to make this brief.

I was always told my whole life I should be a model.  at 12 or 13 my mother and I did not know any better and we fell for one of those model search scams.  Scarred from being tricked I did not pursue modeling again until I was scouted by a local fashion designer at my job working as a hostess when I was 17.  He put me in his fashion show and that was my first modeling experience.  at 18 I moved to Austin TX for college and started trying to model the very day I got there.  I think thats when I first joined MM too.  I did a lot of cool things in austin like fashion shows (that paid a lot of $$) which I just loved doing.  However, I also did a lot of sketchy photo shoots. I was young and thought I should just take every opportunity no matter what it was. I shot in a lot of sketchy locations with sketchy people.  That is what made me want to join an agency.  In Houston where I am from there is a somewhat reputable agency.  I went in thinking they would just hire me because I just naturally look like the model type. I couldn't think of any reason they wouldn't.  The lady I met with showered me with compliments and even took me around the office to show me off to her co workers.  She took some polaroids of me.  I ended up never getting a call back.  I went back to Austin and did more modeling.  The one thing I ended up doing which I am proud of is when I was in Vogue Italia.  I took my headshot from Vogue Italia as well as some more professional pictures to put a nice resume together and I went back to the same modeling agency in Houston.  They made me walk for them and asked to keep some of my pictures.  Still no call back.  I went back to Austin and entered a modeling contest.  If you were one of the winners you got to join their modeling agency.  There are about 3 stages that you need to pass.  when I arrived to the first stage, I looked around at my competition and I thought I would be guaranteed a spot.  I only saw one other girl who looked tall and skinny and model like.  She actually came and sat by me and we stayed with each other the whole night because we were so similar to each other and I guess she thought I was going to make it too so she should network with me.  I did not even make it past that round.  a photographer from the event contacted me and told me that I had the most high fashion model look in the competition except the people in charge of the event discriminate against skinny models.  He said it is a problem that he sees at that event every year.  I get that models with eating disorders are a problem in the fashion industry and a lot of people don't want to encourage girls to starve themselves to be skinny BUT i am just naturally like this.  I eat everything.  I thought that was the whole point of trying to pursue modeling.  I am just born looking like this so why not? 
Why have I had such bad luck?
This is why I just quit modeling all together for 3 years and I am 23 now trying to get back into it.  I a going to do things my way this time and just build a personal brand on instagram or something.  My only concern is how do I avoid doing anything sketchy because I have been told that MM is just a craigslist for models.  I have been kidnapped before (not while modeling) and I get creeped out easily.  I am at the point where I only shoot with female photographers unless the male photographers credentials are really good and he allows me to bring a male friend with me.
any advice? and is 23 too old now for model standards?

Because of this photographers may not want to work with you.
I myself would be reluctant to work with you.

WisconsinArt wrote:
Modeling is the same as being a photographer in that you are your own boss, you set your own limits, and you decide who you want to work with.

Be professional and you'll find your way. There will be disappointments but those come no matter what you do.

Eat right, exercise, stay off drugs and you can model for decades.

She wants to be an Agency Model and You are telling her this ?

WisconsinArt wrote:
Modeling is the same as being a photographer in that you are your own boss, you set your own limits, and you decide who you want to work with.

Be professional and you'll find your way. There will be disappointments but those come no matter what you do.

Eat right, exercise, stay off drugs and you can model for decades.

This makes little sense for a model focused on trying to be signed.   OP, Houston has a very limited fashion market hence why there are so few agencies.   If you want to do fashion or even commercial ignore advice like this member has offered.   You have several problems.   Location being one but time isn't your friend.   Many agencies who book fashion want models 16 to 21.   This is because development takes a bit of time.   I see several red flags in your comments.   There simply aren't that many female shooters around.   Requiring escorts may limit you as will your seeming fear of men.   Instagram can be a real boost.   Keep in mind that good shooters have plenty of models to work with.   They won't stand for any drama.   

Of note is you are really pretty.   If I were a thin, tall, 23 year old model who wanted to get signed or pursue fashion modeling I'd go to Miami or even NY.   Find friends you can stay with.   Go to agency open calls.   Please be aware you aren't likely to be able to bring friends.   The key is what do you REALLY want to do.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I myself would be reluctant to work with you.

I would entirely pass on working with you based off this statement on your profile: "I am not interested in any sketchy photo shoots in a back alley." I do urge you to remove it.
I go where there is interesting light and frequently, the light in alleyways yield the results I am after. The 4th image in my portfolio is an example of work I have shot in an alley. It has been on an agency board.
You have experienced a kidnapping and your caution is highly understandable.
I recommend shooting with photographers who have solid work and who have references that you have thoroughly checked. Aim to put together a book that agencies want to see.
All the best to you.

Garry k wrote:

She wants to be an Agency Model and You are telling her this ?

I've heard virtually no success stories going with an agency.

WisconsinArt wrote:

I've heard virtually no success stories going with an agency.

lol

I know of many

VeraBees wrote:
Why have I had such bad luck over the years?
I'll try to make this brief.

I was always told my whole life I should be a model.  at 12 or 13 my mother and I did not know any better and we fell for one of those model search scams.  Scarred from being tricked I did not pursue modeling again until I was scouted by a local fashion designer at my job working as a hostess when I was 17.  He put me in his fashion show and that was my first modeling experience.  at 18 I moved to Austin TX for college and started trying to model the very day I got there.  I think thats when I first joined MM too.  I did a lot of cool things in austin like fashion shows (that paid a lot of $$) which I just loved doing.  However, I also did a lot of sketchy photo shoots. I was young and thought I should just take every opportunity no matter what it was. I shot in a lot of sketchy locations with sketchy people.  That is what made me want to join an agency.  In Houston where I am from there is a somewhat reputable agency.  I went in thinking they would just hire me because I just naturally look like the model type. I couldn't think of any reason they wouldn't.  The lady I met with showered me with compliments and even took me around the office to show me off to her co workers.  She took some polaroids of me.  I ended up never getting a call back.  I went back to Austin and did more modeling.  The one thing I ended up doing which I am proud of is when I was in Vogue Italia.  I took my headshot from Vogue Italia as well as some more professional pictures to put a nice resume together and I went back to the same modeling agency in Houston.  They made me walk for them and asked to keep some of my pictures.  Still no call back.  I went back to Austin and entered a modeling contest.  If you were one of the winners you got to join their modeling agency.  There are about 3 stages that you need to pass.  when I arrived to the first stage, I looked around at my competition and I thought I would be guaranteed a spot.  I only saw one other girl who looked tall and skinny and model like.  She actually came and sat by me and we stayed with each other the whole night because we were so similar to each other and I guess she thought I was going to make it too so she should network with me.  I did not even make it past that round.  a photographer from the event contacted me and told me that I had the most high fashion model look in the competition except the people in charge of the event discriminate against skinny models.  He said it is a problem that he sees at that event every year.  I get that models with eating disorders are a problem in the fashion industry and a lot of people don't want to encourage girls to starve themselves to be skinny BUT i am just naturally like this.  I eat everything.  I thought that was the whole point of trying to pursue modeling.  I am just born looking like this so why not? 
Why have I had such bad luck?






This is why I just quit modeling all together for 3 years and I am 23 now trying to get back into it.  I a going to do things my way this time and just build a personal brand on instagram or something.  My only concern is how do I avoid doing anything sketchy because I have been told that MM is just a craigslist for models.  I have been kidnapped before (not while modeling) and I get creeped out easily.  I am at the point where I only shoot with female photographers unless the male photographers credentials are really good and he allows me to bring a male friend with me.
any advice? and is 23 too old now for model standards?

Why do you assume female photographers are less sketchy then males.  I find that bias on your part disturbing.

If you properly vetted photographers you would be less likely to run into problems.  Don't judge books by their covers judge them by facts.

goofus  wrote:
when photographers reach out to you from here.. and you are interested in their work... contact a few of the models from their portfolio and ask them about him

if he doesn't have any MM models in his portfolio...NEXT!

also..bring someone if you feel you need to - they can hang out outside..or so someplace (a bar???) after checking the guy out first

So you can visually tell who a creep and pervert by looking at them from a distance? That's wrong headed

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Why do you assume female photographers are less sketchy then males.  I find that bias on your part disturbing.

If you properly vetted photographers you would be less likely to run into problems.  Don't judge books by their covers judge them by facts.

Before You go off on this young lady any more ...

Consider that ( according to this artilcle ) 96 per cent of Americas approx 400, 000 estimated Registered Sex Offenders - are Male

http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html

Garry k wrote:

lol

I know of many

Versus how many didn't make it?

OP, what these geniuses aren't telling you is having the "look" doesn't get you into an agency. You also need a certain personality, attitude, and maturity.

An analogy would be child actors. Your average 8 year old is a frikken mess. But child actors have a certain demeanor and they relate well with adults. That's why they become child actors.

If you want to work for a high-falutin' agency, you need to understand you are representing the company. How you act, how you carry yourself, those are factors into whether an agency will take you or not. Maybe in your one experience you were shut out for being too thin but the reality is that wasn't the only reason.

We can't wave a magic wand and turn you into Miss Congeniality but the reality is pretty girls are a dime a dozen so other criteria come into play.

I'm not saying you're s a slug but even when it comes to being Miss America, second place is a fantastic showing but... it's still second place.

You're competing in a tough industry and the industry has been telling you you're second place material. There are things you can do to make you a winner but do you have the time and the willingness to put in the sweat?

If you want to make money modeling, then be an independent contractor. It doesn't have to be grabbing the brass ring or nothing. You'll learn more along the way and maybe you'll figure out what it takes to get first place.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Why do you assume female photographers are less sketchy then males.  I find that bias on your part disturbing.

You are seriously asking that question? You are seriously "disturbed" by her "bias"?

Wow.

VeraBees wrote:
My only concern is how do I avoid doing anything sketchy because I have been told that MM is just a craigslist for models.

Then why are you using Model Mayhem? That doesn’t make sense, if you have such a low opinion of this resource.

VeraBees wrote:
I have been kidnapped before (not while modeling) and I get creeped out easily.

I am truly sorry you experienced this. May I make a suggestion? If you have suffered this type of violation you should seek therapy. Seriously, this should be your highest priority right now. Until you get past this you will not only be unsuccessful as a model but you are likely to have serious issues in every other area of your life.

VeraBees wrote:
I am at the point where I only shoot with female photographers unless the male photographers credentials are really good and he allows me to bring a male friend with me.

This is wholly unrealistic.  I am also a female photographer, and I know that I am part of a VERY small minority. Even smaller is the group of female photographers who do this particular genre of photography. You are setting yourself up for frustration, if not outright failure. See my previous comment about getting therapy.

Garry k wrote:
Before You go off on this young lady any more ...

Consider that ( according to this artilcle ) 96 per cent of Americas approx 400, 000 estimated Registered Sex Offenders - are Male

http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html

This is an unsupported generalization. Unless those 96% are also photographers then all you’re doing is adding to her stress and unfairly characterizing this profession. There is neither correlation nor causation to make the link to her fear of male photographers.

WisconsinArt wrote:

Versus how many didn't make it?

OP, what these geniuses aren't telling you is having the "look" doesn't get you into an agency. You also need a certain personality, attitude, and maturity.

An analogy would be child actors. Your average 8 year old is a frikken mess. But child actors have a certain demeanor and they relate well with adults. That's why they become child actors.

If you want to work for a high-falutin' agency, you need to understand you are representing the company. How you act, how you carry yourself, those are factors into whether an agency will take you or not. Maybe in your one experience you were shut out for being too thin but the reality is that wasn't the only reason.

We can't wave a magic wand and turn you into Miss Congeniality but the reality is pretty girls are a dime a dozen so other criteria come into play.

I'm not saying you're s a slug but even when it comes to being Miss America, second place is a fantastic showing but... it's still second place.

You're competing in a tough industry and the industry has been telling you you're second place material. There are things you can do to make you a winner but do you have the time and the willingness to put in the sweat?

If you want to make money modeling, then be an independent contractor. It doesn't have to be grabbing the brass ring or nothing. You'll learn more along the way and maybe you'll figure out what it takes to get first place.

Let me guess - You are a card carrying member of the Travelling Art Model of the Month Club and that is the extent of you knowledge regarding modelling

Michelle Genevieve wrote:

VeraBees wrote:
My only concern is how do I avoid doing anything sketchy because I have been told that MM is just a craigslist for models.

Then why are you using Model Mayhem? That doesn’t make sense, if you have such a low opinion of this resource.


I am truly sorry you experienced this. May I make a suggestion? If you have suffered this type of violation you should seek therapy. Seriously, this should be your highest priority right now. Until you get past this you will not only be unsuccessful as a model but you are likely to have serious issues in every other area of your life.


This is wholly unrealistic.  I am also a female photographer, and I know that I am part of a VERY small minority. Even smaller is the group of female photographers who do this particular genre of photography. You are setting yourself up for frustration, if not outright failure. See my previous comment about getting therapy.


This is an unsupported generalization. Unless those 96% are also photographers then all you’re doing is adding to her stress and unfairly characterizing this profession. There is neither correlation nor causation to make the link to her fear of male photographers.

,,,,,
R you serious ?

Garry k wrote:
,,,,,
R you serious ?

Yes, I R.

You're implying there is a linear correlation that 96% of any group are either males (not true) or likely to be sex offenders, or both. In any event, although it may be true that 96% of sex offenders are male how does this intersect with the photography community? How does this intersect with the group of male photographers who we have no reason to believe are sex offenders?

This assumes that being male somehow makes one hard wired to be a sex offender.

Are you really going to come up on this site and tell your fellow photographers that 96% of them are also sex offenders?

Michelle Genevieve wrote:

Yes, I R.

You're implying there is a linear correlation that 96% of ALL groups are either males (not true) or likely to be sex offenders, or both. Are you really going to come up on this site and tell your fellow photographers that 96% of them are also sex offenders?

No I am simply implying that it is safer for a female model to work with a female photographer than to work with a male one

and what is your response to that?

Garry k wrote:
No I am simply implying that it is safer for a female model to work with a female photographer than to work with a male one

and what is your response to that?

Again, an unsupported generality.

Statistically speaking any random male from the general population is more likely (but definitely not 96% of the general pop) to be a sex offender than a female, but that likelihood drops considerably when you filter for other factors such as age, education, socioeconomic status, location, etc. The ratio plummets to an extremely low percentage when you are comparing the general population with these filters against a specifically defined group of convicted sex offenders.

Here’s an analogy - 80.6% of members of congress are male (as of 2015), and 100% of the male members of congress are politicians. Now compare that percentage of male politicians to any other group and you’ll understand that this percentage is meaningless in any other context and cannot be extrapolated to a group without identical characteristics.

VeraBees wrote:
I think it is too risky to go meet a guy with a camera in some remote location and if he has a problem with me bringing an escort that is even more of a red flag for me.  I am just trying to be careful on this website specifically.  I am not trying to offend anyone.

I do not think that you are offending anyone, but you are also not doing yourself any favours with some of the things that you have written.

It sounds like you have had more than your share of trouble with photographers in the past, but there could be a number of explanations ranging from unusually bad luck to misunderstandings to failure to do homework beforehand.

I have reached a point where I am very reluctant to work with models who demand an escort and the principal reason is that I have found that such models are far more likely to be poor models.  There have been a few exceptions, but it comes down to playing the odds.

Michelle Genevieve wrote:

Again, an unsupported generality.

Statistically speaking any random male from the general population is more likely to be a sex offender than a female, but that likelihood drops considerably when you filter for other factors such as age, education, socioeconomic status, location, etc. The ratio plummets to an extremely low percentage when you are comparing the general population with these filters against a specifically defined group of convicted sex offenders.

Here’s an analogy - 80.6% of members of congress are male (as of 2015), and 100% of the male members of congress are politicians. Now compare that percentage of male politicians to any other group and you’ll understand that this percentage is meaningless in any other context and cannot be extrapolated to a group without identical characteristics.

Oh spare me , You are not doing your gender any favors with this even though you are academically correct

Garry k wrote:
Oh spare me , You are not doing your gender any favors with this even though you are academically correct

You've been owned.

Now go back and retake your last statistics course.

And I certainly don't mind sticking up for all the decent guys on this site who are not sex offenders.

Garry k wrote:
Maybe You should just go ahead and tell the OP that it is no safer or riskier to work with a female photographer than a male one ?

Let it go, dude! You're not gonna get any feminist cookies with your broke-ass logic.

Michelle Genevieve wrote:
Are you really going to come up on this site and tell your fellow photographers that 96% of them are also sex offenders?

You are completely misinterpreting this statistic.

It is NOT saying that 96% of the male photographers on this site are sex offenders. That would be ridiculous.

It is highly unlikely that she will run into a sex offender here.

But if she does run into a sex offender (here or anywhere), it's probably true that it's 24x more likely to be a man than a woman.

Michelle Genevieve wrote:

You've been owned.

Now go back and retake your last statistics course.

And my response is get down from your ivory tower of academia and back to the real world and the real risks that female models face

and i am not taking any more Stats courses ( 2 wuz enough for me in Uni )

Garry k wrote:

And my response is get down from your ivory tower of academia and back to the real world and the real risks that female models face

and i am not taking any more Stats courses ( 2 wuz enough for me in Uni )

There is no way you took 2 stats courses.

crx studios wrote:
You are completely misinterpreting this statistic.

I'm not. I'm not even regarding it as valid except in the context of percentage of convicted sex offenders. I'm just saying that it's an apples and oranges comparison and does not apply from one specific group to another.

crx studios wrote:
But if she does run into a sex offender (here or anywhere), it's probably true that it's 24x more likely to be a man than a woman.

Dunno if the figure is 24X, but yeah, sure! More likely to be a man.

Michelle Genevieve wrote:
There is no way you took 2 stats courses.

Well I did ( as part of the degree in Social Work that i earned and used to gain my 26 year career ( now retired ) working as a Social Worker with Children and Youth ( now retired )

And what do you say for yourself ?

or rather

Why cant you just come out and simply tell the OP that ( from your persective ) it is no riskier to work with a male photogrpaher than a male one

If you cannot do that - I am not sure why you would even wish to continue participating in this discussion

Garry k wrote:
Well I did ( as part of the degree in Social Work that i earned and used to gain my 26 year career ( now retired ) working as a Social Worker with Children and Youth ( now retired )

And what do you say for yourself ?

or rather

Why cant you just come out and simply tell the OP that ( from your persective ) it is no riskier to work with a male photogrpaher than a male one

If you cannot do that - I am not sure why you would even wish to continue participating in this discussion

Dude, let it go!

Anyone with a brain knows that more sex offenders are male. We get it! Statistically, that would mean greater risk when only looking at raw numbers. But you're comparing one specific population of convicted sex offenders against another specific population of non offenders.

If you really were a social worker you'd know this was not a valid data analysis.

Why are you being such fear monger?

Michelle Genevieve wrote:
Dude, let it go!

Anyone with a brain knows that more sex offenders are male. We get it! Statistically, that would mean greater risk when only looking at raw numbers. But you're comparing one specific population of convicted sex offenders against another specific population of non offenders.

If you really were a social worker you'd know this was not a valid data analysis.

Why are you being such fear monger?

Sadly now you have resorted to name calling - ( edit  ) which in my view means you have lost the debate

I am just saying that i understand where the OP is coming from .

that is all there is to it

( edit  ) but I am off to see a movie so I am out of this discussion

Garry k wrote:
but I am off to see a movie so I am out of this discussion

buh-bye!

Michelle Genevieve wrote:
I'm not. I'm not even regarding it as valid except in the context of percentage of convicted sex offenders. I'm just saying that it's an apples and oranges comparison and does not apply from one specific group to another.

Are you trying to say that while that may be true across the board, the breakdown of sexual assaults by sex of the perpetrator, with regard to photographers on MM, may be completely different?

Are you suggesting, for example, that on very the rare occasion that there is a sexual assault on a female model by an MM photographer, it could be just as likely that the perpetrator will be a female photographer as opposed to a male photographer?

crx studios wrote:
Are you trying to say that while that may be true across the board, the breakdown of sexual assaults by sex of the perpetrator, with regard to photographers on MM, may be completely different?

Yes, exactly! First, the 96% figure (which I accept as valid) applies to convicted sex offenders. People in jail and counted as male vice female for sex crimes. That number is not likely to be true across the board.

Again, an analogy. Let’s say that most (but not all) photographers on MM own their cameras. The others borrow or rent. Let’s say that the percentage of photographers who own their cameras is 96%.

Now let’s compare that figure to the percentage of ALL people, photographers as well as non-photographers, who take pictures with any type of image capturing device. What is the percentage of people who own their image capturing device?

Who knows? And why would it matter, if our area of interest is in dealing with competent photographers using professional or prosumer equipment?

You simply cannot compare one group to another unless they have identical characteristics. The only thing we can legitimately say is that more people who take pictures own their camera than those who don’t, just as we can only agree that sex offenders are more likely to be male.

It is quite possible that the percentage of sex offenders in the population of photographers is even lower than it is in the general population, and that figure is almost certain to be lower than it is for the incarcerated population of convicted sex offenders. But we have no way of knowing from just one specific statistic.

crx studios wrote:
Are you suggesting, for example, that on very the rare occasion that there is a sexual assault on a female model by an MM photographer, it could be just as likely that the perpetrator will be a female photographer as opposed to a male photographer?

Not at all. Why would anyone come to that conclusion? We already know that sex offenders are more likely to be male. But the discussion kicked off when Garry k chided Risen Phoenix Photo for being offended when VeraBees unfairly characterized male photographers as being more sketchy than females.

The original assertion had to do with a bias toward male photographers as being more likely to be sketchy. Throwing in a comparison of the general population of non-offending photographers to convicted sex offenders was just insulting to all you decent guys who are just trying to practice your craft without being unfairly characterized as being "sketchy".

Michelle Genevieve wrote:

Again, an unsupported generality.

Statistically speaking any random male from the general population is more likely (but definitely not 96% of the general pop) to be a sex offender than a female, but that likelihood drops considerably when you filter for other factors such as age, education, socioeconomic status, location, etc. The ratio plummets to an extremely low percentage when you are comparing the general population with these filters against a specifically defined group of convicted sex offenders.

Here’s an analogy - 80.6% of members of congress are male (as of 2015), and 100% of the male members of congress are politicians. Now compare that percentage of male politicians to any other group and you’ll understand that this percentage is meaningless in any other context and cannot be extrapolated to a group without identical characteristics.

So, if we were to accept that 90 something percent of the population are likely to be sex offenders (NOT!), and that is being applied to photographers here, then it also needs to apply to her male "escort", who also leaves with her after the shoot, with who knows what result! Who is escorting the escort then?